A Change of Mind featuring Danny Gokey and Dr. Caroline Leaf

Jul 14

Written By

American Idol's Danny Gokey and communication pathologist Dr. Caroline Leaf dig in deep to the roots of depression, and how utilizing the power of the mind can help. Don't miss a single episode of Dinner Conversations—subscribe below!

Transcript

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Mark: I remember several years ago when I was watching American Idol and Danny Gokey came on there and I thought, boy, he's got that kind of voice I've heard in church, that airy, soulful.

Andrew: Oh, yeah.

Mark: And he started doing good. Then I found out he was a youth director, and then I heard his story about his wife passing away. And oh, what a story he has. Even in the midst of doing so good in his life journey, he faced depression.

Andrew: Yeah, he sure did, some really heavy bouts of depression and cycles of depression. So he's here to talk about that. I think depression is something, something that I've struggled with before, it's a very relatable conversation in today's time and place and culture, and Danny speaks about it not only eloquently but he speaks about it from the heart and from a spiritual perspective. So, we are thrilled to have Danny Gokey on today.

Mark: And there's one seat left at the table, and it's yours. So let's join the conversation.

Mark: So, what else?

Andrew: Yeah, it's a brother. Well, I think for our audience, this may seem redundant, but a little introduction always helps. So I wanna go back even to you were originally a worship pastor, right?

Mark: That's what I heard.

Danny: Yes. I started, I actually started in a youth group.

Andrew: OK, as a youth minister?

Danny: No, no, no. I wasn't a youth pastor then, but all the— Let's go way back.

Andrew: OK.

Danny: My parents forced me to sing. Let's just be honest. I didn't want to do it, but they made

Andrew: Really? At church?

Danny: I mean, did your parents do that to you? Or no?

Mark: No.

Danny: OK, my parents had a dream that I did not share with them.

Andrew: No one forced him to sing.

Mark: Hush, hush.

Danny: You're like, no, no, no, that's not your gift. What you do here, no, I'm--

Mark: I'm trying to hear him.

Andrew: I can't laugh with my mouth full.

Mark: You're even on my deaf side and you're annoying. OK, so, what?

Danny: Well, my parents had a dream that we'd sing as a family. I did not share that dream with them, but I kinda like the fact that they made me do it anyways, 'cause kids don't know any better. You know, if you get in front of a Nintendo—that's what we played back in the day, kids. They're like, what is that? Mom, what is he talking about? I'd rather do that or play outside. And it just progressively— You could see the hand of God just kinda guide me along the way and people kept coming into my life, like a youth pastor, and he would try to get me to sing too. I did my first solo in church at 13-years-old.

“You could see the hand of God just kinda guide me along the way and people kept coming into my life.”

— Danny Gokey

Andrew: What was it?

Danny: Shaking in my boots. It was a song — I'm gonna date myself — "Holy of Holies" by Clay Crosse.

Andrew: That's awesome.

Mark: “Holy of Holies”?

Danny: Yeah, do you remember that song?

Mark: And you're gonna date yourself?

Andrew: I met Clay.

Danny: Am I not dating myself?

Mark: Oh my gosh. Clay Crosse seems like yesterday to me.

Andrew: Did you tour with him?

Mark: I went to Haiti with him one time.

Danny: Really?

Andrew: He means Haiti.

Mark: Haiti. So, um—

Danny: Then I started in church as a worship leader.

Mark: OK, when did you start liking it? Singing.

Danny: I think I liked it. I didn't like the pressure of it being on stage.

Andrew: Performance?

Danny: Yeah, performance was a little scary to me. And then I went to a church at about 19-years-old, 20-years-old, and the pastor literally, like one Sunday I was singing on worship team. Pretend this is a microphone. He's like take it, just take it. And I'm like no, no, and I'm like I will not take it and literally, if the crowd's that way, I was leading worship this way. Just kinda making eye contact with the band, like, is anyone out there looking. Do they care?

Andrew: Lord, I lift your name on high.

Mark: Are you kidding me?

Danny: I was scared to death.

Andrew: So when did that come? Yeah, when did you come into your own skin?

Danny: Well, I started embracing it and realizing God had a plan for it. And so that turned into basically worship leading between two churches, one pastor had two locations, and then the rest is history. Ended up just giving my life over to that ministry. I felt like the Lord would say don't pursue a career, lay down your gift and build My kingdom and I'll build your dream basically. That's not like verbatim, but I felt like the Lord really impressed on my heart, if you do, if you take care of what I put in front of you, I'll take care of what I've called you to do. I think for me, it's easy to get stuck in that trying to push, push, push, but God was laying the groundwork in my life to, it's interesting, it’s total counterculture, it's kingdom, seek first the kingdom and all these things will be added to you. Right? And that's really the approach that God told me to do, and I gotta tell you, it wasn't just like oh, yes, I'm gonna do it God's way and it's just gonna be bliss. There was a lot of questions in there. There was a lot of doubt. But look what the Lord has done. I look back and I see what God has done.

“I felt like the Lord really impressed on my heart, if you do, if you take care of what I put in front of you, I’ll take care of what I’ve called you to do.”

— Danny Gokey

Andrew: I mean, were you nervous when you auditioned? If you say you didn't love performance and then you go audition for Idol, that's like a death sentence.

Danny: Well, I got better. Well, here's the thing, when you're a worship leader, you can sing, you know, you're trying to get the crowd to focus upward

Andrew: Right, right.

Danny: This was brand new. So, I was good at learning how to focus people upward, towards the King, 'cause you just become a facilitator of what's happening in the moment. American Idol and singing and performing on stage was different because now you have to show up and you have to engage people. You can't just kinda flip 'em upwards, you know, 'cause most people won't understand that.

Mark: Right.

Andrew: Sure. They're looking at you.

Danny: Yeah, and they're like why are you telling me to look and worship a God, I don't know this God. It's a TV show that's just for anyone who wanted to come watch.

Mark: So it was not your element?

Danny: It wasn't, but I love how God, God saw something in me that I didn't see in myself, again.

Mark: And so did America. I mean, evidently. Isn't that interesting how we view ourselves as opposed to even how other, not just God, but others. I remember seeing you on American Idol, thinking well, of course he's a worship pastor. You had all this confidence it seemed to me.

