SEASON FOUR
Turning the Light On One Question at a Time.
Communion often begins with good conversation. And good conversation often begins around the dinner table.
Join award-winning singers, songwriters and authors Mark Lowry and Andrew Greer for the brand new film series and podcast. Subscribe via iTunes or YouTube below!
Season Four Official Trailer
There's a seat waiting for you around the table as award-winning musicians, storytellers and notable hosts Mark Lowry and Andrew Greer dig in to meaty topics with a variety of remarkable table guests. So join us for Season Four of Dinner Conversations …Turning the Light on One Question at a Time.
There's a seat waiting for you around the table as award-winning musicians, storytellers and notable hosts Mark Lowry and Andrew Greer dig in to meaty topics with a variety of remarkable table guests. So join us for Season Four of Dinner Conversations …Turning the Light on One Question at a Time.
First Time Father featuring Colton Dixon
American Idol's Colton Dixon shares all the joy and chaos of becoming a first time Dad ... to twin girls! Plus the story of his daughters' dangerous delivery that inspired a new level of faith in Colton and his wife's lives.
American Idol's Colton Dixon shares all the joy and chaos of becoming a first time Dad ... to twin girls! Plus the story of his daughters' dangerous delivery that inspired a new level of faith in Colton and his wife's lives.
Transcript
Mark: Dinner Conversations is brought to you by Food for the Hungry, an incredible relief and community development organization, serving those with physical and spiritual needs around the world for 50 years this year.
Andrew: Help us as we help our friends at Food for the Hungry save thousands of lives in Ethiopia today by considering a generous gift.
Mark: A gift that will be matched 22 times.
Andrew: Your one-time gift will make an eternal difference, so visit fh.org/dinner to give now.
Mark: What a pleasure it was today to get to meet Colton Dixon. I'd not known of him. Course I've seen him. He's always at the Dove Awards. He's a big CCM artist. But backstage at the Dove Awards is like daycare. They're all so young. And he is young too, he's not even 30 at this interview time, but he's the father of two already, twins.
Andrew: Already twins? They're already there!
Mark: I mean, he's 30 and he's already got twins. That is a lot to take on, boom, all at once. Not, you know, you don't get one and learn how to do it.
Andrew: Try it out.
Mark: Then you get the next one and see if you even like it before you go to the third one.
Andrew: There is no trial period here.
Mark: No.
Andrew: No, it's--
Mark: Boom, wife got pregnant, and the eggs split, and here they are with twins.
Andrew: They are. Yes, you learned that today too, right? They're identical, but they don't look alike because, well--
Mark: The eggs split early. Who knew?
Andrew: That's exactly right.
Mark: If the eggs split early, they won't kind of look alike.
Andrew: Yeah, I'm gonna split your head open. This--
Mark: But that's true though, right?
Andrew: It is true.
So Colton first kinda came into his own on a musical platform through American Idol. Really interesting journey, that he came from this huge, mainstream if you will, platform, but he has made a real mark in Christian music. He's gonna sing for us today, and he's gonna talk a lot about being a first-time daddy.
Mark: And he has a lot of depth. You know, you don't think of millennials as having any depth.
Andrew: I'm a millennial.
Mark: I know. That's what I'm sayin'. But he really does. He knows the Bible and he--
Andrew: But he does! He really does, yeah.
Mark: He does. That's what I just said. Colton Dixon, you're gonna really enjoy this. And there's one seat left at the table, and it's yours. So let's join the conversation.
Mark: Hi, Colt.
Colton: Hi!
Mark: How you doin'?
Colton: Awesome.
Mark: So nice to meet you.
Colton: Pleasure to meet you too. Big fan.
Mark: Oh, well thank you so much.
Andrew: Don't go too far.
Mark: Oh, you hush.
Colton: Don't add fuel to the fire.
Andrew: Yeah, exactly.
Mark: We're so glad to have you, and I hear that you're a new daddy.
Colton: I am. We had twins in August of last year. So in a global pandemic, it wasn't enough for us, so we decided to have twins. Man, it's awesome. Their names are Athens and Dior, and they're just the sweetest little babies.
Mark: And they're nine months.
Colton: Nine months. Yup, so they're crawlin' and climbin' up and wantin' to get into everything.
Mark: I mean, not just one, you start off with two.
Andrew: With two. With a bang.
Colton: With a double bang.
Mark: So is that when you booked the 300-day tour?
Colton: Yeah. Sorry, honey. No. No.
Andrew: The drive-in tour, let's talk about that for a second.
Colton: Yeah. Man, drive-in.
Andrew: How's that goin'?
Colton: Ya know, it's probably the least glamorous tour I've ever done in my life. The people are amazing, which is why it's been a great tour, but if you have not been to a drive-in tour, I would maybe just say, wait.
Andrew: Skip it. They gotta be worn out, audiences have to be worn out. Like I have not been to a drive-in tour yet, and I'm gonna take your advice, I'm gonna skip it. But I mean, what is the reaction? That's what I keep thinkin'.
Colton: It's great. I should say that.
Andrew: Yeah, yeah, come to the next.
Colton: It's great.
Andrew: But I mean, are they flashin' their lights? Or like, how do you know they're in it?
Colton: Yeah. They're honking their horns. And that is as serious as serious can be. You know, I'll say somethin' or we'll finish a song, and instead of applause or cheer, you hear (imitates car horn honking).
Andrew: Like, can I get a witness?
Colton: Yes. It is a little disheartening, if I'm honest. But hey, I'm not gonna complain. I'm playin' shows, so.
Andrew: That's right. It is true, music is a privilege. And of course being a father, a parent, is a privilege. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but you've just experienced your first Father's Day. Now how did that feel thinking like, this is the first time this has come around. Everyone's always celebrated being a daddy.
“Music is a privilege.”
Colton: Yes. Man, it's so strange. It's just strange to look at my kids and go, "I played a part in that." It's wild. But then also the responsibility of that, of knowing my wife and I are their example. So if they don't do well, I know whose fault it is.
Mark: It reflects on you.
Colton: Yes.
Andrew: To some degree, right? I mean…
Colton: To some degree.
Andrew: You can't control that. But you are shepherding 'em-
Colton: You'll get a crazy one every once in a while.
Mark: So which one do you like the best?
Colton: That's a great question. Honestly, it's so, they're so different.
Mark: Are they different?
Colton: They're so different!
Mark: Tell me how they're different.
Colton: Like, they're twins, so I just assumed they would be very similar.
Andrew: Identical?
Colton: Identical. So, I just assumed--
Mark: Can you tell 'em apart?
Colton: We can.
Mark: Okay.
Colton: Without getting too scientific, the eggs split really early, so they kinda took on their own characteristics.
Andrew: Okay, so even though they're technically identical...
Colton: Yeah. Took me a while to fully understand that.
Andrew: Okay.
Colton: But their personalities are so different. They're both very sweet. They smile all the time. But one is very, very busy. She loves, you know, pullin' up on the couch. She's tried to walk already. Lord have mercy.
Andrew: Wow.
Mark: Now was she born first? Or--
Colton: She was second.
Mark: Second.
Andrew: Oh!
Colton: It was C-section, so they were 30 seconds apart. 9:00 PM, I think it was. And the other one, you can sit her down, and she'll be there 30 minutes later.
Andrew: She's full chillin'.
Colton: She's just full chill.
Mark: She's cool.
Colton: Cool.
Andrew: I mean, is that the two of you, in some ways?
Colton: Ya know–
Andrew: Is that you and your wife?
Colton: I'm pretty busy, but I can chill pretty hard too, so. That's funny actually. I haven't really thought who takes after who. Yeah, I think my wife and I both have moments where we can chill, and then if we're doing somethin'...
Andrew: Yeah, you're in it.
Colton: We're in it.
Andrew: So you're productive by nature.
Colton: Yes. Very much so. But it's a blast at the house now.
Mark: You want more?
Colton: Oh, mercy.
Andrew: It's a little too soon, isn't it?
Colton: Someday.
Andrew: I figure if you get two at one, you did your deed.
Colton: 100%
Andrew: You got it all settled in.
Mark: You replaced yourselves.
Colton: Oh my goodness.
Andrew: You replaced yourselves?
Colton: Yeah, anything after this, gosh, I can't think of the comedian's name. I think he had, he's on his fifth kid and he said, "You know, four kids, it's like, we both have one in an arm." Who was this?
Mark: He's Catholic.
Colton: Yes.
Mark: He's blonde-headed. Jim Gaffigan.
Colton: Jim Gaffigan.
Mark: Oh, he is–
Andrew: Thank you for that.
Mark: I love him.
Colton: But he's like, "Having your fifth one is kind of like being in the ocean, each having two kids in your arm, and then someone throws you another child."
Andrew: They just, they drown.
Colton: Drowning. You know? And I'm like, yeah, I could not imagine…
Mark: That's funny.
Colton: More than two right now. So, more power to that guy. But, yeah man.
Andrew: Well, Catholics.
Colton: Someday.
Andrew: I mean, I don't know. I mean you're a Southern Baptist, so there's a stopping point.
Colton: There's a stopping point.
Andrew: Yeah.
Colton: Big time.
Andrew: Tradition with Catholics, right? They have big families.
Mark: Yeah.
Andrew: Because for a long time--
Mark: Well, Mormons, I think, do too.
Colton: Yup.
Andrew: Yeah, but for different reasons, right? Or maybe not!
Mark: They love families. They love big families.
Colton: I'm not sure if the reasons are different.
Andrew: Well, Catholic. Here's a more, yeah okay, anyway. So on a more serious note, I got it, yeah, exactly.
Mark: This is really good.
Andrew: It is good, I know.
Colton: It's very good.
Andrew: We don't know where to go from that. But on a more serious note, you did have two children, you have two children, but from what I understand, your wife's name is Annie, right?
Colton: Correct.
Andrew: Awesome pregnancy, I mean, of course, it's y'all's first time.
Mark: Except one of them was born without a pulse.
Colton: Yeah.
Mark: Tell us about that.
Colton: It was so scary.
Mark: Which one was it?
Colton: It was Dior.
Mark: Dior.
Colton: Like you said, perfect pregnancy. As perfect as a pregnancy can go. She went into labor naturally. All the doctors were super positive about the twins. And it just took a long time, so we had to switch from having a natural birth to C-section kind of last minute. But again, no reason for any wrong signs.
Andrew: Concerns.
Colton: Yeah, none of that. But since that birthing process had begun, Dior was already in the birth canal. So she was in there for a second, so her body eventually shut down. When she came out, she wasn't breathing, had no pulse. Scary. But we had that moment. I'm thankful for good teaching. We had that moment where we both went, "This is it. Faith or fear." Like it's time to practice what we preach.
Mark: Faith or fear.
Colton: Yeah. And that's it. Like when life throws stuff at you, that's the choice you have to make.
Mark: Wow. Can you choose both?
Colton: I wish you could, but I think--
Mark: 'Cause even when you step out on faith, it can be scary.
Colton: It can be. But I think that faith is the absence of fear and vice versa.
Mark: Interesting.
Colton: I think they're polar opposites. But being courageous doesn't mean you're not afraid, it means that you choose to step out anyway.
“Being courageous doesn’t mean you’re not afraid.”
Andrew: Well, it didn't mean you weren't afraid in that moment.
Colton: 100%
Andrew: You both were afraid for the life of your child.
Colton: But it's like, put it this way, when you choose, it's almost like puttin' on the garment of praise. That's why He says to put it on. Because you don't always feel like it.
Mark: Right.
Colton: So when you put it on, it starts to change the atmosphere around you.
Mark: That is really good.
Colton: And change your thinking or whatever, and you start to evolve into that and then you feel like it. It's the same thing–
Andrew: It becomes a more natural response.
Colton: Yeah. So when you choose faith, it doesn't mean you're not afraid in the moment.
Mark: Right.
Colton: But when you continue to choose it, that fear goes down as the faith comes up.
Andrew: So did you feel like you and your wife had exercised that already? Is that why that came so naturally?
Colton: We have. We were both raised in a Christian home. She was born and raised more charismatic than I was. We were talking about this earlier. We were born and raised--
Andrew: You said garment of praise, and I said, that is not the Baptist church…
Colton: That is not--
Andrew: I grew up with.
Colton: No, it is not.
Mark: I love it.
Colton: But it's biblical. Imagine that! There are a few of those things! I was like, bro, we didn't talk about this. But yeah.
So, we've seen God work in our own lives and do miracles in our lives, things that we can't explain in the natural. Even as a Southern Baptist, you know, it's like, hey, that shouldn't happen like that. So we've seen it, and we've heard testimony after testimony, so you're like, okay God, we're gonna take you up on it. And we're gonna go take you at your word. If you did it then, you can do it again. So that's what we're gonna stand on. And we did, and I'm not gonna say that God directly reached into Dior and healed her and brought her back to life; He might've worked through those doctors and nurses. But she's happy and healthy now, and that's what matters.
Mark: Absolutely.
Colton: And we give all the glory to God because of it.
Colton Dixon singing “Miracles”
Ninety miles on the highway
Every day moving so fast
Taking all the wrong ways out
Never saw you coming
Stopping me in my tracks
Keeping me from the long way down
Doesn't matter just how many times I tried
There could only be a single reason why
So tell me
How do miracles just happen like that
Happen like that, happen like that
You can say the stars align but
I know that it's more than timing
How do miracles just happen like that
Happen like that, happen like that
Right before I hit the ground some
How You came along and found me
Ooh, ooh
Right before I hit the ground some
How You came along and found me
Some will say it's magic
But I know that You did all that
You're the reason, there's no doubt
Doesn't matter just how many times I tried
There could only be a single reason why
So tell me
How do miracles just happen like that
Happen like that, happen like that
You can say the stars align but
I know that it's more than timing
How do miracles just happen like that
Happen like that, happen like that
Right before I hit the ground some
How You came along and found me
Ooh, ooh
Right before I hit the ground some
How You came along and found me
There's no doubt when I feel Your love
Call me crazy and out of touch
But I know that it's from above
Tell me
How do miracles just happen like that
Happen like that, happen like that
You can say the stars align but
I know that it's more than timing
How do miracles just happen like that
Happen like that, happen like that
Right before I hit the ground some
How You came along and found me
Ooh, ooh
You can say the stars align but
I know that it's more than timing
Ooh, ooh
Right before I hit the ground some
How You came along and found me
Food for the Hungry Sponsorship Message
Mark: You could help save thousands of lives by giving a generous gift to Food for the Hungry today.
Andrew: In the rural Dera district of Ethiopia, families are experiencing high death rates in children under five due to preventable water-related diseases. They simply don't have access to clean water sources or the infrastructure to practice good health and hygiene.
Mark: Until now! We're talking latrines, Andrew. Your gift today will provide families in the Dera district with clean water, health and hygiene training, hand washing stations, and lifesaving latrines. And to add to the impact, your gift will be matched 22 times! 22 times.
Andrew: It's a wonderful opportunity, Mark. Food for the Hungry is already laying the groundwork now to provide a safe place to live for hundreds of thousands of vulnerable children and their families in Ethiopia. I think of Jesus's own words in the gospels where He says, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself." The people of Ethiopia, Mark, they matter to God, and so they matter to us too. Will you help us let them know they're important to God and to their neighbors across the ocean? That's us.
Mark: Give generously today at fh.org/dinner. We're so excited that you'll be giving that we wanna give something to you. We have several add-ons, we call them, where we will be maybe making a special phone call to a friend of yours, videos I think.
Andrew: Some little videos, that's right, as shout-out videos for your friend's birthday, for an anniversary, or maybe like a Zoom conversation with just you, Mark, and me. Or even a Zoom party with you and some of your friends. All these are just a simple way to say thank you for the life-saving gift that you're giving to Food for the Hungry, for our friends in Ethiopia, at fh.org/dinner.
Abide Bible Sponsorship Message
Mark: The Bible is the foundation of our theology. We would not know of Jesus if it weren't for the Bible. We wouldn't know about grace. We wouldn't know about how God cares for us. And there is a new Bible out called the Abide Bible. You know how Jesus said, "If you abide in me as I abide in my father and we abide in each other," it's just a continual feed off each other. And what I like about this Bible is it's asking us to go deeper.
Andrew: Yeah, it's taking an approach to the Bible from being just simply informational to really being invitational. So there's a lot of prompts in this Bible to journal alongside Scriptures. It gives you opportunity to pray certain Scriptures at different seasons of your life, to meditate on the Scripture. There's beautiful artwork in here that's really cool 'cause it's not just like some kind of Sunday school artwork. They're using DaVinci and beautiful pieces of classic--
Mark: And Van Gogh!
Andrew: To really just get us to imagine, to be able to use all of our senses as we enter into Scripture so that we really step into the story of Scripture, not just see it as words on the page but as part of a living, breathing, active part of our lives. And you know what? I asked my brother one time, who's a pastor, I said, "Why is the Bible so important?" And he said exactly what you said a second ago; because it is the greatest written revelation of who God is. And so it gives us the opportunity to know God but also to be a part of God's story. That's the Abide Bible.
Mark: So go to abidebible.com to get your copy today.
Andrew: Well, you're talking a lot about how we respond, right?
Colton: Yeah.
Andrew: What we don't have control over, at least what I've experienced in my life, what I do not have control over is, in a large part, my circumstances. Maybe I can make some choices that produce some healthy outcomes, right? But circumstances are thrown at us all day long; everything from our family's health to our own health, to sometimes our finances, anything that is a part of life that can produce fear. We don't always have control over those, but we do have, or I do have, control over how I respond to 'em in the moment. So how do we cultivate a culture of response within us? You know, like if you think about the last year that we've come out of.
Colton: Oh my gosh, yeah.
Andrew: This whole year, worldwide, there were reasons to pause, to have concern, but I'm not sure that we need to collectively freak out all the time, or we don't wanna make a habit of that. We wanna respond, not always be reactionary. Does that make sense?
Colton: Yeah.
Andrew: So how do you produce a culture of that in your own life? And then how do we do that as a society?
Colton: Yeah. This is gonna sound really funny coming from me because I obviously don't work out that much, but I think faith is like a muscle, you know. The more you practice it, the stronger you're gonna become in that area. So when things like a global pandemic happen, your entire world doesn't go to, you know, highway in a handbasket, you know? It's something that you can look at and go, okay, I'm having thoughts right now. I'm gonna let 'em just, in one ear and out the other. I'm gonna take my thoughts captive, and I'm gonna go, okay, the enemy comes to steal, kill, and destroy. God comes to give us life and life more abundant, so what category is this in? When you do that, it becomes easier. It's like, "Oh."
“Faith is like a muscle.”
Mark: So the whole year shut down for you too.
Colton: Yeah, it did. Yeah.
Mark: And you were off the road for nine months? A year? Do you remember how long?
Colton: Gosh, it was probably seven or eight months. We did a few drive-in things last fall, just to kind of test the waters.
Mark: Did you do any live-streaming or anything?
Colton: We did a few things. I love technology, but I know my limit at the same time, so I was like, man, I would see some people do it, and it was this elaborate production. And I'm thinking, I'm gonna be using my phone as the audio, so maybe I just shouldn't. Ya know? I did a couple--
Andrew: Oh, Mark would say zoo.
Mark: I would say zoo. I think the people like it.
Colton: They do. They do. Yep.
Mark: Nobody likes it but the people.
Colton: Yep. I know. That's so true.
Mark: But then there are people like Matthew West? He has a big production.
Colton: Oh yeah, he does do his productions very well.
Andrew: He's got more money than all of us.
Mark: He has millions of views. He has what?
Andrew: More money than all of us.
Mark: I don't know.
Andrew: I don't know. We'll ask tomorrow, but—
Mark: We'll ask tomorrow.
Colton: Oh, is he on here tomorrow?
Andrew: Yeah.
Colton: Love it. Tell him I said hello.
Andrew: I am curious, when things are scaled back like that, when you're talking about, okay, this is my livelihood, this is what I'm passionate about, I'm assuming music is something that is a natural expression for you--
Colton: Hate it. I'm just kidding.
Andrew: Five more years, then I'm done.
But so far, that's been where you put a lot of your time into it, your productivity, and you are a productive person, like you were saying. What kind of response does that, let's go back to responses, what kind of response does that elicit in you when it's like, oh, everything I've been puttin' my time and energy into is not possible in this moment.
Colton: Yeah. To be honest, I had gone through a situation just a little over a year prior to pandemic that was similar in a lot of ways. I got dropped by my label. I don't know if you've ever experienced that. Probably not, you guys were always very successful.
Mark: No.
Colton: But I had that moment. It was very random, kinda out of the blue, and I was confused, you know, I'm like, I thought this was a good thing, and all of those questions. Thankful for a godly wife. She's like, "Man, don't think of this as a setback. God's just setting you up for what's next. So have that attitude."
Mark: Not a setback, a setup.
Colton: So good. She could be a preacher.
Mark: That is good.
Colton: But Southern Baptists don't believe in…
Andrew: Sometimes you wanna shut that down.
Colton: Women preachers, so.
Mark: Oh!
Andrew: We can talk about that, can't we?
Mark: Not supposed to.
Andrew: I do, too. I'm fine with it.
Mark: I'm seriously--
Colton: I go to a church where there's a woman pastor, and I love it.
Mark: I love it. Women, you know, I mean, they know how to put it into words. But anyway.
Colton: But so in that season, I kinda had to learn that, oh man, my career is not my source. You know? And my salary from the business is not my source. God's my source. And He did, He found a way to get money to us, regardless if it was through shows or no shows, or a label or no label.
So when the pandemic hit, I'd already been through a season of learning where my hope and faith and trust comes from, and yeah, it made it a little easier, but then it was also just a huge blessing in disguise, being home with my wife who was pregnant.
Mark: Oh yeah.
Colton: Getting to be at home every day with my babies for the first five months. It was amazing.
Andrew: Yeah, what a gift. Yeah.
Colton: But on the music side, I went from having a band to no band, which was crazy. I've always loved rock music, and I've done the rock band thing for a long time, but I've been transitioning into more of a pop thing. So I took that opportunity to go, how can I make this work with just me? So it allowed me to really dive into, I don't know if you guys are familiar with what Ed Sheeran does at a live show?
Andrew: Oh yeah.
Colton: He shows up with an acoustic guitar and a loop pedal, and it sounds like a band is on stage with him.
Mark: Wow.
Colton: So I'm like, okay, how does he do this? So I jumped into that, and that's kinda what I do now. I show up and I've got a drum station here and a keyboard station here, and I build the song as I go, and it's something unique and fun.
Mark: How cool.
Colton: And I wouldn't have been able to do that if I didn't have time.
Andrew: Sure.
Mark: There you go.
Colton: But I had time. So it's with anything.
Mark: And the overhead. Now let's just talk from a business standpoint.
Colton: Yeah, come on.
Andrew: You gotta start saving some money for those girls.
Mark: For me, it's like a microphone and a stool, and I'm set.
Colton: Yeah.
Mark: That's all that I need.
Colton: Oh my gosh.
Mark: And you will be able to save.
Colton: No kidding.
Mark: For your children.
Andrew: You'll be able to afford shirts like these.
Mark: Yeah.
Colton: I know. Man, I was admiring that shirt earlier.
Mark: I'm gonna tell ya. Target.
Andrew: Target. Me too!
Colton: Man, I'm still in that Walmart stage. I'll graduate to Target one of these days.
Andrew: It's coming.
Mark: It's a step up.
Andrew: Your thirties decade is coming. By the end of that, you're good.
Okay, well, talk about staying home with your girls. Tell me how your perspectives have changed. You know, I can't think of anything more motivating or pure than having to take care…
Mark: Or life-shattering.
Andrew: Of someone else. That could be in any stage of life. But being entrusted with life. So how has that changed your perspective, just as a person?
Colton: Man, my wife and I both, when I got married and then when I had kids, I'm like, man, I am so selfish. I'm just a selfish human being. You don't realize that until you're having to take care of someone else and you're having to be interrupted. Just being willing to be interrupted is a huge thing for me. Whenever I'm in the zone doing something, I won't eat. If I'm writing, whatever, I'll get the song done at all costs, I'm just that person. My wife has to make me eat. But with kids, they're kids. They're babies, you know? There's no discipline at this age. They're figuring out--
Mark: You haven't beat 'em yet?
Colton: No, I have not. My wife wouldn't let me. I'm kidding, I'm kidding. They're just the sweetest you can be.
Andrew: Like when they cry and you just pick 'em up and drop 'em so they know how it feels. I mean, like on their bed.
Mark: Oh Lord.
Colton: Mercy. I've not done that, Annie, I promise.
But just that knowing I'm gonna be interrupted and being okay with that took me a second. I had to be okay with it, come to terms with it. But it just made me realize, oh, I like to do things my way, or I have my preference or whatever. So if anything, having kids and getting married, it's taught me to, I've heard it put this way: If you wanna be more like Christ, get married. If you wanna do more for the Kingdom, stay single. And I'm like, whoa!
Andrew: Interesting.
Mark: Whoa. Who you been listenin' to? They're good.
Colton: I don't remember who said that. I wish I did.
Mark: That was a good one. I'll take that one.
Colton: Yeah, take it. Heard it first, Mark Lowry. But--
Mark: No, I just love that idea 'cause Paul even said that.
Colton: That's exactly right.
Mark: How is it making you more like Jesus, you think? How has marriage done that? And then how've the children expanded that? Do you think--
Colton: Just to know how Jesus' relationships was for the church, He laid His life down for the church, and knowing that as a man, that's my role for my wife. And that doesn't just look like, you know, if someone pulls out a gun--
Mark: You jump in front of it.
Colton: Right. That doesn't just--
Andrew: 'Cause you're not gonna do that.
Mark: No, no.
Colton: We both dodge.
Mark: That's right. "Duck, baby, duck!"
Colton: No, but it's like that on a daily basis as well. It's like, hey, you put her before yourself. And that's what Jesus did. So even with my kids, the relationship that God has with us, He would do anything for us. And we have access to Him and all that He has.
So just knowing, they're not asking right now, hallelujah, although diapers for two, come on. It can get expensive. But there's nothing I wouldn't do. And even just being out on the road, it's been a new season for my wife and I; she's normally out with me, but now she's not. We've got help with her parents, but knowing like, I'm out here for you guys, you know, and there's a grace and a purpose in that, in knowing I may not be with you on a daily basis right now, but I'm still doing what I do for you. And it really brings a lot of peace and comfort for my wife and I.
Andrew: It also changes, like you were talking about when you lost your label deal and kind of feeling like, you know, the floor fell out from underneath you in that moment, what am I gonna do about my career, et cetera. It seems it gives you perspective from just that when you're out on the road, when you're making music, when you're in front of people, it's not just about amassing and achieving, and it now has this new filter of, this is also how I'm providing. That puts new purpose in it. You know, if it's just about what I can build for myself, this is for any of us.
Colton: Yeah, yeah. 100%. And that's a really scary place to be, especially in our industry. That's when it becomes very easy to become jaded or bitter, when it's about you. And that's, again, one of the things that being married and having kids has taught me. It's like, it ain't about just me anymore or my preferences. But onstage like, yeah, providing for my family has brought a new sense of purpose. But if before then it was all about me, then I was missing it anyway. I learned real quick that, man, when I show up expecting to be served, I would always leave, you know, not full. The crowd wouldn't respond the way I wanted to or they wouldn't jump when I wanted them to jump, or…
Andrew: Honk.
Colton: Headbang. Or honk, or whatever. But I'm like, no, no, no, I'm here to serve them. That's why they're here. Sure, they want a good show, but if I show up on empty and I've got nothing to give, I'm doing them a disservice. So realizing that early on has helped me a lot. But you're right, having this new sense of purpose and going, hey, I not only get to pour into other people, but I'm also providing for my family.
The Faithful Project
Mark: Women have been very important in my journey to know Jesus. First of all, my mother, who would tuck me into bed at night and tell me God's gonna use me. My grandmothers were so important to me. And then some of the women in our church, like Dolores Sims. You've never heard of her, but she would always woo me to Jesus.
And did you know that women were the first ones that learned that Jesus had risen from the dead? And then they went back, told the men, the men didn't believe it 'til they saw Him for themselves. But women have been very important in the message of the gospel, and this new project called Faithful, which is a CD and a book.
Andrew: Yeah, there's so many of our good friends and people that you have read their literature or you have heard their music, people like Amy Grant and Kelly Minter and Ginny Owens, Sandra McCracken, Sally Lloyd-Jones, Trillia Newbell, there's so many wonderful authors and artists, and here's the cool part: They all got together to write about the women of the Bible and then write songs about how women are a part of continuing to share the story of the gospel all throughout history into today. But the artists and the authors combined efforts, so artists, musicians were writing some of the chapters and authors were helping write some of the music, which I think it's just this shared experience to say that the telling and sharing of the gospel, the story of God, is written in each of our lives to share and tell to others.
Just like you, when I think about who first shared the real nuts and bolts of the gospel, it was women. And so this Faithful Project celebrates that, highlights that, and offers an opportunity, not just for women but also for men, to be invited into that conversation as well. To learn more about the book and the music project called Faithful, go to faithfulproject.com.
Visit Dinner-Conversations.com for DVDs, CDs, and more!
Mark: Did you know that at dinner-conversations.com we have a store? We have been around long enough to produce products--
Andrew: That you want.
Mark: You want this. A Dinner Conversations mug to hold your eight ounces
of coffee in the morning.
Andrew: It's not big.
Mark: And then, one if you wanna look at us. See how intellectual I look with my glasses.
Andrew: You look like you're judging me.
Mark: Well, I am. It gives me that intellectual look.
Andrew: We also have DVDs full of all of our episodes and a bunch of bonus content you can't find anywhere else. We've got the Season One DVD with all kinds of guests, like Sandi Patty and Chonda Pierce and Point of Grace. And we've got the Season Two DVD set. I mean, these are tons of discs. Kathie Lee Gifford, Montell Jordan, Scott Hamilton, Amy Grant. And you know what else we have?
Mark: What?
Andrew: We have the Songs from the Set CD, where we sing a little bit together, but also you'll hear a lot of songs from people like Russ Taff and the Isaacs, some of our very favorites. You can find all of that at dinner-conversations.com.
Colton Dixon singing “Made to Fly”
My daddy always told me hold your head up high
It's just one moment, in all of time
If you can't see it, just close your eyes
And believe it, it's all inside
So keep on keepin' on 'til the walls come down
Reachin' higher 'til your feet don't touch the ground
Get the power of praise flowing out your mouth
Lemme hear ya
If you need freedom, look to the sky
'Cause hope is waiting on the other side
Sing hallelujah by and by
Don't stop at walking when you were made to fly
Mama always showed me, there's more to life
Than copper pennies and silver dimеs
So rest your head, child, it'll be alright
Just keep knocking and ye shall find
So keep on keepin' on 'til the walls come down
Reachin' higher 'til your feet don't touch the ground
Get the power of praise flowing out your mouth
Lemme hear ya
If you need freedom, look to the sky
'Cause hope is waiting on the other side
Sing hallelujah by and by
Don't stop at walking when you were made to fly
So keep on keepin' on 'til the walls come down
Reachin' higher 'til your feet don't touch the ground
Get the power of praise flowing out your mouth
Lemme hear ya
So keep on keepin' on 'til the walls come down
Reachin' higher 'til your feet don't touch the ground
Get the power of praise flowing out your mouth
Lemme hear ya
If you need freedom, look to the sky
'Cause hope is waiting on the other side
Sing hallelujah by and by
Don't stop at walking 'cause you were made to fly
Sing hallelujah by and by
Don't stop at walking 'cause you were made to fly
Don't stop at walking when you were made to fly
Andrew: Go back to parenting, go back to becoming a father, becoming a parent. What about single people in the world? Do they have a role in any way of parenting or being in the lives of the children of the world?
Colton: You mean like single, say like my wife and I have friends who are single…
Andrew: Sure.
Colton: And then we get married, have kids, and they're still single people?
Andrew: Sure.
Colton: 100%. They remind us what it used to be like to have fun. Kidding.
Andrew: I'm sure that makes you a better person.
Colton: No, they absolutely do. One of our best friends is a guy who teaches at Lipscomb University. And he's just awesome. But he comes in and it's a different perspective on life. Life's all about relationships and perspective. And when you're in your own perspective and you're looking at things a certain way all the time, you miss out, and so it's good to broaden that. Again, that's another Baptist thing that they may or may not agree with, but--
Andrew: Broaden your perspective?
Colton: Yeah. It's good to--
Mark: To let different viewpoints come in. Not to be afraid…
Colton: 100%
Mark: Of your Buddhist neighbor or your Buddhist neighbor, you know, whatever.
Colton: Yeah, have conversation. Doesn't have to change your moral compass or your beliefs, but it's sad when we don't open that up and we keep it for ourselves. Not saying that mine is better than theirs, but just they could have something that could rock your world.
Mark: Right.
Colton: You know, it's like, oh wow. Like that's so cool. So we always try to be open, and we just love people. People are awesome. I think they really are. They can be not awesome sometimes, sure.
Andrew: Sure.
Colton: But yeah, we love people, and so we want to extend the same type of attitudes--
Mark: So, in 10 years, you'll be almost 40.
Colton: 40. 40-years-old.
Mark: Where do you want to be at that age? Where would you like to, where do you see Colton Dixon?
Colton: I mean, I'd love to be in Hawaii when I'm 40.
Mark: On vacation.
Colton: Retired. Man, that's such a good question. Sure, I have goals and aspirations, and like, my girls will be almost 11, you know. They will be 11 when I turn 40. It's so funny when you have kids how your goals change, or they kinda evolve. Sure, I would like to be at this point in my career and doing really well being successful, but going back to people, my mission with music is to leave people better than they were when they pressed play. You know? Or when they walk in the door at a show, I want them to leave better and more inspired and encouraged. And my kids, I'm so excited to see my girls, and if we have another one by the time I'm 40, help us. But I'm so excited to see them mature and to see them grow, and it's also a lot of responsibility. My wife and I are their example, you know? So it's--
Mark: Well, you're gonna blink.
Colton: And it's gonna be there, I know.
Mark: And you're gonna be walking them down an aisle.
Colton: Ooh! Don't wanna think about it.
Mark: Think about that. You're gonna blink.
Colton: Mercy. Golly.
Mark: Don't blink.
“Don’t blink.”
Colton: I know.
Mark: Keep the eyes open.
Colton: I know it, man. But yeah, long story short, I'm taking it one season at a time and trying to enjoy all the little moments.
Andrew: Being present.
Mark: Yes.
Colton: Yeah. But who knows. Who knows what God has for me. He's been my world.
Mark: I hope that your wife and kids can travel with you soon.
Colton: Me too. We've talked about it. This fall is a fairly easy church--
Mark: Wouldn't that be fun to come off that stage and they are on the bus waitin' on you?
Colton: It would be amazing. Amazing.
Andrew: Would it?
Mark: Yes.
Colton: Oh, I thought there was more to that question.
Andrew: No, that's it.
Colton: Yes.
Andrew: I was just thinking infants on the bus--
Colton: I think most of the time it would. It's so funny, we've toured with people in the past who have brought out very, very young kids. And when it's your bus, go for it. When you're sharing a bus…
Andrew: Right. Think of others.
Mark: Right. Right. I wouldn't do that.
Colton: Think of others.
It's been great. But we're also aware.
Mark: You also think, everybody will love my children.
Colton: Of course you think that. Of course you think, oh my kids are the best kids to ever walk the face of the earth.
Mark: I've rarely seen one I didn't love. I mean, I don't know that I've ever seen a child I didn't think I'd be crazy about.
Andrew: Ya never hated a kid?
Mark: I like kids. I love kids.
Colton: They're just so fun, man.
Andrew: Their perspective--
Mark: And if they're real young and they haven't started talkin' yet, you smell their head and that's what Heaven smells like.
Colton: Oh! Isn't it the best? I completely agree.
Mark: I think it's what Heaven smell– And I think they come mute because if they could talk, they could tell us what God's like. They gotta forget how to talk.
Colton: I like that.
Mark: I've gotta forget God, before He lets 'em start talkin'.
Colton: That's funny.
Mark: Don't put any of that in the tag--
Andrew: There's so much theology in that.
Colton: I know that that theology will stand true.
Andrew: Yeah, that may be Baptist theology.
Mark: I'm writing a new book of Mark.
Andrew: I think I heard that in Sunday school.
Mark: I'm writin' a new book of Mark.
Colton: That's funny.
Mark: What? What does this mean?
Colton: Here. There ya go.
Andrew: Thank you.
Colton: You're welcome.
Mark: Thank you for watching Dinner Conversations. Don't forget to subscribe, and then ring that bell and get all notifications.
Andrew: And don't forget to like us or dislike us.
Mark: No, no, no.
Andrew: Nah, don't do that. Leave comments, talk about what's resonating in your life from these conversations. And join us next time for Dinner Conversations with…
Mark: Mark Lowry
Andrew: And Andrew Greer
Mark: Turning the light on…
Andrew: One question at a time.
Mark: Dinner Conversations is brought to you by Food for the Hungry, an incredible relief and community development organization, serving those with physical and spiritual needs around the world for 50 years this year.
Andrew: Help us as we help our friends at Food for the Hungry save thousands of lives in Ethiopia today by considering a generous gift.
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Back to Basics featuring CeCe Winans
Iconic gospel artist CeCe Winans, who is nominated for 3 Grammy Awards for her latest record Believe For It, shares her unexpected journey into starting Nashville Life Church and becoming a pastor. Her son Alvin Love III, pastor of Nashville Life Church, also joins us to talk about the Church in the 21st Century.
Iconic gospel artist CeCe Winans, who is nominated for 3 Grammy Awards for her latest record Believe For It, shares her unexpected journey into starting Nashville Life Church and becoming a pastor. Her son Alvin Love III, pastor of Nashville Life Church, also joins us to talk about the Church in the 21st Century.
Transcript
Mark: Dinner Conversations is brought to you by Food for the Hungry, an incredible relief and community development organization serving those with physical and spiritual needs around the world for 50 years this year.
Andrew: Help us as we help our friends at Food for the Hungry save thousands of lives in Ethiopia today by considering a generous gift.
Mark: A gift that will be matched 22 times.
Andrew: Your one time gift will make an eternal difference. So visit fh.org/dinner to give now.
Mark: I first heard CeCe Winans years ago, I think it was on...
Andrew: PTL Club.
Mark: Jim and Tammy's show. With her brother BeBe. And I have watched her blossom into this incredible beautiful woman of God, and the smile! There's something magical about the CeCe Winans smile. You just feel at home when she smiles at you, and then her son comes along, but she and her husband founded a church here in Nashville.
Andrew: That's right, they founded a church. Here in Nashville. It was not what they were expecting. I think they were on their way moving outside of Nashville. And yet Nashville kept them grounded because of their son's spiritual experience while he was in Australia, which eventually called him back to here, helped them build the church. And now is the pastor of the church.
And I have to say of all the conversations we've had, you know, we've had some really cool people on here, but I am a true fan boy of CeCe Winans. So I'm getting even like ticklish inside just thinking about having this conversation and watching it again.
Mark: Well, we need to move along. There's one seat left at the table, and it's yours. So let's join this conversation.
Andrew: Yeah, my first foray into, so I grew up in a predominantly. Yeah, so I grew up in a predominantly Caucasian and Hispanic environment west of Fort Worth, getting into west Texas territory. We had a high school 2,500 kids and one African American.
CeCe: One.
Andrew: So my, my mother grew up in New Orleans though, was highly influenced by Motown music in the 60s and brought that into our household and loved it. You know, my brothers and me, but I was immediately drawn to music from African American heritage and traditions. And I remember, on our kind of white CCM radio station, you and BeBe really were the first, my introduction to, what I would say, Black music in that kind of environment. So we went to a show when I was 10-years-old of yours.
CeCe: Come on.
Andrew: I'm serious. And yeah, yeah, yeah. And so we waited, I loved music, I played the piano, all this kind of stuff. And they had heard, I think they bought a CD at the merch table or something, they said, you know, she's gonna come sign afterwards. Do you want to meet her? I was like, I don't know, you know, kind of thing. So I waited in line, got up there. I get up to the front of the table. I mean, this was, I don't know where this was like, maybe Prestonwood Baptist or something like that. A big church, you know, you stood up and you said, "Hi, I'm CeCe," when I got to the front of the line, and I was like, I know who you are. You can sit back down. That's what I was thinking. But the influence of the humility that I experienced. Yeah. Because you see one thing. So especially as a 10-year-old, I'm still taking in a lot of like, what is this?
CeCe: Wow, you were 10.
Andrew: And what is it?
CeCe: Unbelievable.
Andrew: But I remember thinking, okay, cause you're talking about ministry from stage, right?
CeCe: Right.
Andrew: And I remember thinking, I feel something, I felt something in Black gospel music, we'd go to Tony Evans' church and to The Potter's House because I just wanted to experience the feeling of the energy, because in my church growing up, we were told to, basically, the MO was sit down and shut up.
CeCe: Wow! How do you have church sitting down and being quiet.
Andrew: When you think about what Jesus has done? You know? So that energy...
Mark: Like what that one preacher said, like came up and said, "Brother, Jesus," because he was all excited about the... He was like, "Jesus never acted like that." And he said, "Yeah, but everybody he touched did."
CeCe: I love that.
Andrew: I mean, did you feel, well, one, did you know that you and your family members would have this kind of influence in a fairly tight knit, not tight knit, but tied up, you know, kind of.
CeCe: No, no, no.
Andrew: And did you receive that once you did realize.
CeCe: Well, I mean, when you start out, I mean, we started out as kids, BeBe and I, when we were on the PTL Club, I was probably about 17-years-old. And then we did our first… So as a young person, I mean, you know, you're called to do something, but you're excited about doing your first record. And it's like, oh my goodness. But then you realize the responsibility that comes with that. And then it hits you. It's like, oh, this is not about you. This is not about your name in lights. It's not about your singing or your song, but it's about the hearts that are out there.
And I remember receiving probably our first mail from a fan. And it was a young lady if I remember right. It was a young lady that said that she was contemplating suicide, but she heard our songs on the radio and decided to give life another try. So you read that and you're a kid yourself. And it's like, oh my God. But you realize, okay, this is what this is about. This is what this is about.
So we look back and, no, we never thought we would have the influence. We never thought, there's no way I could have thought of all the things that God has done since then, and you do it for him and you just do it day by day. And you, then you look back and it's like, wow, it's been a long time.
Mark: And then you have people come by: "My grandmother loves you." Do you get that?
CeCe: Definitely mother, grandmother, 10-years-old.
Mark: They walk up and say, "My grandmother loves you".
So you've made this new record with your son, who I adore your son, and you pitched a fit about it.
CeCe: Yes, I did.
Andrew: So you didn't want, did he come to you with the idea?
Mark: Tell the story.
CeCe: Oh yeah. He came to me with the idea maybe four years, five or four years prior to going into the studio. My son Alvin came and he said, "Mom, I got it." 'Cause I have been out of the studio for a long time. My husband and I started a church, and I just kind of put everything on hold so we could focus on the congregation. 'Cause that was something that we hadn't planned on doing, but God had another plan.
And so it had been almost, well, then was probably about eight years since I had new work out, and my son came and said, "Mom, I got it, I got it." I was like, "You have what?" "I have the whole thing, the whole idea of when you come back out, what you're gonna do and how you should do it. And it's gonna be incredible." And I was like, okay.
And Alvin's always been talented. I mean, he's always, he's a great writer, he's a visionary, all of that. And so he began to tell me what was the vision that he had, and right away, I was just like, what? I mean 'cause you hear the music now, and it's something that's totally different than I've ever done before. But he was like, "Mom, it’s going to touch your followers who have followed you for years. So it would get the older generation, and it's gonna touch my generation, and it's just gonna… Everything I'm gonna show you, you're gonna think it's out of style, but it's back in style." And I was like, really? "Yeah. Yeah. And we're gonna wrap it up in different sounds." And I was like, no, I don't think so.
Mark: Why, why was that offensive to you? I wonder.
CeCe: Well, it's just the sound. All the different sounds that he was creating.
Mark: On one project were too much.
CeCe: On one project, but it was just, and you know, when you look at my career, I do different things you know, but his was just a little bit out there for me.
Mark: Okay.
CeCe: So yeah, it was a little too different for me at first. And then I began to hear it and I listened, and when I got it, I got it. But I fought him for a while. We had very intense conversations. My son and daughter… I should've said my husband and daughter are witnesses. They were very intense. Cause he wanted to do it all live.
Mark: Well, he said that there was something in your voice that was different than the studio voice.
Andrew: But you sang on this record, you sang.
CeCe: See, he didn't want me to be safe. He didn't want me to be safe at all, just go for it. And he wanted that live, raw feel. And I was like, what? No, we're not gonna remix it and do all this stuff. We just wanna go in there, like they used to do years ago.
Andrew: Yeah, yeah.
CeCe: We came in and take that one take and go. And I'm like, absolutely not. And then he was just like, "Just trust me." And I'm like, I raised you. So why would I trust you, you know, but he was right.
You know, once I got it, I was like, oh, this is gonna be a lot of fun.
Andrew: Yeah.
CeCe: You know, it's easy to do what you're used to doing, but it takes guts, it takes faith, but it takes guts to step out and do something.
Mark: So there are no praise and worship songs on it.
CeCe: I think we do. I think we have a few, a couple, maybe "Marvelous." Yeah, "Marvelous." I heard a young lady do that at the service the other day. And it was an awesome worship song. And we have "Dancing in the Spirit." It's more of a church-ish feel, but then you got the big band sound, you know, it's a big band sound.
Andrew: Those horns and those strings.
CeCe: "He's Never Failed Me Yet." And all the, every time, you know, I would go in the studio and Alvin is a perfectionist, you know, so I had to humble myself. You know, when he pushed that button and said, "Mom, that's not good enough." Like what?
Mark: Would you say, "Well, how is it not good enough?" What do you want me to do different?"
Cece: "Do it again. No, try this. Do this, do that." And I did. I just started doing what he told me to do. And I was like, wow, this is different. These roles are turned around, but he was right. He's got an ear.
Andrew: What did that produce in you to push through that with your son? You know, I think about my parents and at this stage of life, and we're great friends, but there's not a dynamic where I don't think they'd like to work with me, you know. And I mean, they appreciate my work. I appreciate theirs. So what does that produce in you to actually stay in the game with him as he continued to try to persuade you.
CeCe: Well, once I got it, I got it. And then I knew that everything... It's funny because everything Alvin had he had it six years ago or four years prior, whatever the years were. And so I realized that once I saw him, he started directing the orchestra and everything that was happening, and I was like, he really has this vision, like every part of it down in his brain.
Andrew: Wow!
CeCe: And so I knew I needed to just submit, shut up and be quiet.
Andrew: Do you think there's like a spiritual picture though? When you think about this cross-generational effort.
CeCe: Oh definitely. Cause God is all about generations. He's never about just us, but he's a generational God, you know, and so there would be nights I would go home after the studio and I would just weep. Hearing some of the lyrics of the songs, you know, as a parent, you just pray that your kids get it, you know?
And like the first song, "He's Never Failed Me Yet," you know, it's just so powerful. One of the lyrics in there is, "Like the three Hebrew boys that they all forced to take their faith to flames, I too have had the choice to make, to serve the world instead, but I stood on the word and did not bow, endured the steps the Lord allowed, came out stronger shouting, wow, he's never failed."
“[God is] a generational God”
Mark: Oh wow.
CeCe: Right.
Mark: Yes.
CeCe: Right.
Mark: Yes.
CeCe: So you hear that, and I just weep. I was like, Lord, you're just so faithful. You're faithful to every generation. And yeah. So it ended up being one of the greatest experiences of my life.
Andrew: See, I'm hearing that lyric, I'm in my thirties, okay, so I'm hearing that lyric thinking, I'm still testing that a bit I'm still curious, you know. I think I believe from the experience I've had so far, he's never failed me yet, yes. But I still got a lot that I'm curious about. I still got a lot that's conflicting me, honestly. I don't know, I'm still, you know, I'm in a process of living it rather than being able to totally testify.
Mark: Well, learn to trust it now and then you are home free.
CeCe: Yeah, I mean that's why we're here. You know, it's to coach the younger generation that, look, he's been faithful. He can't fail, you know. And there's things that you won't receive until you get older, but there are things that you can receive right now.
Mark: What do you wish you knew when you were 30 that you know now?
CeCe: Oh my God, we don't have time. That's a big question. What about you?
Mark: I think trusting him. I think I wish I had known then how trustworthy he really is. I can abandon myself.
CeCe: Yes.
Mark: And then he'll catch me.
CeCe: That's right. That's right.
Andrew: So you'd be more relaxed, do you think, or less anxious?
CeCe: Definitely.
Mark: I don't have anything to prove anymore. You know, I mean not really.
CeCe: Right, no.
Mark: I'm trying to end a career, not start one.
CeCe: Right.
Mark: And so I don't mind saying what I'm thinking.
CeCe: That's right.
Mark: But I do hope it's shrouded with grace.
CeCe: It is.
Mark: I wanna love people, you know. Like I've seen you love him. And one thing I love about you, since -- go ahead and take a bite – is your smile. You have a smile… And I was just talking about that with Reba Rambo the other day, about how she always smiles when she sings. And I think that is half the battle with an audience. Yeah. They walk out smiling. Like I'm here to love on you tonight, not to hurt you but to bless you. And you have done that.
Now with this church, what were you thinking? How did God lead you? And how did God tell y'all to do this?
CeCe: Okay.
Mark: And you're sure it was him.
CeCe: We're still in our right mind. So that's a good sign. And we're still doing good.
Mark: And it's mainly millennials going to your church.
CeCe: Yes, yes. But I'll tell you that… Ooh, okay. We've been a church now for almost six years.
Mark: Okay.
CeCe: So prior to starting, probably, I don't know, maybe 15 years before, my husband and I were going to our church that we've been going to for years, Born Again Church. We love 'em. Hi, everybody. And it was a lady there running a revival, you know, and she prayed over us and she prayed over my husband, my husband Alvin. And I heard her say, "Pastor." And when I heard the word pastor, I promise y'all I didn't even realize. It got out before I even thought. I just hollered out, "Oh no."
Mark: You're kidding me. That is hysterical.
CeCe: And I put my hand over my mouth. I was like, oh my God. If it's God, I could get struck, you know. Right here. And so that was the first time we heard it, but it didn't move my husband at all.
Mark: Did it move you?
CeCe: It moved me just because I just never heard that. And I just never thought that.
Mark: But you heard it from this lady.
CeCe: I heard it from this lady.
Mark: But you trust that it was from the Lord through her?
CeCe: No, not at that moment. But it just when you said, if it moved me, I was just like, oh.
Mark: Okay.
CeCe: You know, it's almost like you tuck it in the back of your mind, you know.
Andrew: And there was immediately a feeling of responsibility in a sense of if this is true, this is heavy.
CeCe: I was just like...
Mark: Like, please no, God.
CeCe: It was, it was, it was. Just because I just never thought that.
Mark: Well, you have seen what pastors go through too.
CeCe: I don't even know if it was that. It's just, I just never thought that this would be the case.
Mark: Never felt called.
CeCe: Never felt called to that. You know, we love people.
Mark: Right?
CeCe: You love God, you love people. And really you find out later that's really what pastoring is all about.
Mark: Right?
CeCe: So I think a lot of times we add things to things that have nothing to do with the call.
Andrew: Yeah, to me, it doesn't seem like such a...
CeCe: Far thing.
Andrew: No, far-fetched evolution or something.
CeCe: But it was so far-fetched to us in our mind. And it didn't bother him at all. He was like, "CeCe, I'll probably walk on the moon before I ever pastor. So don't even be uptight about it." You know, I was just like, okay. And sure enough, we heard nothing else. We felt nothing else. We went on living our lives like normal. And of course, we always say, Lord, whatever your will is, we want your will.
Andrew: Right.
CeCe: 'Cause you know what's best. So let's fast forward to maybe five years prior to starting the church. We started getting prophecies everywhere we went. I mean, strangers would come up to you, "You started your church yet?" And I was like.
Mark: You are kidding.
CeCe: No, I'm not kidding.
Mark: What kind of church are you involved with? I have never heard anybody walk up to me and prophecy.
CeCe: If I go sing somewhere…
Mark: Are you Baptist? I thought you were Baptist. No, you must be Pentacostal. See, Baptists, we never hear from God.
Andrew: I don't know if I've ever felt a nudge.
Mark: No really, seriously. I've never had anyone come and say, "Hey, God's... You're gonna pastor."
CeCe: Oh yeah.
Mark: How many did you have do that?
CeCe: Oh, it was ridiculous. It's like everywhere I went. Even the week that BeBe and I were getting stars on the Hollywood walk of fame, right,
Mark: Right.
CeCe: A man came up and prayed for us. He was actually like the manager at the Beverly Hills Hotel. And he, he knew a friend of mine. He was like, "Can we pray for you?" And then we were like, okay. So he prayed for us. And he started prophesying, and he saw all these young people and all the things that God was gonna do. And at that time, we were still like, what is he talking about? You know. But yeah, we were at another church singing, and a man came up to my husband, always going to Alvin.
Mark: Does God not know how to reach you directly? Why would he not reach you directly?
CeCe: Well, I guess he knows us. So as that kept going, we were like, what in the world is going on? And actually, it wasn't until we started praying about it. You know, a lot of times God can tell you stuff, and you don't feel it, you don't see it, but you owe him enough to at least start praying about it and asking him to reveal it in our hearts and make it plain and make it clear. And so we started doing that. We talked to our pastors, and they were like, "We're gonna pray with you." We just said, "This keeps coming up. What in the world is going on?" I mean, it was just, you couldn't ignore it.
Mark: Did it start to build an urge in you to do it?
CeCe: No.
Mark: Why is that funny?
CeCe: No, you just said "did it start" because I said, no, it didn't start an urge in him, it didn't start an urge in me. So, we're praying about it. But still just tucked in our mind, just, you know, "Lord, whatever it is, just show it to us." But we keep living our lives.
So my son Alvin goes to Australia. He tells us he wants to try living abroad. So he went to Australia. Melbourne, Australia. And I was like, why are you going so far? I mean, what have we done to you for you to live that far? So he went, and he called. He said, "Mom, a friend of mine is going to this ministry school. It's a short... Well, it's a long-term commitment." And he says, "Should I go?" And I was like, "Well, Alvin." He went to the small church in Melbourne. Melbourne, Australia. And I said, "Well, Alvin you're there. You just got there. You don't have a car or anything yet. You're still, you know, getting things in order. Just go. Your friend goes to this church. Just go. If you don't like it, you can get out of it."
Well, make a long story short, God just transformed his life. He called me, and I knew when he called me that he was totally different. So I went from praying, "Lord, bring my son home," to, "Lord, he can stay there as long as he wanted to say." Because I could tell in his conversation that God had just got a hold to his heart. He's always been a great kid, but it was definitely somebody totally different on that side of the phone.
Mark: Cool.
CeCe: And when he came back from Australia, my father had passed, and he came back actually for that funeral, he started talking to his friends, and he wanted his friends to be saved and get filled with the Holy Spirit. And so he just started a revival, and he asked us if we would hold a class for some of his friends at our house.
Mark: How neat.
CeCe: And so we were like, "Sure, Alvin. What do you wanna do?" He said, "I want them to experience what I experienced in Australia." And I was like, "Well, how are they gonna do that?" He said, "I'm gonna call Pastor Bram and Dianne Manusama." That was, that was their names.
Andrew: I thought that was y'all's new names.
CeCe: No. But, "And see if they'll come and run the class." It's called...
Mark: From Australia.
CeCe: From Australia. See if they'll come to the house and run the class, a week long class. It was called Discipleship Ministry School. DMS is what they called it. And so he called them, and they said, "Sure, we'll come." I mean, they didn't ask for anything. They were like, "Yes, we'll come. We believe God is doing something in you, and we'll come." And they came. Alvin got on the phone, text some of his friends to come.
Mark: And they came?
CeCe: And they came. It was probably, I don't know, maybe about 40 people that ended up at the house. Young people, totally diverse crowd. A lot of them were his friends from Belmont University he went to school with. And all I can say is that their lives were changed.
Mark: Really.
CeCe: Drastically.
Mark: Like you sat in on this meeting too?
CeCe: Oh, of course.
Mark: What was different about that?
CeCe: When they came, the way these incredible people taught the Word. As you know, growing up in the church all my life, I could just hear the Holy Spirit telling me to sit back and just watch, forget about everything you think you know, and sit back and watch.
Mark: Really?
CeCe: And that's what I did in my living room.
Mark: What did you learn?
CeCe: Well, I learned that the way they taught, they just kind of met this generation where they were, you know. It was very simple, very relational, you know. It wasn't about God being so far away. That generation, your generation, they really don't care about all the different, what do you say, all the different protocols,
Andrew: Sure, or even doctrine.
CeCe: All of that. They just want a relationship with Jesus.
Andrew: Which is really, when you think about it, that's really getting back…
CeCe: To what it should be.
Mark: I want that too.
Food for the Hungry Sponsorship Message
Mark: You can help save thousands of lives by giving a generous gift to Food for the Hungry today.
Andrew: In the rural Dera district of Ethiopia, families are experiencing high death rates in children under five due to preventable water-related diseases. They simply don't have access to clean water sources or the infrastructure to practice good health and hygiene.
Mark: Until now. We're talking latrines, Andrew. Your gift today will provide families in the Dera district with clean water, health and hygiene training, hand washing stations, and lifesaving latrines. And to add to the impact, your gift will be matched 22 times, 22 times.
Andrew: It’s a wonderful opportunity, Mark. Food for the Hungry is already laying the groundwork now to provide a safe place to live for hundreds of thousands of vulnerable children and their families in Ethiopia. I think of Jesus's own words in the Gospels where he says, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself." The people of Ethiopia, Mark, they matter to God. And so they matter to us too. Will you help us let them know they are important to God and to their neighbors across the ocean? That's us.
Mark: Give generously today at fh.org/dinner. We're so excited that you'll be giving that we wanna give something to you. We have several add-ons, we call them, where we will be maybe making a special phone call to a friend of yours, a video.
Andrew: It's a little video, that's right, as shoutout videos for your friend's birthday or for an anniversary, or maybe like a Zoom conversation with just you, Mark, and me, or even a Zoom party with you and some of your friends. All these are just a simple way to say thank you for the life-saving gift that you're giving to Food for the Hungry, for our friends in Ethiopia, at fh.org/dinner.
The Abide Bible Sponsorship Message
Mark: The Bible is the foundation of our theology. We would not know of Jesus if it weren't for the Bible. We wouldn't know about grace. We wouldn't know about how God cares for us. And there is a new Bible out called the Abide Bible. You know how Jesus said, if you abide in me as I abide in my father, and we abide in each other, and it's just a continual feed off each other. And what I like about this Bible is it's asking us to go deeper.
Andrew: Yeah, it's taking an approach to the Bible from being just simply informational to really being invitational. So there's a lot of prompts in this Bible to journal alongside Scriptures. It gives you opportunity to pray certain Scriptures at different seasons of your life, to meditate on the Scripture. There's beautiful artwork in here that's really cool cause it's not just like some kind of Sunday school artwork. They're using like da Vinci and beautiful pieces of classic art to really just get us to imagine, to be able to use all of our senses as we enter into Scripture, so that we really step into the story of Scripture, not just see it as words on a page but as part of a living, breathing active part of our lives. And you know what? I asked my brother one time, who's a pastor, I said, "Why is the Bible so important?" And he said exactly what you said a second ago, because it is the greatest written revelation of who God is. And so it gives us the opportunity to know God but also to be a part of God's story. That's the Abide Bible.
Mark: So go to abidebible.com to get your copy today.
CeCe Winans and Alvin Love III performing “Looking Up”
For the battle is the Lord's
I'm not ashamed to celebrate
Stand and testify
'Cause every time I call that name
I know the victory is mine
I'm looking up, I'm looking up
I'm looking up to where my help comes from
All of my problems are below you
All that I need is in the palm of your hands
Looking up, looking up
I'm looking up, I'm looking up
To where my help comes from
All of my problems are below you
All that I need is in the palm of your hands
Tell me where, tell me where
Is my help, is my help
Coming from, coming from
It's coming from the Lord
It's coming from the Lord
Tell me where, tell me where
Is my help, is my help
Coming from, coming from
It's coming from the Lord
It's coming from the Lord
It's coming from the Lord
It's coming from the Lord
Healing is coming from the Lord
It's is coming from the Lord
Salvation is coming from the Lord
It's coming from the Lord
Oh, it's coming from the Lord
It's coming from the Lord
Tell me where, tell me where
Is my help, is my help
Coming from, coming from
It's coming from the Lord
It's coming from the Lord
It's coming from the Lord
It's coming from the Lord
Andrew: We're sitting here in the future home, the soon to be future home, of Nashville Life Church. There's construction going on all around. We're in the middle of the energy of the church that you now, you were just installed as lead pastor.
Alvin: Yes, sir.
Andrew: Just a few weeks ago. In fact, your own journey was really the impetus for the genesis of this.
Alvin: I like that. Yeah, I'll take note.
Andrew: Well, take me back to the story. Tell me your story. Tell me the Alvin Love story that brought you up to a place where you and your friends are meeting, you know, as a house church that began this church we're in.
Alvin: 2008 I moved. No, 2009. I was out of college, out of Belmont, which we both graduated from. A year, I was out for a year, and I moved to Australia just to try something different. I was pretty unmotivated. I grew up in Nashville, and I kinda wanted to shake things up, and I wasn't in the best place. In fact, I was in a bad place of just my own personal life and didn't have a lot of drive, a lot of vision. So I figured if I go somewhere else, it might kind of refresh my sense of existence and life. But it wasn't really exclusively like for Christian or faith purposes. It was really just because I wasn't that engaged with my faith. That's probably putting it nicely.
Andrew: Is that because of your growing up experience or...
Alvin: So much of my church involvement and faith involvement was because my parents drove me and I had no way of getting around. So when I got that independence, it was really a revelation that, man, I'm not really working with a lot for like Alvin. And I kind of ran and got it to all kinds of sin and just lived life that you live when you're not following Jesus And that's where I was when I went to Australia and ended up finding a church. I wasn't planning on going to a church, but someone that I met invited me and I didn't know anybody in the whole country. So I figured I would. Or continent. So I figured I would, yeah, go meet some people.
Andrew: And it was that kind of… Was it a pretty surface reception as far as, yeah, I'll go to church with you 'cause it seemed like you're trying to get away from everything you kind of knew before.
Alvin: Right. When I was invited, I didn't really wanna go 'cause in my mind I had been there and done that. I was, at 23, arrogant enough to think that I've seen everything that church can offer. And I remember having the thought, well, at least you can go meet some people. So I went solely just for a social motive, and jokes on me, ended up being this really impactful service, the message, the worship, all of it like pricked my heart in a big way. And the events of that service convinced me to stay for nine months. I was only planning on staying there for three months max. And turns out, that was the first Sunday for a class that they offered, a discipleship class, that was a nine-month commitment. And something about that day, I was so convicted and so compelled by whatever happened that I called my family and said I was gonna stay for nine months and had my life changed and came home to Nashville and just couldn't shut up about the experience.
My roommate kinda caught on, and then we start to tag team into our friends and people started coming over to the house and asking if they could get prayer. And I'm like, what? Because I mean, I wasn't even really going to church prior to this, let alone praying for people at my house. I would Skype my pastors in Australia and be like, "Are we allowed to do this?" Like, we're just these guys.
Andrew: Sure, yeah.
Alvin: And they were like, "Yes, yes." Because they're really big on empowering the believer. And they're... So much of what they do is saying it shouldn't just be the pastor or the staff. Like we all should be making disciples. We all should be leading people to Jesus.
So word got around our circle of friends that Alvin and Trey, who was my roommate, kind of turned into these radicals. And we were seeing people healed. We were seeing people like coming to Jesus, like things that we just never thought could come through us was happening, and it blew us away. And then it got too big for our house, so I asked my parents if we could meet over at their house. And before we knew it, we had this community, and we were calling it anything but a church. We were calling it like hang, fellowship, prayer, worship night. We would not let that word come up.
Andrew: Still a little bit of like...
Alvin: Oh, absolutely.
Andrew: Residue, right.
Alvin: Absolutely. My parents, their house was on the market. They were moving to California. They were moving to Orange County. So like starting a church in Nashville, my dad was, you know, 65 at the time. Like that was nowhere on their radar. But they had been getting prophecies since like '95 that they were gonna pastor a church. And they would like graciously nod their head, But inside they're like, that's not happening because my dad's a real laid back, kinda just behind-the-scenes guy. Mom sings. They just didn't think that made sense. But dad's prayer was, "God, if you want this to happen, you've gotta make it so obvious that a blind man could see it." And he said when he saw 80 people in his living room, he said, he felt God say, "How much more obvious do you want me to make it?" And that day, that night, they announced that they were gonna start a church. It was March 2012.
Andrew: I mean, think about that. Like your dad saying, "I'm gonna need kind of this writing on the wall." But his son, who I'm sure your parents being in relationship with you, and I remember your mom talking a little bit about this, kind of being an observation of your life, just interested in where this is gonna end up spiritually. Then that you have your own spiritual experience, unexpected spiritual awakening, that then intersects with your parents' calling that they've somewhat been, they've been resistant in their own way. You've been resistant to faith, they've been resistant of a calling, that you would be the motivation for that writing on the wall.
Alvin: So strange.
Andrew: Did anyone ever think?
Alvin: No, like when I think back in retrospect, I think of the same thing. Like these two plots kind of like intersected because I thought my story was just independent. Little did I know that that story was meant to be a kind of ignition to this other story that's been going on even before with my parents. And then there was just this kind of colliding of my faith and the fire that came out of nowhere that I didn't know why it was there, but now I do understand. Yeah, it's very wild.
Andrew: Do you feel like Australia, in hindsight when you look at it, do you feel like you were really actually more driven, you know, by spiritual motivations than you knew?
Alvin: That's a great question. I've always said my trip to Australia really kind of flipped my whole theology upside down because, in the moment, there was nothing that was like, God is leading me to Australia. If anything, it was this is me breaking away doing my own thing. And the concept and hindsight of the time that I thought I was actually straying from the path the most is when I was walking right dead smack in the middle of God's will for my life. And of course, I've gone down rabbit trails of like, did God lead me to Australia? Or it was that just the sovereignty of God? If I had picked France, would that have happened to me in France? If I'd picked Wyoming, would it have happened in Wyoming? Like, you know, you could go and start thinking about that stuff. And then you realize it's just not getting you anywhere, but I've definitely thought through like, man, how did that happen? 'Cause if anything, I thought I was kind of rebelling and maybe doing the prodigal situation, and right within a week, I'm in the presence of God being called to follow him and represent him. So, I don't know. I can't really make sense of it.
Andrew: I was listening to one of your sermons yesterday. And so the theme for Nashville Life Church in this season is... I've got it right… I wanna get this right. It is, I am--
Alvin: A life giver.
Andrew: I am a life giver. And one of the quotes that I wrote down that you said, which I really liked, and the idea is that we're not just saved, that's not the end game. Salvation is not the end game, but we are here to be really agents of change through the gospel of Jesus in us, right? Okay, but I love what you said here. You said, "The cross doesn't just save us but enables us to help save others."
Alvin: That's right.
Andrew: Explain that.
Alvin: Second Corinthians, chapter five. A lot of times we quote this one part, but after it, I realized we were really kind of brushing over the coolest part in my opinion, but it says, you know, "Anyone who's in Christ is a new creation. Old has past. Behold, all has become new," which is awesome. That's the quoted one.
And then it says, "And then he's entrusted to us the ministry of reconciliation." And it talks about how we're ambassadors for him and how God makes his appeal through us. I'm like, there's this whole backend to the faith that I don't hear enough of. Like I definitely wasn't living it. I came from the mindset of you get saved and then you just pretty much wait to go to heaven. And if that was the case, you know, that really is a buzzkill for the rest of my life, especially if you get saved at 5-years-old. Like...
Andrew: Sure.
Alvin: What's the rest of your life? And to me, I had to learn that salvation isn't the end, it's the beginning. It's the new birth. Like you're just born when you come to Jesus. And then if you look at that analogy, you know, when you're born, that's the beginning of life. So now what? And my pastors in Australia, Dianne and Bram Manusama, pastors of Melbourne Life, They used to always say we spend so much emphasis on what we've been saved from opposed to what we've been saved for. I hear so many people say, especially people who've been raised in church, they get that sense of I just feel like there's more, and they let, I don't know, that's, that can be very frustrating if you don't know what that is to the point to where some people leave the church because if this is all there is, then no, thanks, you know.
Andrew: Well, it's kind of interesting. I wonder if those people's response actually – that kind of, no thanks, there's gotta be more – is actually a result of us, and that could be whoever, in the church historically, and I think especially in the Bible Belt type church, making the gospel me-centric, which says salvation is the end game, instead of Jesus-centric, which says he is saving us for the effort of redemption of the entire world, in my perspective. So--
Alvin: That was really good. I love that.
Andrew: Thank you. You can watch the tape later and create some sermons from it if you like. I think I'm sensing a calling. You do not want me to be a pastor. I don't have...
Alvin: Do you preach?
Andrew: No. I mean, I preach in a way, but not… I don't have a theological backbone, so it's like I want everyone to go to heaven. So, you know, it's like, I can't be a preacher.
Alvin: Oh, whatever.
Andrew: Yeah. I know, but you probably believe not everybody. Well, I'm not there yet.
Alvin: Oh my God. Well then maybe you shouldn't. That's a pretty fundamental thing.
Andrew: Yeah, it is. I'm not denying the fundamental of it, okay. I'm just not denying myself.
Alvin: Okay. Well said. So you're further than you think.
Andrew: Yeah, just need to go to Australia. Okay. Go back to the ministry of rec...that we have been entrusted with the ministry of reconciliation. How so?
Alvin: I believe through the Holy Spirit. I think, you know how toys, they say "each sold separately," and there's this whole idea of you get this and you get this. I believe that with salvation comes the ministry of reconciliation with... Almost like if I give you 20 bucks, now you have money to give. Like with that gift came the ability to now give to others. And I think that's how it works with God. Like pay it forward because I've been given it.
Like Scripture says, "To much is given much is required," right? So that's the part, that's the responsibility that comes with blessings. A lot of times we'll be talking about the benefit of blessings. We don't talk about the responsibility of blessings. You know, if I've been given a gift, now I'm accountable to use that gift for the benefit of others. And I think salvation is the same as 20 bucks or anything else. It's a gift that, now with that reconciliation that we have with God, we now have a connection that other people can benefit from. And God is holding us responsible to share this reconciliation, this connection, that we all have because that's what Jesus did.
Jesus had this tight relationship with the Father, but he didn't just keep it to himself. He said, "Hey, I'm gonna let you guys in on this relationship too. Everything that I have I'm gonna share it with you." And he wants us to continue in that same spirit. Now that we've been brought into this incredible father-son, father-daughter relationship with God, don't keep it for yourself. Bring other people, bring other people to the table as well. So that's kind of how.
Andrew: Yeah. It sounds elementary. But in the culture we live in today, to believe and then to get motivated behind the fact that the truth that we as followers of Jesus have not only been entrusted with but that we have been given the skillsets to be in the ministry of reconciliation, really that's a contrast today more than maybe ever before, at least in our knowledge.
Alvin: I preach that message every week in this culture. So I know the resistance. I know the fixed mindsets, the barriers. Honestly, particularly within people who've been in church the longest. The new converts get it like that. Like at our church, if you got saved at our church, within weeks you're making disciples. It's the ones who've been on the deacon board for this long and they were here and they ran Vacation Bible School and they have all the experience. Sometimes that can be, I don't know, it can give this, I don't know, it's you get stuck or you get set in a certain way.
And that's why I feel like our calling, at least for Nashville Life… We, you know, I believe we have a dual calling. It's for the lost, but it's also to like the stagnant believer and that's kinda like thought that this is the end. And I'm like, no, there's so much more. And I love doing both. I feel like that's pretty much... Nashville Life touches the person who's been saved since birth and just realizing, oh my God, my eyes are open to a whole new dimension of this, of this relationship with God. And then the person who's like, "Who's Jesus?" You know, I think that's kind of our church. We've kinda got this spectrum and then this, yeah.
Andrew: That's... To be able to have that interacting with one another, that requires an element of sacrifice, of surrender on everyone's part. For me to be patient with the person who says, "My experience is done," and for that person to say, "Okay, maybe my experience is not finished." You know, that's to me that's the dynamic of a healthy church, even when there's tension.
Alvin: That's it.
Andrew: And I don't think that's toxic.
Alvin: Aw man. Not at all. Like you're right. I love... I think I've seen in our church the new convert really serves as inspiration and accountability for like the old heads or people like who've been walking with God for a long time and then vice versa. There's mutual things that people can learn from each other. And that tension is so beneficial.
And on the other side of it is, culturally too, like our church is pretty much half and half, Black and white. And that's been a cool benefit too because there's a tension of these different cultures. But when we humble ourselves and when we use patience and the things that Scripture teaches us to dwell in community, it really ends up producing this beautiful result.
Andrew: Yeah.
Alvin: Yeah.
Andrew: Well, it has been cool to be here in the middle of even the energy of this construction as y'all are building lives within a city. You know, that's kind of symbolic of what's happening.
Alvin: Yeah, I think so too. I actually just wrote that in a letter. I was like, I think what's happening in the building is symbolic or a representation or a reflection of what's happening with our church.
Andrew: Yeah.
Alvin: Yeah.
Andrew: I love it.
Alvin: Thank you.
Andrew: Well, you're welcome. I'm so glad you got so much good content from me.
Alvin: Oh, yes. You're blessing me.
Andrew: Now you know what you need to do with that blessing?
Alvin: Give it back to someone else.
Andrew: Someone else. Yes, someone else.
Alvin: I don't know if you wanted me to give you like an offering or something.
Andrew: Yeah, you can. Do you want me to give you my Venmo?
Alvin: Yeah, I'll Venmo you. But I'll pay it forward too.
Andrew: Okay. Okay, deal. Alright. Thanks, Alvin.
Alvin: Absolutely.
The Faithful Project
Mark: Women have been very important in my journey to know Jesus. First of all my mother, who would tuck me into bed at night, tell me God's gonna use me. My grandmothers were so important to me. And then some of the women in our church, like Delores Sims. You've never heard of her, but she would always woo me to Jesus. And did you know that women were the first ones that learned that Jesus had risen from the dead? And then they went back, told the men, the men didn't believe it until they saw him for themselves. But women have been very important in the message of the Gospel and this new project called Faithful, which is a CD and book.
Andrew: So many of our good friends and people that you have read their literature or you've heard their music, people like Amy Grant and Kelly Minter and Jenny Owens, Sandra McCracken, Sally Lloyd Jones, Trillia Newbell, there's so many wonderful authors and artists, and here's the cool part. They all got together to write about the women of the Bible and then write songs about how women are a part of continuing to share the story of the gospel all throughout history into today, but the artists and the authors combined efforts. So artists, musicians, were writing some of the chapters and authors were helping write some of the music, which I think it's just this shared experience to say that the telling and sharing of the Gospel, the story of God, is written in each of our lives to share and tell to others just like you.
When I think about who first shared the real nuts and bolts of the Gospel, it was women. And so this Faithful Project celebrates that, highlights that, and offers an opportunity, not just for women but also for men, to be invited into that conversation as well. To learn more about the book and the music project called Faithful, go to faithfulproject.com.
Visit Dinner-Conversations.com for DVDs, CDs, and more!
Mark: Did you know that at dinner-conversations.com, we have a store. We have been around long enough to produce products.
Andrew: That you want.
Mark: You want this. A Dinner Conversations mug to hold your eight ounces of coffee in the morning, or less. And then one if you wanna look at us. See how intellectual I look with my glasses.
Andrew: You look like you're judging me.
Mark: Well, I am. It gives me that intellectual look.
Andrew: We also have DVDs full of all of our episodes and a bunch of bonus content you can't find anywhere else. We've got this Season One DVD with all kinds of guests, like Sandi Patty and Chonda Pierce and Point of Grace. And we've got this Season Two DVD set. I mean, these are tons of disks, Kathie Lee Gifford, Montell Jordan, Scott Hamilton, Amy Grant. And you know what else we have? We have the Songs from the Set CD where we sing a little bit together, but also, you'll hear a lot of songs from people like Russ Taff and The Isaacs, some of our very favorites. You can find all of that at dinner-conversations.com.
Andrew: So in this generation, yes, desiring this pure or direct relationship with God through Jesus, right? At the same time, like I think about songs on your record, songs like "Hey Devil," you know, which is so much fun. If I heard those words in any other context, my little millennial spirit might be offended. You know what I'm saying though? Because like devil and hell is a bit taboo for us, I think, because we're wanting to hug everybody into the Kingdom a little bit. How do you feel? I mean, is that part of your pastoral role in some ways or just a shepherding role from your generation...
Mark: You still believe in hell?
CeCe: Oh yes.
Mark: Alright.
CeCe: The Bible says there is a hell.
Mark: Yeah.
CeCe: So there's one there.
Andrew: So what do we do at those counter-cultural conversations? Like, I don't know what to do with it sometimes, you know, like I'm not gonna preach hell, fire, and brimstone, yet I do want to believe the truth and I want to embody the truth.
Mark: Hell will get your attention. I think the fear of God will get your attention, but the love of God will constrain you.
“The fear of God will get your attention, but the love of God will constrain you.”
CeCe: Very good.
Mark: Right.
CeCe: Yeah.
Mark: And so I never even think about hell. Do you?
CeCe: No.
Mark: Hell is irrelevant to me.
CeCe: Exactly.
Mark: 'Cause I'm not going.
CeCe: We're not going. It's not made for us.
Mark: Yeah.
CeCe: You focus on the love of God. And I think that definitely I've had to learn how to minister to the millennials without compromising the truth because there's only the truth that's gonna set anybody free. You know, but focusing on the love of God, maybe more than what they did growing up with us, even though it worked for us.
“There’s only the truth that’s gonna set anybody free.”
Mark: Right.
CeCe: Right, we're still here.
Mark: Right.
Andrew: Right. Interesting, yeah.
CeCe: But God does know how to reach everybody and he wants to reach everybody, and we have to be willing to do things different. You know, I never thought I would go to church casual. That would be like, what? You're not dressing up going to church? But you come to Nashville Life and they're in their jeans and their T-shirt, and it's like Holy Spirit's like, this is really okay.
Mark: Ain't that funny, he still has to tell us?
CeCe: Exactly. So it's you have to be willing to do… And it's just being lit of the Holy Spirit. You know, he is love.
Mark: Is how they look more important than reaching them?
CeCe: Exactly.
Mark: You know, forget it. We're going for the heart.
CeCe: We're going for the heart. And that's what we see. We have incredible young people who are in love with Jesus, and they're sharing the gospel. They're making disciples.
Mark: Are you reaching out to the older folks in your area?
CeCe: Of course. We want everybody there. We're not forgetting, but going back to Alvin, it's just like when we started the church, I mean, we started out of that. Forty people came.
Mark: Bible study.
CeCe: And then we did it again, and still, my husband and I, we're still not saying we're pastors. We are like, "God bless you, young people. Go home. If you don't have a church, find a church and just stay on fire for God," because they were... They really did...
Mark: How many ended up in… How many you got in your church now?
CeCe: Probably about 300. Still very small. It is incredible because each life, the way we're doing discipleship, we're focusing on each person. So that they would be strong in the faith.
Mark: You know, 300 is huge to focus on every one of them.
CeCe: Yes.
Andrew: Yeah, that's a large responsibility.
CeCe: And the setup that we have...
Mark: How are you balancing that and your career?
CeCe: That's probably my biggest challenge these days.
Mark: Do you make hospital visits?
CeCe: Yes.
Andrew: Is that what you consider this?
CeCe: No, I do, but we have life groups, which are great.
Mark: Yeah.
Andrew: Yeah.
CeCe: And so it takes, you know, they're there at the hospital before we get there, you know, so everybody's taken care of.
Andrew: The church is taking care of itself.
CeCe: Yeah. It's awesome. But then, of course, we'll go too, so it's been amazing. But that's my biggest challenge because before this latest record, I had just been focusing on a church. So I had never did all the CeCe Winans, and then the pastor CeCe is like, "Oh my God, how am I gonna do this?" So I just have to balance it. Well, I don't go as much as I would have normally gone, if I wasn't pastoring. I'm trying to be home on Sundays. And which I've heard of a lot of artists who have done that over the years and have done it well. I think Casting Crowns.
Mark: Right, I was just thinking how Mark—
Andrew: Hall.
CeCe: Yeah. And so it's a few people who do it, and I was like, "Okay, Lord, if you called me to do it and you haven't told me to stop doing what I do globally, then you work it out."
Mark: Can you tell that what you have going on in your church has affected how you minister?
Andrew: Yeah, what goes on on stage?
CeCe: Yeah, I think so.
Mark: You have more sympathy for pastors and their wives. You know, you might be able to relate to them.
CeCe: I think as an artist, it's almost like an evangelist compared to a pastor. You go in as an artist and you deliver this message and they're blessed by it and you're blessed by it and you leave and you go somewhere else. But understanding, and I've always understood this because I've always been so connected to a local church, and a lot of people don't understand the importance of a local church, to make sure you're being poured into week by week, to make sure you're covered, to make sure you're submitted and that you have relationships with people, you're being discipled is so important. So now that we've been pastoring, I understand it even more so how important it is.
And so, yeah, I think it's changed me a lot as far as seeing the importance of encouraging those I'm singing to to be in church, you know, to live a life that is balanced. You know, to walk with Jesus every day, you know, not just during a conference or during an exciting concert, but what are you doing on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday because those are the things that are gonna keep you standing years and years later.
Andrew: And you know, when you think about even segueing songs, I know there's songs you choose based on there's people in the audience who've listened to you for years, and they're gonna want to hear certain things of course, and those have profound messages too, but then tying them together with,
I need thee every hour, you know and just start, that kinda thing. And literally, like the mood and the temperature of the place changes.
Mark: Don't you find that with hymns when you drag a hymn out?
CeCe: Nothing more powerful.
Mark: Are you seeing that the millennials are leaving the hymns behind? Or are they bringing them with them?
CeCe: Some of them are, but I'm tryna make sure they bring them with them. Because even in our church, our young people, when they're up there doing worship, he'll bring it. He'll bring a hymn in.
Mark: Good.
CeCe: Almost every Sunday, not every Sunday, but in his lineup of songs, he'll have it there.
Andrew: This may sound like a weird question, but what's a hymn that you feel like is still standing, that you're still seeing it used in as effective in Nashville Life Church? Is there one that comes to mind?
Mark: Is there one that just pops out at you when you're up there? I mean, like I have a song. There's a song that I'm just around the house, right? Just me alone. One always comes out of it.
CeCe: Really what?
Mark: Thank you Lord for saving my soul
CeCe: Yeah.
Mark: I don't know why.
CeCe: That's the best. Yeah, I mean, I sing a lot of the, the older songs. I don't know if they're really in the hymn books, but you know, like for instance, "He's Never Failed Me Yet." Even though that's a new song that my son wrote, but I remember the old mothers singing.
He's never failed me yet
He's never failed me yet
Jesus Christ has never failed me yet
Everywhere I go
I want the world to know
Jesus Christ has never failed me yet
Mark: I never heard that one.
CeCe: See.
Mark: That's not from our tradition.
Andrew: I didn't hear it the first time.
CeCe: So it's those songs like that that stir up in me all the time.
Mark: When I had my MRI, it was "Blessed assurance, Jesus is mine. Oh, what a foretaste of glory divine." It wasn't one of the new. Because I'm older, right? And I try to tell people my age, if you don't get those new songs, look at the young people. They're getting it. And I can get blessed watching them. I don't have to sit there and judge it because it doesn't rhyme correctly.
CeCe: Right.
Andrew: Well, music will always have a place in our relationship with God as disciples I think. There's a way that it translates from our mind to our heart. A melody, that lyric, it then connects it for me.
“Music will always have a place in our relationship with God as disciples.”
CeCe: Yeah.
Andrew: I mean, I often think I wonder if I would have been introduced to God without music. I wonder, even though I grew up in church, even though I grew up with parents who loved God, it was music and is music in my most lonely moments.
CeCe: Well, you know, music was created to bring glory and honor to God and to bring us to God. It really is the way we worship him. That's pretty spectacular.
Mark: It's what separates us, one of the things, from the animals. We can sing, right?
CeCe: Yeah.
Andrew: Birds.
CeCe: Well, the birds do sing.
Mark: Edit that.
Andrew: I have one more question for you. You can't leave without one more. Submission. I just wanna ask this because I've heard you say submit even today a couple of times. I've heard you say it before. That is not a popular term.
CeCe: Oh no, not in your generation at all.
Mark: Or with women in general. The submit to your husband thing, I used to browbeat Gloria Gaither with that.
Andrew: Do you rally behind that? I can't wait to submit.
Well, but so reframing. I mean, language is important.
Mark: Submit yourselves one to another too.
CeCe: I think that's why I'm blessed today because I understood. They taught us about submission, what it really meant, because it's God's idea. You know, we can't change what God already put in place. You know, he has an order.
Mark: Submission to who?
CeCe: I submitted to my pastors, you know, even when I disagreed. It's like, you know what, they're older than me for a reason, so let me submit. I submitted to my parents.
Mark: Okay.
CeCe: I submitted to my husband, you know. Thank God, I mean, he understands that we're a team together, but he's the head. That's what the Bible says, you know. And then, like you said, submitting to one another, I submit to my brothers and sisters. It's like, and that's where harmony comes in.
Mark: If your husband is beating you, okay, now I'm serious because somebody that might be watching.
CeCe: Okay, this is good.
Mark: You don't submit to that.
CeCe: No, no.
Andrew: Because that's not true submission.
CeCe: That's not true submission. No, no, no. Somebody is beating you, then you need to get out of there.
Mark: You're supposed to submit. I could see someone using that Scripture abusively.
Andrew: Sure. We've used that in race tensions.
CeCe: Yes, yes, no, no. It's a loving...
Mark: If your husband would die for you like Christ died for the church, it's a lot easier to submit. When someone loves you unconditionally, what's to submit?
CeCe: Exactly.
Andrew: You hear that, Alvin?
Mark: He's asleep.
I've loved watching you through the years. I remember when I was at Liberty, I'd turn on my TV that I had hidden in the closet. I would watch PTL and your brother, and you blessed me for years. And I mean that.
CeCe: Thank you, Mark. You've blessed me too. You've kept us laughing.
Andrew: Yeah. I will say, too, as personal testimony, you literally impacted the way I saw racial unity within the church and without it, just because we didn't have that, I didn't have that experience at my fingertips.
Mark: You have crossed over.
Andrew: Yeah, and music allowed me to be introduced to that.
CeCe: Well, great. Great. Yeah.
I mean, I grew up in really an all Black church, you know. It really wasn't until we went to PTL.
Mark: That's what exposed you.
CeCe: That exposed me to more audiences. And 'cause I remember, it's funny. I remember the first time, BeBe and I, we sang in front of some church, I guess it was in Charlotte, and it was an all white church, and they just sat there and looked at us. And we were just singing our hearts, and we finished and we looked at each other, said, "Well, praise God. I'm glad we enjoyed it."
Mark: It's gotta be shocking.
CeCe: But afterwards, they were just weeping, they were just weeping. They were blessed by it, but it was just like, we're used to everybody howling at us. "Sing that song." Whoa. Okay. So that was God preparing us for where he was taking us, you know, and so it's been a blessing too, because one of the things I think we really miss out on is each other. We really miss out, being separated. And so it's been a blessing to be able to go all over the world and sing in front of everybody and see how God moves and loves everybody just the same. But also, I think we miss out on a lot because we're not more diverse. And so Nashville Life is very diverse. Thank you, Lord. And it was just him that did it, and it's remained that way.
Andrew: Yeah.
Mark: So what's the sin that easily besets you? I'm digging deep, y'all.
Andrew: I'm usually the one who crosses a thousand lines, and Marks like, oh my God.
Mark: I mean, seriously, like I asked Janet Paschal one time.
CeCe: I've been interviewed for years, and I've never been asked a question like this. That's pretty good.
Mark: Okay, but like.
Andrew: Only on Dinner Conversations.
Mark: Let me explain myself. Janet Paschal, do you know her?
CeCe: I do know her.
Mark: Great singer. I've always said if I ever hear someone has had an argument with Janet Paschal, they're wrong. I don't even need a… I asked her one time… but she's probably one of the most perfect people I've ever known, seriously. And I said, "What could it be? Why did you even need Jesus?" No, what could he forgive. And I never could get her to tell me.
CeCe: Oh God, that is so funny.
Andrew: I do think some people are--
Mark: I mean, I do think you're pretty perfect from my… Hey, come here.
CeCe: Alvin knows.
Mark: Surely you know what sin is… Have you ever cussed a little?
CeCe: No.
Mark: Come on. When you slam that hammer down on that finger?
CeCe: No, nothing. No curse words come out.
Andrew: Don't let her see our B-roll.
CeCe: Absolutely not.
Mark: Well, the apostle Paul did. He said, "I count it all dung that I may..." Didn't he? Did he not? Somebody tell me the Bible.
Andrew: He's quoted it a lot of times.
Mark: And I thought, well, I like Paul. I'd count it all dung to know him. I mean, he named all of his… "I was this, I was that, I was this, I was the best, I was everything." And he wasn't bragging. He was telling the truth. "But I'd throw it all away. It's nothing but a pile of cow poop compared to knowing Jesus." I think that's wonderful.
CeCe: That is wonderful. No cursing though.
Andrew: I do think we all... Different, different people are leveled with different things in their spiritual journeys. In the sense of, I kinda remember hearing this lyric in a song that said something like, you know, some just get more than their fair share. It seems, from this perspective...
Mark: You mean talent-wise?
Andrew: No, I mean like when the heaviness of life, you know, think conflicts, whether it's inner conflict or circumstances outside of that, it does seem... I don't think anyone's less protected from a spiritual perspective or whatever, has different access to God and his righteousness, but it seems that some even without their decision, without poor decision or searching it out, have more to deal with.
Mark: Trouble.
Andrew: I guess so. Yeah.
CeCe: I mean, life is a mystery, you know. When I look at my life, when we look at all of our lives, we can see how many ways we've been so blessed, you know, and then you do see people who are suffering, and it's not because we've done anything so right. But at the same time...
Mark: Or they have done anything so wrong.
CeCe: So wrong. But I think in those times we have to know that God is sovereign. We won't always understand everything, but when you get to know him, you can trust him. You know, and we're just responsible to do what God has called us to do. And I think when we respond to that, then not only do we walk in the fullness of him, but then we're able to bless as many people as possible, you know. But if you're gonna look at all the situations around the world and let that make a deciding factor in any way if you're gonna trust God or not, then forget about it.
Mark: Right.
CeCe: You gotta know who he is, and when you know who he is, then you know that he's just.
Mark: Who said trust him when you can't trace him?
CeCe: Oh, that's good. I don't know. But it's really good.
Mark: You know, trust him. This was good.
CeCe: Like Oprah said, that's the one thing I know for sure is that the Word of God is true.
Mark: Yes. The Word of God is alive.
CeCe: It's alive.
Andrew: Living.
Mark: It is open to interpretation, but how do you know you're interpreting it right? That's a good question. I mean, if some of it is just like, I mean, there's a scripture in the Old Testament that says, if a woman sees a man, her husband and a man fighting – I need to find this Scripture. I read it one day, and I was appalled and jumped back over to the New Testament and haven't looked back since. But it says something about if you see your husband fighting with other men and you intervene and you accidentally touch the testicles of the other man, you're to cut her hand off, show her no mercy. Now, that doesn't sound like Jesus to me. I believe you have to look at the Old Testament through the lens of Jesus or it'll mess you up.
CeCe: Well. You are so funny. Well, it's so important that you read the whole Word of God and that you read it within context and that you know what's going on, as opposed to... A lot of times, like if you go to that Scripture and you just open up the Bible, let me just read that, then of course, you know what I'm saying? But if you read the whole thing, then you're understanding it's all connected, you know. And then to the New Testament, again, God is sovereign. He's perfect. And, and everything lines up with this.
Mark: I'm so thankful for Jesus.
CeCe: Me too.
Mark: I think Jesus saved God from me.
CeCe: He saved God for all of us.
Mark: The Old Testament side of God, he just seemed like he's in a bad mood half the time.