Danny: Wow.

Mark: And this incredible instrument, full of air, which I love and I wish I had.

Andrew: And all that aspiration.

Danny: Thank you.

Mark: Yeah.

Andrew: Yeah.

Danny: Well, it's funny that you say that. I can only, there was just a grace on my life, because I'd be shaking in my boots. Let me give you an example. I remember when it would be my turn to sing, and they had you in this green room until it was your turn. You'd come upstage. The guy who's counting down from the commercial to live hands you the mic, says, "Are you ready?” And then it's like five, four, and in my head, I cannot remember the first lyric to my song. I don't even know what the first— In my mind I'm going through my head. I'm quoting lyrics.

Andrew: Right, right.

Mark: Oh, I've done that.

Danny: Just going through it.

Mark: Oh, yes.

Danny: And I wanna tell you, by the grace of God—

Mark: But not in front of 16 million people.

Danny: No, it was 30 million people.

Mark: 30 million.

Danny: It was back in the day when they had a lot of viewers. And just when the song intro started, I still don't know, I still don't know. And like tape going through a cassette player, it was just in my brain, and it would start going out. So, that whole confidence thing, that was Jesus. That wasn't me.

Andrew: You started learning to trust that too probably.

Danny: Mm hm. Can we talk with our mouth full?

Andrew: Oh, yeah.

Mark: Yeah, sure. Dinner conversation.

Danny: Sweet.

Andrew: OK. So you think about OK, so you earn this, or are awarded really, this kind of huge platform and spotlight, release a country record, then you start releasing kind of more of your story through a book, and then releasing records, and really I would say where kinda things started to take hold and anchor was when Christian music, at least when the message of the songs started to reflect your spirituality.

Danny: And let me address that because I think, it throws a little bit of confusion to people when you're like, OK, so you went country, then you went over here. What happened? Something was birthed inside of me in American Idol, and what was birthed inside of me was that I saw that there were people who would never step foot into a church gravitate, you know, to me and the other artists, and became fans of people who, whether they're Christian or not. But then even greater impact was I saw people who would never step in front of a church were writing me letters and contacting on social media saying, "I've given my life to God. I know you're a Christian. I walked away from God, or actually I've never followed God in my life, but I see something different in you.” For so long, when I was growing up in church, I just expected people to come through our door.

Andrew: Sure.

Danny: And I expected us, oh, let's just go bring people to church.

Mark: Right.

Danny: God expanded my vision and I started seeing that, wait, we've been waiting for them to come to us. Why don't we go to them? And so that's where that vision was born. And I specifically took— I didn't know what I was gonna do after the show, but I didn't want to exclude people. And there's an immediate exclusion when you jump into Christian music, or that's how people perceive it.

Andrew: Right.

Danny: And unfortunately, that's a wrong perception of who I am, that you would just think, oh, I'm over here, and now you can't listen to my music. And I have an issue with that because didn't Jesus say that go into all the world and teach the gospel? And so if we're to fulfill that, we must start thinking outside of comfortability and thinking outside the box. So I signed a country deal. No one expected it. Even I didn't expect it.

Mark: And how'd that go?

Danny: Well, God knew my heart.

Andrew: There was some level of success.

Mark: He what? God what?

Danny: God knew my heart.

Andrew: I mean, there was some level of notoriety in it.

Danny: There was some success. There was success. You guys, you gotta understand, like, I thought I was gonna be the next worship leader. I was doing worship so much that this was a total shift.

Andrew: So, OK, I wanna fast forward.

Danny: Yeah.

Andrew: Idol, great. You get into country music, great. Now, part of that is you wanna say something like you were saying, there's people who will never step in a church who might hear something, you know, from the positive message that you're singing, from knowing your life is lived as a Christian, your past as a worship pastor. But part of that you said was to reach people in dark places, and now I know part of your story is reaching people, relating to people out of dark places.

Danny: Yeah.

Andrew: Because of living with depression.

Danny: Yeah. And, living with loss. I lost my wife who I was married to, she passed away, and that was a month before the audition, which was unexpected. I just feel like I’ve been hit with a lot of terrible things—

Mark; Did the depression come from that?

Danny: Well, I had to admit to myself that it's something that I've actually dealt with and didn't realize I dealt with it. It was just a way of life, this is how you live. Like, you just get in these low moments and—

Andrew: Just emotions or productivity? Like lack of, what—

Danny: Emotions, thoughts. Different things. Stems all from thoughts and just having depressive thoughts and thoughts that I felt like I couldn't control, and I think a lot of people feel helpless with what goes through their mind. And then sometimes if you have feelings that reinforce those thoughts, you actually think they become truth. And I think that’s, I think that's where I stemmed from there. I'm an artist, so emotionally, I'm a feeler. So everything, I'm kind of absorbing the world through my senses as feeling and my brain is kinda just—

Andrew: Trying to process it all?

Danny: Yeah. Trying to process all these things. But yeah, so it started with Sophia, and it started when she passed away. It didn't start there, excuse me, that's not— It was happening beforehand, but it really hit when she passed away. Because I prayed, You didn’t do your part, I did my part and I'm not liking how this turned out and now, you know, I was talking to someone yesterday and they said that love and anger are so close to each other and that's why anger, someone who's an angry person is a person who has a high capacity to love. And when they said that, I was like, wow, that's so deep because I was just angry. I felt rejected, I felt— I want to be loved, and I wanna love so intensely. So when I feel like God didn't come through, I felt unloved, which sparks a series of emotions. And one of the things that God used in that time period was He gave me a word, it was out of the Bible, "Be still and know that I am God.” And it's funny, do you ever see a verse follow you everywhere you go? Well, this verse followed me to a point where this girl comes up to me at church. I don't know who she is. She don't know who I am. She's like shaking. She's like, "I don't wanna come off weird, but God told me to give this to you.” She hands me a piece of paper in my hand, and she likes runs off. And I'm like— I open it up, and it's exactly what God has been speaking.

Mark: Wow, be still.

Danny: Be still and know that I am God. And so, you know, I’m dealing with this depression. I just buried my wife, and I'm just reliving this thing. And so, I'm like, OK God, I'm gonna be still. I was like. Right? Like, OK, the obvious, be still. It's not working. I'm still angry, I’m mad, I'm upset, I'm hurt. But I read in the Greek and the Hebrew. Excuse me, Old Testament Hebrew, I believe, yeah. And so I read, I studied it out. Here's what that meant. It said let go, stop striving, stop fighting with God. Here's all these little definitions that the Greek words are bringing up, or the Hebrew, and then finally it said, "Cause yourself to let go.” And I saw it.

Mark: Cause yourself.

Danny: Cause yourself. I saw it. I sat at the edge of my bed, and with tears in my eyes, I pictured myself back at the place where I buried her, and the picture that came to mind was me being buried with her because I was hanging on to this situation. And literally, I pictured another hammer in this hand, and I said, "I refuse to let this destroy my future,” and I would just break my hand. That's the visual I had and tears coming down my eyes. I refuse to be a bitter person, and I would just, cause yourself, make yourself let that go, like to the point where you cut your hand off 'cause it's gonna wreck you. Get your whole body saved but let your hand, and anyways, I did this, and it's, you know— I share this often, but it's like God, like this cork was pulled out of my heart and all the negative emotions were just drained out and I could see again.

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Danny Gokey singing “Tell Your Heart To Beat Again”

Shattered
Like you've never been before
The life you knew
In a thousand pieces on the floor
And words fall short in times like these
When this world drives you to your knees
You think you're never gonna get back
To the you that used to be
So tell your heart to beat again
And close your eyes and breathe it in
Let the shadows fall away
Step into the light of grace
Yesterday is a closing door
You don't live there anymore
Say goodbye to where you've been
Tell your heart to beat again

Beginning
Just let that word wash over you
It's alright now
Love's healing hands have pulled you through
So get back up, take step one
Leave the darkness, feel the sun
'Cause your story's far from over
And your journey's just begun
Let every heartbreak
And every scar
Be a picture that reminds you
How He's carried you this far
'Cause love sees farther
Than you ever could
In this moment heaven's working
Everything for your good
So tell your heart to beat again

And close your eyes and breathe it in
Let the shadows fall away
Step into the light of grace
Yesterday is a closing door
You don't live there anymore
Say goodbye to where you've been
Tell your heart to beat again
Your heart to beat again
Beat again

Danny: What I've learned is that you have to be buried in God's Word 'cause it really, with the emotional side of me, my emotions can be, your feelings can reinforce what you're thinking, and that really becomes a stronghold. Because you feel it, you think it, everything seems to portray that, and so when you're there, it’s very difficult 'cause that stronghold will actually put you in a prison cell and limit you. I really, really have had, this year for myself especially, was like I'm getting into the Word more than I've ever been in the Word, because that will become the truth and not what I think or what I feel in the moment.

Andrew: Well, yeah. So what do you do? Well, one, do you think depression will ever be a non-factor in your life? And if not, what do we do with God if, you know, like the things that we aren't healed from completely or when things persist in our lives.

Mark: What about medicine?

Danny: As a matter of fact, this is the embarrassing part is last year I hit another wall. And so, it's funny. I hit a couple—

Andrew: Why do you say embarrassing?

Danny Well, for me it was ‘cause I felt like I was over things. So I hit, one of the main ones was in 2009, then 2013, and then 2017. I see these patterns repeating themselves, where there would be kinda crashes for me. Literally, it's a crash.

Andrew: A wall.

Mark: And what does that look like?

Danny: Well, my wife put me on medicine. So let's just go back. She put me on it, she's like, "I'm making you get on medicine.” Medicine didn't work for me. I'm telling you, I'm not saying it's not gonna work for people. What I'm saying for me, it didn't work. Maybe I didn't give it enough, a big enough try.

Andrew: It's each person's journey.

Danny: And that's what I'm saying, but for me, and this is where I discovered a book this last year by Dr. Caroline Leaf called Switch on Your Brain. And she is the one that really, I found this in my basement during my, in 2017 when I had my crash. I didn't even wanna go on stage. You understand I had, my manager had to come fly out to my shows just to like, she was so close to calling off every, every show—

Andrew: Just to motivate you to get out there.

Danny: But she was just processing each moment with me, processing, processing. But I found this book when I was cleaning my basement, called Switch on Your Brain by Dr. Caroline Leaf, and this book opened up a world of truth that I didn't realize. You see, what I did back in 2013 through my depression, when I fell in that again, was I allowed the Word of God to become my truth. What I did in 2008 when I went into depression, I allowed the Word of God to change the way I felt, and once I changed the way I felt, it changed the truth of the situation. And so what she talks about in her book was that, you know, there can become a cognitive dissonance, like you can, because your brain is constantly physically changing, if you're not making the right decisions and you're making decisions on emotions and not on truth, you're actually causing breakage in your circuitry of your brain, which doesn't allow you to move forward, so to speak. I'm probably demolishing her theories. They're not theories, they're facts, they're scientific facts.

“I allowed the Word of God to change the way I felt, and once I changed the way I felt, it changed the truth of the situation.”

— Danny Gokey

Andrew; Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Danny: But I learned, she even breaks down, one of the most fascinating things about the book is she breaks down the Parable of the Sower. And if you look at the Parable of the Sower, the Word of God comes, and what does the Word of God, it can bear fruit. But she scientifically put a study behind it and saw the science that if you apply, if you take the Word of God and you do exactly what the Parable of the Sower does, it actually creates new pathways, and when you create these new pathways, your feelings change. So for instance, when you go on the truth, even though you feel it's not the truth—

Andrew: It's this way, right.

Danny: You're actually making the right decision. It'll change your feelings, and your feelings will line up with the truth.

Andrew: One of our friends, Patsy Clairmont, always says, "Your feelings are real; they’re not always true.”

Danny: Mm.

Andrew: So like, it sounds like what Dr. Caroline Leaf is speaking about.

Danny: Yeah.

Andrew: Your feelings are present, they're real, accepting that feeling, but to interact or to react or to behave completely out of what the feeling is telling you is not necessarily—

Danny: Right, exactly.