CeCe: Yeah, but it's not him. It's sin.
Andrew: So it's our context and perspective in a way. It's how we filter it.
CeCe: Right. And you've got to filter it through his eyes. If you filter through yours, it's not gonna happen.
Mark: Thank God for Jesus.
CeCe: You gotta filter through his eyes.
Andrew: I think that God's Word, because it's living, is still continuing to be born in and through us as we submit.
CeCe: Yeah. Is that that word again? Did you say it? Submit, yes.
Andrew: I feel like a traitor to my generation.
CeCe: No, it's more like a leader.
Andrew: Okay. Okay.
Mark: Thank you for watching Dinner Conversations. Don't forget to subscribe, and then ring that bell and get all notifications.
Andrew: And don't forget to like us or dislike us. Don't do that. Leave comments, talk about what's resonating in your life from these conversations, and join us next time for Dinner Conversations with--
Mark: Mark Lowry.
Andrew: And Andrew Greer.
Mark: Turning the light on.
Andrew: One question at a time.
Mark: Dinner Conversations is brought to you by Food for the Hungry, an incredible relief and community development organization, serving those with physical and spiritual needs around the world for 50 years this year.
Andrew: Help us as we help our friends at Food for the Hungry save thousands of lives and Ethiopia today by considering a generous gift.
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Truth Be Sung featuring Ellie Holcomb and Amy Grant
Legendary pop singer-songwriter Amy Grant and indie-folk singer-songwriter Ellie Holcomb share the heart behind their personal spiritual journeys and the role of women in the story of scripture.
Legendary pop singer-songwriter Amy Grant and indie-folk singer-songwriter Ellie Holcomb share the heart behind their personal spiritual journeys and the role of women in the story of scripture.
Transcript
Mark: Dinner Conversations is brought to you by Food for the Hungry, an incredible relief and community development organization serving those with physical and spiritual needs around the world for 50 years this year.
Andrew: Help us as we help our friends at Food for the Hungry save thousands of lives in Ethiopia today by considering a generous gift.
Mark: A gift that will be matched 22 times.
Andrew: Your one-time gift will make an eternal difference. So visit fh.org/dinner to give now.
Mark: This episode's gonna be fantastic. We have the renowned, forever-famous Amy Grant.
Andrew: And lovely.
Mark: And lovely. And then we have a new up-and-coming superstar, Ms. Ellie Holcomb.
Andrew: Mmhmm.
Mark: And her dad happens to be Brown Bannister, who produced Amy Grant when Ellie was a little girl.
Andrew: Way back when. It's a cool full circle. And both of these women are part of a new project called Faithful And the project of Faithful, it's a book and music project that highlights the role of women throughout the history of sharing the story of Jesus, going all the way back to scripture and celebrating their role all the way to today.
And, of course, I think through their amazing music, their amazing voices, their big hearts for other people and for God, that these two women are a perfect example of how women have played an important role in sharing the story of Jesus throughout time.
Mark: And there's one seat left at the table, and it's yours. So let's join the conversation.
Mark: Your father produced Michael English's first record.
Ellie: Oh, yeah.
Mark: Which was actually a record, probably.
Ellie: A vinyl, yeah.
Mark: Vinyl.
Ellie: Old school.
Mark: Well, I was in the Gaither Vocal Band at that time, and I wrote this lyric, and Buddy Greene put some music to it, called "Mary, Did You Know?" And I cornered your dad-
Ellie: Never heard of it. Just kidding.
Andrew: Always does.
Mark: Well, if it wasn't for your daddy, you would never have heard of it.
Ellie: Really?
Mark: Yeah.
Ellie: What?
Mark: Because I cornered-
Ellie: How does my dad not tell me these stories?
Mark: Your dad, he might not know it. Your dad, this was probably… Well, it's '91-
Andrew: Early '90s.
Ellie: Okay.
Mark: '91. And I cornered your father. I knew he was producing Michael's record, and I'd played the demo for Michael, but he hated it 'cause Buddy Greene did it in that country- You know, Buddy Greene?
Ellie: Oh yeah, oh yeah, he did it in Buddy form.
Mark: So I cornered your dad and I said, "I got a song Michael needs to do on that record," and I quoted him the lyric. I didn't even know the melody yet. I quoted him the lyric, and he fell back against that limo all at the right places. When I said, "The child that you delivered will soon deliver you," he went, "Oh." And then I said, "When you kiss your little baby, you've kissed the face of God." He went, "Oh." I said, "I got it."
Ellie: I got it, I got it.
Mark: And then he took it out of that country vibe and created the definitive to this day, 'cause I've probably heard a lot of them, cut of "Mary, Did You Know?" That intro that he created is the definitive one.
Ellie: Oh my goodness.
Mark: And so from there, it went from Michael to Kathy Mattea to Kathleen Battle to-
Andrew: Cee Lo.
Mark: A lot after that.
Andrew: The Cee Lo of the Braxtons.
Mark: But your father, so would you please tell him from me, "Thank you"?
Ellie: I will tell him thank you. And from me. And for all of us.
Andrew: Actually, yeah, that probably did something for you, too.
Ellie: And then I'll just say, "Thank you for writing it." Oh my goodness.
Mark: Well, hey, listen. It was God. I hadn't done it twice. You know, if I'd done that twice, I'd think a lot of myself. But Buddy and I both are one-hit wonders.
Ellie: Oh, I love that.
Mark: But we're so grateful. We are so grateful.
Ellie: What a beautiful song.
Mark: Aren't you grateful that God has given you the gift of writing? I mean, you write a lot.
Ellie: I love it. It is-
Mark: When did you write your first song?
Andrew: When did you start writing?
Ellie: You know what? I was in high school, actually.
Andrew: Tell me about it.
Ellie: Well, I started from a really early age, which is so funny, like seventh grade, playing guitar. And I remember the first moment. This is so dumb 'cause my dad's in music. This makes him sound bad, kind of. But I remember learning all these chords and my fingers were hurting and it was hard. And all of a sudden, I figured out I could use the guitar to sing a song. And it was just "Jingle Bells." And then it was Joan, what's her name?
Mark: Baez?
Ellie: Baez. The "If God-
Mark: Osborne.
Ellie: Joan Osborne. "What If God was One of Us."
Andrew: Oh, yeah. That's perfect.
Ellie: Yeah, a child of the '90s. Or a child of the '80s.
Andrew: Yeah, we get it.
Ellie: But I was like, you know, in middle school in the '90s. I was like, "Oh my goodness," 'cause I just love to sing. I grew up, I mean, grew up around music. Mom and Dad said, "Life is a musical." And so all of a sudden, they're like, "Oh my goodness, she's singing about everything you're doing." So singing feels like breathing to me, and it feels like prayer.
And so from a really young age, as soon as I figured out I could play the guitar and sing at the same time, I started writing. And started writing, two things, one, my first song is on my first little EP. It's from a Psalm. It's from Psalm 108.
Andrew: It was the first song you wrote?
Ellie: It was the first song I wrote.
Mark: What does it say? How do you do it? Do you write the-
Ellie: It's "My heart steadfast, O God." It's just literally the psalm.
Mark: The psalm, okay.
Ellie: Like, put to Psalm 108. It's not the whole psalm.
Mark: So you write the melody?
Ellie: But I just wrote a melody to it. And then, after that, I wrote a couple of psalm songs, and then I was like a bad version of Taylor Swift for a few years.
Andrew: I was thinking about how you said, through music, how it creates a space for you to pray, like that's how you began writing. And I was thinking like, the last few years, you've talked about this, how the last few years in your peer group, even in your own family, of course, but this kind of persistence of things untimely. You know, everything from untimely deaths, to divorce, to a lot of persistence that obviously have pain, right? Did music become a safe spot? One, how did that shape your faith perspectives? That's what I'm most interested in. What was that season and how did it begin to… I mean, was there elements of doubt?
Ellie: Oh, certainly. I mean, I'm just… Here's the deal. I'm so thankful for David and for the psalms. He makes me feel normal. But honestly, writing has been, for me, even from the time I was writing heartbreak songs, I just was processing my life and my faith through song. And it literally feels, it feels like breathing to me. And so during that season, it was like pain compounded. So I had to walk through painful things, through heartache, through loss before, but never a longer season. Now I know in the Bible, there are seasons of like 40 years of wandering in the desert. So it's nothing like that, but-
“I’m so thankful for David and for the psalms. He makes me feel normal.”
Andrew: But it is something.
Ellie: Three years of a lot of really, really painful stuff. And so absolutely I had a lot of moments of doubt. And in the same breath, what I found, as I felt like I was in this season where all everything was crumbling around us, I felt like I was sitting in a pile of ashes and rubble. What I encountered there is the presence of God and the companionship of God in deep, deep sorrow.
And so what I started to do is… I still have questions about, I'm like, "Lord, I do not understand. I do not have answers." I don't have any answers, but I do have a lot of stories of Jesus showing up in the middle of a lot of pain and bringing comfort and hope that this wasn't the end of the story.
Andrew: Did you experience… Was that presence a different feeling or even a different… Was there a revelation to have like, "Oh, this is who God is I never knew Him to be."
Ellie: Yeah, absolutely. I think-
Mark: Well, what happened? I don't know the...
Ellie: Oh yeah. That's a good question. Well, it started off very dear friends of ours walked through so much pain leading up to a really painful divorce. And then we had a friend with-
Andrew: Peers of ours, right? Young, younger.
Ellie: Peers, yeah, our age, But we were both in the wedding. You know, just one of these, one of these… And, you know, when it's like your best guy friend and your best girl friend, it just was intense. It was heavy. And there was so much pain and brokenness, as there is, well, in any relationship really. But especially the divorce, it just was heavy.
And then we had friends of ours, same stage of life, walk through just losing their baby 36 hours after the baby was born. And they knew that there wasn't a strong chance of their baby surviving. Some chromosomal kind of disorder there. And so walked through losing baby Blake.
And then walked through years of infertility with another couple, friend of ours, who… It's seemingly an amazing story of God's redemption in this adoption story that God seemed to be writing. And then when the mom had some drug issues and had relapsed three times, and at 37 weeks lost the baby that they were gonna adopt. And so it felt like, I just remember shaking my fist like, "God, this felt like the story that you were gonna write of redemption." And now this just feels like a cruel trick. Like, what in the world? So it was walking through the pain and the ache of that family member who checked into rehab for alcohol, for addiction.
And so all of these things kind of compounding over the course of two and a half, three years.
Mark: And where did you end up? I mean, how did you-
Ellie: On the floor.
Mark: But I mean, how did you get through it? Like, I just talked to some who throw God away.
Andrew: Do you get through it?
Mark: I have friends who are now atheists.
Ellie: Who have walked because of that kinda pain.
Andrew: Because of pain?
Mark: Because of stuff. Yeah, divorce. He was so broken. I think it's the divorce. It could be many, many other things. I don't know. But he's now an atheist. And I wonder how you didn't throw God out?
Ellie: Yeah. You know, I threw a lot of questions His way and a lot of doubt His way, but I think what happens is we all have a choice when we're in the middle of pain and you have the choice to shake your fist and be angry with God. There's freedom for that, of course. Like, He can handle that.
Mark: Right.
Ellie: Which I love about Him. And I love that you see that in the psalm. In one Psalm, David is like, "Where are You?" And some of them end in utter despair. Psalm 81. I mean, there are psalms where it's not like tied in a bow at the end.
Andrew: It doesn't, yeah.
Mark: Right, right.
Ellie: And then some psalms, I'm like, "David, freaking A, how long..." Er, I hope that's okay.
Mark: It's alright, it's alright.
Ellie: Sorry, I said that.
Mark: Nobody in my crowd knows what that means.
Andrew: Yeah, freaking awesome.
Ellie: Yeah, freaking awesome.
Mark: They've never heard it.
Ellie: How long did it take you to get to "But God"? Like, "But God, did this take you three years to write? Did it take you 10?" At the end of the day, we have that choice to trust and to, you know, it's okay to be angry and to doubt, or to despair and reject who He is. And I kept finding myself at that place where I wanted to despair. But I'm like, "I don't know what else I have to keep me going but You."
Andrew: Yeah, press into.
Ellie: And I'm so grateful that what I found to be very true and to be very comforting is that, in some ways, I think that God's answer to suffering is "Me too." Like, He was a man of sorrows, well acquainted with grief. And so I encountered that man of sorrows in a place of deep sorrow and deep loss, walking through that with-
Mark: Alright, let me ask you-
Andrew: It's like-
Mark: Oh, go ahead.
Andrew: It's like God is our father becoming God who is our friend. You know, that's what pain has… And I think of like, you were saying trusting, like the story of your friends who were leading up to adoption, infertility, then this beautiful adoption story that seems to be unfolding, and then totally unravels. In my mind, it's like in a lot of our life, we trust a story, and at some point, we get to where we have to literally trust God.
“At some point, we get to where we have to literally trust God.”
Ellie: The ultimate storyteller.
Andrew: Right. It's like we trust in this path. We're like, "Here's where it's going and here's where it's leading," and then when it doesn't, it's like, "This is what we're left with."
Ellie: Yeah, and it feels like rubble. Like the ruins of a city, you know?
Andrew: Right.
Ellie: And you're just like going, "Okay, Lord." But I think there is this… And here's the deal. I wrote a lot of the songs on my last record not at the end. Like I needed to write them in the middle because I know that I'll face pain again. We all do. This is like a broken world and we're broken people. And so I just wanted to remember, I wanted to mark what I was encountering in the comfort and the hope of God, to even say, even on this side of glory, on this earth, the circumstances may not ever turn out like I want them to. In fact, they haven't. This isn't how I would've written the story.
Mark: Right.
Ellie: But because of what Jesus has done on the cross and because He walked up out of the grave, I have the hope, we have the hope, that this isn't the end of the story.
Mark: Right. And can you imagine going through all that without Him?
Ellie: I can't. And that's where I got to in that place when you're on the floor, shaking your fists at Him, and you're like, "Okay, I'm still mad at You, but I actually need You. I need You too."
Mark: Yes, yes.
Ellie: Like "I need You."
Mark: I'd rather be in the valley with Him than on the mountain without Him.
“I’d rather be in the valley with Him than on the mountain without Him.”
Ellie: It is. It is, truly. And I can honestly say, not 'cause everything is all wrapped up and everything is fine and easy and pretty, but I can say that because of walking through pain and loss and sore and suffering, I think, not in spite of that but because of that, I know and believe that God is real more now because of that not in spite of it, which is so backwards.
Mark: I've wondered sometimes when Christ says, "I've come to give you abundant life," if that doesn't just mean a lot of it.
Ellie: A lot of it.
Mark: Abundant, you know? It's higher mountains and deeper valleys sometimes, I think, with Him, but at least you're with Him.
Ellie: You're with Him. I mean, isn't that it? That life to the full, life abundantly. John 10:10, right?
I mean, my friend Shelly, who's in her 50s, she's on "Young Lifestyle," she's amazing. When we were walking through this season, she was like, "Life to the full." She was like, "I think that means the full scope of life. Great joy, deep sorrow."
Mark: Yeah, taste it all.
Andrew: The whole range of emotion.
Ellie: And the fullness of God's presence in all of those places. And you're like.
Andrew: Yeah, was it-
Mark: Well, I wanna repeat myself.
Andrew: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Mark: 'Cause I've been accused of it. But don't you think that… Oh, crud, now don't turn 60 'cause you forget-
Andrew: You can't remember what you say all the time.
Mark: Yeah, I know. About this subject...
Andrew: Okay, we'll-
Mark: I'll come back to it, crap.
Andrew: Same subject- Trust me, it's a cycle.
Mark: Crap. Yes, I said crap.
Andrew: Was this in the same time period when your dad was diagnosed with cancer?
Ellie: Okay, so great question. If you think of it, come in at any point.
Mark: No, no, no, no, I will.
Andrew: Just slide in.
Ellie: I'm really in trouble when I'm 60, 'cause I'm 35-
Mark: Thank you for honoring your elders.
Ellie: I'm 35 and I'm already like that.
Mark: Do you know how dead I'll be when you're 60? How dead will I be? You picture it, like this.
Ellie: You won't be dead.
Mark: Oh, I'll be dead.
Ellie: You won't be dead, you'll be alive.
Andrew: Yeah, that's it.
Ellie: You will be alive.
Mark: But this will be decaying, and I've kind of grown accustomed to it. But it'll be like this. Kind of picture it.
Ellie: I'm picturing it. And then I'm picturing you dancing.
Mark: And when you're 60, you better come to my funeral, too.
Ellie: I'll be there.
Andrew: Tell them what they're gonna sing when they take you.
Mark: Oh, you wanna know what I'll have them sing when they take me out?
If you don't know me by now
You will never, never, never know me
Wouldn't that be fabulous?
Andrew: Swinging that casket.
Mark: As they're swinging that casket out of the church.
Andrew: Yeah, just throw it right into the ditch.
Mark: Okay, back to you.
Andrew: Dad had cancer.
Mark: Oh, back to cancer.
Oh gosh, why is this thing here? We don't need this.
Andrew: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
Mark: Look, look. I'm caught up in it.
Andrew: Keep it, keep it, keep it.
Mark: Do you need that?
Ellie: I'll give you a mic.
Mark: Alright, okay, back to cancer.
Ellie: No, it looks important.
Andrew: Yeah, thank you.
Ellie: So what's interesting is I walked through all of this pain with dear, dear friends. Like our people that we do life with. And then had written this record, and actually, we were in the process of getting ready to go into pre-production. And my dad is my producer.
Mark: Oh, lucky you.
Andrew: Cool, yeah, right?
Ellie: So that is like, oh, totally lucky.
Mark: You were born in the right family, honey.
Ellie: I totally was. I totally was, and it's just the sweetest. Oh, it's such a gift to get to work together. But we were actually in pre-production, and I was on a trip in the middle of all of that. And, you know, got the text that nobody's ever ready to get, that the test came back positive and that Dad had cancer. And so all of these things that I had walked through and seen God to be faithful, and it was like, "Okay, we're gonna just bring this a little closer to home."
Andrew: Yes.
Ellie: Which is just crazy.
Andrew: Right, plain personal.
Mark: I got it. This is bootcamp.
Ellie: It totally is.
Mark: That's what I was gonna say.
Andrew: Say it right there so the rod will catch it.
Mark: That this time of 80 years on this earth is where we get to learn to walk by faith.
Ellie: It is. It's true.
Mark: And that includes all the crap you're going through.
Ellie: 'Cause you can't see, you don't know the end of the story. And then I do think like… I heard a teacher, Jen Wilkins, she's a Bible teacher down in Texas, and I've been doing some of her studies, and she says our hope isn't in our circumstances, it's in the God who's over all circumstances, and He's writing a good story that will...
Mark: Love that. What's her name?
Ellie: Jen Wilkins.
Andrew: It's so different to experience it personally, right, though? Like I mean, I think about my sister-in-law was diagnosed with cancer at our age, and then my dad was diagnosed with cancer a couple years ago. It's completely different. We walk through cancer stories. And I think it's an honor-
Ellie: It is an honor.
Andrew: To walk through people's dark night of the soul or people's tough journeys. But it's a different, I mean, feeling, if you have those feelings about your parents. I mean, some people may be different. But for me there's a completely… It requires a different level of surrender, in my opinion, don't you think?
Ellie: Oh, absolutely. So even still, having seen God be faithful through all these things, I will never… It is a totally different thing. And I called all my friends who had lost parents, and it just was like, I mean, just wept on the phone with them. I'm like, "Sorry, if you weren't ready to re-deal with this, but I'm so sorry."
Andrew: Right.
Ellie: Just 'cause, man, it hits at another level when you experience it, like somebody that close to you who you love that much. And I'll never forget-
Mark: But is he okay now?
Ellie: He's in remission now. We're so grateful.
Mark: What kind of cancer?
Ellie: It was prostate. And so it was like, which sometimes that is the case, and they're like, "Come back next year." I mean, it's like a slow moving thing. And his was very aggressive. They found it randomly. He was getting his calcium levels tested for something else. And they were like, "Hey, you need to go in now. Your PSA levels are super high."
So I will never forget. It was my mom's birthday. And they, for her birthday, a week after they get this diagnosis, they don't know what the journey's gonna look like, they have no clue what's ahead, Mom is like, "I wanna do a praise and worship night for my birthday. And that's what I want." And we were like, "Okay."
Mark: I love it.
Ellie: Easy. So we have their friends and family all over to have a praise and worship night. And I remember, my son was tiny at the time, I had him strapped to me, like a little baby carrier. I remember standing in the back of the room and going, "God, I know you've been faithful through all this other stuff. I am so scared. I am not ready to lose my dad." And I will never forget watching Mom and Dad that night just run into all the darkness, all the unknown ahead of them, with their hands raised in the air, praising God. And I moved from the outside of the room to the very center of the room that night, somewhat awkwardly stepping over people, you know, just packed in there, just 'cause I felt like they were crazy on one hand, and then it felt irresistible to not just follow their lead on the other, and so I was like, "Okay, I'm going in. I'm gonna choose to rejoice, even in the middle of this."
And we encountered that night the peace and the presence of God in a way that will mark me for the rest of my life. And really, through that whole journey, I remember at one point looking over at my dad and he's got his hands in the air and he just takes this big sigh with this huge smile on his face. Like he'd never been anywhere better. And I am like, "This is so upside down and so backwards."
Mark: Yes.
Ellie: And this is what God promises.
Mark: Is the Kingdom.
Ellie: His presence. It's the kingdom of heaven here on earth coming one day that we'll all experience one day.
Mark: And just think how many more times in eternity we will experience that.
Ellie: We get to experience that.
Mark: You just had a taste, a foretaste, of glory divine, as Fanny Crosby says.
Ellie: A taste. It is. It is. That is it. And it is one of those nights and just journeys that I wanna build an altar to that. 'Cause I'm like, "Okay-
Mark: You'll never forget.
Ellie: "Okay, this doesn't make any sense. This is backwards, upside down, and that's the kingdom of heaven."
Mark: Yes.
Andrew: There's Nadia Bolz-Weber. Have you heard of her? She's like a kind of theologian author, whatever, but she says, "We go to God seeking solutions. What we receive is His presence."
Ellie: That's it. That is it.
Andrew: You know, and I feel like that's what you were experiencing that night.
Mark: Ooh, that's good. Slow down now, I'm from Texas. Wait. You what?
Andrew: You go to God seeking solutions.
Mark: Questions, answers, answers.
Andrew: Right. What you receive is His presence.
Mark: Oh, I love it.
Andrew: Which is what we actually need.
Ellie: It's what we need.
Andrew: That is the satisfaction.
Food for the Hungry Sponsorship Message
Mark: You can help save thousands of lives by giving a generous gift to Food for the Hungry today.
Andrew: In the rural Dera district of Ethiopia, families are experiencing high death rates in children under five due to preventable water-related diseases. They simply don't have access to clean water sources or the infrastructure to practice good health and hygiene.
Mark: Until now. We're talking latrines, Andrew. Your gift today will provide families in the Dera district with clean water, health and hygiene training, hand washing stations, and lifesaving latrines. And to add to the impact, your gift will be matched 22 times, 22 times.
Andrew: It’s a wonderful opportunity, Mark. Food for the Hungry is already laying the groundwork now to provide a safe place to live for hundreds of thousands of vulnerable children and their families in Ethiopia. I think of Jesus's own words in the Gospels where he says, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself." The people of Ethiopia, Mark, they matter to God. And so they matter to us too. Will you help us let them know they are important to God and to their neighbors across the ocean? That's us.
Mark: Give generously today at fh.org/dinner. We're so excited that you'll be giving that we wanna give something to you. We have several add-ons, we call them, where we will be maybe making a special phone call to a friend of yours, a video.
Andrew: It's a little video, that's right, as shoutout videos for your friend's birthday or for an anniversary, or maybe like a Zoom conversation with just you, Mark, and me, or even a Zoom party with you and some of your friends. All these are just a simple way to say thank you for the life-saving gift that you're giving to Food for the Hungry, for our friends in Ethiopia, at fh.org/dinner.
The Faithful Project
Mark: Women have been very important in my journey to know Jesus. First of all my mother, who would tuck me into bed at night, tell me God's gonna use me. My grandmothers were so important to me. And then some of the women in our church, like Delores Sims. You've never heard of her, but she would always woo me to Jesus. And did you know that women were the first ones that learned that Jesus had risen from the dead? And then they went back, told the men, the men didn't believe it until they saw him for themselves. But women have been very important in the message of the Gospel and this new project called Faithful, which is a CD and book.
Andrew: So many of our good friends and people that you have read their literature or you've heard their music, people like Amy Grant and Kelly Minter and Jenny Owens, Sandra McCracken, Sally Lloyd Jones, Trillia Newbell, there's so many wonderful authors and artists, and here's the cool part. They all got together to write about the women of the Bible and then write songs about how women are a part of continuing to share the story of the gospel all throughout history into today, but the artists and the authors combined efforts. So artists, musicians, were writing some of the chapters and authors were helping write some of the music, which I think it's just this shared experience to say that the telling and sharing of the Gospel, the story of God, is written in each of our lives to share and tell to others just like you.
When I think about who first shared the real nuts and bolts of the Gospel, it was women. And so this Faithful Project celebrates that, highlights that, and offers an opportunity, not just for women but also for men, to be invited into that conversation as well. To learn more about the book and the music project called Faithful, go to faithfulproject.com.
Amy Grant and Ellie Holcomb singing “A Woman” from Faithful: Go and Speak
I could not speak it
But you didn't quit when they called you heretic
Mh-mhmm
They said I was too dangerous
So I stood with all the women at a distance
Mhmm
But once my name crossed His lips
How could I keep quiet
He is not ashamed to be seen with me beside Him
Mhmm
I have seen the Lord, I will speak of Him
And nobody could talk me out of it
I have seen the Lord and my Lord's seen me
Oh, He said my name and told me
Go and speak of what you've seen
So I will run and tell the story of
The One denied stayed buried but it is alive
Spirit's setting tongues on fire
Oh, heaven's singing glory, glory, glory
Trees are clapping, clapping, clapping
Rocks are shouting, shouting, shouting
And then there's me, a woman
And I will speak of what I've seen
Go and speak (I will speak) of what you've seen (what I've seen)
Go and speak
Andrew: Thanks for sitting down today with us again.
Amy: And I know it's dinner, but we did just have eggs and bacon.
Andrew: We did. Courtesy of you by the way. I wanna make that real known that you are the one with the hospitality today.
Amy: Well, I'm the one with the hunger too.
Andrew: It's a little practical, isn't it?
Amy: Yes, yes.
Andrew: You know, I wanna talk about the influence of women in our lives. Every man, woman, girl, boy are influenced by women. And when I think about the influence of women in my life, I think about, of course, my mother, Jane, you know? And when I think about what I learned about God and what I'm still learning about God, when I think of the ability to begin to accept myself and to love myself, which I think in turn has helped me to accept and love others more wholeheartedly, that comes from my mother, a large part of that. Who is, has been, is, the most influential woman in your life?
Amy: Oh my goodness. Well, of course I would have to say my mother. And my Grandmother Grant was a great cook, and she loved flowers. She was involved with a garden club. I mean, she knew so much about flowers. And my mother's mother loved men.
I saw women that followed their passions, and that was wonderful. And my great grandmother had a fantastic laugh. Just a chuckle that was always just gurgling underneath. And she lived until I was a junior in college. And she was always also humming under her breath. Always humming, singing some old hymn. But that was in my programming, I do the same thing.
Andrew: There's a project that you've been a part of that's called Faithful, and of course it's celebrating a lot of women's voices today in today's culture. Words, song, exploring the role of the importance of the contribution of women's voices in the story of Scripture, the story of God. What first attracted you to that project?
Amy: The opportunity for community, creative community, is what really interested me. In fact, I had met Andrew Osenga, and I just said, "I feel like I'm sort of in no man's land." I don't know if that was my fault or, but I just said, "I want a community I can plug into." And, I mean, I do have community. But a creative community… You know, I'm 60. And so it's like, even people that started off doing what I was doing went on to other things. And so I had told Andrew, "Think of me. If you do something, please think of me." The first invitation was, "Hey, come be a think tank for a project we want to do."
We were divided up in small groups, twos and threes, and given a woman to study in the Bible. Some of them were nameless. And I thought I knew my Bible pretty well, but I was like, "Who is she? What did she do? Her life is awful. We're supposed to write a song about this?" Like she's part of the epic story of God's love, but her chapter is not good. But then it makes you kind of… You know, everything… You can't help it. You study one person's life and you go, "Oh, we have that similar," or "We have that different," or you just consider the implications of what does it mean to be important, to be vital. How do we define a good life?
It became a project I so wanted to share with other people. And I just threw personal invitations to people, "Would you please download this?” I know it's a ticketed event, but the money that comes from this is actually going to help someone else, so I'm not afraid to ask. And I had several women saying, "Spending an evening with women doesn't really sound good to me." And I said, "I know, I know, but this is not who's had the boob job, who looks better, who's whatever, blah, blah, blah. You're gonna wanna be in this circle." And everyone just said, "Thank you."
Andrew: Yeah, yeah.
Amy: Thank you. It was, yeah.
Andrew: I was gonna say, in the culture that we're in, women being together can't always be simple. I can't speak from firsthand experience, of course, but from observing women with women, that can be a really tough relationship. Some because of culture like, "How am I supposed to present myself?" "How many kids do I have?" "I can't even have kids." Or "What does their landscaping look like?" I mean, there's a lot of comparative opportunities, if taken, that can really divide women.
But what you all have examples here, really I think about the early church, too. Like the early church example to us, what the church could be and can be and should be all the way up 'til today, if we continue to evolve. Well, not even evolve but just continue to replicate that example. You women, you ladies in the Faithful Project set an example that can then be experienced. You didn't just experience it, you set an example. So I think that's beautiful.
I also think tracing the voices of women throughout the story of God is beautiful. But I am curious. You, as a woman, have you ever felt unseen or unheard?
Amy: Yeah, I don't know that I… I think the times that I felt the most unseen and unheard that were damaging to me, and there have been times, have been times when I was unwilling to see myself and to be honest and vulnerable about something that I was uncertain about. What a weird answer.
But I think there are things about having lived a public life that I just think sometimes doing what I felt like I was supposed to do or the job that had been carved out for me. You know, by the time I graduated high school, I was already in it. And I feel like, I wonder… I mean, I wouldn't go back and change anything, but I certainly did some things very poorly, made some awful mistakes. But I think in all the busyness, there were probably a lot of times that I just kind of barreled through life and didn't… I don't know.
I mean, I remember being in therapy at Porter's Call, and Al Andrews, the therapist, saying, "You at this age. Tell me what you think about her." And I said, "I despise her." I despise her. And he said, I forget how old I was at this level of therapy, I think I was in my late 30s, "I want you to go stand beside her and put your arm around that earlier version of yourself and I want you to say, 'You're not doing this by yourself. We're here now, I'm with you, and we'll consider things differently.'"
You know, it's weird. I mean, everything begins inside of us, and whatever message would make us not able to see ourselves, we're the perpetrator as well. And so I think the great thing about women being together is as soon as one says anything vulnerable, it's so refreshing just to say something vulnerable. If it's a party of five, three of the five will say, "I've been in the same place." And I do think that's a unique wiring of women. I don't think women are wired for a pissing contest. I think we're wired for community. And so, you know, as soon as somebody takes off that mask, everybody's like, "Oh God, I just wanted to get rid of that. Thank you." Women want to be seen for who they are with all their messiness and everything if it's safe.
“Women want to be seen for who they are with all their messiness.”
Andrew: If it's safe is, of course, important. And each of us have to journey that and understand our boundaries around that, of course, 'cause there can be vulnerability for vulnerability's sake, not vulnerability for building up sake. But that's a whole nother conversation. The beginning is the ability, the willingness, to be vulnerable. And I do feel that as one of women's great examples in opportunities in our culture is to teach the way of vulnerability and the courage that it requires to be vulnerable. And the beautiful benefit of being vulnerable is that, exactly what you're saying, we learn we're not alone. And what do we most crave to know? I think it's that we're not alone. So it's meeting a very deep desire in us.
I wanna kinda change course here for a second, but a vulnerable thing that happened to you, or that you had to go through, experience, was open heart surgery. Tell me how you discovered that you were gonna have to go under the knife.
Amy: Mm. I went to the doctor with Vince. He's 64. His dad died of a heart attack at 65. And I think any time something's sort of in your gene pool… Both my parents had dementia. Every time I can't find the keys, I'm like, (gasps).
Andrew: It's happening.
Amy: Yeah. But yeah, so I just went with him after he'd done a battery of tests to be there to say whatever the doctors, you know, just to support him. And Dr. John Bright Cage, he said, "Vince, exercise more, eat better. You're fine. I mean, believe it or not, your arteries are crystal clear." And I'm looking at him like, "Are you kidding?" He's like the sausage and bacon and cheeseburger man. It's genetics.
But, yeah, he said, "You're great." And then the doctor looked at me and said, "We need to get you checked out." And so-
Amy: Were you like, "What?"
Amy: I mean, I didn't give it a second thought, you know.
Andrew: Sure, sure.
Amy: And yeah, I went in for some tests. I thought I was gonna be on a treadmill. It was none of that. You know, not the dreaded treadmill test. Two days after the tests, I woke up to a message, "Call me." Anyway, and I called and he was like, "Man, you're wired so uniquely on the inside." And it was the radiologist looking at. And yeah. And so he said, "You have a thing that has to be fixed, so." Been there my whole life.
Andrew: And just never had any indicator that that's what was going on?
Amy: No. And he did say things like… I mean, Vince and I were there and they were doing like an ultrasound. And I remember him saying, "You know, Vince, this will be fine, fine, fine, then catastrophic." And so, you know, that word, I was over on the table, I was like, "What was that word?"
But it wasn't until after the surgery and there was an article in the newspaper when I turned 60. Clearly nothing going on in Nashville on that day. But I am a hometown girl. But I was reading the article, and Dr. Cage said, "She would've been dead by 62."
Andrew: Wow.
Amy: And all I thought was, "A+ for bedside manner." A+.
Andrew: I mean, it's interesting. I think it was probably a few weeks afterwards, and we were texting or talking, and I remember just everything you articulated was so infused with this kind of underlying peace and surrender. And a part of this episode, you know, we've been talking to Ellie Holcomb, of course who was Ellie Banister, which of course is the daughter of Brown, who was such a pivotal part of your many years of recording, not just your first years of recording.
She was saying when Brown began going through kind of just thinking through the diagnosis of cancer and all that implied for his life at that point in time, that they had in their home, her parents kind of hosted just an intimate gathering of close friends, kind of a worship night just of singing just together and praying together. And really that, while she was still wrestling with the realities of the diagnosis and still wrestling with "What does this mean for my dad's life?" and how she felt about that, she's watching her parents on their knees with their hands up in the air, just in a total posture of surrender.
And that's what I saw, those indicators, a lot in your language around it. And what I'm curious about is, where do you find the freedom? Like where does the freedom, the permission, even the courage, come from to just truly open up your hands and say, "Alright, whatever you got, God. Here we go."
Amy: Yeah. I'm thinking a lot of things right now. First off, knowing that at some point my body will fail. And being squarely in the third third of my life, I'm looking at all kinds of things that I wonder how I want to use my imagination and creativity for how they could be different. And I think the real gift to me in facing something that could have been the end is it just reminded me that we all have just a certain amount of time. And this might just be something I have conjured up totally in my imagination. But my faith compels me to say, at whatever point somebody dies, if it's a heroic death or a tragic death or a violent death at the hands of somebody else, in my mind, right on the other side of that last breath is the arms of love saying, "Tap out, good job. Okay, now you go on. Alright, it's your turn. Now, come on." You know, just like this ever-evolving story. And so, you know, through the death of loved ones, I've just had to say, death is not the punishment. Death is just the end of this time tube. That's it. Not to be feared.
Like somebody will say, "What are the things on your bucket list you want to accomplish?" That might be one way to look at it. But recently, I've just been going, "I want to really live fearlessly." I don't know what that means, you know? But I don't know what that means.
You know, I've been praying most days of my life for half my life, since I was 30, "Lord, lead me today to those I need and those that need me, and let something I do have eternal significance." And, you know, I mean, wouldn't it be amazing if we were all so intricately connected and we weren't responsible so much for each other as we were just if we just welcomed each other, if we just made ourselves available, if we made what we have available. Not the responsibility to fix it, but you know.
I feel like the little boy with the five loaves and two fish. It's not his job. All he did was go, "I'm here, I got something," you know? I mean, what a radical ripple effect would it be in a world of scarcity and fear if we were brave enough to just cannonball into the cesspool, you know?
To take it back to the Faithful Project, every one of us is a part of the story God's telling. And to what depth are we willing to be engaged? And I just think, I think as time gets less and less, we find ourselves going, "Did I leave it all on the table?" "Did I leave it all in that race that I ran?"
Andrew: Well, in this chapter of your life, I would think, and I'm heading towards that eventually, hopefully, you know, I think that's the beautiful perspective that you get to have, having lived this length of life, is that you get to say, "What am I holding onto it for?" And therefore, you're able to release it in a way that I probably still have not quite developed enough, experienced enough, mature enough. I'm hoping if I can listen well, then I can learn well. And maybe before I get to 70, 80, you know, before I'm at the very last stride, I can actually already be open and can already be extending. And receiving, too, because one of my issues is receiving, so-
Amy: I did think one thing.
Andrew: Okay.
Amy: This can be a PS. Jimmy Gentry, part of Highway 96, there's a name for him. I've said this so many times, but while he's still alive, and if he dies, I'm gonna keep saying it, but, you know, there are tiny lessons that change your life. And when my son, Matt, was in high school and, oh, I just couldn't figure out what all, you know. I'd gone through a divorce, I was like, "Help me," and I drove out to see Jimmy. He's in his 90s now, you know. But back then, he just said in his Southern drawl, "I'm gonna give you five phrases, easy to remember. And I want you say these phrases as often as possible to your son and to yourself, and to everyone."
Anyway, and he held up his big, old gnarled hand, and he said, "Now we're gonna remember it by how many fingers I'm holding up. The first phrase I want you to know is 'How can I help you?' Say that as often as you can to your son, and to yourself, and to everybody. 'How can I help you?' Now fold your thumb down. Now, 'I'm proud of you,' as often as you can, just say that." He held down another finger. "Now you know what this phrase is." And I said, "I love you."
Andrew: Yes.
Amy: He said, "Two words?" And I went "Thank you?" And he said, "Yes." And he said, "Now this is the most important of all." And it was the Southern drawl. And I'm so crazy about him, and I was like, "I wanna get this right." I was like, "Jesus?" And he was like, "Nope." "Love?" "No. No, that's not it, Amy." "Forgiveness?" "Mm-mm, that's good, but that's not it. This is the most important one of all."
And I just kept, kept, kept, kept, you know, the songwriter in me, (imitates motor). "Nope, nope. Everything hangs on this one." And I said, "I don't know what it is." And he said, "We. That's the most important of all." You know, it changes everything.
Andrew: Yeah.
Amy: Houston, we have a problem.
Andrew: Yes, exactly. I have a problem.
Amy: I'm up here in the craft. I'm in the craft. I know.
Andrew: Yeah.
Amy: I feel that way about the world politics, every table where we are seemingly on opposite sides. We have a problem.
Andrew: Yeah. Yeah.
Amy: We.
My ex-husband, when we were first trying to find our way through. We. We need to learn reconciliation, and we have.
Andrew: Isn't that interesting? We, yeah.
Amy: We.
Andrew: Even in that most tense and personal experience
Amy: We, I know. When we look at it that way, we.
Andrew: Mmhmm, yeah.
Amy: Yeah.
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Andrew: Yeah, it's taking an approach to the Bible from being just simply informational to really being invitational. So there's a lot of prompts in this Bible to journal alongside Scriptures. It gives you opportunity to pray certain Scriptures at different seasons of your life, to meditate on the Scripture. There's beautiful artwork in here that's really cool cause it's not just like some kind of Sunday school artwork. They're using like da Vinci and beautiful pieces of classic art to really just get us to imagine, to be able to use all of our senses as we enter into Scripture, so that we really step into the story of Scripture, not just see it as words on a page but as part of a living, breathing active part of our lives. And you know what? I asked my brother one time, who's a pastor, I said, "Why is the Bible so important?" And he said exactly what you said a second ago, because it is the greatest written revelation of who God is. And so it gives us the opportunity to know God but also to be a part of God's story. That's the Abide Bible.
Mark: So go to abidebible.com to get your copy today.
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Andrew: I wanna take us into a new conversation about motherhood. Okay, I think about you're a particular parent.
Mark: Okay, well, I'm gonna have a cigarette break.
How has it changed your image of God? Is that what you were gonna ask?
Andrew: Yeah.
Mark: Okay, alright, let me ask it. How's that change… No. How does it change you? 'Cause I've never had a kid. He's never had a kid. What happens?
Ellie: You know.
Mark: Now don't laugh over her.
Ellie: No, it's been one of my favorite things to do that I don't know how to do.
Mark: Wow.
Ellie: You know? I mean, I remember coming home, like we were leaving the hospital with Emmylou, they're like, "Okay, you can go," and I'm like, "What?"
Andrew: Where?
Ellie: Don't have to pass a test?
Mark: Yeah.
Ellie: I mean, I do. I have no clue what I'm doing. I love this kid so much. That's about all I got going for me. And so I think it has been one of the most humbling, beautiful things.
I'll never forget being two and a half months, and Emmylou is tiny, we had just been to the hospital 'cause she had a hip dysplasia, which I had when I was a little girl.
Mark: Oh.
Ellie: And so she's in a brace and two-
Mark: One of my dogs had that. I swear. It broke my heart, too.
Ellie: It's hard.
Mark: That's as close as I've got to a kid.
Ellie: It's hard.
Mark: But it's dead. Anyway, go ahead.
Ellie: But it's dead.
Mark: Pit bull next door. So you've never had a pit bull kill one of your children?
Ellie: I've never had a pit bull kill one of my children.
Mark: You've never had a pit bull kill one of your children.
Ellie: Jesus, may it never be so. I'm so sorry. That sounds horrible.
Mark: Right in front of me. But it sucked.
Andrew: It killed one of your kids?
Ellie: That is terrible.
Mark: But you know what?
Ellie: I'm gonna go and write a song about that.
Mark: But I believe dogs go to heaven, Psalm 36:6. But anyway, back to you.
Ellie: I'm gonna go look that up later.
Mark: Look that up.
Ellie: Oh my gosh.
Mark: He saves humans and animals alike. It's in the Bible.
Ellie: I love it, I love it, I love it. It's a new earth. There's gonna be animals there, for sure.
Okay, so two and a half months in, and just so you know what our life was like, at two weeks we were on the road. So I was in my husband's band at the time, and we were touring when she was two weeks.
Mark: So you're learning how to be a mother and be a mother on the road.
Andrew: Two weeks.
Ellie: Yes, yeah, it was crazy. And y'all, we were in a van. It was not like in a bus, glamour touring. It was different.
Andrew: Uh-uh, with nannies.
Ellie: No, yeah, it was like different. It was different venues every night in hotels. And she was an amazing little traveler. But at two and a half months, we had been touring and we were on another trip. And then we had a four month run that we were doing, opening for a band called NEEDTOBREATHE, so that was gonna be just intense. And I was exhausted and so overwhelmed. I mean, just so overwhelmed, and I will never forget. I just remember going, "Okay, I'm gonna have to go. I just need to go take a rest 'cause I'm not okay." Like, I'm not okay.
Andrew: Yeah, this is about to-
Ellie: It was one of those times I looked up… Do y'all know "Jesus Calling" by Sarah Young?
Mark: I love it.
Ellie: It almost always is exactly what I need to hear on the day.
Mark: Isn't it?
Ellie: So I looked up the day, and I'm like, "That's not even working."
Mark: Oh, it's not even working.
Ellie: I'm like, "If 'Jesus Calling,' the word of the Lord, I need it." I'm like, "That was not." I'm like, "It's the wrong day."
Andrew: I'm done.
Ellie: You know, I flipped a couple days before, and I'm like, "No, no, no, no."
Mark: No, no, no. Oh, that is hysterical.
Ellie: It's literally the one time that like, it hasn't been exactly, perfectly what I needed. So I was just like, "Oh, oh, Lord." And so I am like, "God, I need to hear from You." And it was one of the sweetest. This is another like altar Ebenezer moment for me. But I got up in the little bunk, and I'm just, tears are streaming down my face. I'm trying to not just sob 'cause I feel so ill-equipped to do this mom thing and this work thing at the same time. And then so tired. And I felt like I just sensed God saying, "I've given Emmylou to you to raise and to nurture and to grow, but she's mine."
Mark: Ooh.
Ellie: And I am gonna take such good care of her. And I was like, "Okay.
Mark: Oh my goodness.
Ellie: And then on top of that, on top of that, "I know I've given you the mom role. I've given you this calling to be a mother. But before you're a mother, you are My beloved daughter, and I'm gonna take such good care of you."
Mark: Oh my gosh, He talks to you so much better than He talks to me.
Ellie: I know, He talks so good.
Andrew: You don't need Jesus Calling, just write it-
Mark: How did you get such a connection?
Ellie: Oh my gosh, I don't know.
Andrew: Ellie's calling.
Ellie: But I literally-
Mark: But isn’t it the truth?
Ellie: It was like I go back to that moment. So it's not all the time that that kind of thing happens. But I go back to that moment-
Mark: I've had 'em.
Ellie: All the time, all the time, and I write it down and I keep telling the story.
Mark: Aren't you thankful you have those to look back on?
Ellie: Oh my goodness.
Mark: And writing them down is good 'cause when you turn 60, your memory is shot.
Ellie: You forget. Or 35 already, so I'm like-
Mark: So two kids, two kids. Do you want more of them?
Ellie: Yeah, 35 with two kids.
Mark: Do you want more children?
Ellie: Oh yes.
Mark: Yeah, how many?
Ellie: Well, I'll take three.
Mark: Right now?
Ellie: Or however many the Lord wants to give us.
Mark: Really?
Ellie: You know, I come from-
Mark: So you think you've got it down now?
Ellie: No, not at all, not at all.
Mark: But you're willing to risk another ax murderer in the world You know, I contend, if you have eight, you're really taking...