Dr. Caroline Leaf, Cognitive Neuroscientist

Andrew: We were talking about a friend of ours now, Danny Gokey, whose been on the show and he found this book, Switch on Your Brain. He has some patterns of depression throughout his adulthood, and now he says he can even see some of the beginning of those patterns in his childhood.

Dr. Leaf: That's wonderful.

Andrew: He attributes this to changing his life—

Dr. Leaf: Oh my gosh, that's phenomenal.

Andrew: In the areas of emotional health as far as curtailing the depression by reorienting his thought life. So what I hear is very empowering 'cause I think of like, even my inner critic's at work right now. I assume you probably receive some criticism from time to time, especially from those of us who are Christians or believers or disciples of Jesus that our spirituality can actually take care of these things, when what I'm hearing is an empowerment of our actual ability in our physical, like right here right now--

Dr. Leaf: Yeah, yeah.

Andrew: To change things. Talk to me, like, how is that possible, when I think of Danny's story?

Dr. Leaf: Well, you've just asked a brilliant question. You set that up so well, so that's brilliant because essentially what— I'm gonna answer that and link it back to the prayer thing.

Andrew: OK.

Dr. Leaf: Because people, Christians, a lot of believers, and I don't think it's intentional, but I think it's the way we've been brought up, but believers, disciples as you said, whatever name you wanna call it, have a pass-the-buck mentality. And what I mean by a pass-the-buck mentality is, OK, well, I don't have to take responsibility. I just have to pray.

Andrew: OK.

Dr. Leaf: And that's not prayer, that's actually a pass-the-buck mentality. So there's an interesting paradox playing out in the church today because we're told that we are made in God's image, we're intelligent, we can think, feel, and choose and all that stuff, and we must choose right and whatever, there's consequences, but then there's this whole thing, OK, well, I just pray for the food or I'll just pray, or I’ll just lay on hands and pray when someone tells me—

Andrew: Right.

Dr. Leaf: So that's the worst thing you can do to someone when they're in a bad place, when they're depressed, when they are anxious, when they're at a place where they feel like their world's falling apart and they can't cope, to say, "I'll pray for you.” And I'm not being anti-Christian. I'm being totally in line with what the spirituality, what God presents as a loving message, and that is that you’ve got to empower someone to recognize the power inside of them because we have a love power and a sound mind, and it's very clear that God has given us freewill, so you choose to allow the Holy Spirit to enter into your life, which allows the Spirit of God or love, whatever you want to say, into your life to access that wisdom. So there's a responsibility factor in prayer, a massive responsibility. It's not a dumbing down — I'm just gonna sit here, and it's going to land on my head. It is you engaging in a very active, intellectual, persevering, hard work way. It's not a quick-fix mentality. And so there's a clear shift here, so that's the first thing. So, and then prayer will work when you are praying that someone will have the wisdom to recognize what it says in Hebrews 11:1, for example, that the substance and the evidence exists and that that substance and evidence is something that we have access to when we are using our mind. And because you use your mind to choose, because you are choosing, you have the ability to choose life and death, so we are ingrained with the ability to choose, we have a spirit of love and power, not a spirit of fear, we have a spirit of soundness. So if our core nature’s soundness, power, love, we can choose, we have all the ingredients to actually make our life work for us, not against us, and to cope within the challenges of life, and that's not taught sufficiently. That is not in the churches, I am totally convinced, 'cause I've been teaching churches now for years. So something's not working in the current environment.

“You’ve got to empower someone to recognize the power inside of them.”

— Dr. Caroline Leaf

Andrew: Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Leaf: Because the whole world is looking with, has got kind of the same pattern. So, bearing that in mind, prayer is a very active engagement with God. Then in terms of mind involvement, that means we have responsibility. So coming from a spiritual design, we have freewill, we have powerful minds. We have to take responsibility for what we're thinking about and coming from a scientific angle, which is totally spiritual because God made everything, so science is simply how it all works. It's all God's stuff, so even if I just talk science for this whole show and never mention God once, I'm still talking all about God.

Andrew: We're gonna come back to that, yeah.

Dr. Leaf: Yeah, so coming from a scientific angle, research shows that when you take responsibility for your mind, whatever you think about is going to actually change the structure of your brain. Neuroplasticity. So, we see from science as well a very interesting point that our brain is wired for love. OK? So if our brain is wired for love, our body's wired for love as well. What that means in essence is that there isn't a single structure, organ, cell, enzyme, protein, right down to subatomic level, in the human physical body and brain that is designed for anything but good decision making. So we're designed for good decision making, which aligns with the spiritual side.

Andrew: Right.

Dr. Leaf: You see where I'm going with this?

Andrew: Yeah.

Available now! Season One of Dinner Conversations on DVD

Mark: To learn more about Dinner Conversations, visit dinner-conversations.com.

Andrew: And while you're there, check out our Season One DVD with all of our past episodes and some bonus stuff, as well as check out these cool show mugs.

Mark: Yeah. So when we have our next conversation, you can have coffee with us. Let's get back to the conversation.

Mark: How long have you been on this path? Like, your wife wanted you to go on medication—

Danny: Medication, and I did.

Mark: And it didn't work?

Danny: It didn't work for me.

Mark: OK, so are you better?

Danny: Yes, and I'm actually able to catch when I'm going into a—

Mark: How does that play out?

Danny: So, if I know I'm headed to an area where I can't, I can’t, 'cause it makes you lose hope, so when hopelessness comes in, then the next thing is you just wanna go lay in bed.

Mark: OK.

Danny: And just kind of, and kinda do away with the world. And—

Andrew: Resign.

Mark: And what triggers that? Hope, you say first you lose hope. What triggers that?

Danny: I'm noticing when I'm usually going fast and I'm not taking care of myself, I start picking up, how do I say it, I start feeling things that I don't like. And these are the things that can crush. You just start feeling anger, you start feeling hopelessness, you start feeling—

Mark: Having conversations with people who aren't there.

Danny: No, this is a whole other podcast, or whatever, TV show.

Mark: That's what I do, and I get into some bad arguments with them and they're not even there. Is that another issue?

Danny: That's another issue.

Andrew: That's a medication.

Mark: Actually, my meds are low.

Danny: I believe in that medication. Now we're talking about—

Mark: Let me tell you, I believe in medication. Stay on your meds, people.

Danny: Yeah, and this is not trying to tell people to get off their meds.

Andrew: Sure.

Danny: Can we talk about that?

Andrew: Or a shame over meds.

Danny: No, but, I really do recommend reading her book because if someone's like me who says I'm not, there's something more I wanna seek out about. I don't wanna just listen to one opinion. I wanna get educated on this matter. Because a lot of people, my dad's generation, he's a Baby Boomer, my dad's generation, what the doctor says is what the truth is. And I've always tried to fight that. You're talking to someone who, there's more out there. And I know that there's people listening who believe there's more out there. But never get off your medications, you know, we're not saying that at all.

Andrew: The science of thought is called, I love the name, neuroplasticity.

Mark: Yeah, what is that?

Andrew: So that is what you’re talking about, right?

Mark: Is that just the renewing of your minds, like the Bible says?

Danny: It absolutely is. It's actually your brain is creating itself and actually forming itself, your physical brain, it's actually creating new tissue.

Mark: When you say that, I did not know this and I would have to study, your brain is regenerating itself?

Andrew: It's evolving, right?

Danny: Yeah, you're creating new tissue and new tissue, it's just regenerating, cells are regenerating.

Mark: I didn't know this. Anybody in this room know that?

Andrew: Don't they get bigger, too, or is that a?

Danny: Ears get bigger, nose gets bigger. When you get older maybe the brain gets bigger too.

Mark: One of these days they're gonna say, "Where's Mark? Over there behind that nose.” How much bigger can it get?

Andrew: I don't know, I just got—

Mark: Good Lord.

Andrew: Now, one of her quotes is, "When you direct your attention, change happens and you're not a victim of your biology any longer.” So, like--

Mark: Oh, Lord.

Andrew: When you direct your attention, change happens.

Mark: Sometimes these quotes kill me.

Andrew: I love quotes.

Mark: Say it again.

Andrew: OK, this is Dr. Caroline Leaf.

Danny: Yeah.

Mark: Oh, this isn't him?

Andrew: Now maybe if you practice the first part, when you direct your attention.

Mark: I'm listening, I'm listening.

Andrew: “Change happens and you're no longer a victim of your biology.”

Mark: Nah.

Andrew: No? We may have her on the show. Say yes.

Danny: I'm pretty sure it's like scientifically backed up.

Andrew: In case she's on, yes.

Mark: Oh, is it really?

Danny: Everything she says is actually. She's a—

Andrew: Doctor.

Mark: It doesn't change your biology, like I'm still gonna look like me no matter what my attitude is.

Andrew: No. You're not a victim of your biology.

Mark: Oh, is that what you said?

Andrew: You're not a victim of your biology.

Mark: I thought you said it'd change somehow.

Andrew: So my feelings don’t have to dictate my—

Danny: No, they don’t. And you guys, understand how powerful our thoughts are. Your thoughts are actually passed down, this book proves it, your thoughts are passed down to your third and fourth generation, how you think, and whether you're thinking, she's proved it—

Mark: OK, say that again.

Andrew: So your children are now—

Danny: Your children. Remember how the Bible says that generational, like clockwork—

Mark: Oh, yeah, yeah

Danny: He'll visit the sins, she proves scientifically, science has proved that the way you think, you automatically set your children up to a disposition. Now that means unless they change, they can break a cycle—

Andrew: Sure, sure.

Danny: They don't have to, but you're sending disposition, this is why we're seeing generations of alcohol breakthrough, generations of possibly sexual abuse. I'm not a scientist, but from what I've understood and what I've learned—

Mark: So, we need to let her discuss this.

Danny: Yes.

Andrew: I've always thought, like, from a spiritually holistic sense that whatever points to our greatest health is, what I've seen traditionally, is in line with the Spirit of God. Like—

Dr. Leaf: Exactly.

Andrew: To live in our most healthy state, whether that's physically, emotionally, mentally, seems to be a more direct reflection of how we were created, which was in the image of God.

“To live in our most healthy state...seems to be a more direct reflection of how we were created, which was in the image of God.”

— Andrew Greer

Dr. Leaf: Exactly, exactly. Exactly.

Andrew: There's a lot of, I feel like in, maybe it's evangelical circles or just messages from, especially church here in America, that self-help is a bad thing. Now, I understand, you know, I can reason through that too, if like I'm looking totally just inside of myself to me for every solution or motivation or inspiration, I'm gonna come up dry eventually. But if I'm looking inside because that's where the Spirit of God is dwelling within me to empower me, motivate me, inspire me, to, I keep thinking—

Dr. Leaf: Exactly, exactly.

Andrew: That God is like, "Where are my partners?”

Dr. Leaf: Yeah, exactly. Or use what I've given you. What you said is beautiful because basically, if you think of it, God is always, eternal, beyond space and time, and most people are living as though they have to ask God to help them with the solution now. Meanwhile, evidence of wisdom exists, so everything we need exists. God's not waiting for tomorrow to provide a solution, and God's not going to provide a solution. Now that may sound very un-Christian.

Andrew: Sure.

Dr. Leaf: God's not going to provide a solution because God has already provided the ingredients of the solutions. We have to access the ingredients of the solutions. There's many options. There's many probabilities, and we have to actively engage with that wisdom that God has placed within us to engage with the wisdom that God has given that exists in order to find the solution with God. But you have to get in that zone, and that's where the actionable items come from us as humanity, is we just think, OK, well, I'm a Christian, now I'm gonna just pray, and I'm gonna sit back and wait for God to dump this in my lap. Well, you're gonna wait forever and then think the devil's attacking you or use whatever language—

Andrew: Right, or that God's not real, or whatever.