My guy friend, my camera rod, has eight kids. He's gotta have an ax murderer in there somewhere.
Andrew: My statistics are if someone screwed up.
Mark: Well, somebody does. But how wonderful, seriously. I think it's a wonderful thing that you're doing over the… I mean, how fun that-
Ellie: You get to see everything again.
Mark: And their personalities are so different, right?
Ellie: Totally different.
Andrew: And do you see elements of yourself already in some of them that you're like, "Oh my goodness, not what I wanted"?
Ellie: Oh, man. It's like a mirror. It is like the best accountability partner you've ever had. I mean, and my little girl is, I mean, she's like-
Mark: 'Cause they'll repeat it back.
Ellie: Well, and she's like, "5:30. Mom, you need to go do your Bible study." I'm like, "Oh, Jesus."
Mark: You are kidding. In the morning or at 5:30 p.m.?
Ellie: 5:30 a.m.
Mark: Your daughter is up?
Ellie: 5:30 to 6, she's up.
Mark: And checking your Bible study records?
Ellie: She used to sleep 'til 9. I don't know what happened. Something changed.
So she's like, "Mom, we need to go do our Bible study together." Now her Bible study right now is listening to Winnie-the-Pooh audio books.
Andrew: Good enough.
Ellie: And then drawing what pictures of what she's thankful for.
And then you just, there are so many times. I mean, just the other day, a lot of times when she gets in trouble, that kid, she knows that we love her. She knows that we love her. But I always tell this story. You know, gosh, I was about to go play a women's conference down in Texas. And I usually tell her where I'm going 'cause she gets sad when I leave. So it helps her to prep.
Andrew: This is where you are.
Ellie: So she traces where I'm going on a map that's next to our kitchen.
I was like, "Emmylou, I'm going to Texas, but this time I'm playing for younger girls. They're a little closer to your age, middle school and high school. And I get to sing and talk to them about Jesus. And is there anything you want me to tell them about?" And, y'all, she put her little hand over her heart and she goes, "Oh, Mama. Tell them all about me."
Mark: Did you tell them that?
Ellie: Oh, yes, absolutely.
Mark: Oh yes, you did. How much material has she given you?
Ellie: Is that not tons?
And I was like, "Oh, baby." And I just did what y'all did. I laughed and I said, "I will, baby, I will."
But here's the deal.
Mark: I love that.
Ellie: I got to thinking about it. And I am like, "Man, she knows that I could stand up and talk about her for an hour and a half," you know? She knows that we love her. And even if she's in trouble, usually, she'll be in time out, she's like, "But you still love me, Mom." And I'm like, "Yes. Shut your mouth. You're in trouble."
Andrew: Turn around, I love you.
Ellie: "You're in time out," yeah.
Mark: But just still love me.
Ellie: "But still love me, Mom."
But somewhere along the way, I think that we forget we get into trouble. You know, we have shame, we have things that we're…
And even the other day, she got in trouble for interrupting. Anyway, I was having a conversation with an adult, and she was whining, interrupting, and didn't listen. So I was like, as soon as the person left, I was like, "You, little miss, are in trouble. Get yourself up into time out." And she was like, just sobbing. And so literally she said to me… So this is a year later, that story was a year ago. She goes. (sobs) She was just sobbing, she doesn't usually cry that much. She usually just is sitting there fine, knows the deal. And she was like, "Mom, do you not love me anymore?"
Mark: Oh my.
Ellie: I didn't do anything different than any other time that she got in trouble. And I said, "Baby, what on earth would make you think that?" She said, "Well, I was hiding in the closet 'cause I knew that I was in trouble, and I thought you would be more scared that I was gone." I was like, "I knew you were hiding in the closet." And she was like, "I thought you would be glad to find me."
Mark: I thought you would be more scared that I was gone. She's smart.
Andrew: Look at that, yeah.
Ellie: She's smart.
Mark: She's already psycho-analyzing.
Ellie: She's like, "I know I'm gonna be in trouble, I'm gonna hide, and then she'll just be relieved that I'm not missing anymore."
Mark: Brilliant.
Ellie: And I was like, "Baby, I knew you were in the closet, and you are still in trouble. And there is nothing that you could ever, ever, ever." But already those little lies come into her head and I'm like, "Babe-
Andrew: Isn't that amazing how that's intuitive? Like there's a message.
Ellie: It happens in all of us.
Mark: I contend that you and others who have had children will have a greater judgment. Let me tell you why.
Ellie: Oh, man. No kidding.
Mark: Let me tell why.
Andrew: I hope you enjoyed coming today.
Ellie: I already know it. I'm like, "Oh Lord Jesus."
Mark: Because you have experienced that kind of love, that parent to child.
Andrew: No strings attached.
Mark: And how rude to think God doesn't think of you that way.
Ellie: It is.
Mark: And how rude to Him.
Ellie: It is. Well, that's exactly what I thought when she said that to me. I'm like, "I know exactly how this feels." 'Cause you're like, "There's no way, God, you can love me after I did something like that. I know better, God. I know better."
Andrew: I'll go hide.
Ellie: Literally, I'm just gonna go and hide. And it's a story from the beginning of time. And I love… Do y'all know Sally Lloyd-Jones?
Andrew: Oh yeah.
Ellie: She is an amazing author. She calls herself an advocate for children, and she writes children's books. She written "The Jesus Storybook Bible."
Andrew: And she wrote the Jesus Storybook, which you may have-
Ellie: Which the subtitle of that is "Every Story Whispers His Name." And so she takes every story that you would typically hear about or read in Sunday school, Old Testament and New, and weaves Jesus throughout each one, points to Jesus in each story.
Andrew: It's fantastic, yeah.
Ellie: It is so beautiful. But the way she talks about the Garden is that when Satan is talking to them, when the snake is talking to Eve, he's like, "Poor you. God must not really love you if he doesn't want you to have that fruit." And it says that Eve believed the lie that would sink down into the heart of every human being forever. Does God really love me? Does God really love me? You're just like, "Oh my goodness."
And so that, when she said that, I'm like, "Oh my goodness, This is me with God all the time."
Andrew: Absolutely.
Ellie: Do you really, though? Like you're allowing this thing to happen. I know you could do something about it. Do you really love me still?
Man, so I just am so grateful for the chance to preach to her what I need to preach to myself.
“I just am so grateful for the chance to preach to [my daughter] what I need to preach to myself.”
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Mark: Mark Lowry.
Andrew: And Andrew Greer.
Mark: Turning the light on.
Andrew: One question at a time.
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Food, Fellowship & Brenda featuring Brenda Gantt
The Southern hostess-with-the-mostest and Facebook cooking sensation Brenda Gantt invites the fellas into her cozy home and famous Cottle House Bed & Breakfast in Andalusia, Alabama to teach us how to make some good old-fashioned Pecan and Buttermilk Pies worthy of her now-famous slogan, “It’s gonna be good, y’all!”
The Southern hostess-with-the-mostest and Facebook cooking sensation Brenda Gantt invites the fellas into her cozy home and famous Cottle House Bed & Breakfast in Andalusia, Alabama to teach us how to make some good old-fashioned Pecan and Buttermilk Pies worthy of her now-famous slogan, "It's gonna be good y'all!"
Transcript
Mark: Dinner Conversations is brought to you by Food for the Hungry, an incredible relief and community development organization serving those with physical and spiritual needs around the world for 50 years this year.
Andrew: Help us as we help our friends at Food for the Hungry save thousands of lives in Ethiopia today by considering a generous gift.
Mark: A gift that will be matched 22 times.
Andrew: Your one-time gift will make an eternal difference. So visit fh.org/dinner to give now.
What am I doing? You might ask. I'm driving a van with a crew 'cause we're going to meet Mark, King Mark, who drove in on his bus in south Alabama to see Mrs. Brenda Gantt, Cooking with Brenda. Everyone knows her, she's a Facebook, Instagram sensation. We've yet to reach that level here on Dinner Conversations, and that's why I'm in a charcoal minivan driving up now.
Mark: We are at the table of Brenda Gantt, that's Cooking with Brenda Gantt on Facebook. She's got 2.7 million followers.
Andrew: I'm just behind you.
Brenda: Are you?
Mark: And we are so excited to show you her kitchen, her life, and this is an exciting place. I've been here before just to go to the Cottle House.
Andrew: And she's teaching us how to cook.
Mark: She is.
Andrew: Us old bachelors.
Mark: Two pies, I cooked two pies today.
Andrew: You did.
Mark: There's one seat left at the table, and it's yours.
Andrew: So let's join the conversation.
Mark: We are in the internationally famous, miss Cooking with Brenda Gantt on Facebook, Cooking with Brenda Gantt, G-A-N-T-T.
Andrew: He's so good at that advertising.
Mark: And she is gonna teach me how to make a pecan pie with Priester's Pecans. These are very special Alabama pecans.
Brenda: That's right, that's right.
Andrew: And I'm just being a helper, so you just tell me what you do...
Brenda: Yeah, all my kids, all my grandkids, come here, Banks. Let 'em see. I only got one here tonight.
Andrew: Hey, Banks.
Brenda: This is my Banksy. We call her Banks. Anyway, this is what she calls me. What do you call me?
Banks: Big Mama.
Brenda: Big Mama.
Andrew: And then who says "it's gonna be good, y'all"?
Brenda: I say that.
Mark: That's right.
Brenda: And everybody in America.
Andrew: They know it.
Mark: I'll say it now.
Brenda: Thanks, darling.
Mark: If you're not following Cooking with Brenda Gantt on Facebook, let me just tell you, I don't even know how I discovered her, but you are...
Brenda: Well, I know, I remember. You got to craving a biscuit, and so he said, he told his friends, he said, "You know, we're fixing to go to Alabama." And they said, "What are we going for?" He said, "A biscuit." And I won't say exactly what they said, but they said it better be good.
Mark: We did. We came, a bunch of my friends from college came, and stayed at the Cottle House, which is across the street, that she and her husband who's passed away, they started how many years ago?
Brenda: The Cottle House? '96, '96.
Mark: You gotta come stay, it's a riot. And she still comes over and cooks breakfast for the people staying in the Cottle House.
Brenda: We do. We have scrambled eggs with bacon on top, and we have smoked link sausages, and we have a fried apple pie and biscuits.
Andrew: Good for weight loss?
Brenda: And cheese grits. Yeah, it's real good for weight loss.
Andrew: Well, what you got today? What are you gonna help us make?
Brenda: So we're gonna make a pecan pie. So the first thing I want you to do, Mark, is to crack these eggs and try not to get a shell in it.
Mark: Okay, I'll do that.
Brenda: And put that in there, and we're gonna stir that up.
Andrew: Such a tender touch.
Mark: Oh, I'm telling you.
Brenda: Y'all, I would like to say these are yard eggs, but they're not though. We bought 'em.
Mark: Did you get them at the Piggly?
Brenda: No, no, I didn't.
Andrew: But that is kind of part of your thing, making the kitchen more accessible for people, right? They don't have to have chickens in their yard.
Brenda: That's exactly right.
All right, so just kinda stir that around a little bit. You're supposed to tilt your bowl.
Andrew: I knew that.
Mark: I didn't know that.
Brenda: You knew that?
Andrew: I knew that, yeah.
Mark: Look at here, how's that?
Brenda: Actually, you're doing a great job.
Mark: Look how good I'm doing, y'all.
Brenda: Let me do it a time or two.
Mark: Okay, you do it. You show me how to do it.
Brenda: You've got to, the egg's gotta come up over like this.
Andrew: Oh, oh, that's called whipping them, right?
Brenda: That's whipping them. That puts more air in there, and it does better like that.
All right, so next you're gonna put in your sugar, and we need, well, y'all know that we had three eggs, but now we're gonna, so y'all will know, this is coming outta my recipe book right here.
Mark: Yes, show that.
Andrew: Here, I'll hold that while you...
Brenda: No, we can just let them see the pages, so they're gonna have to buy it to look in it.
Mark: But you wanna buy it, y'all. I've got one.
Brenda: So anyway, so they're putting in now, he's putting in a half a cup of sugar. Tilt your bowl.
Mark: Oh, tilt my bowl.
Brenda: Slow learner today.
Mark: Okay.
Brenda: There you go. You're doing good now. You got it going.
Mark: Is that right?
Brenda: Yeah.
Andrew: So even bachelors can cook, huh? You know, we're two old bachelors.
Brenda: You wouldn't believe how many happy men I have in America. I had a lot of men that came over to the Cottle House, and they said, "I am so happy." And I said, "What you happy for?" "'Cause my wife is finally cooking after 50 years, and she's learned how to make biscuits." So, and they'll rub their bellies and say, "This is a biscuit belly."
Andrew: Did you tell 'em they could cook too?
Brenda: Yeah, yeah.
Andrew: Cook for their wives?
Brenda: As a matter of fact, let me tell you this story. Have we got time to tell it?
Mark: Yeah, we got time.
Andrew: We got time.
Brenda: This man went into the kitchen, y'all, and his wife was trying so hard to make biscuits like this, like I do, and she said, "I just can't do it. My hand ain't working." And he said, she had to be on the video, she was watching me at the time. He said, "Just move over. I can do this." And so he moved over, and he made the biscuits. And they were delicious, so she said and he said that every Saturday he gets up and they have fresh biscuits every Saturday.
Andrew: Really?
Mark: Nice.
Andrew: You know my dad cooked breakfast every Saturday. My mom cooked all week long, Dad did it on Saturday. That's right.
Brenda: That's right.
All right, So this is your...
Mark: Corn syrup.
Brenda: Corn syrup. And we've got, how much we got in there? We've got a cup.
Mark: Right at a little bit over a cup, it looks like.
Brenda: Well, it shouldn't, my measure goes, just pour it in there.
Andrew: That's safe for diabetics, right?
Brenda: And yes, and yeah, rake it out good with that so we can get all of it.
Mark: All the goodies.
Brenda: All the goody, that's what I call it.
Mark: I know. I follow you.
Brenda: All right, he's doing a fine job here with that.
Mark: That makes me feel so good.
Brenda: All right, now whip a little bit.
Mark: Okay.
Andrew: Oh, that's kind of a sloppy whip, isn't it?
Brenda: All right, so you're gonna need a little vanilla flavoring, and we're going need a teaspoon. You wanna do this?
Andrew: I'll do it, sure.
Mark: Come on now.
Andrew: Now, just an even teaspoon, right?
Brenda: An even teaspoon.
Andrew: All right, don't pour the whole thing.
Mark: Can you believe Brenda Gantt is teaching us how to make a pie? Most people have to watch her.
Brenda: You know, a lot of people like pecan pie, but they think it's hard to do, and it's really one of the easiest pies.
Andrew: Can I see that?
Mark: She doesn't trust you.
Brenda: Right, so this is it. That is your filling right there.
Mark: Your base.
Brenda: The base. And so now you're going to pour out pecans, and it says to do a cup and a half, and these are the whole pecans right here, y'all. They're... Let me show 'em to you. You see what I'm saying?
Andrew: So don't get the haves or the...
Brenda: And you wanna make sure, well, you could get the ones that are already kind of cut up, but we're not gonna do that today. But anyway, what I want to tell you is this. This has to be mixed in here. You don't just lay 'em pretty on the top because if you do, your pecans will burn. It's got to have some of this goody on it.
Mark: Okay.
Brenda: So go ahead and pour about a cup and a half. That's good.
Mark: Just a little bit more.
Brenda: Well, let's do one for good measure.
Andrew: Okay.
Mark: All right. And dump 'em in?
Brenda: Put 'em in and stir it around.
Andrew: Now do measurements have to be exact? Like my mom always did exact measurements.
Brenda: They're... When you're making cakes, pies, and cookies, you want to get as close as you can on measurements, but now, that's the only time you need to be measuring something. You, everything else, you just dump a little mayonnaise in or dump a little squash.
Andrew: By taste?
Brenda: A handful of cheese, you know what I'm saying?
Andrew: Yeah, yeah.
Brenda: Because if you measure everything you cook in life, you're gonna hate the kitchen.
Mark: But when you put this together, you had to go in and measure.
Brenda: I had to measure for everybody, like it drove me crazy.
Mark: I bet it did.
Brenda: All right, so y'all, being that Mark is not a professional cook yet, we decided to buy a pie shell.
Mark: Don't tell them. They would never have known.
Andrew: Do you usually make yours?
Brenda: Yes.
Andrew: Okay.
Brenda: So anyways, so just pour that in there.
Mark: Okay.
Andrew: Oh, that's nice, Mark.
Mark: Wait, I'm gonna spread it out.
Brenda: And we're gonna cook this on a 350 degree oven. See how the... Let me hold that where he can see. See how the juice is over the pecans? So that's what makes it taste good, okay.
Mark: That's good.
Brenda: All right, I'm gonna pop this in the oven.
Andrew: Can we lick that?
Brenda: Some people do.
Andrew: Here you go.
Brenda: Oh my goodness, I got something else in there. I gotta get that out.
Andrew: Do you want us to grab that?
Brenda: I made a green bean casserole, y'all. Let me get that thing. They're gonna eat with me tonight.
Mark: We are.
Andrew: We are honored. This is like, this is the sacred kitchen.
Mark: It is.
Brenda: This is a green bean casserole we've got, and it's nice. It's gonna be delicious. We got us some cornbread over here, a ham. Come here and look at this, what else we gonna have. Those are candied yams. Is that, don't that look good? And our ham, my big old ham's, in here. We got turnip greens and cornbread and sourdough bread and pepper jelly.
Andrew: Can you do that without thinking about it? Do you just do that without like if I look at this and thought about having 11 people over or how many are here tonight?
Brenda: Oh, it's fine. It's all turned out good.
Mark: She can do it in her sleep.
Andrew: I don't get it.
Brenda: So y'all, we've got that, the pecan pie on. Did we turn? I had the oven already warm, but let me turn it back.
Mark: 350?
Brenda: Yeah, 350. All right, it's going.
Now, we're gonna make another pie. Since we've got 11 of us, we're gonna, we want another pie. So this time we're gonna make something that's real southern. This is called a buttermilk pie, and we're going turn the paper over, and it's in the recipe book too.
Andrew: That you can purchase.
Mark: That's right.
Brenda: Yes, you can, you gotta.
Mark: You can pre-order it.
Andrew: That's right.
Brenda: That's right.
Andrew: By the time this episode airs, there'll be more in stock.
Brenda: So what we're gonna need on that. Let's see, we're gonna need vanilla. Let me get it back over here.
Andrew: No, see that's what I like.
Brenda: Hey, we gonna need a bowl again.
Mark: Oh yeah.
Brenda: I wonder how it'd be just to use this. Let's just use the same bowl. It doesn't matter. I mean, little syrup in it, it'll be fine.
Mark: Absolutely.
Andrew: Smells so good.
Brenda: It does.
Mark: Okay, now what?
Brenda: All right, so here we go. Buttermilk pie, you ready to mix?
Mark: I'm ready.
Brenda: You ready to critique him?
Andrew: Okay, I'll critique, yeah. You think he's got it this time?
Mark: You want me to crack the eggs?
Brenda: So, I'll read the recipe.
Mark: Okay.
Brenda: We need one pie crust.
Mark: Yeah, we do. There it is.
Brenda: There's our homemade. No, it's not homemade. Okay, see, this is what y'all need to do in your kitchens with your babies so that they can come out and cook and do some stuff.
All right, so Mark, take your cup of sugar and put it in your bowl.
Mark: Okay.
Brenda: And ooh, must have been wet in there.
Mark: That'll make 'em good.
Brenda: All right, so then we're going take two tablespoons. Now this is White Lily all purpose flour.
Mark: Not self rising.
Brenda: No, all purpose. Y'all, I call it plain, that's what I call it.
Put that two tablespoons of that in.
Mark: All right.
Brenda: Here's you something to stir around a little bit.
Oh my goodness, let me go put this in the microwave real quick. Y'all just continue to stir. Melt that for us. Banks said she'd do it. Banksy's melting our butter.
We've got two tablespoons of butter in there. I tell you what you can do while she's doing that. You can go ahead and put your eggs in, and it said to beat 'em. So please beat it in here.
Mark: I beat 'em first.
Brenda: I had a lady up the road, she brought me some eggs. She said she had the prettiest chicken house in this country, and anyway, her eggs were green and blue and speckled and beautiful, beautiful eggs.
Andrew: You didn't wanna crack 'em did you?
Brenda: No, I didn't.
Mark: I mean, you had some double yolk eggs for a while.
Brenda: I did. I had...
Andrew: So how does that happen? Is that like twins?
Brenda: There you go, Mark.
Mark: Am I doing all right?
Brenda: Thank you, Banks.
Mark: Thank you, Banks.
Brenda: It's good to have a little helper, ain't it?
Okay, go ahead and put that in, and then you stir that.
Mark: Oh, sorry.
Brenda: Look at his finger y'all.
Andrew: Ooh, what is that?
Brenda: Butter.
Mark: Butter, all right.
Brenda: All right, let's see what else we got right here. All we got to put in now is the vanilla and the buttermilk.
Andrew: Oh, I got you. I'm your vanilla man. A teaspoon?
Mark: I've always wondered how to make this.
Andrew: All right, one teaspoon?
Brenda: Yes.
Andrew: Or what you got?
Brenda: No, they put tablespoon.
Andrew: What do you think?
Brenda: I think it's table.
Andrew: Okay. Yeah, that's my kind of pie. You got a tablespoon.
Brenda: I'm trying to read my writing.
Mark: Whoa, that's a tablespoon. Is that too much?
Brenda: You know, back in the olden days, women did this.
Mark: Oh, they did?
Brenda: Did you know that, Banks?
Banks: Yes, I did.
Brenda: Who told you?
Banks: I've done it before.
Brenda: You've done it before?
Andrew: You have? What for?
Brenda: So she'd smell good.
Banks: Big Mamma told me about it one time.
Brenda: I smell like a cookie.
Andrew: Did you meet any new boys at school that day?
Brenda: I smell like a cookie, don't I? I smell like a cookie.
Andrew: You do. You smell like Christmastime.
Brenda: All right, so we've got that. I think the last thing is the buttermilk. Go ahead and put that in. And that, tell 'em how much we got in there.
Mark: We have one half cup of buttermilk, and if you don't have buttermilk, you can take sweet milk and add…
Brenda: Vinegar, they say.
Mark: Vinegar.
Brenda: But I always have buttermilk.
Mark: But I wonder if they have it everywhere in the country, do you think?
Brenda: Now here's the good thing, y'all, about this pie. I bet y'all have every single bit of these items in your pantry, and if somebody pops in, you can always make a buttermilk pie.
Andrew: Yeah, there was nothing complicated about any of this.
Brenda: No, no.
Mark: I can do it.
Andrew: Now, Mark does make a pretty mean little chili.
Mark: Yeah, I make good chili.
Brenda: He makes a good taco too. He made those for me.
Mark: That was good but not as good as I'd hoped.
Brenda: They were good.
Mark: You're so sweet.
Brenda: All right, I guess that's ready. You got it. Let me do one good, just for good measure.
Mark: All right.
Brenda: I'm scared.
Mark: You're scared? She's scared, y'all.
Brenda: Well, I want it to taste good.
Mark: Oh, I do too.
Brenda: All right, so that's all it is now. So when we put these in the oven, y'all, when you take 'em out… Is that sugar that didn't dissolve? What are you...?
Andrew: I don't know, yeah, kinda
Mark: It'll dissolve in the heat.
Andrew: Can I lick that?
Brenda: You better not, raw eggs.
Andrew: Raw eggs.
Mark: I make ice cream with raw eggs. I eat 'em.
Brenda: All right, y'all listen. When we put this in, we're gonna leave it about 30, 40 minutes, but it's got to have a slight jiggle. When you look in there and it just barely jiggles, it's done cause if you cook it too long, it's not gonna be good. So let me put this in.
Andrew: You ready?
Brenda: The good thing about making this is both of these pies cook on the same temperature, 350.
Mark: Oh, that is good.
Brenda: So you could have a… And most pies do cook on that, so that's good. So we've gotten all this done. We're just going… After a while, I'm gonna let Mark wash dishes.
Andrew: Yeah, there we go.
Mark: We do need that, we need that.
Brenda: And that'll be a good thing.
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Andrew: Where did you first learn to cook? Who taught you to cook?
Brenda: My mama. And she married at 17-years-old, and she didn't know how to cook, so daddy's mother and his aunts taught my mother and my mother taught me.
And the way she taught me was this. She always made me be in the kitchen, even when I was little. She would put me in there, and she'd say, "Stir this or set the table or," and you see it happening. You see it like that.
Let me stir it a little bit.
Mark: And she also said you're the messiest cook, right?
Brenda: She did. She said, "Brenda, you're the messiest thing." Well, actually she told me I'd mess up a two car funeral, but she said it tastes good.
Mark: Yeah, that's all that matters.
I love the story of how this all happened. I want you to tell these sweet people watching how you got to from just being Big Mama to 2.7 million followers on Facebook.
Brenda: Okay.
Mark: Tell me.
Brenda: All right, so y'all, my husband had dementia. So I took care of him for probably a year or two, a long time. But anyway, after he passed away, some guys in my church, and they're millennials, they asked me to do a little cooking show for, not cooking show, cooking lessons.
Mark: A video.
Brenda: Yeah. No, just they were gonna pay me for their wives to come to my house to learn how to cook.
Andrew: Cool. Wait, they were gonna pay to have their wives learn how to cook?
Mark: He's gonna pay her to teach the wife.
Brenda: So anyway, and they know how to cook. It's just they wanted something fattening, I guess. The millennials eat healthy. So anyway, so I told them, I said, "I ain't got time, y'all. I ain't got time."
So one day I was cooking dinner or lunch for Banks and her sisters. I do that every Sunday. So I decided I'd cook some biscuits. I stuck my hand down in the bowl, and I thought, I'm just gonna video this. So I held my phone like that. Well, actually I'm right-handed. I did like this. This is my phone hand. I made the biscuits with one hand. I pat 'em out, cut 'em out, put 'em on the little thing. I said, "Y'all, this is simple. You can do it." And so we put it on my Facebook page, and I had about 500 followers, mostly church folks, and I guess everybody shared it.
And so, because of that, within two weeks, it hit a million views, and here's the thing, the Lord did that. I had no plans. I had no plans to have a cooking show. I had no plans to teach anybody how to cook, but I did that that day, and that's showing that God opens doors for people. If you walk in, you're blessed, but some people don't walk in. And one day, this door too will be closed, and he'll open another one for whatever.
Mark: But you did, you prayed a prayer, right? Tell that part.
Brenda: Yes, I prayed that the Lord would help me to be a good influence on people and to be helpful and show me what I needed to do because I had been tending to my husband and I felt kinda like in a daze, I guess you'd say. You didn't know what you're supposed to do with your life, and I wanted to be helpful.
Mark: And I think everybody watching, pray that prayer. "Lord, please let me be helpful. let me bless someone today." I think that is the most incredible prayer, and I tell people about you in my concerts sometimes.
Andrew: For any age.
Mark: Any age, that's right, especially if you're now a widow, which many of you watching probably are 'cause I have a lot of single women following me that are widows and never married and that type of thing.
Brenda: Well, they have to get out. You got to get out and see what doors are opened, and so my prayer is that we could be a light for those that need a light and...
Andrew: Do you feel like a lot of people in that kind of age range of whatever, 65-plus, who are finding themselves maybe at a retirement age or maybe they are widowed, like Mark was saying...
Brenda: And they've given up their jobs.
Andrew: Yeah, do you feel like a lot of them feel an aimlessness? Are you hearing that from people, that they're finding new motivations in your...
Brenda: Yes, I am, and a lot of the gifts that people have been sending me, great things. Some of them are painters, some of them are book writers, some of them sew or they knit and they crochet, and they make crafts and they do all this fine stuff, and some of 'em are cooks. They just watch me to be with me. They already know all this stuff. They're good cooks. And so I do find that, but we all have a purpose, everybody. Banks has got a purpose too.
Andrew: I've heard you talk about how, I saw this in the interview, which it was a great interview, and they were talking about people who don't really, like my generation and below, millennials and below, don't really know what to do with the kitchen. We're kind of intimidated by it because we've always had food at our fingertips going out. So you're kind of helping instill in us it doesn't have to be difficult, it doesn't have to be hard, but it is important.
Brenda: Yes, it is. It's important because during the pandemic, I had one lady that wrote in, and she said, "I have had to cook three meals today." Well, in the olden days, that wasn't anything. You cook breakfast, you cook dinner, and you cooked supper, and that was… But she was in shock 'cause you couldn't go out and get any chicken fingers.
Mark: Don't you think though living in Andalusia where there's really nowhere to eat out-
Andrew: There's a Subway.
Brenda: Well, we've got a few.
Mark: I mean, there's not as many.
Brenda: I know, as big towns, but listen, I will say this, our restaurants are good. And I will say this, they're always crowded because you don't have so many and everybody goes to...
Mark: Have you thought about starting one?
Brenda: Everybody's asked me to.
Mark: Miss Brenda's.
Brenda: But I'm not because you gotta be married to a restaurant.
Mark: Yeah, you do.
Brenda: You're married to it. I mean, it's full-time.
Mark: Well, where do you see all this going? Do you think you're gonna run outta recipes?
Brenda: Oh no.
Mark: Really?
Andrew: Why is that? Well, where do they come from?
Brenda: Well, I made one up the other day, and everybody loved it. I told 'em to name it.
Mark: What was it?
Brenda: Well, I hadn't named it yet.
Mark: Well, what was in it? What was in it?
Brenda: I tell you what, I went to the beach with all my girlfriends, and so when we got home, you know, when you go off and you look in your refrigerator, there's nothing there because you cleaned it out before you left. But I saw I had three apples, I had some bacon, and I had some butter. So I split my apple open, and I cored it out, and I put brown sugar in it. I put a pat of butter on top, some cinnamon and cheese. Then I got my bacon, and I wrapped it around the apple, put it in a casserole dish, and baked it. It was so good.
Mark: I bet.
Brenda: Bacon was real crispy and the apple was tender. So I mean...
Mark: What are we gonna name that? Let's have a contest.
Brenda: We already did.
Mark: Oh, what'd you name it?
Brenda: I hadn't picked it, but there must have been maybe 200 or 300 names. They were all good.
Mark: People called, wrote in.
Brenda: I told 'em, I said, "Y'all help me name it." So if I need a name for it, I'm gonna pick one of the names.
Mark: Well, you will need a name for it now.
Andrew: Why do you think it's important that we, like we're about to go eat, you've prepared this beautiful meal for us.
Mark: A banquet.
Andrew: Yeah, and there's 11 of us here, and we're gonna go sit down around that big table that your husband made from wood here in the area.
Brenda: Right.
Andrew: Why do you think it's important that we gather around the table and food as a motivator for that?
Brenda: Because we bond, we bond, that is how you bond. When Banks and them come over here on Sundays, we sit around the kitchen table 'cause we could all fit around it, and we sit there, we talk, we bond together.
Mark: And I love the way you pray before this, the meal. Y'all stand.
Brenda: We always hold hands.
Mark: Yeah, I was here once. Me and my fab five from college, we go on a trip about twice a year where we chose Cottle House 'cause we were hoping we'd meet Brenda, and she of course came over and then we sang together. She had never sung really in public.
Brenda: No.
Mark: But what a fun time that was around your table, and I loved how y'all got up, and every Sunday they stand up around the table, hold hands, and pray. I was in this circle, and I loved it.
Andrew: It's like the dinner table is kind of more like church in a lot of places.
Brenda: And you know, if I were talking to the people out in Facebook land, which I guess I am, here's what I would say. Don't bring your cell phone to the table. Turn them off, and at least sit there 10 minutes after you finish eating and discuss something and talk.
I know when my kids were little, we had those phones that went on your wall.
Andrew: The cord.
Brenda: Yeah, the cord. So you just took the phone, you took that part off, laid it down, and nobody could call. And we'd say, "Did y'all take the phone off the hook?"
Mark: Yeah.
Andrew: Yeah.
Brenda: And we took the phone off the hook, and they would say, I said, "We're gonna sit here and talk," and they'd say, "Oh mama, what are we gonna talk about?" I said, "I don't know, but something will come up," and it always does.
So I know people out there today, they're so busy, but y'all need to find a time, and one of the stories that in my book is about my daddy working until 11 o'clock at night, but he always got up in the morning and ate breakfast with us because to him that was important because he wasn't there at supper because he was at work. But he would. We had breakfast. That was our meal to be together. So it doesn't matter what meal, just as long as you're eating together.
Mark: Now was your mother a talker like you? Have stories and stuff?
Brenda: Yes, yes.
Mark: And your daughter, Hannah, is your mini me. I mean, the smile is the same.
Brenda: Oh my goodness, well, anyway.
Mark: Well, I'll tell you what captured me with you is when I opened up my, and you're right in my face on Facebook, "Hello, Facebook friends!" I was hooked because you lure people, and God has given you a gift-
Brenda:Well, thank you.
Mark: To reach people, touch them, and they feel like they know you. I felt like I knew you before I got here. I mean, I literally am a fan of this lady.
Brenda: Well, I think that people, they have told me that they connect with me, and they said, "Who's filming you? Are you talking to them?" I said, "No, I'm not talking to them. I'm talking to you." I'm talking to my people that are watching.
Andrew: Yeah, it's just your phone on a tripod or whatever on a little...
Mark: You don't have your thing, right?
Brenda: No.
Mark: She has an oatmeal box that she sticks some sort of holder for her camera, and she moves it around. Y'all, this is low tech, I'm telling you, but it works.
Andrew: It does.
Mark: 2.7 million of y'all are watching her.
Brenda: Oh my goodness.
Andrew: Tell me this. Okay, you cooked for years for your kiddos. How many kids do you have?
Brenda: Two.
Andrew: Okay, for your two kids and then cooked for your husband for years. Do you find that cooking is a connection still even to your husband now that he's gone?
Brenda: Yes, cooking is. He loved my cooking, and the only difference is it's just me here, but I still cook. Like I'll just steam me a cabbage and cook a quick pan of cornbread or something, so I eat. I have to eat.
Mark: And you cook just for yourself too sometimes.
Brenda: Oh, I do.
Mark: See, that's what's hard for a lot of people, to cook for one.
Brenda: Well, some people are doing it now because I told them to.
Andrew: Yeah, that's right.
Brenda: Don't just get in there and fix some cereal. Cook you something.
Andrew: It's kind of like there's some self worth to that or something, you know what I mean? Like if I take the time.
Brenda: I mean, just to eat.
Andrew: We eat so fast though. I'll find myself standing up making something 'cause I like to eat healthier food, so I'll do it outta my fridge, but I'll sit here and just eat it.
Mark: Well, you're alone. What difference does that make? I mean, really, I mean.
Andrew: Because I'm of value and worth.
And my parents were visiting me these past couple weeks, and my mom said one time, 'cause I was getting ready to leave, she said, "Why don't you sit down and enjoy that meal?" And there is something to that. It kind of connects us even then.
Brenda: You need to always listen to your mama.
Mark: Yes, I wish I could listen to mine.
Brenda: That's a take out with that, that's right.
Mark: What I love about your program, I even watched the one that was like an hour long, your whole day from morning to night.
Brenda: They all like that.
Mark: And you ended up in bed having a Bible study. That's how it ended with her night devotions.
Andrew: That's cool.
Mark: I just followed that whole day, but you always end your shows with something about Jesus it seems like, and I love that.
Brenda: He's the reason, and that's all I can say. He is the reason for life itself.
Mark: Absolutely.
The Abide Bible Sponsorship Message
Mark: The Bible is the foundation of our theology. We would not know of Jesus if it weren't for the Bible. We wouldn't know about grace. We wouldn't know about how God cares for us. And there is a new Bible out called the Abide Bible. You know how Jesus said, if you abide in me as I abide in my father, and we abide in each other, and it's just a continual feed off each other. And what I like about this Bible is it's asking us to go deeper.
Andrew: Yeah, it's taking an approach to the Bible from being just simply informational to really being invitational. So there's a lot of prompts in this Bible to journal alongside Scriptures. It gives you opportunity to pray certain Scriptures at different seasons of your life, to meditate on the Scripture. There's beautiful artwork in here that's really cool cause it's not just like some kind of Sunday school artwork. They're using like da Vinci and beautiful pieces of classic art to really just get us to imagine, to be able to use all of our senses as we enter into Scripture, so that we really step into the story of Scripture, not just see it as words on a page but as part of a living, breathing active part of our lives. And you know what? I asked my brother one time, who's a pastor, I said, "Why is the Bible so important?" And he said exactly what you said a second ago, because it is the greatest written revelation of who God is. And so it gives us the opportunity to know God but also to be a part of God's story. That's the Abide Bible.
Mark: So go to abidebible.com to get your copy today.
Brenda: Hey y'all, our pies are ready.
Andrew: Oh good.
Brenda: Now if they're not good, it's not my fault. It's these two men. Well, they look delicious.
Mark: They do.
Andrew: Mark, you did nice.
Brenda: There's our pecan pie.
Mark: Look at that pecan pie I made.
Brenda: And here's your buttermilk pie. I know it doesn't look as tempting, but it's going to be delicious, y'all. As I say, it's gonna be good, y'all.
Andrew: That's right.
Brenda: And any of y'all with nothing to do, you can come clean out my oven one day.
Mark: Is it filthy?
Brenda: Well, I don't know. I cook it all the time. It's kind of hard to keep it clean.
Andrew: We'll do it for you.
Brenda: Anyway, these look really good, and here's the thing about both of these pies. They do not need refrigerating. So you could make these the day before Thanksgiving, leave them out. I just put a cake dome on top of mine to kind of keep 'em...
Mark: Keep the flies off.
Brenda: We don't have flies in Andalusia.
Chris: You have gnats.
Brenda: No, we don't. We got gnats.
Andrew: Gnats, look at that, Chris. Wow, he's...
Brenda: So anyway, this is it. Hope y'all enjoy.
Andrew: Did you do this while mowing the lawn? Isn't that your favorite pastime?
Mark: She still mows the grass around here.
Brenda: Are they still videoing?
Mark: Oh, well, they'll go on and on. Why do you mow the grass?
Brenda: Because it's relaxing. You can get on the lawn mower and sing. George used to sing on the lawn mower. He sang on the tractor. Banks sings in the shower. We're a singing bunch.
Mark: All right, let's sing.
Sweet hour of prayer
Sweet hour of prayer
That calls me from a world of care
And bids me at my Father's throne
Make all my wants and wishes known
Mark: I've sang twice with Brenda Gantt.
Andrew: She's a good singer.
Brenda: All right, y'all. Here we go.
Andrew: All right.
Brenda: That's it now. Come on, let's go eat.
Mark: Greens, yams, green bean casserole, corn bread.
Andrew: You're cool.
Brenda: Come here, Banks, and be with me in the ending. I want you and you. She got her hair all curled up and pretty.
Andrew: Look at her.
Mark: You come here, this pretty thing.
Andrew: Are you gonna be doing this one day?
Brenda: Oh, she already cooks.
Andrew: Oh, you already cook, huh?
Mark: Do you think you can take over for Big Mama?
Andrew: Well, hang on now. Currently, I'm Big Mama.
Mark: Thank you for watching Dinner Conversations. Don't forget to subscribe, and then ring that bell and get all notifications.
Andrew: And don't forget to like us or dislike us. Don't do that. Leave comments, talk about what's resonating in your life from these conversations, and join us next time for Dinner Conversations with--
Mark: Mark Lowry.
Andrew: And Andrew Greer.
Mark: Turning the light on.
Andrew: One question at a time.
Mark: Dinner Conversations is brought to you by Food for the Hungry, an incredible relief and community development organization, serving those with physical and spiritual needs around the world for 50 years this year.
Andrew: Help us as we help our friends at Food for the Hungry save thousands of lives and Ethiopia today by considering a generous gift.
Mark: A gift that will be matched 22 times.
Andrew: Your one-time gift will make an eternal difference. So visit fh.org/dinner to give now.
Losing Control featuring Jimmy Fortune and Ben Isaacs
Two of Country and Gospel music's main men – The Statler Brothers' Jimmy Fortune and The Isaacs' Ben Isaacs – share their stories of learning to love the addicts in their families, and what they learned about themselves and what they let go of in the process. Plus, Jimmy and The Isaacs sing for us!
Two of Country and Gospel music's main men – The Statler Brothers' Jimmy Fortune and The Isaacs' Ben Isaacs – share their stories of learning to love the addicts in their families, and what they learned about themselves and what they let go of in the process. Plus, Jimmy and The Isaacs sing for us!
Transcript
Mark: Dinner Conversations is brought to you by Food for the Hungry, an incredible relief and community development organization serving those with physical and spiritual needs around the world for 50 years this year.
Andrew: Help us as we help our friends at Food for the Hungry save thousands of lives in Ethiopia today by considering a generous gift.
Mark: A gift that will be matched 22 times.
Andrew: Your one-time gift will make an eternal difference. So visit fh.org/dinner to give now.
Mark: I've known Ben Isaacs a long time because of the Isaacs. You know, he is the oldest sibling in that group, family group. And--
Andrew: Not older than his mom.
Mark: No, of course, but his mom is still part of the group too. I mean, the founding member, and oh my goodness, what harmonies they've got, but come to find out, Ben is a control freak.
Andrew: Who would have thought?
Mark: Who would have thought? But you know, you almost have to be when you're the head of a family group. Bill Gaither, control freak.
Andrew: They're directors.
Mark: He even tells you where to sit. So all the greatest I think leaders… Yeah, you're a control freak.
Andrew: I'm like that too.
Mark: But I like that. As long as they're leading it the way I would do it, if I had to do it.
Andrew: So, doesn't that make you a control freak?
Mark: Well...
Andrew: It doesn't matter. We all have our preferences. Ben is a wonderful human being. And he is talking about his family member struggles with addiction and him walking on that journey alongside that family member of course.
Mark: What it's like when you don't have the addiction but it affects you as much as if you did.
Andrew: Sure, and you don't have control over it.
Mark: Right.
Andrew: The same thing is happening with our friend Jimmy Fortune, who is a part of this. I got to sit down with Jimmy here in Nashville and talk about his very incredible life. Of course, tons of musical experience, the Statler Brothers and now as Jimmy Fortune, but his experience with his father who was an alcoholic. Both of these lives though have turned around, and as a result, Jimmy's life and Ben's life, they have experienced growth and change and transformation for sticking it out, walking through with their families as they walk through the road of addiction to recovery.
Mark: And it's a good show. And we've got one seat left at the table, and it's yours. So let's join the conversation.
Andrew: Jimmy, so I'm thrilled. Here's what I'm most thrilled about. It's a little bit of a selfish reason is that, you know, Mark and I do some interviews together. We conquer and divide. He lives in Houston, I live here. So when we got the opportunity to talk to you, of course, you're good friends with our executive producer, Celeste Winstead, who's our good friend.
Jimmy: Everybody loves Celeste. I mean, what can you say?
Andrew: I have a feeling that's why you're here, for Celeste. You know, like Andrew who, Mark bozo, no. You know, that kind of thing.
But I'm excited because when we divide and conquer, I get someone's full attention. You've been around Mark Lowry.
Jimmy: It's hard to get full attention around Mark. I mean, the boy is wide open, but I will say this, he's not only one of the funniest guys in the world, but he's one of the greatest singers I've ever heard. I mean, when they… I mean, literally.
Andrew: He downplays it completely.
Jimmy: He downplays it. And I mean, he will literally make you just stand there and with your mouth open and go, "My gosh, what did I just hear?" He's that good, I know.
Andrew: He is. I agree. I mean, I don't want to talk too much about Mark. He is awesome.
You're a good singer too. And I, you know, as I was commenting because listening to you just here in this house and when your voice is completely filling up the space. And I've heard you on record for years, of course not only in your solo stuff over the past, what you were saying, 18 years now since the Statler Brothers retired, but the 20 years of catalog before that with them and, but never heard you live. Where did music begin? Like where do you first remember resonating with music somewhere inside that was like, this is a special, this different?
Jimmy: Well, of course my family sang. I'm number seven of nine children. And daddy went broke making Fortunes. He really did. So, put that in your pipe and smoke it.
Andrew: Okay, okay.
Jimmy: But anyway, my family sang in churches and everything, and I was 6-years-old when I realized that not everybody could sing. I was standing next to my mom in church, and this man came in, the pew right behind me, and whatever came out of his mouth flipped me totally around in the pew. I'm standing next to my mom and I'm looking at this man. I said, "And mama," I said, "Mama, something is really wrong with this guy. What is wrong?"
Andrew: He's sick.
Jimmy: Yeah, he's sick. And so she said, that's when I realized, she said, "You know, don't look at that man. You going to hurt his feelings." She said, "You know, I'll tell you later about why."
Andrew: She had some great revelation to you.
Jimmy: So on the way home she says, "Jimmy, you know, it's okay when, if you come to church, not everybody can sing. God has given you a gift. It's a gift. And not everybody has that gift." And so this man comes to church. She said, "He's making a joyful noise, son, to the Lord." I mean, you know, but...
Andrew: That's all you got.
Jimmy: I said, "Mama, you're right. It's a noise, but there ain't nothing joyful about it."
Andrew: I don't want to hear that man again.
Jimmy: For some reason, I said, I told mama, I said, "Ma…” I understood what she was trying to say, but I said, "You know what, I bet when everybody gets to heaven, when you get to heaven, everybody can sing." And she said, "Well, that's nice, son. Why do you think that?" I said, "Because I'm pretty sure God ain't putting up with that." But that's when I realized--
Andrew: You thought you had a little in with God too, didn't you?
Jimmy: Yeah. So anyway, I started singing with my family, of course. And then I got a guitar, I found a guitar. When I talk about my family being poor, poor, poor, we were really poor. And back in Virginia, central Virginia. And I found an old guitar, a piece of junk guitar with two strings on, in a dump near our house. I was eight. I took it back home, and I played on those two strings for about four years. I was just doing stuff. And mom and dad finally said, "Hey, we're going to try to buy you a guitar this Christmas." Christmas, 1967. And they said, "Don't know if we can or not, but we're gonna try." So they bought me.... They… Christmas that year I'm--
Andrew: Cause you were already fooling around with that little two string.
Jimmy: Yeah, I was already fooling with that and picking out melodies and stuff. And so Christmas night, Christmas Eve, mom and dad came up to me and said, "Hey, we thought we were going to be able to get this guitar for you, but we really couldn't afford it this year, Jimmy, you know?"
And so I was so devastated, disappointed, but then I went to bed and I was thinking, woke up a little. I really couldn't go to sleep. I was so excited. And I was like, well, maybe they're just trying to fool me. You know? So I had this hope, you know, but yet I didn't, you know?
Andrew: Holdin' out hope.
Jimmy: That Christmas morning I get up and I go to the, get ready to go in the living room. I open the door, and I see this beautiful Harmony guitar on the couch next to the Christmas tree. And I ran over and I grabbed the guitar and I just held onto it. I remember just holding it. I said, "This is a real guitar with six strings on it?" I was so excited. And I said, "Daddy, if I can learn to play and sing at the same time, I'm going to make a living at this. This is what I want to do."
And daddy is like, "Son, are you crazy?" He said, "You can't make a living playing music. Why do you think they call it playing?" That's what he told me. And to him, it was a hobby. It wasn't anything anybody was ever going to do. And to me, it was everything. I knew it in my heart. You know, I said, this is, really this is what I want to do.
And I started learning songs and I started playing. I had a band by the time I was 13 and we were playing. Our first gig was in Lovingston Elementary School in Nelson County, Virginia for a PTA meeting. Four of us made a dollar a piece. And we thought--
Andrew: You probably thought–
Jimmy: I told my dad, I said, "Son, we're on our way. We are on our way."
Andrew: We aren't playing anymore.
Jimmy: We made a dollar that night. We walked there. It's about three miles from my house. And we walked right out to a little restaurant there on the side of the road and blew it all on a milkshake. And I think one of the happiest days of my life where I had my guitar strongly on my back and we were walking down the road back to the house thinking, man, wasn't that great? We did something we love to do and made money at it.
Andrew: I mean, did you feel some responsibility? And I mean, for the record here too--
Jimmy: I gotta take a bite.
Andrew: You have to eat because we are having the worst Dinner Conversation meal. Actually, it's the best. Eat your heart out, Mark. Because he would love this food.
Jimmy: There you go, Mark.
Andrew: We've had all, you know, we usually have farm to table food, and it's very, it's good for you, keeps you in shape, and that kind of thing, but we heard you don't like anything green. So this meal is specifically for you.
Jimmy: Well, except for money.
Andrew: Yeah.
So when your mom first explained to you like about that guy next to you, singing that couldn't, you know, carry a tune. And she explained it as a gift, as something that you had been given.
Jimmy: Right.
Andrew: That could of course be excelled at, crafted, shaped, whatever. Did you feel, even at that age, a certain responsibility with that or more just a freedom from that?
Jimmy: I always felt… I always felt this presence around me, even at a young age. Even when I used to play, when I was alone playing. Whether it was out in the woods swinging on a grapevine, down near a river by myself, I always felt this presence around me. And I always felt like it was, mom always instilled in me that, you know, that God was gonna take care of me, that he was everything that, you know, I could pray. I could talk to God, you know, anytime I wanted to. She was just this prayer warrior and just, I just felt her prayers being answered all the time. I still feel it today even though she's been gone. But I felt...
As time went on, she wanted me to be a preacher. She kind of wanted me to go into the ministry. And I think my dad kind of would rather me have done that too. But of course, I got into playing music and I got out playing clubs and things like that. And I was in the rock and roll and I was into all kinds of genres of music and they didn't like that. They always wanted me to… But I came back to that. I came back to what my roots were because I went through so many changes in my life. And some of those dead end roads wound up as dead end roads that I followed. And I always felt mama's prayers bringing me back, you know, to what really meant the most, what God wanted me to do.
And it's led me to where I'm at right today because back even to when the Statler Brothers retired, I talked to God a lot about, "Hey, what do you want me to do?" And he pretty much said, "I want you to do what I want you to do." I want you to… My purpose in music is to put forth a feeling of hope and of inspiration, of forgiveness, because we go through life and we make so many mistakes, which I did. But the fact is that if God can help me and do it for me, he can do it for anybody. I saw him, my dad, healed of alcoholism through my mom's prayers. So these are all the things that brought me to where I'm at today. So I've always known that God had a purpose for me, but it took me a while to really find that purpose, the real purpose.
“I’ve always known that God had a purpose for me, but it took me a while to really find that purpose.”
Andrew: Do you think some of that… I know you've talked about your dad having some of those demons through that disease of alcoholism and in your childhood years and do you feel like… Sometimes, I mean, I think especially as men, we look to our fathers as examples and the messages we long to receive, the messages we do receive, all of that combines and creates some of how we feel about ourselves in the future, how we interact with the world around us, the relationships we have, our children, our marriages, whatever, even professionally. Do you feel like some of your relationship with your father is what maybe, did that influence kind of that longer road back home a little bit? Was there some insecurities there?
Jimmy: Yeah. I was like my daddy's shadow when I was little. He played square dances and things like that. He'd go out on Saturday night and--
Andrew: So he's a musician.
Jimmy: He was a musician. He played mandolin and the old square dances and things. And of course, mama would make us get up on Sunday morning and go to church and repent after being out on, you know? I was just a kid and he would give me an old guitar just to pluck on and I'd sit back and I'd just play on it until my fingers would bleed. And I'd be up with him until all hours of the night. Sometimes I had to even drive him home as a kid because he'd be so intoxicated. And he'd say, "Well, if you don't tell your mom I've been drinking, I won't, I'll let you drive." And I was like, well, yeah, man.
The first thing I did, walk through the door and my mama said, "Your dad's been drinking, ain't he?" "Yup."
Andrew: You never held up your end of the deal.
Jimmy: But those were the beginnings of all of that. And then as time went on, the drinking got so bad that, you know, my dad eventually, you know, it was just staying away from home. He got to running around on mom and things like that. And it all came to a head one night. And I remember it got so bad that, I loved my daddy with all my heart, but I got to where I didn't care if he came home or not.
Andrew: Because of how it changed the environment?
Jimmy: Yeah. And so it was one night in 1967, it was in spring of 1967. My mom and dad got in a big fight and it was really bad. And so my dad, we didn't know what he was going to do. He went out of the house. We thought he was going to maybe take a gun and kill himself. He'd gotten to that point. You know, we knew he had a gun in the car and stuff like that.
And I remember going out after this big fight, and I hid behind a maple tree in the yard. And I was sitting there waiting for this gunshot to go off cause I thought, man, this is it. This is probably, he's going to end it all because, and I didn't hear the shot. And I remember I started peeking around the tree and I saw my dad come up to the front porch and my mom was on, standing on the front porch. And he said, her name was Bird. He called her Bird. It was a nickname. He said, "Bird, you know, I think I've just about lost everything." He said, "You've prayed for me." And he said, "I've tried everything to quit." He said, "I'm going to give God a try." He said, "Jerry Falwell is coming to preach at Oak Hill Baptist Church tomorrow at revival.
Andrew: At your church.
Jimmy: Our church. And he said, "Let's take all the family and we'll go." We all went. And my dad that night ran up this aisle and fell at the aisle with his tears and just a broken man. I mean, he was broken. And he said he wanted to give his life to the Lord. And he wanted, he loved his family. He didn't want to lose his family. And from that moment on, he became my hero. I mean, the real, the alcohol was gone. He let it go.
I remember those men coming to the house saying, "Come on, man, you got to go with us." And he, "No, I'm not. I'm staying here." He'd stand there and tell them. He said, "I love my family and y'all go on and have fun." They would just laugh at him. "That's not going to last long. We'll come back next week." Well, next week came around and he didn't go.
Andrew: You saw him make a choice.
Jimmy: I saw him make… And when I saw my dad, that was probably the biggest turning point of my life. I was 12. And I saw that happen with my dad and I knew that I had hang ups too. I had things in my life that only God could help me get over. And so when I saw my dad do that, what am I going to do when things come to that road for me? I'm going to choose God.
My mom would say, "Jimmy, don't run from God, run to God. No matter what you do, you don't run from him, run to him." And I found that there's so much comfort in that, the forgiveness of God. And saw the forgiveness through my mom for my dad, for things that she just totally said. You know, when he gave his life to the Lord, I don't care about all that stuff. And he just, he became my hero.
I saw him save people's lives. I saw him just do so many things that the real person could come out. The real person that he was, that alcohol and everything was hiding. And that's what God can do for anybody. He can do it for my daddy. I saw him going on…
We had an outdoor toilet. I mean, I know this sounds funny. She would throw his liquor away in the toilet and he'd go get it out. That's how bad he had it. I mean, that's bad.
Food for the Hungry Sponsorship Message
Mark: Dinner Conversations is brought to you by Food for the Hungry, an incredible relief and community development organization serving those with physical and spiritual needs around the world for over 50 years now.
Andrew: And at this very moment, Food for the Hungry is helping restore dignity and hope in the lives of thousands of families in the Dera district of Ethiopia. Men, women, and children who have been exposed to unimaginable environmental and population hardships resulting in starvation and abysmal living conditions, including unclean water, poor hygiene habits, and inadequate sanitation, escalating the transmission of preventable waterborne diseases and causing severe illness and unnecessary death, especially among children.
Mark: But with our help today, that's you and us, Food for the Hungry is providing 15 area schools with proper latrines, hand washing facilities, and health and hygiene training. This will save people's lives. Don't you want to be a part of that? I do. I have 17 places to wash my hands in my home, and you know, TV preachers, I've seen them say, "Plant your seed. Plant your seed." Well, let's talk about the soil. This is good soil. You don't wanna plant your seed throwing tomato seeds out on interstate 40. Don't expect tomatoes. You better make sure the soil is good.
Andrew: I love, Mark, that we get to be a part. You give today and join Food for the Hungry and us in the long-term development of thousands of families by providing clean water, health and hygiene training, hand washing stations, and life-saving latrines.
Mark: And don't forget, your gift will, once again, be matched 22 times when you give specifically at fh.org/dinner.
Andrew: So that means $50 will become $1,100, $100 becomes $2,200, and a gift of $1,000 becomes $22,000. These communities' needs are urgent, and our help is crucial in transforming today's despair into tomorrow's hope. So give today because your generous gift to Food for the Hungry will literally help save lives.
Mark: Donate today at fh.org/dinner.
Visit Dinner-Conversations.com for DVDs, CDs, and more!
Mark: Did you know that at dinner-conversations.com, we have a store. We have been around long enough to produce products.
Andrew: That you want.
Mark: You want this. A Dinner Conversations mug to hold your eight ounces of coffee in the morning, or less. And then one if you wanna look at us. See how intellectual I look with my glasses.
Andrew: You look like you're judging me.
Mark: Well, I am. It gives me that intellectual look.
Andrew: We also have DVDs full of all of our episodes and a bunch of bonus content you can't find anywhere else. We've got this Season One DVD with all kinds of guests, like Sandi Patty and Chonda Pierce and Point of Grace. And we've got this Season Two DVD set. I mean, these are tons of disks, Kathie Lee Gifford, Montell Jordan, Scott Hamilton, Amy Grant. And you know what else we have? We have the Songs from the Set CD where we sing a little bit together, but also, you'll hear a lot of songs from people like Russ Taff and The Isaacs, some of our very favorites. You can find all of that at dinner-conversations.com.
Mark: Well, we have one-third of the Isaac sensation, actually one-fourth because your mom is still adding that fourth part. And I love watching her up there, but I just was with you at Family Fest. We had a great time. But you are the producer, the brains.
I tell everybody Sonya… I tell everybody Sonya is the show, Becky is the heart, and you are the blend. I've told everybody. I told Bill that.
Ben: Yeah. You know, Bill told me you told him that.
Mark: No, but that's what Bill Gaither says about y'all. And that's the truth. That high, showy voice of Sonya, which is one of the greatest, but that blend that you do when you, oh, I love a good blend, you know?
Ben: Well, thank you.
Andrew: It's part of I think what made you such a huge part of the Brotherly Love project. You know, we were just talking with Jimmy Fortune--
Ben: Oh, I love him so much.
Andrew: I mean, you two… I mean, I just had a friend who was with you guys, they were visiting in town, but they came back and they said, "We were with the best musicians tonight." And I was, they showed pictures of you and Jimmy, and I was like, "Of course you were." They didn't even know who they were with, greatness--
Mark: Have y'all done shows together?
Ben: We've done a few live things. We did, it was actually a made for TV quartet. It's Jimmy Fortune, Bradley Walker, Mike Rogers and myself. And you know, it's just, we're a bunch of characters. We all have our own separate identity thing that we do, but when the four of us, when we sing together, talk about a blend. It's just… It's hard to sing bad because the blend, Jimmy is so hard and so straight tone that no matter what, you're going to drift into his big, old, beautiful wide tone. So it is… It's been fun. It's been a blast.
Andrew: Well, and call it Brotherly Love too, which I think, you know, you think about a timely just kind of theme and message too. And this… I mean, y'all filmed it right before the shutdown of the world.
Ben: February.
Andrew: Yeah, right before we kind of had our topsy-turvy 2020.
Mark: Are you the producer of that group?
Ben: Yeah.
Mark: So are you the producer of the Isaacs? So are you a control freak?
Ben: Am I? Are you?
Mark: Absolutely.
Ben: I am very, very, very, very strong type A.
Mark: I don't know how strong I am, but to me, all the great leaders, Bill Gaither, you know this, when you go to eat with him, he'll tell you where to sit. Does he not? And that's not exaggeration.
Andrew: He's a director there.
Mark: Oh yeah. He'll say, "Mark, sit over here. You sit there and there." He's controlling the room. You do it?
Ben: I don't tell people where to sit. I do. You know, I have spent my life traveling with my mom and my sisters. I'm the oldest child. I'm also the only boy. And from the time I was 14-years-old, I was driving the bus.
Mark: Wow.
Ben: Setting up PA system. You know, when I was 16-years-old, I was doing almost all the bus driving. I'd drive all… You know, at that time, we were regional Southern Ohio. I would drive four or five hours a night, sleep till noon. You know, do the same thing until we got back home. I mean, I missed a lot of Fridays in school.
Mark: But on the harmonies, on the production and the… Everybody leans on you, right?
Ben: They do. They do.
You know, my sisters are very, very strong opinionated. You know, we… Typically for Isaacs, we usually fight it out like--
Andrew: Like siblings?
Ben: Yeah, for sure. There'll be suggestions. You know, we all have an opinion. And, you know, we had to go to counseling, Mark, to find out that we all have the same goal in mind. We all have just different ways of getting there.
Mark: Oh, what a great thought.
Ben: So that has been...
Mark: And what is that goal? What is that main goal for y'all?
Ben: I mean… You know, to, I feel like it's to make the best music possible. Obviously, you know, we sing Christian music. We're never going to get wealthy. We're never going to get rich doing it. So how do we change people's lives in what we do? You know, how do we offer what we've been through, talking about control issues, what we've been through to make someone else know that somebody else has been there?
You know, if you look through the Isaacs of the last 10 years, we've been very vocal about our problems. You know, whether it be Becky's illness, Sonya losing a baby, mom's cancer, mom's health with her back, you know, my family member's addiction issues. And I mean, it's just, you've got to share.
You know, I love hearing a pastor preach, a preacher preach, when I know what they've been through because grace means more to me from them than it does somebody who's never done anything wrong, in my opinion.
Andrew: You know, I'm curious about when, you've talked before about one of your family member's, you know, intense struggle with addiction. As a control freak, or as someone who likes things to work out in a certain order, how has walking alongside with that family member, on their journey to sobriety, how has that impacted you, influenced you?
Ben: Oh boy. It taught me my biggest lesson in life. You know, I'll just be honest, you know? I mean, that's the way I am. I'm 49-years-old. And up until my family started dealing with addiction, stuff that was out of my control, I never went through anything personally that I needed God for. I know he saved me. I had no problem. And I know that I love God and I know that God loves me. I have no problem with trusting God with my past or my future heaven, but I had issues with Ben being in control right now.
Until someone that you love with all of your heart doesn't care enough about themselves or what they're going through that it just, you go, "Okay, God, if I could just fight this battle for them, I know I'm strong enough to do it." So that's when, my first time in my life I had to really go, "Okay, God, I trust you now because I need you right now." You know, it wasn't about me getting saved or making it to heaven. I wasn't worried about that.
Mark: Getting through the day.
Ben: It's getting through the day.
Andrew: Yeah. I've heard you talk about too, how walking that journey alongside them, that that taught you who Jesus really is. What do you mean by that? How so?
Ben: Well, you know, I've, you know, we've… Again, we've sang Christian songs about peace and love and "Through It All" and all these songs and it just goes right back to me saying, I never went through anything that I just I didn't have control over. And when I say that it took me really just learning to pray, "Okay God, I give it to you and I trust you with it," and letting go. God will meet you at any obstacle you have. But when he meets you, you gotta learn to let go of it.
My pastor always said, you know, in the battle with Christ, when it's you and God, there's only one sword. If you have it, he can't.
Mark: That's brilliant.
Ben: So, you know, I mean, it's just like when, if you learn to give your weapon away and let him fight the battles, you'll have more peace.
Andrew: How did you experience that? Like how, do you remember--
Mark: Let him be daddy and you be the kid.
Ben: That's it.
Mark: Don't you think that's it?
Ben: For sure. For sure.
Mark: Yeah. "Daddy, you take this," and then you can go play in the house. Your dad has got it covered.
Ben: Yeah. That's hard for somebody like me though.
Andrew: Yeah. And it doesn't always feel that way, does it? It doesn't always feel like I can just relax. And I mean, what does that look like practically? What did that look like practically for you? Do you remember? Was there one thing they were like, this is what letting go means, you know?
Ben: Oh yeah. Having to leave again to go on the bus when they're struggling. When the last thing that I wanted to do was be standing on stage singing about how good God is when I'm dying inside. Because of, you know...
I mean, again, it goes back to control issues because I thought if I was there, I could control it. But it doesn't matter. I learned that, you know, you can't make them start and you can't make them stop. It's got it… Once they have their desire to want to be whole, then it's their battle. And you can walk beside them at that point. When somebody changes their mind and says--
Mark: Let me ask you this. What would you tell Ben Isaacs at the beginning of that journey? What would you tell him that you know now that you wish you had known at the very beginning of this journey?
Ben: I would have, I would say, "Ben, you really need to learn to give it to God because he'll handle it way better than you will." Emotions just...
You know, I mean, there's a heart of it that, there's a part of it, I should say, that's not easy. Because I had to make some decisions in learning to give it to God, to learn to isolate myself from the problem. And sometimes that meant the person. That's not easy when someone you love and you've been with, or whatever it is, that you care so much that because you're with them, it feels like that you've got, okay…
My counselor, again, I thank God for good Christian counselor, said, "Ben, you gotta learn your boundaries. And you've got to stick with them." Sometimes it's hard. And it is. It is hard. But I would say to myself, "Ben, you should trust God more because he does really have it."
Mark: Are you through it or are you still in the middle of it?
Ben: No. Well, I mean, July the 28th of this year will be five years of sobriety.
Mark: Praise the Lord.
Ben: So it's been the most incredible journey of growth that I've been a part of. The trust. All the things that go, you know, I mean… And I mean, they were telling me, you know, the whole time, "Do you think I choose to be this way?" I was like, "Well, no." I really don't feel like you choose to be that way, but I feel like once you've had a dry spell, you do choose your next vice, whatever that is.
Andrew: Like the next first drink or the next whatever.
Ben: And it's just one triggers months of issues until they decide, oh my gosh, I can't do this again. And then I'm just sitting on the side going, you know, it's so hard.
Andrew: Well, it is the choice between whatever it is that we're addicted to and the people that we love. There is a very definitive choice, or the life that we want to live.
If you could boil it down, and I don't know if you can, to one thing that you've talked so much about how you've changed. I think that's a really cool perspective because a lot of people, you're not telling someone else's story and that you're telling your story through this. What is one thing that you feel like has changed about Ben? How is Ben different from then, from before?
Ben: I used to think, growing up, I grew up in a really strict, strict Pentecostal family. You know, we didn't even have a TV till I was 14-years-old. That's why we're all musicians. I used to think that when there was a troubled family member, there was trouble in the family. It's not true. You know, we all have free will, we all can make those choices.
I have learned to be, my heart goes out to people that are battling addiction and the family members that go around it. There is… You know, again, like my family member said, they don't choose it. Sometimes it's a result of something that they've been through. My grandfather died an alcoholic because of what he went through with World War II. That's just the only way he knew to cope.
The whole world of addiction, you know, we all have something that we kind of hide. I think… I feel like the people that have the AA communities and the, what's the Christian version? My mind is completely, I just got off the bus--
Andrew: Like Celebrate Recovery.
Ben: Celebrate Recovery. Yeah, forgive me. You know, the reality is, when they go to those places, everybody knows what their issue is, so they don't have to hide it anymore. So they automatically have this freedom that says, you know, "I am this person. I was this person. Because of you guys in this community, we have strength with each other to get out of it."
You know, I tell my family member all the time, I said, "You have the coolest friends because you guys know each other. You guys can call each other out on stuff that..." And I've just learned so much about helping and just watching and seeing what a good foundation, watching and trusting the Lord, community does for a relationship.
Mark: That's what church should be.
Ben: Exactly. I wish, I've said this so many times. And as I've watched it over the last five years, just because my family member's celebrated five years sobriety, there was about three years where it was like everywhere. I wish AA, or I wish church was like an AA meeting. I've seen it so much because again, we all go in, we know why we're there. We're all sinners saved by grace.
Andrew: We don't have to hide.
Ben: We don't have to hide behind our mask. It's up to you whether you want to hide behind a lie or not, but it's just like you go into it and you're like, "Okay, this is what happened to me this week. This is what almost caused me to start drinking." You know, it's just so cool. So cool.
Andrew: There's a prayer that I heard this morning that I think is used a lot in Catholic liturgy. It's the prayer of Saint Therese. And it made me think of this conversation we were going to have. And as someone who's a fellow control freak and who someone's been along the road of recovery from addiction,
"Let nothing disturb you, nothing distress you. While all things fade away, God is unchanging. So be patient for with God in your heart, nothing is lacking. God is enough."
And when I think about what you're talking about and elements of surrendering and allowing people to walk their roads and you discovering a new road, there's a lot of truly believing in that surrender that God is enough.
Ben: Amen. It's the truth.
Mark: Well, that's why God's put off so long calling Bill home. Because, you know, when Bill gets there, he's going to say, "We need to move that throne just a little bit. And we you need some chairs and those, angels, angels, here, here. Put Vestal over here." Don't you know?
Ben: "Have you ever had a Gaither DVD? Do you not know what I can do?"
Mark: Yeah, really? Oh my Lord.
Andrew: Thank you, Ben.
Mark: I love you, buddy.
Ben: Love you guys. Thank you.
The Isaacs performing “He Never Failed Me”
I've been walking through the valley so troubled
And I prayed Lord please make a way
Then He reached me just before I stumbled
And He gave me strength to face another day
I raise my hands to heaven
Lord you gently wiped my tears away
There has never been a time when you failed me
Lord I thank you for touching me today
Dear Lord I thank you because you're my consolation
When my friends and my loved ones let me down
You're the only one that I can turn to
And when I need you Lord you're always around
Oh I raise my hands to heaven
Lord you gently wiped my tears away
There has never been a time when you failed me
Lord I thank you for touching me today
There has never been a time when you failed me
Lord I thank you for touching me today
Dear Lord I thank you for touching me today
The Abide Bible Sponsorship Message
Mark: The Bible is the foundation of our theology. We would not know of Jesus if it weren't for the Bible. We wouldn't know about grace. We wouldn't know about how God cares for us. And there is a new Bible out called the Abide Bible. You know how Jesus said, if you abide in me as I abide in my father, and we abide in each other, and it's just a continual feed off each other. And what I like about this Bible is it's asking us to go deeper.
Andrew: Yeah, it's taking an approach to the Bible from being just simply informational to really being invitational. So there's a lot of prompts in this Bible to journal alongside Scriptures. It gives you opportunity to pray certain Scriptures at different seasons of your life, to meditate on the Scripture. There's beautiful artwork in here that's really cool cause it's not just like some kind of Sunday school artwork. They're using like da Vinci and beautiful pieces of classic art to really just get us to imagine, to be able to use all of our senses as we enter into Scripture, so that we really step into the story of Scripture, not just see it as words on a page but as part of a living, breathing active part of our lives. And you know what? I asked my brother one time, who's a pastor, I said, "Why is the Bible so important?" And he said exactly what you said a second ago, because it is the greatest written revelation of who God is. And so it gives us the opportunity to know God but also to be a part of God's story. That's the Abide Bible.
Mark: So go to abidebible.com to get your copy today.
Andrew: I don't think we have to, you know, like I remember going up and some people saying, especially as a teenager in Texas and church, "Well, if I hadn't done that, I wouldn't have the testimony I have now." I don't think that's what you have to do. I don't think you have to set out on a course of destruction to then have a story of redemption, right?
Jimmy: No.
Andrew: But you received what I would call the benefit and the gift of still being in a relationship with your father. You could have also, that could have been the end of your father's life. And that would've been a big question mark.
Jimmy: I hear so many people come up. I tell that story quite a bit. So many people come up and say, with tears in their eyes and say, "That didn't happen with my daddy. He didn't make that decision." And I don't really, sometimes I don't know what to say to them except that I believe in my heart that Christ died for everybody. He died for everybody. He died for the lowest scum of this earth. Whether you want to like it or not, he did.
And so I believe, we don't know what that person faced in the last five seconds of their life. We don't know what kind of decision they made, but God can save someone that just, that believes and accepts him in spite of their faults. He can save that person. I believe that with all my heart.
Andrew: It's not our actions or activity that confirm, well, our relationship with God is not built based on what we do, right?
Jimmy: Right.
Andrew: So no matter how--
Jimmy: No, we can't work our way to heaven.
Andrew: Right. I think our actions can express what we believe, can over time, can express to others, show to others, confirm our relationship with God. But yeah, I don't think you can ever get too destitute to sever a relationship with God.
“I don’t think you can ever get too destitute to sever a relationship with God.”
Jimmy: Yeah, I think so too because it is the outcome of what we do and our choices. We have consequences. And those consequences could have been totally different for us if daddy hadn't made that right decision. But it doesn't matter whether he made that decision 20 years before he passed away or whether he made that decision five seconds before he passed away. If he's going to heaven, he's going to heaven. I mean, he believes and he accepts Christ in his heart. So it's the outcome on this earth that changes things. That people don't understand that...
I try to explain it to people that I know, even my own children, that because we all make bad choices, that we go with sometimes blinders on like when somebody says, "Well, you need..." I did it with my family. My mama tried to tell me something and I just go right on down that path. "Oh mom, you know, this is..." You know what?
Andrew: "I'm good."
Jimmy: Yeah. And, but then I realized as time went on, everything she was saying was going to make a better life for me, you know? Yeah, I made some wrong choices. Even the wrong choices I made, God has somehow made it okay. Like once you ask for forgiveness and you want God to change your life, he comes in and he starts changing things. He doesn't make everything like perfect right off the bat, those consequences that you made, those choices have consequences that will carry on for the rest of your life. But with those, he can change the outcome of those consequences, if you know what I mean.
Andrew: Yeah, you can receive the consequence and not be shaped by it forever.
Jimmy: Right.
Andrew: I mean, that's our doing. I think that's my doing, that's my shame. That's my worry, just speaking to me. If I'm going to let some, a bad decision and its consequences define who I am and what my future looks like, right?
Jimmy: No, you can't do that. I run into so many people today that say, "Well, you know, my momma did this to me. My daddy did this to me." Well, there are a lot of abusive situations, but you don't have to let that define you. A husband or wife abusing you, you don't have to let that define you. Your relationship when you accept Christ as your Savior, that is probably the most valuable thing. Well, I know it is the most valuable thing you can do in life. No matter how much money you have, it doesn't matter how much money you have. If you don't have Christ and to have a purpose in your life, you're the poorest man on earth.
Andrew: Well, you think that relationship with God is, that is the definition or that defines our purpose in life?
Jimmy: Once you accept Christ and then you open yourself up spiritually to say, "Hey, now what's my job? What do you want me to do?" And really mean that cause it ain't about you anymore. The biggest lesson in life I learned is, when I learned it wasn't, life ain't all about me. And if you don't believe he'll change your life, you just ask him. Because if you really believe that he can do it, sit back and watch things happen. There'll be things out of your control that you don't, you just go, what in the world?
You know, after I made that decision in 1993 going through a divorce and my dad is having cancer and--
Andrew: That's all happened right in the same little pocket of time, right?
Jimmy: Yeah. All that happened right in the same. Cause I was kind of at a bottom point in my life just where I'd been blaming everybody else for my problems. You know? And then once I was in a hotel room in Little Rock, Arkansas, lonely, lonely time of my life. It's around May of 1993. Found my way into a hotel room. It's a cloudy, gloomy day just, actually it was in the morning, about 2 in the morning. And they told me my dad had cancer and he was dying. He wasn't going to be living much longer. I had just gotten separated from a marriage and everything and just felt hopeless.
And I remember sitting on the side of the bed in that hotel room just thinking, man, I have never been so alone in my life. And I thought to myself, I said, "You know, if I didn't know there was a God, I would understand how people would take their life that didn't know, that didn't have that hope." But I looked over and I turn, I had turned the light on and it was a Gideon Bible lying on the nightstand. And it was open, of all things. I'm like, what is it? And I just took it that God was trying to tell me something. These things went all, these alarms, you know, this is my Word, this is… And I'm trying, I want to tell you something. And so I literally ran over and I grabbed that Bible.
It was, and I will never forget, it was Jeremiah 5:25. It said, "Your sins and your iniquities have kept good things from you." And I literally sat there with chills on me. And I felt like Jesus was sitting right next to me. I've only had that feeling one other time in my life, where it felt like… I was in a hotel room. there was the most depressing thing you could ever imagine, and all of a sudden, I felt like I was siting in the middle of a vast eternity and there was nothing, there was just something that was holding me up that I couldn't even explain. It was a feeling.
And not saying that everything had gotten better from that point, just perfect. It wasn't. My dad passed away, the divorce. And so many things happened, but I had accepted Christ into my heart and he began to change things and get me ready for whatever it was I was going to be facing down the road for my career, for my family, for everything. He's been getting me ready ever since of that point.
Andrew: Yeah, that's interesting cause you talk about that being such a change, a moment of change, for you personally. And yet I think it's good for people to hear, for me to hear, that yes and the next step wasn't that, okay, I had this experience with Jesus. This very real benchmark experience with Jesus in my life and then dad was healed from cancer and then my marriage survived. No, but your discovery of beauty within the brokenness was that relationship with Jesus. You know what I mean?
I think because there's a fairy tale that has been wound around a relationship with God, et cetera, that has to do with me. So like my relationship with God is good or God is good if A, B, C, and D happens rather than a true relationship with someone, with God, which is just a foundational thing. It's a peace. It's a presence. It's an undercurrent that while life is doing this, divorce, dad died, whatever that is for whoever you are, this is a steady presence and the most true thing we could ever experience, you know what… I mean, that's kind of mystical, but the most true thing of experience is relationship with God.
Jimmy: It is. And I'll tell you the other experience I had when I felt that same presence was my son Jimmy was born with spina bifida. He's my first born son of seven.
Andrew: You took after your parents.
Jimmy: He'd been through a lot.
Yeah, following my dad, went broke making Fortunes.
But he'd been through a lot in his life, and they didn't think he'd make it two hours. He had the worst case of spina bifida that was ever in UVA, University of Virginia. But the good news is, through a lot of prayer and everything, now he's 47-years-old but he's been through, you know, I want to say to hell and back. He's been there.
Andrew: Yeah, it's been a journey.
Jimmy: In so many ways. But a couple of years ago… A couple of years ago, we were on vacation in Folly Beach, South Carolina. And Jimmy was there with the rest of the family were there and he got really, really sick and we couldn't get him to the hospital back to Virginia. So we had to take him to the emergency room in Charleston. And he went in there and I mean, he was so sick. I mean, he had like three major, major infections in his body. And he actually went into kind of, just was out for about three days, like a coma type thing. And they didn't know if he was going to come back or not.
I had to leave at that time and go on the road. I had to go back out. And so I had my other son, his brother, stay with him in South Carolina. So he kept keeping me posted on what was going on. I didn't want to leave because you know how hard it is, but I've had to do it many times in his life and hardest thing I've ever had to do really.
So I get a call. It's like on Sunday night, and Chris, my son, said, "Dad, it's not good." He's not, he hadn't been coherent for a couple of days now, not eating, he's not doing anything. And they're just debating on what to do, whether just to let him go or whatever." And the reality of all of it hit me so hard. I hung up with him and I hit my knees like I've never hit my knees before. I mean, I prayed til, I cried and I prayed and I prayed and I cried and I prayed, and I stood up after I finished praying and I walked over to the Bible and literally opened it, opened it up. And my eyes fell on these words written in read, "I will come heal him."
I saw that and I went, and it was like, he was speaking to me saying, don't doubt this.
Andrew: And you believe. I mean, that was--
Jimmy: I believed it. I said, and I got right on the phone and I called my son. I said, "Son..." I said, "God's going to heal him." I told him what happened. I said, "I know he's going to heal him." And it was like God spoke to me because I hadn't rested. And I was really, really at my wit's end. And God spoke to me and said, "Lay down and rest. I'm going to give you a good night's rest. And when you get up in the morning, I am going to heal him. Don't doubt it."
I just kept saying that over. But then there was something in the back of my mind still saying, the human side of me was saying, I don't know, you know.
Andrew: Well, you think leaving it open because the kind of disappointment or grief that went ensue of it wasn't to be.
Jimmy: You're right. Right. But I said, I did say… I said, "God, even if you don't, I accept." I told him that.
And phone rang up that next morning and my son Chris says, "Jimmy, daddy, you're not going to believe this." I said, "What? Tell me. Yeah, I'm going to believe." He said, "He's up saying, 'I'm well and I'm hungry and I want something to eat.'"
Andrew: This is the next morning?
Jimmy: He had two sweet potatoes is what he wanted and a glass of orange juice is what he wanted. And from that moment on, he's been getting better and better every day.
Andrew: It seems like you take things on faith in that regard. Like you, that Bible was open. You read that and you have an element within you that is willing to believe. And there's a beauty to that. It seems a little childlike faith to me.
Jimmy: Well, there was any… He says, come on to me as a little child. And that's the only way I know how because I'm very, I'm not a very complicated person. I just… And I'm not, I don't consider myself a real smart person in a way. But I do feel like I have a openness of my spirit to Christ that is childlike. But I'm willing to accept the fact that, you know, if he didn't heal my child.
Andrew: That doesn't change.
Jimmy: That doesn't change the fact that I don't question God. I don't question why he did heal him. I don't question why he didn't heal my dad of cancer. It would be such a, I don't know how to… I don't know if I… A disgrace for me to ever turn my back on him after what he's done for me in my life. And I look at it and go, man, some of the things that he's brought me through despite myself and with my child Jimmy and with my whole family.
Even right today, the prayers that he's answered. And I get, like I said, four brothers and four sisters. And we're all, they're all getting to that age where things are starting to happen. But even through the hardships, we knew that our anchor was in a higher power. It had to be with Christ, not to run from him but run to him. And so that's been the whole key.
But when I think about my brother and sisters, even with all the things, we're all of the same agreeance that if it all ended right now, if I was to, something happen to me right now, I'm so thankful. I'm very thankful and happy that my life, I've had the life I've had. And mainly that I made the decision to follow Christ. That's the biggest decision I ever made.
Andrew: I think your sense of gratitude is very tangible. I think even from the time you walked in the room and this is the first time we've ever met in person, and I think gratitude, I'm learning as I'm getting a little older. I'm learning that gratitude truly is I think part of what opens up those spiritual eyes, you know? So I love hearing that.
I think culturally speaking, no matter, not just in America but all over the world, when you see communities that exercise gratefulness, you sense a different, I sense a different level of welcome, a different level of profound spirituality a lot of times. Like a trust and faith in God that is very elementary and basic and yet extremely profound in its childlikeness, if you will, and all that. So...
Jimmy: I think we can get, it can get too complicated for people, you know? Cause I hear people talk about it all like, you know, you hear they're talking about this story in the Bible and this story in the Bible and they don't understand. And there are a lot of things in the Bible that you look at and go, well, I don't know. You know, because there is a lot--
Andrew: They're not that great?
Jimmy: Yeah. And I have used the Bible for me, and I know some people might frown on this, but I literally use it as God's Word. And sometimes I may open it up and look at it and read something, man, I don't understand that at all. You know? When I'm reading it. But then there are times when there'll be something in my life going on that I'll just, I'll be reading it and going, wow God. It's just like he just reached out and just said, "This is what I want to tell you right now." Even though it may be a story about something totally different, "this is what I want you to hear right now."
And you know when it's God speaking to you. It's like you know when it's the devil speaking to you. You know that. You have that, we all are born with that instinct in us where, you know, we had that choice, is this God or is this the devil?
Andrew: Every time Mark talks to me I've… Sensed that.
Well, I want to express for both of us, but for me especially, today like an extreme amount of gratitude for your willingness to be here and just to express your life.
Jimmy: But honest to God, can't figure how I got here. How somebody in this town even knows my name sometimes because of the background where I came from. And I stood on the corner of a lot of these record labels back after the Statlers Brothers retired. And I would go in and get literally the boot. I mean, I don't know how else to say it. Like we don't need you, we don't want you, bye, bye. That's how you felt anyway.
They wasn't that bad, but to me, I took it to heart and I stood on the side of a street corner down here in Nashville and I felt defeated. I felt like… And I felt God, I really heard him speak to me. He said, "From this point on, trust me. Put one foot in front of the other. And if you're standing in front of 10,000 people or if you stand in front of 10 people, exalt me and with a thankful heart and I'll take care of you."
Andrew: Well, wait until the show airs. It'll be 10,000 people a night.
Jimmy: All right. Yes, sir. Love you, brother. Thank you so much for that.
Andrew: Thanks for the burgers. We don't ever get this excuse. I mean, we bought them. Thanks.
Jimmy Fortune singing “I Believe”
When I see the sunrise in the morning
When I feel the wind blow across my face
When I hear the sound of children playing
I know it’s all a part of God’s amazing grace
And I believe there’s a place called heaven
I believe in a place called Calvary
I believe in a man his name is Jesus
And I believe that he gave his life for me
I was there the day my mama went to heaven
I held her hand as she closed her eyes to sleep
I felt the power of ten thousand angels
Take her soul away to be crowned at Jesus’ feet
And I believe there’s a place called heaven
I believe in a place called Calvary
I believe in a man whose name is Jesus
And I believe that he gave his life for me
Oh, I believe that he gave his life for me
Mark: Thank you for watching Dinner Conversations. Don't forget to subscribe, and then ring that bell and get all notifications.
Andrew: And don't forget to like us or dislike us. Don't do that. Leave comments, talk about what's resonating in your life from these conversations, and join us next time for Dinner Conversations with--
Mark: Mark Lowry.
Andrew: And Andrew Greer.
Mark: Turning the light on.
Andrew: One question at a time.
Mark: Dinner Conversations is brought to you by Food for the Hungry, an incredible relief and community development organization, serving those with physical and spiritual needs around the world for 50 years this year.
Andrew: Help us as we help our friends at Food for the Hungry save thousands of lives and Ethiopia today by considering a generous gift.
Mark: A gift that will be matched 22 times.
Andrew: Your one-time gift will make an eternal difference. So visit fh.org/dinner to give now.
Faith Shall Be Sight featuring Ginny Owens and Kelly Minter
Dove Award-winning singer-songwriter Ginny Owens and author-speaker Kelly Minter are women of song and scripture. Plus, they are seminarians! Join us along the streets of New York City as Ginny shares her perspectives of being blind in the Big Apple. Plus Kelly shares how scripture can speak to us in an everyday way.
Dove Award-winning singer-songwriter Ginny Owens and author-speaker Kelly Minter are women of song and scripture. Plus, they are seminarians! Join us along the streets of New York City as Ginny shares her perspectives of being blind in the Big Apple. Plus Kelly shares how scripture can speak to us in an everyday way.
Transcript
Mark: Dinner Conversations is brought to you by Food for the Hungry, an incredible relief and community development organization serving those with physical and spiritual needs around the world for 50 years this year.
Andrew: Help us as we help our friends at Food for the Hungry save thousands of lives in Ethiopia today by considering a generous gift.
Mark: A gift that will be matched 22 times.
Andrew: Your one-time gift will make an eternal difference. So visit fh.org/dinner to give now.
Mark: I am excited about this episode because we got to go to New York City, and we got to interview Ginny Owens. What a delight. Now you've known her for years.
Andrew: I've known Ginny for a long time. She's been a very close friend. She lives in New York City now. She took us to one of her favorite restaurants for this dinner conversation. And of course, she is going to seminary, that's why she moved to New York City.
Ginny has a unique perspective in every way. One of the most unique things about Ginny's perspective is that she doesn't have sight, and hasn't since she was a little child. In fact, she taught us how it might be to be blind walking down the street. She blindfolded us. That's something you gotta see.
Mark: And Kelly Minter is in this conversation. You're going to love meeting her. Andrew had an incredible conversation with Kelly, and just this afternoon, I got to have a conversation with her too. You're going to love Kelly Minter.
Andrew: Yeah, she's a great author, teacher, speaker, Bible studier.
So get ready to walk the streets of New York with us.
Mark: Yeah, and there's one seat left at the table, and it's yours. So let's join the conversation.
Mark: Can you believe we're in New York City? Going to visit our friend Ginny Owens. Yeah. She walks three flights of stairs every day.
Andrew: Are you out of breath?
Mark: I felt my glutes burn.
Ginny: Password please.
Mark: I didn't even know I had glutes.
Andrew: What glutes are left.
Mark: Hi Ginny.
Andrew: Ginny.
Ginny: Hi, guys, how's it going?
Mark: How are you? I didn't realize I had glutes till I climbed your stairs.
Ginny: I know, they're so good for that. They're a great workout.
Andrew: Hey.
Ginny: Hi, how are you, friend? I'm going to take you to such a good place.
Mark: Oh, good.
Ginny: You're going to love it, but you're never going to want to leave New York ever.
Mark: Well, let's go.
Andrew: Let's go.
Mark: Take us to breakfast.
Ginny: Let's go have some food.
Mark: I was 14.
Ginny: Yep.
Mark: I became best friends with a blind girl at camp. She told me what color her eyes were. She picked them out. So we became good friends. And I was going to lead her up at camp, 500 kids there. And it's an old, what is it? Chicken coop that had been turned into...
Ginny: Oh my gosh.
Mark: A sawdust tabernacle thing, okay.
Ginny: Sawdust tabernacle, I love this.
Mark: Trust me. This is Texas, like in ancient Texas.
Ginny: We're going right.
Mark: And so there's all these poles, there's no walls.
Ginny: Yeah.
Mark: There's poles in the ceiling.
Ginny: Yeah.
Mark: I go around the pole. Evidently, I didn't lead her around the pole.
Ginny: Oh no, no.
Mark: Boom, she hit her head on a pole. And then she's sang "He Touched Me" while a knot grew on her head.
Ginny: Oh.
Mark: Well, how do you know-
Andrew: Yeah.
Mark: We can't keep walking?
Ginny: Well, because…
Andrew: We stopped.
Ginny: I can hear the traffic on the left, like there's the parallel traffic stopped.
Andrew: Oh.
Mark: Okay.
Andrew: So like when they go.
Ginny: Yeah. So now we can go.
Andrew: I see. So do you just think contextually the city is easier? Like when you lived in Nashville-
Ginny: Yeah.
Andrew: Especially in Franklin.
Ginny: Yeah.
Andrew: Right, in a suburb.
Ginny: Yeah.
Andrew: And there's sidewalks everywhere, but there's no- Is there no context because there's no traffic?
Ginny: It's not. So Franklin and Nashville, not great walking places because there's no context. It's not set up like a grid. Even where there are sidewalks, they don't necessarily make sense. And the street crossings are usually like five or six way stops. They're always kind of odd, especially in downtown Nashville.
Andrew: Instead of like perpendicular and parallel.
Ginny: Yeah, exactly. So it is a lot easier to get around here.
Mark: And you've lived in New York how long?
Ginny: Almost two years.
Mark: Two years.
Andrew: Check out here.
Ginny: Okay.
Andrew: Now how would you know about that big truck right there?
Ginny: I would just hear it.
Andrew: Okay.
Ginny: Like hear that it's taking up space.
Andrew: Oh, hear that it's taking up space.
Ginny: Yeah.
Andrew: So is that how you know how weighty I am?
Ginny: Yes. How much space do you take up.
Mark: How much you think I weigh?
Andrew: Yeah, yeah. He's on the your right.
Ginny: No, we're not playing that game.
Andrew: Come on, feel his elbow.
Ginny: You weigh 150 pounds.
Mark: Oh, aren't you precious, which side?
Do you ever get curious about what people look like?
Ginny: Oh yeah, totally. But not as curious, like I don't think about it too much just because, I don't know, it doesn't matter I guess.
Mark: Yeah.
Ginny: At the end of the day. But I am always curious, especially when I'm getting to know someone or even like, I love to watch like the Grammys and stuff with other people.
Mark: Right.
Ginny: Because...
Mark: They can describe.
Ginny: Yeah. Cause I'm like, what does she look like?
Mark: All right, here we are, y'all.
Andrew: I'm going to try to get us a round table.
Ginny: Okay.
Andrew: So Ginny, come on and I'll help you up.
Mark: Don't lead her into a door.
Andrew: Sorry, sorry. Step up.
Mark: After all that.
Andrew: Sorry.
Mark: Thank you for opening your world to us.
Ginny: Oh, thanks for coming to hang out in my world.
Mark: What are you studying and where?
Ginny: I am getting a master of biblical studies, right?
Mark: Is that at New York University or it's somewhere else?
Ginny: No, it's seminary. So I am in my third- No, I did three semesters of Greek. I'm in my second of Hebrew, and it's crazy times.
Mark: Can you read Greek in braille?
Ginny: I can, and Hebrew.
Mark: You're kidding me.
Ginny: No.
Mark: What is that like?
Andrew: Is it any different?
Ginny: It's pretty cool. Well, the weird thing is there's only six dots possible in braille.
Mark: Okay.