Dr. Leaf: Whatever. Or use whatever language or something, meanwhile, you have to look to the self-help design that God has given you to step into your perfect you nature, which is also why I wrote that book called The Perfect You, which teaches these complex concepts that I'm trying to explain. Now, for people to understand, your nature is one of wisdom and power. It gets activated when we link in with the source of power, but you have to use your mind to do that. You have to choose to go there. And I always say it's ingredients. God doesn't give you the baked cakes of your solutions, He doesn't say, you know, you actually have to decide, OK, I'm gonna make that real. You know, those were made from ingredients. His design got into those little cakes over there. We'll use that as an example. We don't get that from God. We get the ingredients and the ability to choose, but we still have to select those. So all good stuff is there, in existence. What we have to do is step in and access wisdom. And this has been confirmed scientifically. You know, quantum physics is considered the most accurate of all sciences, and it’s fundamental to everything. And being fundamental to everything, it becomes a very good way of understanding the ability of humans to choose and the effect of our choices, our mind, all the stuff we're talking about that actually really shows that and demonstrates that. And it just, in terms of that concept alone, we see that humans, quantum physics can't work without the human, the ability to think, feel, and choose. So quantum physics is very much pointing towards the wisdom of humanity, to think, feel, and choose, and to access that wisdom in our universe, and that that wisdom comes from a supernatural source, which is God. So that whole sentence is coming from science. That sounds like a spiritual sentence that I've just spoken, but it comes directly from science. So we also have to give balance to the perspective. You have power, number one. You have this incredible nature that is filled with wisdom. Scientifically it's a fact. Spiritually it's a fact. You're made in God's image. You're designed to choose. We're immersed in wisdom. Oxford mathematicians have calculated the mathematics showing that we live in wisdom and that that wisdom comes from a supernatural source, which we know is God. So it's all collaborated.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Leaf: What we have to do is recognize that, what that means for our lives. We also have to recognize that coming along with freewill is the ability to make the wrong choices, and we all do.

Andrew: Sure.

Dr. Leaf: And that's part of our story. It's part of our humanity. So instead of thinking, oh my gosh, I shouldn't be doing this, that's so terrible, guilt, shame, burden, burden, and you stay stuck, it is oh, I messed up. OK, I messed up, I acknowledge. Let me use my power to fix and unbecome what I've become. It's a very, very, very 360-degree turn on how we manage the mistakes we've made.

Andrew: It seems, you know, and conversation can seem very heady, but when like, immediately when you were talking about just choices, even in the context of this quantum physics conversation, which I kinda think quantum physics is all up in Romans where it says, "Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.” So there is this pairing, it seems, but I immediately went to—

Dr. Leaf: Absolutely, yeah.

Andrew: A time when I was, I don’t even know what triggered it, but I found myself in my bed and, you know, mentally, emotionally I was finding myself extremely stuck and in a dark place—

Dr. Leaf: Broken.

Andrew: And yes, broken. You know, people will say, well, how'd you come out of that. I only remember one small choice at a time. I remember finally saying, you're gonna put your shoes on. You're gonna put your clothes on.

Dr. Leaf: Very good.

Andrew: You know, you're gonna go to— I have family in town, and I'm single with no kids. I thought, I need a little bit of accountability of a community around me instead of being in my home alone. I still think that was wisdom from without me because—

Dr. Leaf: Oh, absolutely.

Andrew: If I had been left to my own vices, I would've stayed under the covers.

Dr. Leaf: But you did something key. You chose. You chose to put your shoes on. You chose to get out of bed. You recognized the need for community. And those were choices. You could've chosen to stay in bed, not put your shoes on, and not connect with community. So, ultimately, the minute that you chose, you stepped into the perfect you zone. And the minute you do that, you're suddenly immersed in wisdom, and that's what quantum physics actually shows. For example, it shows the science of what God is telling us. The minute you choose to step out of that zone into your perfect you zone, you suddenly have access to that wisdom within connecting with the wisdom of God and you get in a rhythm.

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Mark: Let's get back to you—

Danny: Sure. It's a good book.

Mark: And how it has helped you. Because I'm telling you, I have questions for that. I don't understand that, and you're not the authority, so let's get back to what you are the authority of, and that's being Danny Gokey.

Danny: I do know a little bit about him.

Mark: Yeah, so. When did God, Jesus, really like, when did you, like I have a date, I always wanna know the date, June 5, 1973, when I was—

Danny: Wow, how old are you?

Mark: I'm 59. I'll be 60 in June. So way before you were born, I was 14, it was at church camp. When did you?

Danny: OK, which time?

Andrew: Meet Jesus?

Mark: Oh, really? I love you.

Andrew: Did you know about church?

Mark: You're Pentecostal.

Danny: It's not as juicy. There ya go.

Mark: I love that.

Danny: So we grow up in the mindset—

Mark: Born again and again and again and again and again

Danny: I've probably answered, no lie, because of the fear of hell, that was kinda just swung over our lives like, if you don't, you're going to hell, probably at least a couple thousand times.

Mark: But you know what? Looking back now, being a baptist where we were once saved, always saved, just one time, you know, you're not born several times in this life—

Danny: Yeah, yeah.

Mark: OK, but the apostle Paul did say we're saved, being saved, and will be saved, somewhere in that Bible it says that. And—

Danny: Sounds like you’re not the expert on this. We should probably go—

Andrew: We should probably wait—

Mark: No, listen. I know where, that's brilliant, I know it's in there. I don't always know where.

Danny: Sure, sure.

Andrew: But you're saying like, like this once saved, always saved, I think sometimes it diminished my growth in Christ.

Danny: Yes. Can I? So let me give you an example. So, and this proves kinda the research of science, science proves God's existence, right? I dealt with that for many years. When I was 33-years-old, the Lord woke me up 'cause I was really, really stressed out about it. I was tired of trying to, because part of me, when you don't understand the Bible in the full context, you're thinking, OK, everything, you know, with the way my mind thinks, I can kinda hyper-analyze and start thinking, well, this is a sin, that's a sin, and I feel like I can't even live anymore 'cause everything seems wrong and I wanna please You, but there's nothing I can do to please You.

Mark: Right, right.

Danny: I'm a very complicated person. Let's just get that out the way.

Mark: I think we've all felt that way.