Ginny: So you reuse a lot of those combos for like Greek and Hebrew. So what's really confusing is when you're trying to read Hebrew and you're like, oh wait, this symbol meant something different in Greek, and now it means something different in Hebrew.
Andrew: Braille is a modern invention, right?
Ginny: Maybe 1800s.
Andrew: 1800s. Yeah.
Ginny: Yeah.
Andrew: So, but I mean, there was not a system like that when originally- Like the Dead Sea Scrolls aren't in braille.
Ginny: Right.
Mark: I wonder who came up with braille?
Ginny: Well, Louis Braille was sort...
Mark: There you go.
Ginny: It's named after him.
Andrew: Here's your cup of tea.
Ginny: Thank you.
Mark: So what is the hardest part of living in New York City for a blind person?
Andrew: Yeah, the biggest obstacle.
Mark: Biggest obstacle.
Ginny: I think the biggest obstacle.
Andrew: Thank you, Denisa.
Ginny: Yes. Thank you very much.
Mark: Thank you.
Ginny: And maybe this is the biggest obstacle everywhere, but getting people to move from sort of pity slash compassion to seeing you as a person that they respect and would want to be friends with.
Andrew: Oh, really in the city?
Ginny: Yeah, I think sometimes, at least in the city, there is sort of more of a compassion, but there is, you know, when you're walking down the street, people are always jumping out of your way. You know, you kind of think, I'm not going to eat you I just think that people don't always know what to do with someone who is different, you know, who has a disability, and here especially people live very busy lives, and so they kind of think, oh gosh, if I engage with her, maybe she's going to call me and ask for help.
Mark: Oh.
Andrew: Take up too much of their time.
Ginny: Yeah, totally.
Andrew: You know, culturally, like, even though you're saying like about people being fearful of getting invested in your life because it might require more investment from them than they're used to, right. I think that's even culturally a problem. Like when we worry about people. Like if I meet someone that I like just as a friend or whatever, I start to think, do I have time?
Ginny: Right.
Andrew: I don't want to give my number maybe, but I mean, that sounds real selfish, but you worry that it might cost you.
Mark: Because friends, friendships take time.
Ginny: They do.
Andrew: Yes.
Mark: And you cannot have a deep friendship without taking time.
Ginny: Right.
Andrew: Right.
Ginny: And the truth is the only reason I know that people think that is because I think that, and like people don't know like because when I meet someone and they chatter on and on, I'm like, oh gosh, I can't.
You just realize like friendship is what life is made of, like that's the real stuff of life.
“Friendship is what life is made of.”
Mark: So what is a typical day like for you when you're home?
Ginny: Oh gosh. Right now it's very uninteresting.
Mark: Is it?
Ginny: Well, so I get up pretty early, usually 5:30 or 6. I have to have my sort of time with Jesus in the morning. Otherwise, everything just falls apart.
Mark: Yeah.
Ginny: So I think especially all the studying and stuff, I just feel like I need that time to read and pray and think.
So I have that first, and then I usually- Oh no, I have coffee first.
Mark: Right.
Ginny: Coffee comes before even Jesus.
Mark: It comes even before Jesus.
Ginny: Yeah. I think maybe since...
Mark: He's probably having a cup with you.
Ginny: Yeah.
Mark: Tell me about the book. Now, you've already written how many books?
Ginny: Well, just one with this guy over here.
Andrew: She's written a lot of them.
Mark: You've written one book with Andrew, and then what's this one?
Andrew: And we survived.
Ginny: We did survive. We're still friends.
Mark: He's so good at it.
Ginny: He's really good at it.
Mark: Well, it's just this incessant regurgitation of unnecessary verbiage. It just flows.
Ginny: Yes, I like that. I don't if that's true, but I like the way it felt.
Mark: I told that to Chonda Pierce, one time when she was on my bus early on. I said, "This incessant regurgitation of unnecessary verbiage is killing me." And she put that in her book.
Ginny: Oh my gosh.
Mark: Okay, so...
Ginny: That's amazing.
Mark: Tell me about the book.
Ginny: So it's a lot of personal testimony. Every chapter is sort of testimony and study. So every chapter is sort of an example of something I've learned about singing in life's difficult situations or singing in the dark as it were. And then there's a story of someone from the Bible who, you know, I'm calling songs, you know, something maybe that they declared to God.
Andrew: Okay
Ginny: So the first one is about Leah and how, you know, she had such a longing like to be loved by her husband, but she also found herself in unchangeable circumstances. Like, you know, her day after day, year after year, her husband did not love her. And so in a sense, I can relate in like, you know, I day after day cannot see, and that is not changing.
So then just kind of talking about what Leah finally learned and how she finally learned to have peace with God. And then kind of talking about some of the things that I've learned from Leah.
Mark: This book could open up a whole new area for you, but you are so...
Andrew: He didn't know you taught.
Mark: Of course, I knew you taught, but I'm saying you're brilliant the way you articulate. But my question is really for other single women like you, blind, sighted, or whatever. What would you tell them? To get up and live your life and quit waiting on a man?
Andrew: Is that what you would tell them?
Ginny: You know what is so funny? This weekend I've had two different conversations with friends who got married later in life because that's one thing that happens a lot in New York. You definitely get married later, and it's happening all over the country now. But both of them said to me, "I wish I would have enjoyed my time as a single person," because you think you're waiting for the end all and you're not. Like when you get married-
Andrew: It's just another season.
Ginny: It's a different season, and then you miss that time you had alone to do all the different things.
Mark: And that season may never happen.
Ginny: Right.
Andrew: The single season?
Mark: The married season.
Andrew: Right. So why completely bide your time?
You know, I was reading this article of a man who wrote a book about all the contributions the single population, which is a decent size. I mean, it's not like everyone in the world is married, but he was talking about specifically in America, the single population. How, if we did not have some single population-
Ginny: Right.
Andrew: That society would crumble. Because we don't have to be at home around the table with our kids at 7 every night.
Ginny: Right.
Andrew: We might be with some elderly people who need assistance.
Mark: Right.
Andrew: Or we might be dreaming of new innovative ideas that take a lot more time than a family...
Mark: Like somebody's got to run the hospital.
Andrew: Right.
Ginny: Right.
Andrew: And so the interviewer said, "Now are you single?" He was in his maybe early fifties. He said, "I'm not anymore, but I was. I've been married for about five years, but I was for a very long time." And he said, "And I quite miss it."
Mark: Do you think it would be hard now for either one of you? And let me just say myself.
Andrew: Yeah, we're all single.
Mark: I'm much older than either one of you, and it ain't never gonna happen. Because I have thoroughly loved being single. I've never had any desire to get married. The thought of it makes me feel like I'm going to break out in sweat.
Ginny: I like that.
Andrew: So that's a little different than other people.
Mark: For me it's like, I evidently have a very good gift of just, I don't miss it. Miss it, I've never had it. I don't long for it.
Ginny: Yeah, you don't long for that, yeah.
Mark: I've surrounded myself with friends, and I think that's what single people need to do.
Ginny: Right.
Mark: Get good, good, good friends you can grow old with.
Have you had that longing?
“Get good, good, good friends you can grow old with.”
Ginny: I definitely have. I feel like in this season in life, I sort of am comfortable and content in the idea that maybe I won't ever get married and that's okay. But I also think I'm more comfortable with myself than ever before. So I also go, well, if I ever get married, that would also be super great. However, there are things that I would need to change. You know, there are things I would need to give up. There are things that would need to be different.
Andrew: Sure, evolve.
Ginny: Right, and so I think I have that realization now. So I know it wouldn't be like exchanging the dark life for just this life of joy.
Andrew: Complete light and joy and love.
The Faithful Project
Mark: Women have been very important in my journey to know Jesus. First of all my mother, who would tuck me into bed at night, tell me God's gonna use me. My grandmothers were so important to me. And then some of the women in our church, like Delores Sims. You've never heard of her, but she would always woo me to Jesus. And did you know that women were the first ones that learned that Jesus had risen from the dead? And then they went back, told the men, the men didn't believe it until they saw him for themselves. But women have been very important in the message of the Gospel and this new project called Faithful, which is a CD and book.
Andrew: So many of our good friends and people that you have read their literature or you've heard their music, people like Amy Grant and Kelly Minter and Jenny Owens, Sandra McCracken, Sally Lloyd Jones, Trillia Newbell, there's so many wonderful authors and artists, and here's the cool part. They all got together to write about the women of the Bible and then write songs about how women are a part of continuing to share the story of the gospel all throughout history into today, but the artists and the authors combined efforts. So artists, musicians, were writing some of the chapters and authors were helping write some of the music, which I think it's just this shared experience to say that the telling and sharing of the Gospel, the story of God, is written in each of our lives to share and tell to others just like you.
When I think about who first shared the real nuts and bolts of the Gospel, it was women. And so this Faithful Project celebrates that, highlights that, and offers an opportunity, not just for women but also for men, to be invited into that conversation as well. To learn more about the book and the music project called Faithful, go to faithfulproject.com.
Andrew: Okay. Well, Kelly, well, thank you for sitting down with us today, and thank you for being a part of… I mean we've never had you on Dinner Conversations.
Kelly: What is that about?
Andrew: I don't know.
Kelly: I am a dinner conversation. I love cooking.
Andrew: I know.
Kelly: And being in the kitchen and all of it. How has this not happened? I don't know.
Andrew: It's so true. And every one of your Bible studies, that's one of the first things I remember is one of my cousins here in town, she loves your studies. And she was like, and look at this like, like black bean sauce or something, you know. She was going through all of that.
Kelly: Got to have the recipes in the study because that's when people like are together, right?
Andrew: Yes, it is true. That's when communion is happening. But what I'm curious about is people who don't necessarily have the space in their life, for whatever reason, maybe to go to seminary or to get some kind formal biblical education. How is it that we as believers, as disciples of Jesus, can incorporate a full bodied understanding of scripture, like kind of in layman's terms, if we're not able to have a concerted season of time where we're in study of scripture on an academic level?
Kelly: Right.
Andrew: How do we do that? How do we involve scripture in our lives?
Kelly: Well, I think the first thing to think about is why do we want to do that? Because I mean, there's a million things that I would like to do, right? I'd like to take a cooking class or I'd like to take Portuguese lessons or, you know, but we're limited with the amount of time that we have in our day.
And so for me, the study of God's Word is, it colors everything, like it's so direct- It's so directing. Like even today, like having to deal with kind of a difficult situation. And like now, my brain, I'm going to be honest, my brain was going a lot of directions, but I'm like-
I was in John, I think it was 13, this morning where Jesus washes the feet of the disciples, and he just becomes a servant. And it's a simple little shift, but this morning it was like, the Lord was like, okay, when you go in there, you're going to serve. Even though I kind of wanted to go into a certain situation, like, okay, here's how it's going to be, you know?
Andrew: Yeah.
Kelly: And so it was this shift because in scripture they're always doing that. It's always changing us. It's moving up against us because it's God's Word. And it's inspired by the Holy Spirit. So it changes everything.
So I think the why is we need it for every single thing that we do. It's applicable for everything. And then yeah, not everybody's going to be in seminary, not everybody's going to get a formal education, but we live in a place where there are endless resources. So whether it's grabbing a Bible study that someone's written that has homework laid out, like, okay, I'm going to study this book of the Bible, or I'm going to study this theme through this Bible study that's going to trace me through scripture or I'm going to join a Bible study, or I'm going to add in an online class, there's so many ways that we can get into the Bible study.
I think the key is doing it. And then maybe even finding some people that are going to do it with you because that always helps, right? When you're..
Andrew: Sure. It's just like exercise, right?
Kelly: Exercising. I was going to go for dieting, yeah. Like who's going to not have sugar with me for the next 30 days or whatever, yeah.
So I think having a framework, and that's the thing too in our culture right now, everybody's pretty isolated, right?
Andrew: Yeah.
Kelly: And so this is an opportunity for us to go together and do this together.
Andrew: You started in town here in Nashville as a songwriter, as an artist, and you have transitioned over the past 14, 15 years to become, you know, your platform really became much wider as you began to write Bible studies, become an author, teach, and speak. Were you ever intimidated? Like expressing yourself in a song, there's a lot more fluidity in that when you're being thoughtful about your theology or whatever then now authoring books about scripture and teaching scripture. Was that intimidating, that kind of higher calling?
Kelly: Yeah, I think, oh yeah. I think so. And that's part of the reason why I am in seminary because I do think that we need to take the Word of God so seriously. And so I have really wanted to make sure that I'm not wading into waters that I shouldn't be wading into, you know, but I think too, you know, when the Lord, he calls you into something different, I mean, honestly singing was intimidating. And yet even though, you know, you had that three-minute song and the lyrics, you know you're not going to stray from the lyrics, right? So once you feel settled on them, there they are. You're not going to make those up unless you forget the words, which I've done many times.
But that I always felt a little like kind of off my game. But I think it was because the Lord was preparing me for something different, but it was a process. And I think I have just continually wanted to learn. And I think that that also is where accountability comes in, where you've got people in your life that are going to look at what you're saying, look at what you're writing, that are with you and you're hashing things out. I mean, I don't really do much without running it by a few people, you know? And hey, how does this sound? Is this right? Do you think that this is okay to say? Should I not say this? So I think the community, the church body, is helpful when it comes to that.
But yeah, yes, it still is to this day. I don't think I ever get up on stage and open scripture and think, oh yeah, I got this.
Andrew: I got this.
Kelly: No, no, no. I think most of the time I'm still walking up going, okay, Lord, I hope that I'm doing this justice. And that I do believe in grace. I'm all about that too.
But I try to be really well prepared and well studied, but yeah, it's intimidating, yes.
Andrew: The desire to learn, I think that's something really important. Mark and I were talking with all of our friend, Patsy Clairmont, yesterday about-
Kelly: I love that.
Andrew: Remaining curious. Of course, we were talking about that as you get older, like never stopping somewhere, stopping the learning process. But I think especially when we come into our spiritual lives, wanting to always be interested, wanting to be curious, like I was telling you before we started that my dad would always ask us even as kids, "What do you think about that?" after we heard a sermon, which gave us the permission to be in relationship with God ourselves.
I mean, it goes back to ancient times, right? This is accessible to us. It's not just a priest or it's not just someone delivering the Word of God to us. The Word of God is available to all of us.
“The Word of God is available to all of us.”
Kelly: Right.
Andrew: So how do you stay- Like when you've got deadlines and when you've got books to finish and when you've got speaking tours to be on, how do you personally stay curious about the Bible but also just in life?
Kelly: Yeah, taking time. So like I was off last week, which is hard, you know. We're all busy. It's all crazy. But I took a week vacation, and it was so nice to just let my mind go wherever it wanted to go. So taking that time, taking small portions of scripture and really thinking about them, like really.
So on vacation, I'm reading through John's gospel, and I'm reading about the blind man, and all the religious leaders are like, "Well, what sin did he commit," you know? And even the disciples are like, what did he do to become blind? Like what sin did he commit? And Jesus is like, "He didn't commit any sin. This has nothing to do with sin." And he says it happens so that the works of God might be displayed in him.
And I've read that a bunch of times, but I was sitting there and I was like, oh my gosh. So like any of my brokenness, any of my struggles, God's work can actually be displayed in me. There was something about the "in him" that just like blew my mind because I had time.
Whereas if I had been racing out the door or something, I would've been like, oh yeah, yeah, but I stopped. Like I got my journal out, and I thought, what a remarkable passage to think about God's work being displayed in Andrew or like being displayed in me.
And so thinking about stuff like that and just having time is the big thing for me because otherwise it starts to get pretty rote and you're like, I got to turn this thing in, I got to, and as soon as it starts feeling like that to me, I'm not saying that the Lord can't use it, because I think he does.
Andrew: Sure, yeah.
Kelly: But I try to stop and go, okay, Lord I'm getting a little- This is getting a little dry and crispy, like I need to- So I think for me...
Andrew: Refreshed.
Kelly: Just yeah, refreshed, and not always having everything be on a deadline, like it's not a school paper or it's not for a project or it's not for a publishing thing. This is like for me to sit with you and to hear the voice of God. That's how I stay curious, and reading other people is huge, you know?
Andrew: Yeah. You're also talking about the difference between being a professional Christian, if you will, and having a personal relationship with God.
Kelly: Yeah. Right, right.
Andrew: Which can be tricky if your deadline is based around a Bible study and you are in the Bible to get the Bible study done, which is not a terrible thing.
Kelly: No.
Andrew: But it is also what you're doing for work. It's also part of your productivity. I think space is absolutely necessary. That's why like the Catholics have it so right in being contemplative, right, and having time reserved for reflection.
Kelly: Yes.
Andrew: Because that's where I think what I hear you saying is where we can actually receive.
Kelly: Yep.
Andrew: And then it's out of the reception, as in like being able to receive is where we're then able to pour out. At least at some point that's got to balance out, right?
Kelly: Absolutely, yes.
Andrew: You know, it's not selfish to be alone or to be quiet or to take a break.
Kelly: Right. No, I mean, we have to have it. And I can tell when I'm in professional Christian mode versus Jesus, Holy Spirit place. And there is a difference. And I think too like the older I get, I realize that there's a lot that I can just kind of like accomplish on my own, but it's really boring. And when the Holy Spirit is in it and you are part of that, you go, okay, that's it, that's what I want. And that I can't just manufacture. That has to be the Lord and me walking in a posture of prayer and humility and all of that. And so I'm seeking more of those moments where you just know that was the Lord. That was not me like just putting a good talk together, good whatever.
Andrew: So there's a project that you were a part of that's called Faithful, and the idea Faithful, it's a collection of a lot of authors, speakers, musicians, some of you are both, who contribute to chapters in a book and all sorts of songs on a musical project, and it's called Faithful. Folks like you, our good friend Ginny Owens, of course.
Kelly: Yeah.
Andrew: And Amy Grant and Sandra McCracken. I mean, the list is really amazing.
Kelly: Yeah, Ellie.
Andrew: Yeah, Ellie Holcomb and Lisa Harper, and all y'all coming together in a room to highlight the role of women in the carriage of the gospel throughout history, right? And so tell me what it was like to be not only in those rooms with those women but really to be a part of a project that is hailing such a beautiful part of God's story.
Kelly: Yeah. Well, it was great because it was very authentic and just beautiful people. You know, Christy Nockels, Sally Lloyd-Jones. I mean, just really amazing, and it was very humbling because you could look to your left or your right or across the room, and everybody was like, somebody was a better player, a better singer, a better writer. But that wasn't the point. The point was that, like you said, all there to celebrate women who had carried the gospel and to collaborate. And that's the beauty. You end up coming up with songs that you wouldn't have come up with by yourself, but they wouldn't have come up with that song without you either.
And oh, Ann Voskamp was part of that project.
Andrew: Yeah, yes.
Kelly: She's just one of my favorites too.
And then I got to write a chapter on the book of Ruth, which has always been a near and dear book of the Bible to me. I've written a study on that, so got to write that chapter, and yeah, it was wonderful.
We got together multiple times, and then we even did like a little concert kind of for ourselves, which was interesting because I think in our world we just always have this idea of like we should have this like taped or more people should have been here or we should have had these people. But there's something about like no, this was so awesome, and it's okay that there was just us and we could celebrate this.
So yeah, it was a really, really fabulous project to be a part of. And I'm really proud of the record and the book.
Andrew: You know, the only real question I have, and I think Mark and I both have this question, is why weren't we invited to be a part of Faithful?
Kelly: You know, these are-
Mark: I'd love to be a fly on the wall.
Andrew: Okay. Take me into that project that you have coming out later this year, and it's about spiritual disciplines. So first, when I think of spiritual disciplines, I think of Richard Foster.
Kelly: You start to get tired. Oh yeah.
Andrew: So spiritual discipline of… Well, I think about that book and then I get tired because I remember reading that book and just trying to get through it. And then I think about just the word discipline can be such a trigger because it means I have to give up something or I have to fight off something or whatever. Why were you compelled to get into kind of that topic and the headiness of that too?
Kelly: Yeah. Yeah. Well, this Bible study ended up being, it was really surprising for me because it's one of those things where you're getting back to the fundamentals of the faith, and you're getting back to practices that people have been practicing for thousands of years. And I was able to trace these practices throughout the scriptures. You have prayer, study, celebration, meditation, like, you know, scripture meditation, generosity, gratitude, service. I mean, so much stuff. And you can, you can start to get overwhelmed and think I can't even like get into my Bible for five minutes, how I'm going to do these, you know, disciplines?
But when you think about anything that you or I have done that has been worth it, it is because we disciplined ourselves at one point. Like you sit down at the piano now, and it is effortless for you, but that is because you disciplined yourself to do something that at one point was not effortless.
Andrew: Sure.
Kelly: You had to train your hands and your mind and everything. And now what was once impossible is now actually quite simple for you. Whereas I cannot sit down to the piano. Because I fought my mom and piano lessons. I can pick up a guitar.
Andrew: You can do a guitar very nicely.
Kelly: But those are things that, as you go, they actually, these disciplines actually create freedom for us, and they empower us. So there are not ways to manipulate God in any way, but they do put us in the best position to be in relationship with the Lord and things that used to be difficult, like maybe praying for 15 minutes or reading the Word for 20 minutes or serving at our church or whatever, they actually start to feel less like disciplines and more like life-giving activities that we really would miss if we're not engaged in them.
And I think, too, like I was thinking about exercise. Like okay, so I have to like kind drive myself to get on the Peloton or whatever. I have to make myself. And I do it for results, right? Like I get on there for results, and I love the Peloton instructor. She's awesome, she's super encouraging, she's all like bright and cool. So much cooler than me.
“Disciplines actually create freedom for us, and they empower us.”
Andrew: Never sweating.
Kelly: Yeah, never sweating, looks amazing, and you're looking at her, so actually starting to think, I like look like that. And then I catch myself up in the mirror. I'm like, oh, this is so depressing, but I don't go to hang out with the instructor. I don't go for her. I go for results, right? That's why I'm there.
But the spiritual disciplines are actually the exact opposite of that. Like we're not really doing them for a result. We're doing them for relationship, and we will see results. But I think we get it turned around when we think, oh, I've got to do all these things, so I can- Like the Lord's going to bless this or he's going to do this or he's going to give me that.
Andrew: The tit for tat.
Kelly: That's like so not what these are about. But I do think that they, worship, all of these, they're relationship based. Relationship with the church body, relationship with Christ, depending on if you're looking at an inward discipline or an outward discipline. But then results come, but if we're results motivated, it's going to be short-lived, and it's going to feel really legalistic I think too.
Andrew: Then aren't the results more satisfying anyway, because it goes back to what we were talking about, spirit life, that we are a participant in it. We do put effort into it, but the result of the effort is something kind of beyond our own comprehension.
Kelly: Yes.
Andrew: You know, it's a bit more serious. So I love the ability to have conversations with you always, Kelly, and I certainly love your teaching. I love your ability to extract from scripture things that are palpable, things that are understandable. And of course, that is helpful for the church at large. And so I'm grateful that you're willing to participate that way. And I think, also, for our little Dinner Conversations audience, our conversation today will be enlightening and helpful and maybe even empowering.
Kelly: Awesome, I love it.
Andrew: Thank you.
Kelly: Thanks, Andrew.
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Andrew: Oh.
Mark: Oh yeah.
Andrew: Here's the food.
Mark: Hold that thought.
Ginny: That's right.
Andrew: So yeah, Hebrew, what you got? What phrase?
Ginny: I'm trying to think of a good phrase.
Andrew: You got like a little song or a phrase, or like God? What's God in Hebrew?
Mark: Thank you, Lord, for this food. In Jesus' name, amen.
Ginny: Amen. Yes.
Andrew: What's amen?
Ginny: I mean, there's words that we know like Eloah is like the word for God and...
Mark: El Shaddai.
Ginny: And like Elohim.
Andrew: Amy taught us that.
Ginny: Yes, is like a version...
Mark: Did you know that I've taken Hebrew?
Andrew: You did?
Ginny: Well, and so what's super interesting is Yahweh, which was, you know, the name that God, the I am name that God gave to himself.
Mark: Right.
Ginny: When he talked to Moses. The Jews revere that name so much that they don't speak it, so they always say Adonai instead.
Mark: Interesting.
Andrew: Adonai, interesting instead of Yahweh.
Ginny: And even though, which is sort of another word for God. But so when we read Hebrew, if we come across Yahweh, we can't say it. We have to say a Adonai.
Andrew: Really? That's interesting.
Okay, so tell me this so we can get to eating, not because I don't like talking about you. Because I want you to eat your food.
Ginny: No, I'm fine.
Andrew: I have heard you say many times and that almost maybe in a way of wishing you could express this to others maybe, but that blindness is a challenge, yes.
Ginny: Sure.
Andrew: But it is not your greatest challenge.
Ginny: No.
Andrew: Is that true?
Ginny: It is true. It is so true. I feel like, you know, so I lost my eyesight when I was 3-years-old.
Mark: Oh, I didn't know that.
Ginny: Well, it was hereditary, and I had a little bit of vision, and I had a surgery that was actually supposed to improve the vision that I had. And we kind of think maybe the doctor wasn't so great, but the surgery he did ended up just taking away all my vision.
Mark: What you had.
Ginny: Yeah.
Andrew: When you were 3-years-old, is that right?
Ginny: When I was three. Yeah. So I was sort of in the middle of learning colors. Apparently my favorite one was purple, but I don't really remember. And honestly, my parents were great about just saying, you know, live your life. So I mean, I rode bikes and roller skated and climbed trees and, you know, did all the things that I'd never get to do.
Andrew: Don't you wish we could get that on camera?
Ginny: I know.
Andrew: She'd be riding a bike.
Mark: Wow, you rode bikes.
Ginny: Oh yeah, for sure. I think I was already learning to ride.
Mark: Okay.
Ginny: And so, but, but yeah, I mean, it was all, you know, and they're lots of blind folks that do crazier stuff than that every day.
Andrew: It's true, yeah.
Ginny: But I feel like, you know, one of the things that is always the initial barrier-
Mark: Here's your fork. Lean in and eat one.
Ginny: All right.
Mark: You like ketchup on it?
Ginny: No, I'm so good. Thank you.
Mark: Oh, you are?
Ginny: I'm so good.
But one of the things that's always so challenging when you first meet people is they'll maybe say things, if they're really kind, they'll say things like, "Well, if you need any help, let me know." And sometimes it's like, you know, no, why don't we just be friends?
Andrew: Yeah.
Ginny: That's what I need more because people don't realize that, you know, I don't think about being blind like all the time. Like other people do, but not me.
Andrew: This is your norm.
Ginny: This is my norm. So I'm thinking about what I'm struggling with today or like the good thing that just happened or hanging out with these two hot guys and eating eggs.
Andrew: Yeah. Do you hear that Mark?
Mark: I believe her eyesight was just healed.
Ginny: Yep.
Andrew: Exactly.
So do you think at this point in your life, you could say what is my greatest challenge?
Ginny: What is my greatest challenge? Right now, it's trying to get through school, trying to write a book on a really short deadline. There's a lot of great challenge.
You know, I think my greatest challenge is resting. Like learning to rest like, you know, learning to rest in the knowledge that God is in charge, that I don't have to earn his love. I don't have to earn anyone's love. Even just whatever's going on, I have come to a very simple view of how God sees me and just to know that I'm loved and to know that I don't have to prove anything to anyone. Like that I can spend my life giving or encouraging people but not trying to be, I don't know. I don't have to be a New York person.
Andrew: Sure
Ginny: You know, I don't have to sort of over achieve in every way, but just to sort of rest, I think, in the knowledge that I am complete and always growing, but because of who God is and because he's in me, I'm complete as I am.
So I think that's kind of my just learning to really- Because I believe that on some level, but learning to really believe it-
“Because of who God is and because he’s in me, I’m complete as I am.”
Mark: Learning to what?
Ginny: Learning to really believe it and learning to really rest.
Andrew: And then rest in it.
Mark: I wish to goodness I had trouble resting.
Ginny: Yeah.
Mark: I can lay down with the best of 'em.
Ginny: Oh, that's a gift.
Mark: Oh, I can take a nap. When I turned 60, I start taking naps, and I take one every day.
Ginny: Naps are so good.
Mark: They are so good.
Ginny: I'm so glad you do that. Can you take some naps for me? I would really like it if someone would do that.
Mark: You don't ever get a nap?
Ginny: I do sometimes, I do sometimes. Especially when I get up early and write and study, then sometimes at like 2 o'clock I'm like, all right, I need 20 minutes.
Mark: Yeah.
Ginny: And so that's a new thing though, but.
Andrew: Well, I think you're pretty darn complete.
Ginny: Well, thanks, friend.
Andrew: I've always thought that.
Mark: I think you're amazing actually.
Ginny: You're so sweet.
Mark: I love how you love Jesus.
Ginny: Aw.
Mark: I do love that most about you because it just, when you talk about him, your face glows.
Ginny: Yeah. He's a pretty cool dude.
Mark: Isn't he?
Ginny Owens singing “Be Thou My Vision”
Be Thou my vision, O Lord of my heart
Naught be all else to me, save that Thou art
Thou my best thought, by day or by night
Waking or sleeping, Thy presence my light
I will lift up my eyes
To my Help and my Peace
Till my faith becomes sight
Be my Light and my Strength
Riches I heed not, nor man's empty praise
Thou mine inheritance, now and always
Thou and Thou only, first in my heart
High King of heaven, my Treasure Thou art
High King of heaven, my victory won
May I reach heaven's joys, O bright heaven's sun
Heart of my own heart, whatever befalls
Still be my vision, O ruler of all
I will lift up my eyes
To my Help and my Peace
Till my faith becomes sight
Be my Light and my Strength
I will lift up my eyes
To my Help and my Peace
Till my faith becomes sight
Be my Light and my Strength
Mark: Now one thing I loved, the thought that the first face you're ever going to see is Jesus. I mean, that overwhelms me.
Ginny: It overwhelms me too. And you know, it's like Paul says, like we're all kind of a little bit blind right now, right? Like we're all looking through a blurry glass.
Mark: Yes.
Ginny: But there's going to be a day when we get it, like when we all see. So really the very next face we all perfectly see is going to be Jesus'.
Mark: What a day that will be.
Ginny: So cool, I know.
Andrew: Okay, here we go. Ready? Okay. Wait, how does that work?
Ginny: What? How's that work?
Andrew: I take the sticky.
Ginny: You have to put your hands flat.
Mark: Does this have a roller on the bottom?
Ginny: It does have a roller on this one, yeah.
So then you put this finger, your index finger, like straight out.
Andrew: Like that?
Ginny: Yep.
Andrew: Okay.
Ginny: And then you just...
Andrew: Like a golf club kind of?
Ginny: Yeah, kind of. Yep.
Andrew: Okay. So how do you, and you just hang on to me.
Ginny: And then you do your left side with your right foot.
Andrew: Wait, I'm going to close my eyes.
Ginny: Left side, right foot. But you got to put it in front of you. Left side, right foot. There you go.
Andrew: So this makes sure I don't hit like-
Ginny: Something or...
Cameraman: Like me.
Ginny: All right. Y'all close your eyes, and I'm going to lead you back to my house. You ready? All right. Here we go. All right, hold on. Yep. Hold on tight. Here we go. We got to get across the street.
Mark: Oh my.
Ginny: Yep.
Mark: I had to peek a little.
Ginny: Okay. Oh, all right. Almost to the curb, careful.
Mark: Watch the curb.
Andrew: Did you say you had to pee a little?
Ginny: No, peek.
Mark: Oh my gosh.
Ginny: Peek a little.
Andrew: Are we still going?
Mark: You need a hearing aid.
Andrew: I got my eyes closed.
Ginny: Well, open them.
Mark: Thank you for watching Dinner Conversations. Don't forget to subscribe, and then ring that bell and get all notifications.
Andrew: And don't forget to like us or dislike us. Don't do that. Leave comments, talk about what's resonating in your life from these conversations, and join us next time for Dinner Conversations with-
Mark: Mark Lowry.
Andrew: And Andrew Greer.
Mark: Turning the light on.
Andrew: One question at a time.
Mark: Dinner Conversations is brought to you by Food for the Hungry, an incredible relief and community development organization, serving those with physical and spiritual needs around the world for 50 years this year.
Andrew: Help us as we help our friends at Food for the Hungry save thousands of lives and Ethiopia today by considering a generous gift.
Mark: A gift that will be matched 22 times.
Andrew: Your one-time gift will make an eternal difference. So visit fh.org/dinner to give now.
From Depression to Distribution featuring Candy Christmas
A Gospel music favorite since she was a teenager, Candy Christmas grew up on stage singing to thousands and soaking up the crowd's ovations. But it wasn't until she fell into a deep depression, contemplating suicide and the end of her options for living, when she was invited to feed the homeless on the streets of her hometown of Nashville, Tennessee and she discovered the gift that saved her life – giving. Hear Candy's life-changing story, plus go behind-the-scenes as we visit her now-staple outreach to the underprivileged, The Bridge, with her late son, Joshua Christmas.
A Gospel music favorite since she was a teenager, Candy Christmas grew up on stage singing to thousands and soaking up the crowd's ovations. But it wasn't until she fell into a deep depression, contemplating suicide and the end of her options for living, when she was invited to feed the homeless on the streets of her hometown of Nashville, Tennessee and she discovered the gift that saved her life – giving. Hear Candy's life-changing story, plus go behind-the-scenes as we visit her now-staple outreach to the underprivileged, The Bridge, with her late son, Joshua Christmas.
Transcript
Mark: Dinner Conversations is brought to you by Food for the Hungry, an incredible relief and community development organization serving those with physical and spiritual needs around the world for 50 years this year.
Andrew: Help us as we help our friends at Food for the Hungry save thousands of lives in Ethiopia today by considering a generous gift.
Mark: A gift that will be matched 22 times.
Andrew: Your one-time gift will make an eternal difference. So visit fh.org/dinner to give now.
Mark: We are excited to be here Under The Bridge. This is a ministry to the poor, the homeless that was started by Candy Christmas, and it started 'cause she was depressed. And someone said, "Well, come help me feed the poor under the bridge." So from depression to distribution of food and clothing.
Andrew: That's true.
Mark: I mean, they do it all here. That could be the episode title.
Andrew: That's a wonderful title. We had a great time sitting down with Candy around the table in our normal spot hearing her story. And when we heard her story about The Bridge, we knew we had to come down here and see it for ourselves. So I unleashed Mark on the whole thing. He's doing all the work today. We're excited.
Mark: So there's one seat left Under The Bridge tonight, and it's yours. So let's join the conversation.
Mark: I have loved you for so long.
Candy: Well, I have loved you too. Except when I first met you.
Mark: Yeah, no, I remember. Oh yeah.
Andrew: Oh, tell us about that.
Mark: When Tanya Goodman, I met you through DeeDee Oldham, yes.
Candy: DeeDee Oldham, Doug Oldham.
Mark: And I was probably 19 or 20. I was fresh out of Liberty.
Candy: And you made your first record, and you came over and made us listen to that.
Mark: Made everybody-
Andrew: This is his very first record?
Candy: Yeah.
Mark: I knew I was just like my mother. I did, I made everybody listen to it. And also, I was really self-righteous kind of because I remember just being appalled that J. D. Sumner smoked cigarettes.
Candy: And I defended J. D. Sumner.
Mark: And you defended him.
Candy: I did.
Mark: Because he has been so good to your family. You see, you knew the real J. D., right?
Candy: Yeah.
Mark: And I was coming from this, you don't smoke, you don't drink, you don't dance, you don't cuss, you don't da da, you don't, don't, don't, don't, don't. And you had seen the Jesus side of J. D. that I got to see later.
Candy: To see, yeah, he was wonderful. I'm really glad.
Mark: And so anyway, now here you are all these years later after "Consider the Lilies," which you say you don't sing anymore.
Candy: You know what? Most people don't wanna hear me sing. They wanna hear me talk about the homeless.
Mark: Sure.
Candy: And so I go out and speak a lot and just-
Mark: You don't sing when you go out?
Candy: Not really very much.
Mark: How can you not? You have one of the most wonderful voices.
Candy: Really nice of you.
Andrew: Does it feel like a loss of communication or does it just feel like your life has shifted into that, communication is different?
Candy: Yeah, communication is different. I still feel like I'm communicating, and singing was a wonderful chapter in my life, and I look on it with great fondness. But for me, mobile ministry, traveling, if you did any good, you never saw it. And I constantly dealt with feeling like a failure.
Mark: Oh.
Candy: And so now that I'm under a bridge and planted here in Nashville, I see the fruit of the labor. And so-
Mark: The Bridge Ministry.
Candy: The Bridge Ministry.
Andrew: And take us back to how you got into The Bridge Ministry. Like, was that feeling like a failure consistently or that self-criticism or whatever it was while you were singing?
Mark: Yeah, can I?
Andrew: Yeah, you can.
Mark: Please. I hate to interrupt like that, but I just, you talked about the, you insinuated depression. You went through a depression 'cause you didn't see the fruit of your work on the road. Is that what I heard you saying?
Candy: Yeah, I think that was the root of it. I was self-loathing I think.
Mark: Really?
Candy: Because of just feeling like a failure. It's terrible, but-
Andrew: Because not enough people in the audience, was it that kind of thing, was it a stats thing?
Candy: I think it was awards and measures of-
Andrew: Achievement, yeah.
Candy: Of achievement, yes, that's right. And I think what my heart was really longing for was to see fruit from my ministry because now those types of things don't ever cross my mind because I see success every day, and success for different people is different for everybody, okay?
“I think what my heart was really longing for was to see fruit from my ministry.”
Mark: Right.
Candy: And so my success, if you will, is in people and in the lives of people. And so I feel like the most successful person in the world. I do.
Andrew: But it took you time to get there. Like I do wanna talk about the depression because that is a journey that's not, though each story is unique.
Candy: Sure.
Andrew: Depression is something that's not unique. We have so many people. I've experienced levels of depression. I would say a lot of people in the artistic communities as well, maybe because of that striving for a certain level of success, it doesn't really feed the spirit.
Candy: Right.
Andrew: But you found yourself in a place of pretty deep depression.
Candy: So my focus was on myself. I was self-oriented. And so when I got my focus off of myself and it took me a long time. I suffered from depression for a couple of years, and my doctor wanted to institutionalize me and sedate me, medicate me. And so I did not take medication.
Mark: Were you suicidal
Candy: Oh, I put a loaded 38 to my head twice.
Mark: You're kidding.
Candy: Yes, horrible. So I fought demons that I hope that you'll never know anything about, just horrible. And I would stay up nights, all night, and with thoughts of morbidity, death, suicide, all those things.
Mark: Did your family know all this?
Candy: Okay, so yes and no, because I still had, my children were still living at home. And so when I had to get up and be a mom, then I would, but most days I would take them to school and lie in a dark room until I had to go and pick them up.
And so my husband, I'm married to a wonderful man, and he would come in in the dark, and I had the curtains drawn and I would lie in the bed all day and just overcome with horrible thoughts. And so he would just come in and just pray for me, not have any great words of wisdom, but just lay his hands on me. And I could literally feel the spirit of God. I could feel virtue leaving him when he laid his hands on me to pray for me and coming into my body.
So I was on a journey. So I battled for a couple of years, and I lost down to under 100 pounds and I lost my appetite. And you ask about, did my family know? So this is how I can explain it. I went through the motions and I was hollow, I was empty inside. And it was like, I was walking the earth like a zombie going through the motions, like suspended between, I couldn't die. I was scared to die, scared to commit suicide, worried about my soul and the hereafter, right? But then I couldn't live, so I'm just going through the motions of life.
Andrew: Which has to be worse in some ways than dying.
Candy: It's absolute hell.
Andrew: There's no grace in it, yeah.
Candy: No, it's absolute hell. And it's really weird because my gift, if that is a spiritual gift, I don't know, is mercy, mercy and grace for other people but absolutely none for myself.
Mark: Ain't that interesting. I think that's true of a lot of people.
Candy: Do you think so?
Mark: Oh, for me, I was always much more gracious to others than myself.
Candy: Yeah.
Andrew: I've heard it said that we don't extend true grace until we've actually really learned that, yes, we can be gracious and merciful, but that real grace happens, begins to be extended, when we extend it to ourselves.
Mark: I let myself off the hook on everything. I have worked through it, honey. I say, oh, that's just ol' Mark.
So you are in this depressed state, and then one day what happened?
Candy: So I went to a friend's house. They were building a house, and there was this little old man that was laying the tile in the bathroom and in the kitchen there. And he was a lay minister. He worked a job but still would minister on the side. And he'd seen me on the Gaither videos. And I think he was pretty shocked by what he saw, because there I stood frail and gaunt and depressed. And he said, "You really look like you could use a pick me up here. You look pretty bad." And I said, “Well, I'm suffering from depression." And he said, "I roast hot dogs for homeless people in Nashville under a bridge." And he said, "Can you cook?" 'Cause I was so skinny I guess he thought I couldn't cook. And I said, "Yes, I can cook." And he said, "Well, what can you cook?" I said, "Well, I was raised in Louisiana. I can make jambalaya for any size of crowd." He said, "Well, make your jambalaya. Meet me under the bridge."
And so I did, and I found very gracious, grateful people under that bridge that had real problems. See my problems were up here, okay? But their problems were, if it rains tonight, I'm gonna sleep wet.
Andrew: In the physical, yeah.
Candy: Yeah, my problems are that if someone doesn't help me eat today, I'm gonna eat out of a dumpster. Those are real problems. And so I got excited. And so the next day I got up and I went-
Mark: You had something to live for.
Candy: I had something to live for. I went to Dollar General and bought all the toothbrushes and toothpaste. And I went to Walmart and bought socks and I went all these places, buying, buying, and then it dawned on me, peanut butter is a huge source of protein and it doesn't have to be refrigerated. So I'm stacking up my husband's garage.
Finally, one day my husband said, "Somebody's leaving home and it's me or The Bridge Ministry." So that's when I got my warehouse.
Mark: That's when you got your what?
Candy: Warehouse.
Mark: Yeah.
Candy: So anyway, I would like to circle back and say this.
Andrew: Yes.
Candy: I didn't take medication, but I don't fault anyone who does.
Mark: Right.
Candy: I have family members on medication
Mark: Absolutely.
Candy: And I feel like that you really just have to do what you have to do to get through a tough time. And I get that, I understand it. But for me, I was on a journey.
Andrew: So you don't look back and wish you had or think that would've helped? I guess it would've been a different path.
Candy: I was on a path of brokenness. It was my dark night of the soul. It was an eclipse for Candy, okay? The Candy Christmas that went into depression is a different person that came out, okay? The person going in was so concerned about her fingernails and her eyelashes I couldn't be concerned about someone else's needs, okay? The person that came out was-
Mark: Still cares about her fingernails and her eyelashes, thank God.
Andrew: I know, this is the best I've ever looked for a Dinner Conservation because I have a little bit of a crush.
Mark: Thank goodness, I feel like you didn't lose everything.
Candy: No, I can't. I can't lose everything.
Mark: You still know how to look good. Okay, go ahead, go ahead.
Candy: Well, so-
Mark: So the one who went in cared about her eyelashes and fingernails and the one that came out, I interrupted you.
Andrew: There was some difference.
Candy: It's okay. Yeah, I was just a different person that really cared about things.
Mark: And the depression was gone?
Candy: Well, I read this doctor's report that says that when you do acts of kindness for other people, that there's an endorphin that's released inside your body and it's called oxytocin. And oxytocin is that happy thing. It's the warm and fuzzy. You get an overlap-
Andrew: It is an after high, right?
Candy: It is. An overload of oxytocin was your first crush, okay? When in grade school, that's oxytocin. And this doctor likened it to a cocaine high. So I've never taken cocaine, but I got high on people, on loving people, on taking care of people. And so I found out that what I've heard all my life that it's more blessed to give than to receive.
Mark: Ain't it the truth?
Candy: It is the truth. It truly is.
Mark: It is the truth.
Andrew: So giving was the medium, essentially, that carried you out of depression.
Candy: Yeah, and I've been listening to a sermon series on the providence of God, and that while the homeless people healed me and I was healing them, I can't take out the hand of God that led me through that, that so radically changed me and made me a vessel of honor, and I'm grateful.
Mark: And I love that you own that. You are a vessel of honor, and it's okay to say. It ain't bragging if it's true.
Andrew: No.
Mark: And the ministry you're doing under that bridge, I mean, it is not only changed your life, but it's all those, how many people every, is it every Tuesday now?
Candy: Every Tuesday. Okay, so this is what we do. If you've never been to The Bridge, now Mark came and sang for the homeless people under the bridge for me.
Andrew: I'm coming.
Candy: Okay, all right, I'm gonna look for you
Mark: Just don't let him sing.
Candy: Well, we literally set up chairs and lights and mobile kitchens, and we serve a hot meal and we give an encouraging message of hope. We always give an altar call and win souls for Christ. Then we distribute about 25,000 pounds of groceries.
Andrew: Every week.
Candy: Every week. So there are a lot of homeless ministries that turn away people who maybe live in the projects and whatnot. I don't turn anybody away.
Andrew: Or caught up in addiction.
Mark: You're hungry, you can come eat.
Candy: If you're hungry, come.
Mark: Wow. How many do you feed? What's a range?
Candy: So it varies, okay? It varies. At the first of the month, they have their checks, so the crowd is lower.
Andrew: Okay, okay.
Candy: Right, so we might have 300 or 400. By the end of the month, we can have as high as 1,000.
Mark: Wow.
Candy: So another arm of the ministry is that there are 4,000 homeless children in Nashville. Greater Davidson County has over 3,000 homeless children enrolled in the public school system.
Andrew: That are going to the public schools.
Candy: Yeah, so they eat at home, but on the weekend, I mean, sorry they eat at school, but when they go home, there's no food.
Mark: Oh, wow.
Andrew: Is that part of what I've heard food insecure?
Candy: Food insecure.
Andrew: That's for children, right? In these situations?
Candy: Right, and it's also for adults.
Andrew: Okay.
Candy: Because food insecure sadly-
Mark: I don't know about that, what that means. I've never heard that phrase.
Candy: Hungry, just hungry.
Andrew: Means they don't know where their next meal is coming from, right?
Candy: That's right, okay. And so a lot of times what happens is drugs is an epidemic. And if there is a disability in the family and they're receiving government subsidies, a lot of times the government subsidies goes to an addiction.
Andrew: Okay, okay.
Candy: They can sell their cards, their food stamp cards. They can turn it into drugs. So then there are children sitting in projects, are sitting in hotel rooms, are sleeping in cars with parents that-
Andrew: I mean, we have all these assumptions about the homeless, and maybe four or five years ago a good friend of mine, Cindy Morgan, and I started playing around in local places around the country just for the local organizations feeding the local people, not unlike The Bridge. And what we started to see when we heard stories of people, 'cause we would play for the homeless community first and then invite them to the concert and whatever, organized all that. And we would talk to these people, some with doctorates. What we realized is we're only one or two steps away oftentimes.
Candy: That's right.
Andrew: Like the line between us and being on the streets or living out of an addiction that is debilitating. Have you seen that? It's a thin line, right?
Candy: Yeah, well, okay, and so I just wanna pause here and say that many of them go through a dark night of the soul, and instead of turning to Christ, they turn to an addiction, right? And so then most of the time that or mental illness.
Andrew: Sure.
Candy: And then they're out in the streets.
Andrew: Out of employment, they're out of whatever.
Candy: That's right.
Andrew: Or don't have the support of a family structure to maybe, I mean, you did have your husband in that time.
Candy: That's exactly right. And my church family. I mean, I wasn't not going to church. I wasn't not praying, reading my Bible. I was doing all the things that I thought I was supposed to do
Mark: Even while you were depressed.
Candy: Oh, yeah.
Andrew: Okay, I got to ask you something about that then.
Candy: Okay.
Andrew: So you're praying while you're depressed. You're literally in this dark eye of the soul. You said you're in the suspension between the dead and the living basically.
Candy: Yes, that's right.
Andrew: And we hear a lot. I mean, I think a good encouragement, or they're trying to be kind, to say just pray about it. I mean, if you grew up in church or you're in church circles, you hear "just pray about it" all the time. Did you ever think in your head that I just need to pray harder? I just need get in my prayer closet all day, all night and this will go away.
Candy: So I did that. I did that.
The denomination that I came from everything was the devil. Devil behind every bush and probably two devils. And so every day, I would go in my prayer closet and work up a sweat praying. Devil, out behind you in the name of Jesus. What I bind on earth is bound in heaven. What I lose on earth is lose to heaven. I bind you, suicide. I bind you, depression. And I'm more and more depressed every day. Can only get out of bed. Just sweating.
Andrew: Yeah.
Candy: And so I remember one day I was in my prayer closet, I can remember exactly where I was sitting, sitting in Indian style in the middle of my closet, and I'm binding devils and boy I'm sweating. And finally I just stopped and I looked up and I said, "You know what, God, this is not working, is it?" And He said, "No, it isn't." I said, "Tell me what to do. What is the root? What is the root of this?" And the Lord, I mean, I didn't hear an audible voice, but know I heard the voice of God in my heart. And He said, "Your will is fighting my will. And when your will submits to my will, then you'll find peace."
See, my will was out singing gospel music and being famous and all of that. God knew that there were 11,000 homeless people in Nashville that needed the gospel of Jesus Christ. He knew that there were 4,000 children that are under-resourced. I didn't know that. So that day in my prayer closet, first of all, I repented for fighting against God's will. And then I said, "Lord, if you take me to a tent in China and I live there handing out tracks for the rest of my life, Jesus Christ will be enough. Without all the fixings, without fame, whether I ever make it on Christian television, just give me Jesus in a tent, it will be enough for me."
And I had to come to the place, I had to get right back down to the basics. There are a lot of people that are out there trying to do great things, and they don't even tie their tennis shoes, get the basics. Jesus Christ is enough. Know Him.
Mark: Jesus plus nothing.
“Jesus plus nothing.”
Candy: I like it, I've never heard that, but yeah.
Mark: Oh, I've heard preachers preach that, yeah. Jesus plus nothing.
Andrew: Plus nothing.
Mark: He's all. It is finished, When He said "it is finished" on the cross, that's a period, that's over, done.
Andrew: Did you feel that shift when you finally did submit or when you realized-
Candy: Oh, immediately.
Andrew: Okay, like in your heart and your spirit and your-
Candy: Oh, immediately.
Mark: But you're saying your deliverance came in the doing, right? You got up out of bed-
Andrew: From depression.
Mark: And you went and you met this little preacher who putting tile down and he said, "Come help me roast some weenies."
Andrew: I would say jambalaya would be the deliverance.
Candy: Jambalaya.
Mark: I want the recipe.
Candy: Okay, you can have it.
Mark: I love jambalaya.
Candy: So I think that-
Mark: But we need the recipe right now, no.
Candy: Well, you start with a roux.
Mark: Oh, I'd have to get that in the jar. You know you can get it in a jar.
Candy: Oh, I know.
Mark: Okay.
Andrew: Yeah, you're not gonna do it, are you?
Mark: The ADD took over.
Andrew: What he's saying is you're like a jambalaya.
Candy: Okay.
Andrew: Jesus started with the roux.
Candy: Yeah, well, so I think the change first came in my heart and then God gave me the doing.
Mark: Okay, so anybody depressed watching this today, and there're gonna be some ladies like you, probably around your age, who are going through the same thing. And you said you think that their will's not in alignment with God's will?
Candy: No, no, that's not what I'm saying.
Mark: Okay.
Candy: I think that everybody's root is different.
Mark: Everybody's root is different.
Andrew: This was your personal experience.
Candy: And so I had to find the root for Candy.
Mark: But still the doing, they can still do that. Like if you're depressed, you can still go to hospital visits.
Andrew: And serve.
Mark: Or you can still go help serve, and that's got to help lift your spirits. Like you said, that endorphin thing.
Candy: No doubt.
Andrew: Like when we're spinning, I feel like the best thing, when I'm spinning, best thing for me to do if I'm spinning in my head is to get out-
Candy: That's exactly right.
Andrew: And go participate in service to someone else.
Candy: I have people today. A girl lost her child in a car crash in September, serving the homeless now. I have a girlfriend, her brother and her son killed on Black Friday this past November right after Thanksgiving, serving the homeless now, wanting to do something for the homeless, pulling themself out.
Christ is using you. Yes, it's good for the homeless, but it's good for the church to get out of the four walls and not just the church but we as human beings to serve one another.
Mark: Yeah.
Food for the Hungry Sponsorship Message
Mark: You can help save thousands of lives by giving a generous gift to Food for the Hungry today.
Andrew: In the rural Dera district of Ethiopia, families are experiencing high death rates in children under five due to preventable water-related diseases. They simply don't have access to clean water sources or the infrastructure to practice good health and hygiene.
Mark: Until now. We're talking latrines, Andrew. Your gift today will provide families in the Dera district with clean water, health and hygiene training, hand washing stations, and lifesaving latrines. And to add to the impact, your gift will be matched 22 times, 22 times.
Andrew: It’s a wonderful opportunity, Mark. Food for the Hungry is already laying the groundwork now to provide a safe place to live for hundreds of thousands of vulnerable children and their families in Ethiopia. I think of Jesus's own words in the Gospels where he says, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself." The people of Ethiopia, Mark, they matter to God. And so they matter to us too. Will you help us let them know they are important to God and to their neighbors across the ocean? That's us.
Mark: Give generously today at fh.org/dinner. We're so excited that you'll be giving that we wanna give something to you. We have several add-ons, we call them, where we will be maybe making a special phone call to a friend of yours, a video.
Andrew: It's a little video, that's right, as shoutout videos for your friend's birthday or for an anniversary, or maybe like a Zoom conversation with just you, Mark, and me, or even a Zoom party with you and some of your friends. All these are just a simple way to say thank you for the life-saving gift that you're giving to Food for the Hungry, for our friends in Ethiopia, at fh.org/dinner.
Mark Tours The Bridge Ministry
Mark: Somebody on my live program last night said, "Mark, you're getting large." Well, I was using a wide angle lens and I was sitting to the side and you should know that a wide angle lens blossoms you to where you look twice your size. I tell them, "The camera adds 10 pounds." And then they wanna know how many cameras you got on you.
We are at The Bridge. This is a great, great ministry. Let me in.
Josh: So the kitchen is in here.
Mark: Okay.
Josh: So I can cook for 50 or 1,000 alone by myself. I do a lot of chicken Parmesan, barbecue meatballs, tacos, smoked sausages, Alfredo, stroganoff, that kind of stuff. The average is about 350 a week if you go over the course of the whole year-
Mark: 350 people?
Josh: Servings a week.
Mark: So how did you go from just being Candy's son to Candy's chef?
Josh: So I went to culinary school just 'cause we'd moved back from Jackson, Tennessee, my wife and I. I was in between jobs, and she was like, "Just go to school. Go to culinary school." So I did at Nashville State. I loved it, got out of that.
Now there was already people we had volunteers cooking every Tuesday here, so there was not a spot available for it. But after about a year, the Lord just opened up a door. Candy was like, "Come on, let's do this."
Mark: All right, this is The Bridge Ministry warehouse.
Josh: Yes, it is. We serve 4,000 children every week. A lot of kids don't have food to eat on the weekends, so we make a bag up with several entrees, peanut butter, mac and cheese, spaghetti, snacks, cereal that they get to take home on the weekend so they have food to eat.
Mark: From school.
Josh: From school.
Mark: So this will be delivered to some students somewhere.
Josh: Yep.
Mark: And it's stuff that won't rot.
Josh: It's not perishable, yeah.
Mark: Yeah, good.
Josh: You go deliver, take these to the schools, and little kids come up and hug you. They're so excited to get this food. It's really incredible.
Mark: Unbelievable. Yeah, I heard you mention you worked for a personal chef, right?
Josh: Yes, I did.
Mark: Why aren't you doing that? Why are you here?
Josh: 'Cause that wasn't fulfilling. I wanna do something with purpose, with passion.
Mark: Yeah.
Josh: And when I came on board here, I didn't realize how much it would affect me, how much it affects everybody. They realize what they have compared to what other people don't have. They see Jesus in the hands and feet of the people they serve with, and it really changes the lives of the volunteers and makes them more gracious to a group of people that they might not have been gracious to in the past.
What's not to love
What's not to love
The Savior took my place
What's not to love
Candy: Give a good, warm welcome to my good friend, Mr. Mark Lowry.
Mark: We love you, Candy.
About amazing grace
I'd like to know
I'd like to know what's not to love
Jennifer: Hello, my name is Jennifer Rancin, I'm the chief operating officer here at The Bridge. Right now we're standing underneath the Jefferson Street Bridge where for 17 years we have been here every single Tuesday night. There have been times when we're serving 300 to 500 people every night. Through the pandemic, the landscape has changed just a little bit, but what has not changed is God's love for these people and our commitment to be here every single Tuesday. So we would love it if you come on to Nashville and you join us.
What's not love
What's not to love about amazing grace
I'd like to know
I'd like to know what's not to love
What's not love
What's not to love the Savior took my place
What's not to love
What's not to love my sins have been erased
What's not to love
What's not to love about amazing grace
Somebody tell me
I'd like to know what's not to love
The Abide Bible Sponsorship Message
Mark: The Bible is the foundation of our theology. We would not know of Jesus if it weren't for the Bible. We wouldn't know about grace. We wouldn't know about how God cares for us. And there is a new Bible out called the Abide Bible. You know how Jesus said, if you abide in me as I abide in my father, and we abide in each other, and it's just a continual feed off each other. And what I like about this Bible is it's asking us to go deeper.
Andrew: Yeah, it's taking an approach to the Bible from being just simply informational to really being invitational. So there's a lot of prompts in this Bible to journal alongside Scriptures. It gives you opportunity to pray certain Scriptures at different seasons of your life, to meditate on the Scripture. There's beautiful artwork in here that's really cool cause it's not just like some kind of Sunday school artwork. They're using like da Vinci and beautiful pieces of classic art to really just get us to imagine, to be able to use all of our senses as we enter into Scripture, so that we really step into the story of Scripture, not just see it as words on a page but as part of a living, breathing active part of our lives. And you know what? I asked my brother one time, who's a pastor, I said, "Why is the Bible so important?" And he said exactly what you said a second ago, because it is the greatest written revelation of who God is. And so it gives us the opportunity to know God but also to be a part of God's story. That's the Abide Bible.
Mark: So go to abidebible.com to get your copy today.
Visit Dinner-Conversations.com for DVDs, CDs, and more!
Mark: Did you know that at dinner-conversations.com, we have a store. We have been around long enough to produce products.
Andrew: That you want.
Mark: You want this. A Dinner Conversations mug to hold your eight ounces of coffee in the morning, or less. And then one if you wanna look at us. See how intellectual I look with my glasses.
Andrew: You look like you're judging me.
Mark: Well, I am. It gives me that intellectual look.
Andrew: We also have DVDs full of all of our episodes and a bunch of bonus content you can't find anywhere else. We've got this Season One DVD with all kinds of guests, like Sandi Patty and Chonda Pierce and Point of Grace. And we've got this Season Two DVD set. I mean, these are tons of disks, Kathie Lee Gifford, Montell Jordan, Scott Hamilton, Amy Grant. And you know what else we have? We have the Songs from the Set CD where we sing a little bit together, but also, you'll hear a lot of songs from people like Russ Taff and The Isaacs, some of our very favorites. You can find all of that at dinner-conversations.com.
Andrew: I have a question, going back to when you were in one of your darkest places, 'cause I'm just personally interested in this. Your family around you, and I wonder if this hasn't also influenced your relationships with people that you meet Under The Bridge. When someone's in a dark place or maybe they're in a cycle of behavior that's not healthy for them or an addiction, we never want, like I always wanna caution myself from enabling them but I also wanna love them unconditionally. I feel like what your husband, his participation in that time of your depression to just come in and pray for you, to not advise you, have you experienced like, is there a line between unconditional love and enabling someone? Do you have to be careful not to enable people when they're in their darkest places?
Candy: Yes, and I've gone through that cycle, but let me pause here and say I'm not saying my husband never got frustrated with me. My husband got frustrated. Okay, six weeks, okay, you're depressed, now get up. But two years, really? It's time to get up and move on. So I have enabled people, I truly have, but God works in it all.
So do you have time to hear this story?
Mark: Yes.
Andrew: Yes.
Candy: Okay, so there was this guy named Fred under the bridge and this-
Mark: Fred-
Candy: Fred.
Mark: Okay.
Candy: So thin, so frail. He came to me, he says, "I'm dying of AIDS. I don't have money for my medication. And can you help me? Here's my prescription." So I'd give him his money every week for his AIDS medication. We even would give him a ride to Walgreens and all, and he's dying. And here I am, I'm so naive. I'm just praying, "God, heal Fred. Lord, heal." I'm just crying over Fred. I just felt like he was my child. He's dying of AIDS.
Well, after so much of that, I don't see him again. And so I'm crying, "God, Fred's died. He died." Well, so a couple of years later, Fred drives up in a car and he gets out, and he's gained 80 or 90 pounds. He's married. Both he and his wife are obviously eating very well. And he comes, I said, "Fred?" I mean, barely recognizable.
Mark: Maybe the Lord healed him. You asked Him to.
Candy: Well, he came to me and he said, "I want you to know that I have given my heart to Christ." He said, "I have come back to this bridge to apologize to you for all the lies that I told you." He said, "I lied to you every week, over and over." And he said, "You believed me so innocently." And he said, "I would lie in the bed at night and remember the lies and how you believed me and how you loved me." And he said, "Finally, one night I had to get out of my bed and get down on my knees and give my heart to Christ." He said, "I'm working at a church up here in White House, Tennessee. I've gotten married. I'm doing great. I'm living for the Lord, but I needed to come back and apologize."
So you know what? God used my naivety. He did. He used it.
Mark: Ain't that great.
Candy: God's so good. He's so smart.
Mark: He's trustworthy.
Andrew: Yeah, His ability to redeem the things that we stick our-
Candy: My mother used to say, "Oh, the Lord works in mischievous ways."
Mark: Love that, the Lord works in mischievous ways.
Andrew: Fred is an example.
Mark: I love that, that's the truth.
Candy: Yeah, it is. He'll use it all.
Andrew: Yeah, what do you think, I mean like with stories like that, and I think about how many experiences you must have in that brain of yours, just stories of people from Under The Bridge, what do you feel like if you had to summarize it, which I don't do well, if you had to summarize it to like, what have you learned? What is one thing you've learned? It could be about God or it could be about yourself or it could be just about humanity.
Candy: Okay, so there are so many struggles. I struggle to continually get food. I struggle to get resources. I'm struggling to get volunteers, and it's like this constant struggle. So when I tell you that we're faith-based, we are literally faith-based, okay? So it's faith.
Mark: Week to week?
Candy: Week to week, sometimes, not all the time.
But what I have learned is that faith in every situation works by love. I have learned to love. I've learned to get outside of myself and to care and love other people. And so faith worketh by love. As long as I keep loving God, as long as I keep loving the homeless, then it works.
“Faith in every situation works by love.”
Mark: Love God and love each other.
Candy: Yeah, somebody should write a song about that.
Mark: Really.
Andrew: Yeah, I mean, literally Jesus's words, love God, love one another, everything hinges on these two phrases.
Mark: Everything hinges on that.
Candy: Yeah.
Mark: He deduced the whole Old Testament down to a bumper sticker. Didn't he?
Candy: And only Mark Lowry can figure that out.
Andrew: I know, wow.
Mark: Now you're saying, I'm gonna talk, you eat. I wanna see you actually take a bite.
Candy: Okay, I'm gonna eat.
Mark: Okay, your mama passed, which who would've ever thought that she would pass before your daddy?
Candy: I can't believe it.
Andrew: And how old was she?
Candy: My mother was 77, and she died of brain cancer. And so not sure you know that my mother was one of the Happy Goodman Family.
Andrew: Yes, I do.
Candy: And so she sang gospel music her whole life. But my mother was raised in just abstract poverty, okay? My mother had crooked toes. Where our toes grow outwardly, hers were crooked.
Andrew: Seriously?
Candy: Yeah, because they didn't have money to buy shoes that fit her. And so she would have to wear-
Mark: Oh my God.
Andrew: So it shaped her feet.
Candy: It shaped her feet. It really did.
Mark: How awful.
Candy: And before my mom passed away, we had decided before she went in the hospice facility that we would have Thanksgiving. It wasn't really Thanksgiving, but all the kids and grandkids, and we had turkey and dressing and stuff, and she got tired really quickly. So I took her into the next room and laid her out, and we could hear the sound of the children and the grandchildren and everybody laughing in the other room. And I said, "Mom, can you believe how blessed you are?" 'Cause I was looking at her crooked toes, she's laid out there, and I said, "You were without shoes that fit your feet, and look at all the beautiful things around you and your family in the next room serving the Lord, and we have a happy family." And she said, "Do you know why that is?" And I said, "Well, no, I really don't." She said, "Because my favorite scripture is delight thyself in the Lord and He will give you the desires of your heart." And she said, I guess she was trying to leave me little nuggets before she passed on. And she said, "I have never allowed my relationship with Christ to be a ritual or a drudgery, but I have worked at delighting myself in the Lord and He has given me the desires of my heart." My mama.
Andrew: You ever think about this, your mama in 50 years, in 40 years, whatever, there will be people who are your mother who discovered what it was to delight in the Lord after being in abject poverty through The Bridge.
Candy: Oh, wow, thank you.
Andrew: There will be people that are her with family around them that may have not had that opportunity without that intervening.
Mark: Oh, yeah, it's gonna be amazing when we get home, I mean really to see how big your crown is. You're gonna need a neck brace.
Andrew: When you come visit us-
Mark: You're gonna need a neck brace to hold that crown up.
Candy: You guys, no.
Mark: But you know what? My mother used to always say, she'd love to say, "When I get to heaven and the Lord gives me a crown, I'm gonna lay it at His feet." And I always thought that was so rude. I mean, you go to a party and they hand you a party hat and you throw it at his, but of course we will. Can you imagine? And the people that will come up to you and me and you. And will say, "I'm here because of you."
Candy: Because of you.
Mark: "Because you told me about Jesus." Gosh, will that not be the ultimate?
Candy: Yeah, okay, and so "Mary Did You Know," the song, "Mary Did You Know"-
Andrew: Huh?
Mark: Never heard of it.
Candy: Tells the gospel to a world that would otherwise not hear the gospel except through a Christmas song. And I'm telling you, it is the deity of Christ, it is His birth, I mean-
Mark: It's the whole picture.
Candy: It is the whole picture. And it's on the lips of secular singers, country music artists, gospel, all around the world.
Andrew: The Braxton family.
Candy: And so people learn the gospel through "Mary Did You Know," it's mind boggling.
Mark: Well, that's something. You know what? I asked the Lord, "Let me do something that outlives me," when I was 11.
Candy: Did you really?
Andrew: And now Dinner Conversations.
Mark: And now we got Dinner Conversations and "Mary Did you Know."
Candy: Yeah, and "Mary Did You Know."
Mark: No, and I always said I'd take the crossover. I said I'd gladly cross over if I could take the cross over. And I don't know where I heard that, but I clinged to that when I was a kid.
And when People Magazine asked me, when they interviewed me, I was interviewed by People Magazine back in the day when I was something. And they said, "Would you want to?" I said, "I'll cross over if I can take the crossover," but I didn't do it to be spiritual. I don't ever think of myself as that pious. I just think, God, can you imagine going anywhere without Him? You were raised in it. I was raised in it. You were raised in it. And yet God has led you to a crowd of people you definitely were never raised around.
Candy: No, never.
Mark: Were you scared at first of them?
Candy: Oh yeah, I really was. And so I talked to a, in the early days, I talked to the police chief and I said, "Do you think you might send officers down?" And he said, "What you don't realize," he said, "I hear the homeless people talk about you on the streets." And he said, "Your biggest protectors are right there in that audience." And now 14 years later, I have come to know that. I've been Under The Bridge for 14 years. And those people-
Mark: They love you.
Candy: Yeah, they have-
Andrew: And they're seeing your heart. Your motivation is pure.
Candy: They have accepted me into their family, into their subculture, and that's a great honor. That's something I don't take for granted.
Mark: Now, have some of them literally been under a, do they live under this bridge too? I mean, I know this sounds crazy, but I mean, do all of them wanna be out there? Do they really wanna be out there?
Candy: Yeah, yeah, yeah, they do.
Mark: Okay.
Candy: So I was under a different bridge this past Saturday morning just passing out. I like to go in homeless camps and stuff. And so there is a man there that is homeless. His name is Aaron. And he is the "mayor" of Tent City.
Andrew: Sure.
Mark: Of the homeless city.
Candy: Of the homeless city. And he said, "I could get out of here." He said, "But I'm gonna stay here and lead these people out." So that's just their-
Andrew: He has a mission in there-
Mark: Wow, cool.
Candy: He has a mission. So homelessness, I'm sure you've been in the homeless missions and whatnot you said, but you realize that to get a driver's license or to get ID, you have to have a physical address.
Andrew: Residence, yeah.
Candy: Yes, and if you don't have a physical residence, you can't get a government issued card. So then there's this cycle, because then if you don't have a card, you can't get a job to get money, to get housing, see.
Mark: Right.
Andrew: It's like almost the endless circle.
Candy: Yeah, it just is a terrible cycle. Did you know that 100 people a day are moving into Nashville? Nashville is the largest growing city in the United States right now.
Mark: Are you serious?
Candy: Yeah.
Andrew: Does that also up the percentage of-
Candy: The cost of living, but also-
Andrew: Okay, oh, okay, okay.
Candy: But also the Section 8 housing where they were living-
Andrew: Sure.
Candy: Is now being torn down for all the great-
Andrew: I never thought about that.
Candy: Condominiums and things like that. And what used to be the slums is now the cool place to live, right? And so it's moving the homeless people either out of the city limits are out into their cars and in tents under the bridge, see.
Andrew: It’s so nuanced. I mean, I remember picking up a woman in a parking lot. She had all her belongings with her and stuff, to somewhere down the street. And I said, "Sure, absolutely." So we got to talking. It seemed like she was an older woman. I thought she was probably in her 70s, but come to find out, I think she was in her late 40s and had not taken a shower in a while, stuff. Her name was Ellie. And I remember asking her, "Do you have family? Do you have someone that you speak to that could help you find a place to sleep, shelter, anything like that?` And she was not angry or anything at all, but was not interested at all.
And we began to talk more just about her story, 'cause I think my first go-to is how can I fix this situation?
Candy: Right.
Andrew: And that's not always the first entry point, is it? Like maybe I just needed to talk to her.
Candy: And so that is a real hindrance with people getting involved because they get involved and they feel like your problems are so big, I can't fix it. It's not up to us to fix it.
What did Jesus Christ say? When John the Baptist sent his disciples to Jesus and they said, "Are you the one or do we look for another?" And Jesus said, "You go back and tell John that the lame walk, the dead are raised, the blind see, and what? The poor have the gospel preached to them."
A lot of us think, oh, we need to give them money. We need to fix their housing situation. The gospel, one day I was praying, I love the homeless people so much. I'm down praying one day and I'm weeping. And I said, "God, I love these people so much. I love them so much, I would die for them. I love them so much I would die for them. I would die for them." And instantly, Jesus snapped me out of it. And He said, "You don't have to die for them. I already did."
Andrew: Just sharing His-
Candy: Do what you can. Just do what you can, share Jesus.
Mark: Better than doing nothing.
Candy: That's right.
Andrew: And making strides to help restore people back into jobs, et cetera, is not a bad thing. without a point, the foundation of it all has to be Jesus. I mean, Jesus has to be the foundation of it, right?
“Jesus has to be the foundation.”
Candy: It does. It does. It really does.
Mark: Amen, are we done?
Andrew: Shall we sing?
Mark: I think we're done.
Andrew: I think we are done.
Candy: Good.
Andrew: That's usually the cut.
Mark: If you don't wanna do-
Candy: Hallelujah.
Mark: Thank you for watching Dinner Conversations. Don't forget to subscribe, and then ring that bell and get all notifications.
Andrew: And don't forget to like us or dislike us. Don't do that. Leave comments, talk about what's resonating in your life from these conversations, and join us next time for Dinner Conversations with--
Mark: Mark Lowry.
Andrew: And Andrew Greer.
Mark: Turning the light on.
Andrew: One question at a time.
Mark: Dinner Conversations is brought to you by Food for the Hungry, an incredible relief and community development organization, serving those with physical and spiritual needs around the world for 50 years this year.
Andrew: Help us as we help our friends at Food for the Hungry save thousands of lives and Ethiopia today by considering a generous gift.
Mark: A gift that will be matched 22 times.
Andrew: Your one-time gift will make an eternal difference. So visit fh.org/dinner to give now.
Raising Teens featuring Leigh Nash
Grammy-nominated singer-songwriter and frontwoman of the platinum-selling modern pop band, Sixpence None the Richer, Leigh Nash gives us the scoop on what it's like raising her teenager in the 21st century. Plus, Caroline Breen, daughter of Point of Grace's Shelley Breen, turns the table to share what it's like being a teenager in the 21st century. No matter your age, pull up a chair and learn something new with us.
Grammy-nominated singer-songwriter and frontwoman of the platinum-selling modern pop band, Sixpence None the Richer, Leigh Nash gives us the scoop on what it's like raising her teenager in the 21st century. Plus, Caroline Breen, daughter of Point of Grace's Shelley Breen, turns the table to share what it's like being a teenager in the 21st century. No matter your age, pull up a chair and learn something new with us.
Transcript
Mark: Dinner Conversations is brought to you by Food for the Hungry, an incredible relief and community development organization serving those with physical and spiritual needs around the world for 50 years this year.
Andrew: Help us as we help our friends at Food for the Hungry save thousands of lives in Ethiopia today by considering a generous gift.
Mark: A gift that will be matched 22 times.
Andrew: Your one-time gift will make an eternal difference. So visit fh.org/dinner to give now.
Mark: Well, we had a fabulous conversation with Leigh Nash about raising teenagers. Now you might know her from Sixpence None the Richer.
Kiss me
But she's also got kids.
Andrew: One.
Mark: Well, she's got one kid.
Andrew: So we should call it raising a teenager.
Mark: So, yeah,
Andrew: But, absolutely. I also had a great conversation. Leigh talked about what it is to raise children as they're coming up through their teen years, gave us the perspective of a parent. But I sat down with Caroline Breen. Of course, we film right here in David and Shelley Breen's house. Caroline is their daughter, who just graduated from high school, 18-years-old. And so we talked to her about what is it like to be a teenager in relationship with her parents? So it's a really cool episode, and Leigh is hilarious.
Mark: She is hilarious. And there's one seat left at this table, and it's yours. So let's join the conversation.
Leigh: You have rice on your nose. What kinda beast would I be if I didn't tell you?
Mark: You're a good friend.
Leigh: I am.
Andrew: Yeah. We're from Texas.
Mark: Oh, no. All three of us?
Andrew: Yes.
Mark: New Braunfels.
Leigh: New Braunfels.
Mark: I spent so many happy, happy childhood summers.
Andrew: With the rich kids.
Mark: No, well.
Leigh: I take that back.
Mark: Maybe.
Leigh: I've got a big chip on my shoulder.
Mark: You do?
Leigh: I'm working on it.
Mark: Oh. 'Cause I didn't know that, I was little. So we'd go there, and it was an old wood shack house that my dad got on this Comal River, I guess before the rich kids moved in. And we would float around there, and you'd get up and walk across the street, and you start back where you left, just do a circle.
Andrew: On the river?
Mark: Yes.
Andrew: The river was a circle?
Mark: It was a horseshoe. And you would cross the street, and you'd do it for another hour and a half.
Leigh: It's like a lazy river.
Mark: It is like a Huck Finn novel.
Leigh: The Comal, I believe, is the shortest river in the world.
Mark: He didn't write any novels, did he?
Leigh: Starts and stops in the same town.
Andrew: Really?
Leigh: Yeah. And it's really...
Mark: I interrupted you, what?
Leigh: Oh, it's okay.
Mark: No, say that again.
Leigh: I'm used to it. The Comal River is the shortest river in the world. I believe that that's still true.
Mark: I think you're right.
Leigh: 'Cause then nothing gets shorter, right? It just is or it isn't.
Andrew: True. Yeah.
Leigh: Maybe one just got shorter, so I don't know. But, yeah, I think it's the shortest.
Mark: So you started in New Braunfels? You were born there?
Leigh: I was born in Houston, but then raised in New Braunfels.
Mark: I was born in Houston.
Leigh: Were you really?
Mark: Still live there.
Leigh: And then where did you grow up?
Mark: Houston.
Leigh: And you still live there?
Andrew: Wait, we know about him. What was your growing up experience?
Leigh: I grew up in a Southern Baptist church. It was really a great church. It really was. My mom is a very spiritual woman. She's my hero. She's awesome. And my dad was also awesome. He passed away 12 years ago at 59. He was really young. But man, he just kept us spinning my whole childhood. He kept things very interesting and pretty traumatic, and my mom just kind of held the fort down. So of course, she's my hero.
Andrew: Sure.
Leigh: And as I go through therapy though, as an adult, the therapists are like, "Let's look at your mom a little better. Are you sure that she's the hero in this picture?"
Andrew: Yeah.
Leigh: You're fired.
Andrew: We learn more about our parents. As we get older, we begin to filter 'em through an adult perspective.
Leigh: Right.
Andrew: Though it takes like a little hump, I feel like, to get over what we idolize about our parents to then not idolize 'em, but once we do, they're more human, and don't you think they're more beautiful?
Mark: And that may be why the teen years you go crazy, 'cause you start realizing they're a freak just like you.
Leigh: Right. It's gotta be alarming.
Mark: Maybe that's it.
Andrew: When you were growing up, did you go, "My dad is keeping us spinning and interesting," or did you not really see it that way?
Leigh: I was reading about myself last night. I looked something up where you can put in your time of birth and your month of birth, or your birthday, it'll give you an alarming amount of information about yourself, and I found it to be really accurate.
And I was playing peacemaker, and I know that's a really common family of origin thing that can happen. I have one older sister that's two years older, but I was the peacemaker. So I was aware that, yeah, my dad was definitely making things really tough on my mom and therefore on us, but I was trying to protect her, trying to protect my sister, even trying to protect my dad to a certain extent, take care of everybody.
So, then you don't necessarily get parented certain ways. I'm just learning my sister and I were not parented to be respectful of our dad 'cause he wasn't being worthy of respect.
Andrew: Respectful of himself maybe?
Leigh: Well, yeah, he was being like an older brother.
Andrew: Sure.
Leigh: So now we have a lot of leftover baggage from that. But I just kind of learned that recently with my therapist. He just said, "You were not parented to be respectful, so you're nasty to your husband."
Mark: Oh really?
Andrew: Interesting.
Leigh: And so now I'm like really trying to be aware of that and show respect and also communicate with him, "Hey, this is not really, I mean, it's my fault, but-
Andrew: But it's not natural.
Leigh: "Help me work on this." Yeah.
Andrew: So he's championing that counseling?
Leigh: Yeah, I think so.
Mark: How's that going?
Leigh: The counseling?
Mark: No, how's it going? You say your husband is helping you.
Leigh: I think it's going way better.
Mark: There you go.
Leigh: He's dealing with his own stuff. He lost his father a year ago, so he is in deep grief right now. So I know I'm bringing up all kinds of stuff at this table, but it's an interesting time for all of us in the household, my son, my husband, and myself, to work on ourselves and to not repeat history, for him to not hold on to not letting go, which is what my husband's really good at. He lets go. I mean, he doesn't let go. So I'm trying to help him work through that, and at the same time, I'm trying to show my son, model good behavior, like a good, respectful treatment of the man of the household, so that when he grows up, he is not used to a woman saying, ...
Andrew: Diminishing him or…
Leigh: Every five seconds. Yeah. And I'm, I keep him laughing. I'm not an abusive wife.
Mark: You do?
Leigh: Yes. I'm very funny.
Mark: So you're funny when you chew him out.
Leigh: I'll do it with humor, and that's the same way it is in my sister's family, not to throw her under the bus.
Mark: Right.
Leigh: But this summer, I just got back from Texas, and I gently brought to her attention, "Hey, we're both stuck in a family of origin situation, so let's just help each other break out of it a little bit."
Andrew: Yeah. So there's a little bite to your humor.
Mark: How did she receive that?
Leigh: A lot of bite.
Andrew: Yeah.
Leigh: She was wonderful about it 'cause the way, I mean, I have to say because of the way I brought it up.
Mark: But seriously, it is the way you bring these things up, which matters.
Andrew: How?
Mark: When you bring them up to the sister, and you're not condemning her, and you're not accusing her. You're saying, "Hey, we're in this together."
Andrew: Yeah.
Leigh: Yeah.
Mark: And I've just learned this.
Leigh: I definitely said, "I just realized it about myself, so I wonder if that might be something that's happening here too." So instead of saying, "I noticed that you."
Andrew: Or this is what I saw about you, instead of here's what I've discovered about me.
Leigh: Not at all.
Andrew: Yeah. It's interesting, too, that for your son to be in a household with you and your husband, like he's seeing examples of people who are not always perfect, who are not always making all the right decisions, who are not always being married well, or parenting well, but are wanting to continue to be aware, self-aware.
Leigh: Aware.
Andrew: I mean, my dad was a therapist, so I think I got a little leg up as far as an encouragement to be self-aware, even at a younger age. But that's the most difficult thing, right? Is because if you become self-aware- I was talking to someone about this the other day. One, you have to be a critical thinker. You have to begin to want to actually think about things on a deeper level than just existing.
Leigh: Absolutely.
Andrew: Then that creates self-awareness. But then with that, that causes me to then be accountable to life.
Leigh: Right.
Andrew: That's not what most of us want. I don't want- That's not my favorite thing, to be accountable
Mark: It's work.
Andrew: Right.
Leigh: Yes. It is so much work. And I am very grateful though, for whatever reason, part of what, in my toolbox, when I was born, I was given a lot of natural ability to be vulnerable. So that's given me, I think, a lot of shortcuts into wanting something deeper because I'm aware like, oh my gosh, I'm- Even to a fault, like I'm trash.
Andrew: Oh, right. Sure.
Leigh: And I know there's a difference between vulnerability and just having poor self-esteem.
“There’s a difference between vulnerability and just having poor self-esteem.”
Andrew: Yeah. But you could be critical of yourself before...
Mark: I mean, we've all said that to ourselves.
Leigh: Sure. Of course. And sometimes the things that I've done have been trashy things. But there's self-care that you've gotta go in there, and books, authors have helped me. I've had teachers along the way, one of them being my mom, that have helped me kinda come a little closer to full circle. And as a parent, I think that vulnerability has been one of my best tools so far, just not even pretending for a second to be perfect. 'Cause my son is the opposite of my husband and I, of his dad, 'cause my husband is not Henry's dad. Henry's dad, his name is Mark. My husband's name is Steven if that helps in the conversation. But Mark and I are great friends. He's one of my best friends and...
Andrew: Henry's dad?
Leigh: Right. And so that's a huge blessing and something we've worked on. It's something that didn't just come out of nowhere. But none of us are like Henry. Henry is very stoic and serious, and he's really into languages. He's into learning Russian and Spanish, and he's just a different kind of person. And it's not that he's not creative, he's just not driven by the same things we are. And so I've said to him before, many times, "Think about that. You were given parents, you were given this structure that's opposite of who you are. Like what do you think that means God has for you or wants you to learn in life? You're in a bank with a bunch of clowns."
I mean, that just came off the top of my head.
Mark: That's really funny and true probably. He might feel that way.
Leigh: I think he does. And I've said before, "I'm sorry. There's nothing I can do about my personality other than be really aware of myself and try as hard as I can to be aware of your needs."
Andrew: Yeah.
Leigh: "And be sensitive and be vulnerable." Yeah.
Andrew: But I don't think any of us grew up wanting our parents to be, like I now look- The differences between my parents and me are what actually bond us together still to this day.
“The differences between my parents and me are what actually bond us together still to this day.”
Leigh: That's wonderful to know.
Andrew: I mean, I don't have children, so I can't speak into this from that personal experience, but being a child of parents who I still am in a relationship with, I think y'all will be such great friends.
Leigh: That's wonderful. I hope so. He's my favorite person in the whole world.
Andrew: You just wanna be his favorite person.
Leigh: Yeah, and that's not the case.
Mark: You know what, I'm sure he does. What's not to adore about you? You seem lovely.
Leigh: I agree with you.
Mark: I know.
Leigh: But I know he appreciates my color, and I do. It's not his thing.
Mark: The way you see things.
Leigh: Yeah. But I know that he does, he appreciates it, and I know he appreciates his stepdad. I know he loves his dad. They're going to Iceland the day after tomorrow, their first like dude trip.
Andrew: Cool.
Mark: Is his dad vulnerable? Is your husband vulnerable?
Leigh: He really is.
Mark: You made me think of something 'cause I don't remember my dad saying I'm sorry but one time to me when he thought I said S-H-I-T.
Leigh: Oh, dear.
Mark: But I didn't.
Andrew: But you didn't?
Mark: I was four. I will never forget it. I said shoot, and he thought it and he popped my face.
Leigh: Oh.
Andrew: Really?
Mark: And said, "We don't say that word." And I said, "I didn't." And he apologized.
Leigh: He apologized.
Andrew: But that's interesting 'cause that's an apology based on your behavior rather- Well, what I mean, that's kind of convoluted, right?
Mark: That's the only one I remember. I was four.
Andrew: Yeah. Conversely, I remember my dad, I remember that being very important because I'm very stubborn and I don't like to be wrong, and so it has given me a leg up that my dad apologized for things growing up.
Leigh: Right.
Andrew: In real time.
Mark: I think that's the most powerful thing a father could do is to show vulnerability to their child. Oh my gosh.
I was at a church one time, years ago, and I saw a poster that kind of reminds me of that. He said, "The greatest gift a father can give to their child is to love their mother."
Leigh: Oh.
Mark: Which I thought was so powerful.
Leigh: Very powerful.
Mark: But also, that whole thing of, the fact that I remember the one time, my gosh, what an impact that would have on children
Leigh: I know. And you were only four.
Andrew: Do you think about that as a parent? Like do you wonder sometimes when y'all have some kind of thing?
Leigh: Shake up?
Mark: Yeah, you're like, what do y'all shake up over?
Leigh: Well, I'm trying to think of the last time, if it's something I can even talk about. Things got pretty real in Texas a few times, but yeah, I had to apologize to him. I mean, sometimes I'll get a little too rough 'cause I'm really comfortable saying, "Henry Nash" and my tone is just, it's just too abrasive, and I'm not really sure where that comes from, but it's like, there will be no, be yes. You're gonna toe the line, you're gonna do what I say, and sometimes I'm just too harsh, and my mom brought that to my attention, so I apologized.
Mark: Yeah. And when he was four, you probably had to do that, but now you're having to change your way of parenting too, right? As they age.
Leigh: Very much. Give space, but make sure they know that you're right there. And I've only got the one child, so it's been hard for me to not be a helicopter parent. And so I'm learning to try to back off a little bit and also just make sure that he knows that I'm right there.
Andrew: Sure.
Leigh: And I've gotta rely on God to help guide me through this.
Mark: Oh yeah.
Leigh: 'Cause I've never parented before. I've never had a son. I didn't have a brother, other than my dad who was kind of a brother. Thanks, dad. Daddy brother, brother daddy.
Mark: I want you to meet my daddy brother.
Leigh: Come say hello to my daddy brother.
Andrew: That's very New Braunfels, it feels like.
Food for the Hungry Sponsorship Message
Mark: You can help save thousands of lives by giving a generous gift to Food for the Hungry today.
Andrew: In the rural Dera district of Ethiopia, families are experiencing high death rates in children under five due to preventable water-related diseases. They simply don't have access to clean water sources or the infrastructure to practice good health and hygiene.
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Mark: Give generously today at fh.org/dinner. We're so excited that you'll be giving that we wanna give something to you. We have several add-ons, we call them, where we will be maybe making a special phone call to a friend of yours, a video.
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Andrew: All right. So Caroline Breen, which we're on set of Dinner Conversations
Caroline: Yes.
Andrew: Because that's your home.
Caroline: Yeah, it is. My room is right down there.
Andrew: All right. That's right. I remember the first day that we ever filmed any episodes of Season One, and I think you were sick that day from school, right?
Caroline: I was. I was here that whole week.
Andrew: Did we make you sick?
Caroline: No. But I remember someone came over and I was like, "What is that?" Cause it was really loud.
Andrew: Chonda Pierce.
But you were in middle school, I think, so if you think about it, you've grown up in front of our eyes. Here you are, you're 18, you're an adult. Okay. So tell me something. What year were you born?
Caroline: 2002.
Andrew: Okay. So 2002, I mean, that's amazing to me 'cause I was in college in 2002. But what I think about is you are, I mean, you guys that are becoming adults now, that're starting to go to college, and even get into the workforce are the first generation that you grew up in the 21st century. Have you thought about that before?
Caroline: Yes. A lot. Yeah. The whole social media.
Andrew: Right.
Caroline: Yeah.
Andrew: Which I think a lot of people 'cause your generation has a lot of nicknames right now. I don't know what they'll finally land on, Gen Z or whatever, but iGen is one of 'em right? Like an iPhone.
Caroline: I haven't heard of that. I've only heard of Gen Z.
Andrew: Oh really? Well, iGen I think is another name for Gen Z. Chris doesn't know either. But what do you think about that? Like a lot of people from a cultural perspective, just like a broad stroke, will look at your generation and just think constant selfies, Snapchat, obsessed with themselves. How do you see your generation?
Caroline: I see that because a lot of like social media, like TikTok and stuff, you're really trying to be creative and showcase your talents or what you're good at to get likes and followers and comments and stuff.
But I also kind of see it as like, we're creative in a way, and we're really advanced with technology where we know a lot of things. Like, there are kids now who can pick up an iPad and know how to turn it on, and there are some adults who don't even know how to do that.
Andrew: Sure.
Caroline: So, it's kind of, there's good and bad to it. It depends how you look at it.
Andrew: Well, and with everything, it's about perspective. I see the good of it, like I've always loved being around generations. Now that I'm getting older I like being around younger generations 'cause I'm always learning something from them.
I think that when we talk about generations, and my parents taught me this a long time ago, they really taught us to respect older generations when they were still younger and we were real little, but they also had people that were younger than them over. So we really learned how to interact with the different generations.
Do you feel like it's important that we have relationships that cross generations?
Caroline: Yes, because for me, when I'm applying for a job or something, I think it's really important to be able to have those conversations with people older, or like, if you go into a field with like teaching or anything, like also reaching out to younger generations and being able to make those connections with people I feel like is really important, being able to have a conversation with people who are older than you.
Andrew: So tell me this, do you feel like sometimes there's this perspective of y'all's generation going to hell in handbasket kind of thing? Is that your perspective?
Caroline: Like what do you mean?
Andrew: Like that it's all hopeless. There's nothing positive about young people today.
Caroline: I don't really see that. I think, like I said before, like there are so many of my friends who are so knowledgeable and like, are gonna do so many amazing things. And of course, there are some people who will sit on their phone 24/7 and do nothing, but I feel like that's kind of how it's been with other generations too. Like it kind of depends on how you're gonna live. Like are you gonna go out and do something great and pursue what you're passionate about, or are you just gonna not pursue it, kind of do nothing? So I guess it's kind of the same as always. It's just how you look at it and how you handle it.
Andrew: Absolutely. I heard someone the other day too talking about millennials, which is my generation, though I'm an old millennial, and they were saying how millennials kinda got a bad rap too about being real self-obsessed, but he said, "Actually, I see another perspective because millennials were the first generation," and I think this carries into your generation too, "where they were actually interested in what they do day to day for their bread and butter mattering, making a difference in the world around them." So I see that in your generation. I don't think you're just concerned with yourself. You're very passionate and you're willing to pursue that passion, but you're also concerned about how it connects with the world around you. If there's one difference you can make in the world through your life, what would you hope that would be?
Caroline: I'm thinking about maybe going into- This is like one of the fields that I might wanna go into, possibly studying political science and stuff because I feel like that whole news media is very, I don't know, I feel like it's very twisted right now, and I think it'll be really interesting to work in that field and be able to deliver to audiences like the whole truth and really investigate certain situations and just be able to give like an honest take on things because right now, our country, it's kind of crazy.
Andrew: Let's talk about your parents.
Caroline: Okay.
Andrew: All right. So let's talk about David and Shelley.
Caroline: Okay.