Danny: Yeah. God woke me up with Romans 4, and here's something that changed the mindset. It changed the way my brain thought. It was talking about, if people get a chance and understand what our salvation is, it's through our belief in Jesus Christ. Jesus did pay it all, but through that belief comes change. Change will happen. Was Abraham in the covenant because of the circumcision, or because he believed God? The Bible said he believed God—

Mark: And it was counted—

Danny: Counted as righteous, not because of the circumcision, but if we look at it, there’s always when you believe God, there's a corresponding action. That's why it says faith without works is dead, so there is, that's, the proof of change is that there's something happening on the inside of you, and there's something changing for the better. I believe God. That's why I do this. I believe God. That's why I obey this. So, it is because of Jesus, but the proof of Jesus in your life is that you're changing.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah, so that starts—

Mark: Wow, that's brilliant.

Andrew: The evidence of it.

Danny: Yeah.

Andrew: There's physical evidence.

Mark: I really don't think because I can remember a date, June 5, that's not proof of anything. What is proof that I know Him is what's going on today.

Danny: Yeah.

Mark: Like you just said.

Danny: Yeah.

Mark: What's happening in your life.

Danny: And sometimes like, with my wife, my wife got saved, it’s the funniest thing. If she was here, she's from Miami, she's super funny.

Andrew: What's her name again?

Danny: Leyicet.

Andrew: Leyicet, yeah.

Danny: She literally, went to church, her parents never went to church.

Mark: I'm showing cleavage. I'm sorry. I hate when my cleavage shows.

Andrew: Our viewership just went up.

Mark; OK, so, so, so.

Danny: I was enjoying it. I wish you hadn't said that. Gosh.

Mark: That one, lonely gray hair. OK, so.

Danny: So she gets, her parents are atheists, never take her to church. My wife, at like 21, she's the Miami scene, livin' the Miami scene, um, her friend invites her to church.

Mark: Is it still doing it? Godly Moses, I'm sorry.

Andrew: He's getting broader.

Danny: The viewers like it.

Andrew: He's getting broader.

Mark: OK, so.

Danny: He's getting broader.

Mark: Shoot, OK, I'm sorry.

Danny: This dinner conversation is messing you up.

Mark: So her parents, her parents are atheists. Go back there.

Danny: They don't take her to church, and so her friend invites her to church. And literally, the altar call that the pastor says this day says, he says, "Some of you might be even going to the club tonight, but you wanna know more about this Jesus.” And she said literally, she's like I'm going to the club tonight. Yeah, that's me. She went up and gave her life to Jesus. The seed was planted there, and she was at the club that night. Gettin' jiggy with it, you know what I mean?

Andrew: Getting jiggy with it.

Mark: Wow!

Danny: It took her a few years, and she didn't really know what happened.

Andrew: Sure.

Danny: So there is that date that you can remember.

Mark: Right.

Danny: But there—

Mark: The growth.

Danny: That seed is planted, and when we see a seed, that’s why the Bible is compared, the kingdom of God is compared to a seed. It starts very tiny. It starts very tiny, but then in its full production, it becomes a tree where many people are getting fruit from. Your life is something that people are just feeding off of now. Your life is about look at what is happening. This is evidence of the seed that was planted. Did you automatically come to this? No. But now there's fruit hanging off your tree that people now get to partake of.

Mark: Oh goodness gracious. You said he couldn't talk.

Andrew: Oh, I didn't say that. Penny said that.

Mark: My gosh he can talk.

Danny: I know. I won't let you guys get a word in.

Mark: You're really good.

Danny: Oh, thanks.

Mark: I'm impressed for 38. You really know a lot about God.

Danny: Oh, thank you. I'm serious.

Andrew: You talk about Leyicet.

Danny: Yeah.

Mark: Oh yeah, tell us about her.

Andrew: Well I'm interested in this question. So the beginning of your really kind of national support came through, partly, the story of your first wife's untimely death.

Danny: Yeah.

Mark: Right.

Andrew: Do you ever feel like that tragedy overshadows, like now you've been married with Leyicet seven years. Eight years?

Danny: Going on seven. Going on seven this year.

Andrew: Have children and a whole new life, you know, there. Does it ever feel like that remains a part and that somehow influences your current marriage? Or how does Leyicet work with that?

Danny: She, you know what is so cool about God is that God knew exactly what I needed. I mean, I'm telling you when you involve God in the areas of your life, like He will pick perfect people for you. And I can say that with my wife, you know, we've been through some intense lows, so don't think that this is perfect, but one thing that we've allowed, you know, we just, I'm noticing when you allow the Word of God to infiltrate every part of your life, things change naturally. And that's one thing changes naturally is your marriage. But, she wasn’t, she wasn’t, how do you say that, intimidated by Sophia. She embraced it. She didn't stay in the shadow. She began to take the next chapter and say this is my part now.

Mark: Wow.

Danny: And she compliments me very well. I know she was meant for me. I mean, she's not intimidated. You just gotta know, she is not—

Mark: But if you had to pick one.

Danny: You have the wrong person on the show, I'm telling, if I had to pick one. Oh my gosh.

Mark: I just had to ask that.

Andrew: Don't answer him but do look in that camera.

Mark: I'm kidding.

Danny: Um, both. Wait, wait, wait, wait.

Mark: My brain is not redeemed. Have you noticed? We wait for the redemption of the flesh, don't we?

Danny: Hey, let me tell you, Jesse Duplantis says the same thing when he says, "When my daddy gets to heaven, I don't know which wife he's gonna have, and I tell him when my momma gets up there, she's gonna pound his other wife.” Man, he talks to himself. Man, I don't know what he's gonna do in heaven.

Andrew: They're gonna leave you out altogether.

Mark: She died of cancer, did she have cancer?

Danny: A heart condition.

Mark: Just instantly and unexpected?

Danny: Unexpectedly, not—

Mark: She was how old?

Danny: She was born with this heart condition. It was supposed to be repairable. The surgeon she went through was a 90% success rate.

Andrew: Wow.

Danny: But she was the one that went out. But I think people need to understand is that I'm better because I went through it. I'm stronger because I went through that. I'm more anointed because I went through that. I'm more effective because I went through it. That's become a core message, that what the enemy meant for evil, God has actually made me better because of it, and actually, I can look back and say thank you. Thank you for building me because I reach more people now than I ever would've reached had I not went through that season.

“What the enemy meant for evil, God has actually made me better because of it.”

— Danny Gokey

Mark: Did you have children with her?

Danny: No, I didn't.

Mark: How are her parents? Do you see them?

Danny: Oh, I do. Yeah, they love Leyicet. They love my children. It's such a beautiful—

Mark: Isn't that wonderful?

Danny: And God heals it. And I gotta tell you, I've never been through the loss of a child, and so, I know you know I've been through the loss of a spouse and I don't know what, you know, because a spouse you are one with, you know, a child you’re not one with but yet, I don't know the dynamic between the two, but I've seen God restore them too. I think the lie that we believe is that we limit God.

Mark: That what?

Danny: We limit God. And so, like even for someone who's lost, 'cause someone can look at me and say well you lost a wife but you didn't lose a child.

Mark: Right.

Danny: I understand that.

Mark: Like there's a level of pain—

Danny: And I think some people, but this is the thing, don't limit God with how He can restore. Don't limit God because give Him the brokenness and watch Him bring fruit. Your child or your spouse was a seed. And, you know, the Bible says unless a seed falls to the ground and dies, it cannot produce fruit. Let that fall. Let it go into the ground. I had to let her go. That was a big thing. Let it go.

Mark: Be still.

Danny: You're not gonna have the answers. Be still and know that I am God, but watch that produce fruit. It's just what it's supposed to do.

Andrew: You think about how many times we bury ourselves alive with the dead, you know. We're still alive. I was thinking about you talking about how you visualized being buried with your wife and having to raise up again, you know, come back to life and I think, but you're still alive. So when you're buried there, it's just a suffocating—

Mark: And you can't go with them.

Andrew: Yeah.

Danny: You can’t.

Mark: And they don't want you to. You know what I mean?

Danny: No, yeah.

Mark: She's kicking up gold dust. She's busy.

Danny: That's what I'm saying, like she's happier than I am.

Andrew: She's not at a loss.

Danny: And if we knew they're happier than us—

Mark: They should be grieving for us.

Danny: We're missing out. And really what it comes down, they would never, I'm telling you, if I went to heaven, I wouldn't come back.

Mark: Uh uh, that's the reason I don't understand those people who come back. I've never understood. When they say I went to heaven and came back, I said did you get a choice because if I had a choice, I wouldn't go back.

Danny: Unless Jesus told me to come back, I ain't coming back here.

Mark: Right.

Danny Gokey singing "Rise"

There's a brokenness inside of you
There's a wound that still reminds you
Of the fear, shame and rejection
You have seen it, you have seen it

You know it's time to get up
But your heart’s paralyzed, you're so stuck
You're past the point of trying again
You're defeated, you're defeated

But something inside you can't deny
You hear the call of your creator
I made you for more, unlocked the door
I wanna restore your glory

So rise
Breaking the dark, piercing the night
You're made to shine
An army of hope
Bringing the world
A radiant light
A radiant light
You were made to rise, rise

Lift your head and look around you
See the dreams you lost, they have found you
And the heart that once was beating
Is coming back to life
Coming back to life

But something inside you can't deny
You hear the call of your creator
I made you for more, unlocked the door
I wanna restore your glory
So rise

Breaking the dark, piercing the night
You're made to shine
An army of hope
Bringing the world
A radiant light
Oh a radiant light
You were made to rise, rise

Shut the door on yesterday
Leave what happened in the grave
You were made to rise
You were made to shine
Creation longing for the day
For kings and queens to take their place
You were made to rise
You were made to shine

Rise
Breaking the dark, piercing the night
Made to shine
Bringing the world
A radiant light
Rise
Breaking the dark, piercing the night
You're made to shine
An army of hope
Bringing the world
A radiant light
A radiant light
You were made to rise, rise

Danny: I'll tell you this, you know, God's given me a new beginning. And we don't live.

Mark: Well, tell me about that. What do you mean?

Danny: It's just, we don't live in yesterday. My new beginning is I have a career, I have a ministry, I have a family. I have a non-profit, that all was birthed out of this.

Mark: OK.

Danny: And this is what God wants to give to everybody. You know, He says, behold, I make all things new. He makes it new. And part of that is the heart, part of that is the mind, part of that is your feelings. He can make those new too. Just chew on the truth, not on what you feel, not what you absorb in this fish tank of muck and mire. 'Cause the world really is a fish tank, and his Word is the brush that just cleanses and the soap that cleanses.

Mark: Mm, nice metaphor. I love that.

Andrew: Maybe that's the title, The Soap That Cleanses.

Mark: All right, we gotta wrap it up. What? I'm changing shirts. I'm sick of this, I'm burning this shirt.

Andrew: Thanks for being here.

Danny: Yeah, guys.

Andrew: It'll be fun.

Mark: Thank you so much. Nobody sees this, so have a good time.

Andrew: Whatever you wanna say is OK. (laughs)

Danny: It goes nowhere.

Mark: Oh no.

Andrew: That's right.

Mark: This goes straight to nowhere. But we have a good time doing it.

Danny: Hey, that’s all right. I like that.

Mark: And those who stumble across it seem to like it.

Danny: Mark, can you come over here and sing that right now? Your turn. What do you guys think about Mark's singing? Amazing, isn't it?

Mark: Danny Gokey, everybody.

Danny: Now you do it again but harmonize it.

Mark: All right.

Danny: Oh wait, you missed a key.

Mark: See, that's why he doesn’t sing with 60-year-olds.

Danny: No, but you're a singer.

Mark: Oh, I am, yeah.

Danny: There we go. You're just being bashful.

Mark: I'm just so humble.

Mark: We sure hope you've enjoyed this episode with Danny Gokey.

Andrew: You can check out his new record, Haven't Seen It Yet, through the Amazon affiliate link in our episode descriptions.

Mark: And you can binge watch all of Season Two of Dinner Conversations on Amazon Prime.

Andrew: Thanks for watching Dinner Conversations with.

Mark: Mark Lowry.

Andrew: And Andrew Greer.

Mark: Turning the light on.

Andrew: One question at at time.

Mark: There ya go. Dinner Conversations is brought to you by Food for the Hungry, a relief and development organization serving those in need around the globe for more than 40 years.

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