Andrew: Which we know, of course, your mom's been on our show with her group Point of Grace, and your dad's worked in music for years, and so we've all kind of known each other. Of course, you've known him your whole life too. But what is your favorite part about your parents? What's your favorite thing?
Caroline: So, for my mom probably I've gotten a lot of opportunities, because she's in Point of Grace and stuff, when I was younger to go out and travel with her, so that was really fun. And just like watching her when I was really young and just getting to know her coworkers, Denise and Leigh, and their kids, and just being out with them, that was a really great way to grow up, and I have so many awesome memories from that time, so that's probably for my mom.
And for my dad, I don't know. I feel like he's just a really kind person, and he can tolerate, like, there are so many times when he'll come home from work with like stories, and me and my mom are like, "How do you tolerate that?" And he is just, he kind of lets it go. He doesn't really invest in drama I feel like, so that's something I look up to I guess.
Andrew: And hope to incorporate in your life. That would be good if a lot of us incorporated less drama in our life. Especially in 2021, right?
Caroline: Yes.
Andrew: We've had enough drama probably for all of our lifetimes.
Caroline: So true.
Andrew: One thing that I remember about my parents, and my dad especially, that really impacted me is that he would apologize. When he had sincerely done something wrong or made a mistake, he would come to me even when I was a kid and apologize, which to me expressed a certain humility, even though he was my elder, he was my parent, and I was- I believe in honoring my mother and father and respecting them, but it produced a different dynamic between us where I could really trust my dad because he was willing to take responsibility for what was his, and it made me wanna take responsibility for what was mine, instead of trying to skirt the truth.
What's a lesson that you feel like you've learned or what's a way? Do you have an example of something that you're like that made my dad or my mom a human to me in a good way?
Caroline: Probably just like the daily sacrifices that they make for me. Like just them even sending me to the school that I go to, which I know that's a really big financial sacrifice for them, and just them doing everything that they possibly can do for my needs and my interests. And when I was younger, taking me from piano lessons to sports practice, whatever sport I was playing at the time. Just all of those sacrifices that they made for me day to day. And my mom like cooking for me and stuff.
Andrew: Your mother is a good cook.
Caroline: Right.
Andrew: Do you think you'll miss some of those little things, like your mom's cooking and stuff when you go to college?
Caroline: Yes, but if COVID keeps up, I probably will be home.
Andrew: I don't know that they're hoping for that.
Caroline: Maybe. I dunno.
Andrew: Okay. Tell me, just from where you're sitting today, what is your hope for the world around you?
Caroline: Probably to become more unified and be able to have conversations with people who maybe don't agree with you. Because I know right now in the political and social climate that we're in, I think it's hard to be able to connect with people who maybe don't share the same viewpoints as you on major topics, whether it be religion or politics or anything like that. So probably just being able to really sit down with one another and talk it out, and it's okay to not agree, but still being open to having those conversations.
Andrew: How do you think your faith plays into that perspective?
Caroline: Probably just being able to, I don't know, like, love is like the greatest commandment and just being able to love your enemies. And there's this whole verse about like, love your enemies, pray for those who hurt you and like, love those who mistreat you, like all those different things.
Andrew: And it's been true forever. Right? I think it's always been countercultural, and even to some degree, not the most intuitive human thing to do, right? To love someone that hurts you.
Caroline: Yes.
Andrew: But what we're learning and seeing is it can be one of the most powerful things.
Caroline: It's true.
Andrew: Can't it? And you get to exercise that even with your friends.
Caroline: Yes.
Andrew: I'm sure you can think of someone who may have hurt you and someone who you've hurt, and to be able to exercise love in spite of that, could make the world a different place, huh?
Caroline: Yes. 100 percent.
Andrew: So you've obviously, in your friendships with your peers, and being over at your friend's houses, et cetera, you've seen their parents' relationships with them, and you have a relationship with your parents. How important is it that parents try to relate to their kids, not just as a disciplinarian, that's important too, but as someone who's also a guide, a mentor, and in some ways also a friend?
Caroline: I think it's important to have a really good relationship like from the parent's perspective with your kid, but not overly protective, if that makes sense. Because I've seen instances where when the parent gives the child more freedom then they will go off and do crazy things, but I've also seen parents that, I don't know, I've seen it from both sides. Like if a parent is really overprotective, you have some kids, 50 percent of them will be scared outta their mind and don't wanna do anything crazy to upset the parent, but then you have the other 50 percent that wanna do the total opposite of what their parents say because it's so exhausting and they just want to rebel, I guess you could say.
Andrew: It's like what I hear you saying is, parents trust your kids before you distrust them, maybe?
Caroline: Yes.
Andrew: And that's harder said than done. If I'm a parent and I see all that's going on around the world, and I see some of my kids' friends too, and I'm like, who's influencing her, who's she buying into, that kind of thing, it can be real hard. But don't you think parents trusting kids first gives them a foundation of kind of security and confidence to make potentially good decisions?
Caroline: Yes. And if something doesn't go well, that's when you can learn that lesson of, okay, this was wrong, I'm not gonna do it again or else there will be consequences, but also I have the freedom to do what I want and potentially make right decisions without feeling like weighed down with rules and restrictions and pressure.
Andrew: I was talking to my parents more recently, 'cause I have two older brothers, so there's three of us, and we all really like hanging out with my parents to this day as adults. And I have other friends who I grew up with, who they don't have that kind of kinship with their parents. And so I asked my parents, I said, "Is there something you did in parenting that you felt like really developed that?" And they're very kind of, they're very observant people but pretty humble, and they were just like, "Y'all just turned out." And I was like, "Well, you had to have influenced us somehow. We definitely grew up in your household." They were present. And my dad said something that I thought was interesting and is reiterating some of what you're saying. He said, "We decided very early on in our parenting journey that you guys would have the freedom to fail and succeed. And those failures were your failures and the successes were your successes. So when you divinely screwed up on something, you had a safe place at home to come land and to face those consequences and to talk about it and to hurt and to grieve those things. And sure we might be," I don't even know if they used the word disappointed, "but we would walk in that journey of frustration and consequences with you. At the same time, when you succeeded, when you did something really fantastic, that was your success. We celebrate alongside you, but we did not take that for you."
Caroline: Yeah.
Andrew: So we all have seen parents who are so integrated in unhealthy ways in their children's lives, that their children are unable to develop into their own people. So I would say seeing you and how you've been parented that largely you've been able to develop into your own person.
Caroline: Yes.
Andrew: For better, for worse.
Caroline: Yeah. I don't know.
Andrew: Well, yeah, that's right. The verdict is still out. Perfect.
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Andrew: Yeah, it's taking an approach to the Bible from being just simply informational to really being invitational. So there's a lot of prompts in this Bible to journal alongside Scriptures. It gives you opportunity to pray certain Scriptures at different seasons of your life, to meditate on the Scripture. There's beautiful artwork in here that's really cool cause it's not just like some kind of Sunday school artwork. They're using like da Vinci and beautiful pieces of classic art to really just get us to imagine, to be able to use all of our senses as we enter into Scripture, so that we really step into the story of Scripture, not just see it as words on a page but as part of a living, breathing active part of our lives. And you know what? I asked my brother one time, who's a pastor, I said, "Why is the Bible so important?" And he said exactly what you said a second ago, because it is the greatest written revelation of who God is. And so it gives us the opportunity to know God but also to be a part of God's story. That's the Abide Bible.
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Andrew: I was thinking some about career, about Sixpence None the Richer, and when you and Matt Slocum, your partner, and you were around 14, 15, right? So you were around Henry's age, and I'm thinking about, even though...
Mark: Would you let him up and move away?
Andrew: Yeah, think about your lifestyles as 15-year-old.
Leigh: I would, if it were the same circumstances, because I didn't move away at that age, but my mom and dad did start letting me travel with Matt Slocum. We'd drive up to Dallas for the night and drive back. And Matt, at the time, he's probably gotten a little better, a little bit of a narcolept. So we'd be driving back and I would have to be ultra alert because the truck would start veering off and be like, "Dude, I gotta be at school in the morning." Please don't let me die right now. But they trusted Matt. Matt's wonderful and has always been a good brother type friend.
Mark: But I don't know if, this day and age, I would let my daughter go off with any adult man.
Andrew: That's an interesting one.
Leigh: Well, and Matt didn't ever seem like much of an adult, especially at that age. And it wasn't...
Mark: Well, that's even worse.
Leigh: But he just had a very responsible innocence about him. My mom knew his parents.
Andrew: Yeah.
Leigh: He just, he wasn't a typical teenager. He's five years older than me.
Mark: You didn't end up on forensic files, so that's good.
Leigh: No, I don't know how close though. He may have had intentions to murder me a few times. Maybe that's why he was pulling off the road. But no, I don't think so. He was very much a gentleman always. And we know he just was really into the band and motivated, and I think my family knew that if it wasn't music...
Andrew: What would it be that you would get your hands into?
Leigh: What's gonna happen to her?
Andrew: Yeah.
Mark: What's gonna happen to her.
Andrew: I mean, that's a good point though, seeing music as a direction that gave you outlets to express yourself, angst, emotions.
Mark: You could do comedy.
Leigh: Oh. I would've loved to be a comedian, but that has had to- I've sharpened my funny stick over the years on stage being really awkward and dealing with stage fright. That's made it funny.
Mark: Are you still doing concerts?
Leigh: Very much, all the time.
Andrew: Do you still experience stage fright?
Leigh: I do.
Andrew: After all these years?
Leigh: I have. That's why I'm in therapy.
Mark: Are you funny on stage?
Leigh: I believe so.
Mark: Do you take a band?
Leigh: I have been traveling with my husband, but the thing about him is he's a songwriter and he's become Mr. Big Britches. And it only happened in the last year and a half, and all of a sudden, he's Mr. "I write with Tom Douglas every week." So that hurt my feelings 'cause I thought Tom and I had something.
Andrew: And you've probably written with Tom before, haven't you?
Leigh: Twice. And it's like, she's just writing for herself. We're not writing any Miranda Lambert cuts.
But Steven, he's an amazing songwriter, and now he's starting to do artist stuff and he's incredible, and I don't wanna get in the way of that. So I'm gonna have to take someone else out. And I've got a guy that travels with Over the Rhine, and they're really busy, but when they're not busy, I'm gonna steal him.
Mark: Now, is he a guitar player?
Leigh: Oh, he's amazing.
Mark: So you just take a guitar player?
Leigh: Just me and a guitar player.
Andrew: Your voice.
Leigh: Yeah. I would love it to be. And so, and that's also helped me hone the humor craft a little bit and the banter between songs, and I do get the comment a lot like "I feel like I just got a comedy show and music and I cried, all in one ticket." And I was like, that's right. So when I don't hear that, I feel like I didn't do a good job.
Mark: It's like a rollercoaster where you take them here, you go up here. I've watched Gaither do it. I've watched other people do it, the masters.
Leigh: Right.
Mark: They'll take you on a ride.
Leigh: It's wonderful.
Andrew: Well, life's a ride, and the more life you experience, the more ride you're gonna offer other people. What did you learn that is now influencing how you raise a teenager?
Leigh: From all that I experienced, I think just how big life is, how big it can be, how much you can do, 'cause I've definitely, I got out of New Braunfels. I mean, I've seen the world and I've seen the kindness of people, and I'm really proud of Henry, that he's interested in languages, because that will open up your world quicker than I think anything else. And maybe it doesn't matter what I would love for him 'cause supposedly he's not mine, he's God’s, which I really, that takes my breath away.
Mark: I love that supposedly.
Leigh: Supposedly.
Mark: I love that.
Leigh: It definitely feels like he's mine, but I really try to like...
Mark: He's on loan. Don't you hate that?
Leigh: But I feel like what I learned is just how big the world can be and not to put people in boxes and just be in awe.
Leigh Nash singing “Kiss Me”
Kiss me, out of the bearded barley
Nightly, beside the green, green grass
Swing, swing, swing the spinning step
You wear those shoes and I will wear that dress
Oh, kiss me, beneath the milky twilight
Lead me out on the moonlit floor
Lift your open hand
Strike up the band and make the fireflies dance
Silver moon's sparkling
So kiss me
Kiss me, down by the broken tree house
Swing me, upon its hanging tire
Bring, bring, bring your flowered hat
We'll take the trail marked on your father's map
Oh, kiss me, beneath the milky twilight
Lead me out on the moonlit floor
Lift your open hand
Strike up the band and make the fireflies dance
Silver moon's sparkling
So kiss me
So kiss me, beneath the milky twilight
Lead me out on the moonlit floor
Lift your open hand
Strike up the band and make the fireflies dance
Silver moon's sparkling
So kiss me
Kiss me
Andrew: There's a mutual friend of ours, Andrew Osenga, and actually, we both listened to his interview with you on his podcast, which is great.
Leigh: I had such a good time talking to him.
Andrew: Yeah. He's such a tender spirit.
Mark: And he's a good interviewer.
Andrew: He is.
Leigh: He is.
Andrew: He doesn't go these places.
Leigh: He did a great job.
Andrew: But y'all were talking about worry, and I remember you said something in the context of raising kids, that that's enough to give you worried tears enough to make the world go around. But you said you were trying to learn not to worry. And worry seems like such an innate part of our humanity.
Leigh: Right.
Andrew: I don't even know what it means to learn not to worry. Like what is that exercise for you?
Leigh: Well, I wrote something on my husband's birthday card just a few days ago, he turned 40, and this is a Buddha quote, and I hope that's okay that I bring that up.
Andrew: Yeah.
Leigh: And I just happened to find it the night before in a book, but it said something and I wish I knew the exact quote, but maybe y'all can look it up later.
Andrew: We have it memorized.
Leigh: We have those abilities though.
Andrew: Did you find it in the Bible?
Leigh: It was a Buddha quote in the Bible. I think it's in Leviticus. But anyway.
But it talks about, and this does have to do with worry, that all the stuff's gonna happen. Loss, pain, passion, loss of passion, tragedy, all of it's gonna happen in your life. It's going to happen. There's nothing you can do, so you may as well take it, like be like the mighty oak and just be like a big tree. And yeah, you suffer it, but you also get to watch it all happen and you get to grow.
Think about a tree. A tree doesn't just stand still, it grows. And there's another- There was a movie that came out a couple years ago. I'll think of the title in a second. This beautiful movie, but there was a quote in it about how the tree bent but it still grew. And I thought that was also so sweet. And I know there's been so many...
Mark: Tree planted by the water, there's a scripture in Psalm about that too.
Leigh: You had to bring it back to the Bible, didn't you?
Mark: Or did I? I did. Of course.
Leigh: But the Bible is, I mean, it is the richest source.
Mark: Oh, absolutely.
Leigh: I mean, I know that God could have just put that Buddha quote down.
Andrew: Sure.
Leigh: And Steven appreciated it. It really meant a lot to him.
Andrew: Well.
Leigh: But does that make any sense?
Andrew: Yes.
Mark: Yes.
Leigh: I would not put a thing past God. And that's what makes me worry.
Mark: Yeah. I don't put anything past him.
Leigh: But I know that the strength, the net underneath, will be there.
Andrew: Yeah.
Leigh: And it's terrifying. And I've seen a lot of stuff.
Mark: So far so good.
Leigh: And he is precious.
Mark: He seems to be.
Leigh: He is. I mean, he's got a lot of rough edges, but who doesn't.
Mark: Three more years and you're done.
Leigh: Don't even start with me.
Andrew: He's in Russia. In three years, he's in Russia.
Mark: So as terrifying as it has been-
Leigh: Yeah. That he'd just leave.
Mark: You don't wanna-
Leigh: He just ran away.
Andrew: He's like, "I'm out of here"
Leigh: Thanks, guys.
Mark: Okay. As terrified- You talked about worry, right?
Leigh: Right.
Mark: So that will continue probably until you pass away?
Leigh: Your heart's outside your body for the rest of your life.
“Your heart’s outside your body for the rest of your life.”
Mark: 'Cause you're the center of this child. But yet you've let go. You've gotta let him go a little at a time, right?
Leigh: Right.
Mark: So how's that going?
Leigh: I always say when you become pregnant, you're not ready to have an infant. You have nine months to become ready to have an infant. So it's the same thing when you're raising a child. You're not ready when they're 10 or 15 to let 'em go, but maybe at 18.
Mark: What would you like that relationship to be like one day? I mean, when it finally is ready, I mean, it's done, when you're done. You'll never be done, but you know what I'm saying?
Andrew: When he's 30.
Leigh: Okay.
Mark: Yeah, what do you see when he is 30?
Leigh: I would just love him to be fulfilled in the way that he is meant to be filled, with whatever that is. Knowledge, wisdom, whatever I was able to impart, I would really love for him to have a healthy relationship, good friendships, healthy boundaries. Yeah. But he's his own man.
I don't know anybody like Henry. I don't know anybody like him.
Andrew: Isn't that cool?
Leigh: So it is cool, and that I'm gonna have to rely on God to let go because I don't know how, in this body, to do it. I don't know how. So Richard Rohr's gonna have to keep writing books.
Andrew: Yeah.
Leigh: And I'm gonna have to keep listening to him in my car.
Mark: Listen to that voice. There's something to that.
Andrew: To Richard Rohr's voice?
Mark: No, listen to the voice of God.
Leigh: Right.
Mark: Get quiet. I'm just literally learning this myself at 61. I've heard about it, but I've never actually done it until recently. And I think there's something to it.
Leigh: What, be quiet?
Mark: Be quiet and listen.
Someone asked Mother Teresa, "When you pray, what do you say?" She said, "Oh, I don't don't say anything. I listen." "Well, what does God say?" "He doesn't say anything. He listens." Now, that is a little odd for me.
Leigh: Isn't that amazing?
Mark: Yeah. But I think so far for me is I get quiet, but he's still talking, or something in my brain is still talking. And let those pictures pass in front of your eyes and say, "Okay, is this what you want me to do today, Lord? Is this thought of you? Is this...." 'Cause He said, "My sheep know my voice," and he said, "Call on me and I'll answer you." And so I'm learning to just literally do that and then be quiet and see what happens.
Andrew: I mean, if I think about my ultimate desire, it's just, like my constant prayer, is God will just not leave me, will just be like my companion. Yeah. I really want companion. Don't we all? That's why we get married, that's why we date, that's why we have best friends, is because we want someone just to be with us, and not ask a lot.
Leigh: Right. Yeah. I'm very moved by this conversation and also by what you both said, and I think I'm just getting to the point of being quiet enough and I love things turning on their end. Does that make sense? Like things you always thought meant one thing and then it flips.
I was singing a song that Matt Slocam, my partner in Sixpence, wrote, called "The Melody of You." And there's another song called "Breathe Your Name," and both of those songs recently, and I need to talk to him about it, but he's not gonna know. I mean, he wrote them.
Mark: Isn't that funny.
Leigh: "The Melody of You" is like a love letter to God, and then "Breathe Your Name," in the same sense, is sort of a love letter to God, or just you're in my head, I can feel you, you're steering everything. And as I've been singing those songs the last few months, it started to turn around, like what if this is also the way God loves us? Like what if that's how God felt about Matt? And maybe part of it's true, maybe not the whole song, but little pieces of it, just break my heart. When I think about- I always thought, okay, well, I was the voice. The lyrics and melody of you are you're the scent of an unfound bloom.
You are the scent of an unfound bloom, a simple tune
I only write variations to a drink that will knock me down on the floor, a key that will unlock the door, where I hear a voice sing familiar things and beckons me weave notes in between.
And I always thought, well, I'm the voice, but no, I think that it's so much deeper and think God, I don't know, he's...
Mark: He wants us to sing harmony with him.
“[God] wants us to sing harmony with him.”
Leigh: Yeah.
Mark: That's what I hear in that lyric.
Leigh: So much.
Mark: He invites us to join the song.
Leigh: Yeah.
Mark: That's beautiful.
Leigh: There's just so many layers to everything in life and what we're willing to look at and what we're willing to meditate on and be quiet enough to actually hear.
Andrew: If we are so layered and we're reflections of God, he must be layered too.
Leigh: Oh yeah.
Andrew: And surely that's not the worst thing in the world.
Leigh: No, that's the mystery that the longer we get, I guess, the pleasure of being here is the more that mystery maybe gets revealed, and it's stunning.
My grandmother is 96, and I just got to spend a month washing her clothes and changing her sheets.
Mark: In New Braunfels?
Leigh: And talking to her. And the last conversation we had-
Yeah, she lives in New Braunfels. She's in an assisted living place.
But I talked to her the night before I left, and she said, "I love you, and I pray for you everyday." And she said, "And all I can say is you're supposed to tell God what you need. Ask him for what he wants for you, and he's supposed to tell you." And that's all she said, that was all. And I have a feeling, I mean, I don't know, she doesn't understand why she's still here. So I'm gonna be at peace that she's at peace whenever she's taken. But it felt like maybe our last conversation. I'm gonna call her in a minute. It doesn't have to be.
Mark: Right.
Andrew: You could have the last one right here on camera.
Mark: Wow.
Leigh: Let's call her right now.
Mark: You are so funny.
Leigh: And just give her permission to die.
Mark: Her mansion is not ready.
Leigh: Oh, and this is fun. This is funny as all get out. Henry and I and she were in a room. My mom was talking to her brother on the phone. So my grandmother is now alive, she's got two kids left, one passed away a few years ago, but they were on the phone, and ma looked over and she goes, "Don't ever get old, honey. Don't ever get old." And I said, "Well, I don't wanna die young. Yeah, I'd kind of like to get old." And she said, "Henry doesn't want you to."
Mark: Henry doesn't want you to, that is hysterical.
Leigh: And I looked at Henry, and he was like-
Andrew: You should go on and lay down, right?
Mark: Thank you for watching Dinner Conversations. Don't forget to subscribe, and then ring that bell and get all notifications.
Andrew: And don't forget to like us or dislike us. Don't do that. Leave comments, talk about what's resonating in your life from these conversations, and join us next time for Dinner Conversations with--
Mark: Mark Lowry.
Andrew: And Andrew Greer.
Mark: Turning the light on.
Andrew: One question at a time.
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Birthing Hope featuring Angie & Todd Smith
Bestselling author Angie Smith digs deep to talk about learning to live and hope again after losing a child. Her husband Todd Smith, of vocal sensation group Selah, adds musical moments.
Bestselling author Angie Smith digs deep to talk about learning to live and hope again after losing a child. Her husband Todd Smith, of vocal sensation group Selah, adds musical moments.
Transcript
Mark: Dinner Conversations is brought to you by Food for the Hungry, an incredible relief and community development organization serving those with physical and spiritual needs around the world for 50 years this year.
Andrew: Help us as we help our friends at Food for the Hungry save thousands of lives in Ethiopia today by considering a generous gift.
Mark: A gift that will be matched 22 times.
Andrew: Your one-time gift will make an eternal difference. So visit fh.org/dinner to give now.
Mark: Man, we've had so much fun on this season of Dinner Conversations. Can you believe it is our seventh season?
Andrew: It's only four.
Mark: Oh, it's only four? It feels like seven. No, but the conversations. That's why I hope one day we will have a seventh season 'cause I know there'll be that many more conversations, and this was a good one.
Andrew: This was a good one. Todd Smith and Angie Smith. Of course, Angie Smith is a really popular Bible study writer, author, speaker, teacher. But really she came to be known because she began writing a blog after they lost one of their daughters after delivery. And Todd is in the incredible group Selah, which we know them, of course, great people, great music, and he's here to sing. So she's speaking, she's talking with us around the table, and he's adding some melody and verse to the story, and it's a really cool pairing.
Mark: And there's one seat left at the table, and it's yours. So let's join the conversation.
Mark: Pray this time. I wanna hear you-
Andrew: You want me to pray?
Mark: I wanna see if you know how.
Andrew: He never lets me pray, all right. Maybe Angie should.
Lord, thank you for today. Thank you for Angie. Thank you for Todd. Thank you for who they are as people and the stories they have to share. May you translate all our stories for your glory, our good. It's in Jesus' name we pray, amen.
Angie: Amen.
Mark: I'd give that a B.
Andrew: He won't ever, I like to hold hands when you pray, you know.
Mark: Uh-uh.
Andrew: He doesn't wanna touch.
Angie: You don't like that.
Mark: I don't touch.
Angie: Okay.
Mark: Not him, I'd, you know.
Angie: Are you weird about hugs though?
Mark: No, no, no.
Andrew: But he doesn't linger.
Mark: But don't enjoy it too much.
Angie: You know, like I'll kind of, I rest my little head.
Mark: I don't expect anybody's head on my shoulder.
Angie: (laughs) But don't linger. I'm absolutely gonna use that.
Andrew: But I grew up in a family with all brothers, youngest, and my dad, therapist. So very, he's met my parents now. My mom's more kind of straightforward and my dad's real touchy, feely. I mean, he would come lay down on the couch with us and just cuddle us.
Angie: Aw.
Andrew: You know, so.
Mark: I would now. I would do that with a child. I would do that with, you know, I love babies. I love babies. But you, ah...
Angie: You get to a certain age and should learn not to-
Mark: And I like, I love hugging people, but.
Angie: And then letting go.
Andrew: (laughs) Are you affectionate?
Angie: It depends who the person is. Like a Target cashier, no. You know what I mean? It just depends.
Mark: What about Walmart?
Angie: Definitely not. (laughs) Not the Walmart I go to. Not late at night, but no. I think it depends.
Andrew: Yeah, I mean, Todd seems like a bear hugger.
Angie: Yeah, he's pretty- He's huggy. I don't like-
Mark: Well, don't you think artists are more sensitive?
Angie: Yeah, I do.
Mark: I do.
Andrew: To touch?
Mark: Probably.
Angie: What's a to touch?
Andrew: No, I take it- (laughs)
Mark: Like sensitive.
Angie: Oh, I was like, I don't even know about this.
Mark: In the sense that artists-
Andrew: It's how to test someone out.
Mark: You know, are more touchy.
Andrew: (laughs) Yeah.
Mark: So we're here today though.
Andrew: Yes, that's right, to talk about your family.
Angie: Oh my goodness.
Mark: Isn't that good?
Angie: I thought I was gonna have to fake eat.
Mark: You don't, please. Amy Grant barely touched hers, so.
Angie: Well, do you have it still?
Andrew: You know, I was talking to Allie beforehand about, it's been 10 years since y'all really were in the thick of the journey with your daughter, Audrey, who lived a few hours after her birth. And I was talking to Allie, who works with y'all and sayin', you know, you guys are three dimensional people with daughters and a full family and I'm sure plenty of stories to tell. Is this really a story that needs to be retold, or that we should even talk about, or address again, just wanting to be sensitive to that. And she was so, how she talked about it, that this is a continuing part of your whole family story. It's not just about a daughter who's no longer here in this life. It's about your whole family. Do you see it that way when you think about Audrey?
Angie: I do, I think that we- Sorry. I feel like I was supposed to do that earlier. I feel like we, from the very beginning, made it clear that she was part of our family, even when she was in my stomach.
Mark: Now, was she your first child?
Angie: No, she would've been my fourth daughter.
Mark: Okay, okay.
Angie: And now I have another after her, so I have five girls.
Mark: Wow.
Angie: Yeah. But even when we found out that I was pregnant, we made a point of saying to the girls, you know-
There's kind of a story with this bunny that I had wanted from Anthropologie before we found out. And Todd's like, "It's expensive. We're not buyin' it." So we went and found out. And for some reason, we decided to stop at that store again. And the bunny ears were kind of out, so we pulled it. And it had a mark right on its heart, which is one of the conditions Audrey had. And so we brought it to the register, and she's trying to get it off and we're, I'm bawling and we're like, it's not gonna come off, you know?
And she's like, "Do you wanna discount?" I was like, "No." "Do you want another one?" "No, this one's ours." Pay full price.
Mark: Wow.
Angie: So we took it home, and I put a bandaid on it, and that's how we explained to the girls. And so, you know, Audrey Bunny, there's now a children's book. She's a little bunny, sits in my office. And when we- I never talk about this part.
When we buried her, she had her, this little tiny coffin, you know? And Audrey Bunny was sitting on top of it, and without any prompting, my daughter Kate reached over and ripped off the bandaids and just threw them.
Mark: Wow.
Angie: You know, like she doesn't need these anymore.
Mark: She's free now.
Angie: Mm-hmm. And so even when I was pregnant, I gave the girls disposable cameras. And so they have all these pictures of like, here's Audrey at the park. Here's Audrey at the ballet or whatever. You know, it was just my stomach. Ellie, I said, "Where do you wanna take her while we have her?"
Mark: Oh, gosh.
Angie: And of course Ellie is like, totally selflessly, 'cause she'd never been to Disney World. I'm like, "All right."
Mark: That's fantastic.
Andrew: She has to.
Mark: So you knew, take us back to the diagnosis. What happened?
Angie: So I already had three girls. I was 20 weeks pregnant. And we just went in thinking it was the normal, you know, you get your 20-week ultrasound.
Mark: Wasn't your first rodeo. You've done this.
Angie: Yeah, totally. So we just were wondering if it was a girl or boy. I mean, that was the only thing that was on our minds. And we got in there, and I could just, yeah, I could tell. And I had had pretty bad pregnancies.
Mark: You could tell. What do you mean you could tell?
Angie: Well, from the technician. I mean, she was just pale. And from her response, I didn't even say, "Is everything okay?” What I said to her was, "Is she gonna live?" And she was like, "I don't think so. I need to get the doctor."
Mark: Oh my God.
Angie: So it was just, and we had no reason to believe that anything was wrong.
Andrew: Right.
Mark: You had no clue.
Angie: Nothing. No, nothing.
Mark: She was growing normally.
Angie: Yeah, I mean, there was nothing that would.
Mark: So what was it?
Angie: It's really confusing. It's not genetic. It started with her kidneys, and I didn't know all this 'cause I'm not, I didn't pay attention to most of that part of school. But apparently there, you know, the way things work are, because her kidneys weren't working, there wasn't enough amniotic fluid. And that is what helps grow the lungs. So sort of like multiple, any one of the variables would've made her incompatible with life.
But I will say one of the coolest parts of it was, she had, you know, cysts on her kidneys, and they said, "She has these cysts. They'll get worse. She doesn't have a bladder. She doesn't have a stomach. She doesn't have four chambers in her heart." I mean, it just is hitting me like bullets.
And we went back and I had the same technician. We went back a few weeks later and they said, "She'll have more cysts, so just anticipate that." And the same woman is scanning over it. I wish I'd kept the paperwork. They probably still have it. And she goes, "That's weird. Actually, it looks like she has like fewer cysts. I didn't expect that."
And then she like- Oh no, it was a different woman. She scrolls over, and she goes, "Here's her stomach." And I'm like, "But." And she's looking at the paperwork. And she's like, "I don't know." And then she's like, "Bladder. I don't, okay, I don't know." And then she slid, and I saw her eyes open tender, like well, I remember grabbing the bed. And she's like, "She has four chambers in her heart."
So I mean, we didn't ultimately get the miracle that we wanted, but I believe that along the way, there were just reminders that God was like. So we, you know, there are things, mysteries we’re not supposed to see or understand. And that's just this sacred. I don't know.
“There are things, mysteries we’re not supposed to see or understand.”
Mark: And so she was born.
Angie: Yep. We carried her for as long as we could.
Mark: And she lived.
Angie: For two and a half hours.
Andrew: Take me back to that incompatible with life statement, right. So that's gotta be a weird phrase to hear, especially considering our spirituality and our belief in life.
Angie: Right. Mm-hmm.
Andrew: How did that hit you? And was there advices based on that? I mean, what do people do when they have a child in the womb that's incompatible with life?
Angie: Well, I mean, I'm pretty open about this. And I'm, I don't know if I get hate mail about it 'cause my assistant reads it all, so it doesn't even come to me. People write, and I'm like, it's not gonna come to me, so just get your heart out, and.
Mark: I'll never see it.
Angie: I'll never see it. So I don't know if I have ever. Allie's got a secret folder.
But one of the things I say often from stage is, you know, that day and you have, you just, you don't know until you're there.
So I'm in this room, I'm completely in shock. My mother-in-law was supposed to fly out. And she said, "For some reason, I felt like I was supposed to stay." So she was in the waiting room. She came back, we're all in a daze. They bring us right over to a room, I mean within 10 minutes. And they start working out a plan. Like, "Okay, if you want to abort here, here's when the last day is. If you aren't ready, you can wait until this day if you go to this state." And they're saying all this, and we're like.
Mark: They took it for granted that you were going to do that.
Angie: There's no, like incompatible means this won't work. So let's eliminate the problem. There's no point in dragging it out. I mean, that really was the feeling.
And the thing that happened was they really led us to believe that she was in pain. And so, you know, you-
Andrew: That's messing' with your brain.
Angie: You've got these staunch, "I am pro-life." I am. But I have a different empathy because in that moment, I was like, "I don't know how to mother her best." I don't know.
Andrew: If carrying her to term.
Angie: Like I'm hurting her.
Mark: Was she in pain? How did they know she was-
Angie: We got a second opinion the next day, and he said, "Absolutely not, there's no."
Mark: Why would they tell you that? Did they just not know?
Angie: I don't know.
Mark: Or you think it was manipulative?
Angie: I don't know. I mean, I never, we never really talked about it.
Mark: 'Cause what mother wouldn't?
Angie: Right. But it makes that black and white have a little bit of gray that feels, it felt very strange to me. I just had never, you know.
Mark: Wow.
Andrew: Yeah, it makes it a little bit more complex in how to deal with it. I mean, it's at that point what's so interesting, is it's not a, you know, when you throw around phrases like pro-life and stuff, we all go so political with it.
Angie: Yeah.
Andrew: It's so human in that moment.
Angie: Right.
Mark: It's individual.
Andrew: It's your experience.
Angie: Well, it's your story.
Andrew: And the fact that you even had that dilemma in your story, I think is an incredible, I think that makes your story that much more potent.
Mark: So you went the next day to find out that the child did not have any pain.
Angie: That's right.
Mark: And so then your decision was we're gonna play this out.
Angie: Yep, we're just gonna see how it goes.
Mark: And you held her for the last two hours. What happened those last two hours?
Angie: Yeah, I mean, when she was born, we said, "When she's born, if everything you thought you saw is accurate, bring her to me, so that we just can have as much time."
Mark: Now was she on anything to help her breathe?
Angie: No, because when she was born and you know, I had said, "Bring her to me," when she was born and we had all these nurses, they brought her over to a table. And I could see them, and I'm like, "He's doing it. We're about to see a miracle. He's doing it." And they're all scrambling. And so, you know, we're just kind of waiting.
And then like, I will never forget it. I could sketch which person, I just saw them take their stethoscopes off and kind of back away from the table. And I, "All right, we're not gonna get to keep her."
So they brought her over then. And I don't remember it, but apparently I just, I kept saying to her, "It's okay. You don't have to stay. It's okay." And I don't have any recollection of it, but.
Mark: Wow!
Angie: So just strange things.
So then they, you know, they put you there, and then they're wheeling you back. Well, it's a normal floor, a maternity floor. So I'm holding a baby, passing rooms with all these moms who have just had babies. It is just like-
Mark: Surreal.
Angie: So surreal, yeah.
Food for the Hungry Sponsorship Message
Mark: You can help save thousands of lives by giving a generous gift to Food for the Hungry today.
Andrew: In the rural Dera district of Ethiopia, families are experiencing high death rates in children under five due to preventable water-related diseases. They simply don't have access to clean water sources or the infrastructure to practice good health and hygiene.
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Andrew: It’s a wonderful opportunity, Mark. Food for the Hungry is already laying the groundwork now to provide a safe place to live for hundreds of thousands of vulnerable children and their families in Ethiopia. I think of Jesus's own words in the Gospels where he says, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself." The people of Ethiopia, Mark, they matter to God. And so they matter to us too. Will you help us let them know they are important to God and to their neighbors across the ocean? That's us.
Mark: Give generously today at fh.org/dinner. We're so excited that you'll be giving that we wanna give something to you. We have several add-ons, we call them, where we will be maybe making a special phone call to a friend of yours, a video.
Andrew: It's a little video, that's right, as shoutout videos for your friend's birthday or for an anniversary, or maybe like a Zoom conversation with just you, Mark, and me, or even a Zoom party with you and some of your friends. All these are just a simple way to say thank you for the life-saving gift that you're giving to Food for the Hungry, for our friends in Ethiopia, at fh.org/dinner.
Todd Smith singing “Lord, I Trust You”
It may not seem I have what it will take
I fear that in the face of trial I'll break
Any trouble's just a day away
But Lord, I trust You
The best, the worst of day are yet to come
Be glorified regardless of the cost
Be magnified, whether joy or loss
Lord, I trust You
Lord, You are life inside the fire
Lord, You are the grace that rises higher
Oh, there will never be a day
That You are not with me
Oh Lord, I trust You
I believe but help my unbelief
Help me go wherever You will lead
Do with me whatever You would please
Lord, I trust You
Lord, You are life inside the fire
Lord, You are the grace that rises higher
Oh, there will never be a day
That You are not with me
Oh Lord, I trust You
I can't find the strength to pray
It all seems lost, and it's too late, oh
I can't fear what comes my way
Then find me faithful in that day, oh
'Cause the only hope I have is
You will be enough
Lord, You are life inside the fire
Lord, You are the grace that rises higher
Oh, there will never be a day
That You are not with me
Oh Lord, I trust You
Oh Lord, I trust You
Mark: I don't want- I guess I'm curious. Was she able to breathe for two hours?
Angie: She was, yeah. She breathed for two hours. And I had sort of explained to my girls, you know, "She'll stop breathing, but when that happens, it's not scary. It means she's in heaven. And it's almost like what we see is like a baby doll. So like, don't be scared, it's okay."
Mark: But they were there too?
Angie: Oh yeah, they, so they were on the bed. Everyone was like- They all held her. Cousins, we had people come, and she-
Mark: So she was loved while she was here.
Angie: She's so loved. And she, I mean, that's all like, she knew love in the face of Jesus, that's what she knew.
But in that moment, I had said to the nurse, "When she passes, just let me know, but don't make it obvious," because I didn't want the girls to be scared. So we have it on video. This sweet nurse comes over, and puts the stethoscope and I'm holding her, and the girls are all around me. And she listens, and she takes her stethoscope down. And I just remember she took Audrey's dress, and brought it down and smoothed it, just this sort of like respectful. And she looked at me and she just went. And so I turned to the camera and I just said, (whispers) "She's gone," to Todd.
But then, I looked at the girls and I said, "Hey girls, do you remember how mommy told you that? That's what's happening? So she's there, but look." And Abby goes, "Can I, can I still play like this little piggy on her toes?"
Andrew: Can I do what?
Angie: Play this little piggy on her toes. I was like, "Of course, yeah." Of course, you're trying to navigate all these people and ages, and.
Andrew: Have you seen that change their, like in your daughters as they've gotten older now? Do you think that kinda like, that's a very unique experience for children, much less you being adults.
Mark: Yes, it sure is.
Angie: Sure.
Andrew: To have an experience of being in the room when someone passes over-
Mark: I've never been in the room.
Angie: I haven't either. Other than that, never.
Andrew: Do you think that shaped some of their idea about death? You know, that's such a big thing for a kid.
Angie: Totally. What's interesting to me is in the moment it did. I remember leaving the funeral because I just didn't- They had buried her. I just didn't. And let me back up.
My sister-in-law was singing over her while she's being buried, holding her newborn son, Luke. Our pregnancies had crossed over.
Mark: Oh!
Andrew: Wow.
Angie: And he died the next month of SIDS.
Mark: No, no, no.
Angie: Yes. Yes. And so it wasn't just her. It was just like this, what is happening, you know?
So I think in the moment, they were so panicked. And I'm trying to figure out at one point, I don't wanna hear the dirt. That for some reason, was like, I don't wanna hear that. So I'm trying to pull the kids away, and they're pulling back. And I finally, we got in the car, and Abby said, "I don't want it to rain on her.” So in my mind, I'm thinking, I don't wanna hear that. And she's like, I'd be comforted by this. There was a lot of that in the moment.
Honestly now, I don't know that they remember very much of it. So I think it did shape something that they carry with them.
Mark: And it was how long ago?
Angie: They were like, I can't do math. Todd, how old are they, five. Five and three.
Andrew: 15 minus 10.
Angie: I'm like, I remember the month. (laughs)
Mark: Are you scared to have the next child?
Angie: Totally, yeah. But I just wanted to get past that appointment, you know? Like when something-
Andrew: That 20 week?
Angie: Yeah, that was the mark.
Mark: That appointment, that one.
Andrew: So there's some relief after that.
Angie: Yeah.
Andrew: I mean, did that factor into y'all wanting to have more children?
Angie: Oh yeah.
Andrew: Were you like, I can't do that again.
Angie: Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.
Andrew: That's a big hurdle.
Mark: You think you'd have had this last child had she made it?
Angie: I don't think so. No, I don't think so. Four was a lot. Five feels like a lot.
Mark: So that last one is kind of in my position. My mother lost the baby before me. And if that child had lived, I'd have missed my window of opportunity.
Angie: I'm so glad you didn't.
Mark: Do you understand what I'm saying?
Angie: So who's above that? Is that the oldest? Do you have older siblings?
Mark: I have an older brother, younger sister. But there was one between me and my brother, and then she tried to lose me, but I wouldn't have it. About seven months into the pregnancy her water broke with me.
Angie: No!
Mark: Yep, it did. I'm sorry, three months in the pregnancy 'cause she had to lay down for seven months. And I was on the inside of her naval holdin' on for dear life.
But no, but seriously, and so.
Andrew: Aren't we glad he did?
Mark: Huh?
Andrew: I said aren't we glad you did?
Angie: We are. We're glad.
Mark: Seriously, it's a weird kind of position that puts in that kid when you think, okay, I'm thankful to that older sibling that is in heaven, who I'll meet one day, I believe. But I'm kinda glad they didn't make it.
Angie: Well, and you know what? I always have to go back to the fact that, from the beginning of time, that was always what it was going to be. You know, sometimes that comforts me. But just like it didn't take Him by surprise. 'Cause I got ticked! I mean, I'd scream at God.
Mark: You'd what?
Angie: I'd scream at God.
Andrew: While you were still pregnant? Like after you found out-
Angie: Yeah, or after.
Mark: You were upset. And you know what I love about God? He can take it.
Angie: That's what I think I learned. He's not intimidated by my emotions. It's not like I go to Him mad and He's shaking on the throne.
Mark: And it doesn't surprise Him.
Andrew: But you had to learn it, and you probably had to learn it while people are throwing trite phrases at you.
Mark: They say the stupidest things.
Angie: They sure do, mm-hmm, they sure do.
Mark: But they mean well, right?
Angie: They do.
Andrew: But that doesn't make it easy.
Angie: But then it's hard to know how to-
Mark: What's the best thing a person can do? What is the best-
Andrew: Hide?
Mark: Wait, if you've never been through it.
Angie: What'd you say?
Mark: I'm not asking you.
Angie: Did you say hide?
Mark: No, if you have a friend who goes- I believe I know what the best thing is to do, but I wanna hear you tell me what you think it is. I think, well, go ahead.
Angie: No, go ahead.
Mark: I would say just be there. Keep your mouth shut, which is very hard for me.
Angie: Well, but with someone like you that they would feel safe with, they would probably start talking, and then you would follow their lead.
Mark: Like Mark said this morning, mirror.
Angie: Yeah.
Mark: Mirror them. I know you're hurting. But I know, I think 'cause I can't say I know what you're going through. That is the worst thing I think you can say to someone.
Andrew: And it's not true.
Mark: 'Cause if you've not been through it.
Angie: No.
Andrew: And not even if you haven't been through it, there are women who have lost children after they've been born, who were alive for hours to days, whatever. They still did not have your experience 'cause they didn't have that husband, and they didn't have these other children, and they didn't live here. So really when we say that, it's completely inaccurate.
Mark: So everybody's experience is unique.
Angie: But I think we have enough to at least-
Andrew: Share.
Angie: Yeah, I mean, to at least have the empathy for someone and know there were pieces of it that are familiar or-
Mark: Have you had the opportunity, like Paul said, to comfort that which we've been comforted? Have you had women come into your life that have been through this that you've been able to?
Angie: Yeah, I have. And I say it a lot when I'm teaching. I talk about it and I have, because here's the thing. And I don't know how it was in your family, but typically a generation above me, a generation above that, women didn't talk about this at all.
I mean, I meet so many women who say, "This is the first time I've ever even talked about it. My husband put me in a wheelchair. We wheeled out. We never spoke of it again."
Andrew: Wow.
Angie: It was just that, you know, that was just the way it was. So that to me is like a real, it's a really beautiful thing when you have people who finally are able to.
Your mom told you?
Mark: Oh yes.
Angie: That's amazing.
Mark: They must've missed that generation. Almost the day I was born, she said, "I gave you to God before you were born." 'Cause she thought she was gonna lose me, so she reminded me my whole life, which I'm thankful for 'cause I felt like I was chosen by God before I- 'Cause you believe everything your parents tell you. Right? Up until a point. Until you're 13, you believe everything.
Angie: Just a line in the sand. I agree.
Andrew: (laughs) So two of yours are over it.
Angie: You're a liar.
Mark: Well, I've heard that. But Mama said that, and I believed it. And so I'm thankful for it. But yeah, she told me, she talked.
So your parents, your mother never talked, would talk about this kinda thing?
Angie: Well, no, I mean, not typically. When I meet women who are maybe in their 50s, 60s.
Mark: You mean they have lost a child, the husband puts 'em in a wheelchair, they wheel out the door and never mention it, don't even have a funeral for the baby?
Angie: No, no.
Mark: What do they do with the baby?
Angie: They just don't see it.
Andrew: Leave it in the hospital.
Angie: I mean, it's like a-
Mark: It goes to some unmarked grave?
Angie: Yeah. Who knows?
Andrew: So they do go in hiding. These are women who are coming out of hiding.
Angie: Essentially, they've had to.
Andrew: Releasing this part of their life.
Angie: Right.
Andrew: And there is an element in our society today. I mean, social media, et cetera, et cetera. There is an oversharing element that can be a part of our culture today. Have you ever felt like you've had to ride that line of like, this is an important story to tell because people need to be able to identify. But this part, I mean, even being here today and talking about it, this part's for me and for Todd and for our family.
Angie: Yeah, there are parts that I won't, that I don't talk about that were just a sacred, you know.
Mark: Can you share one of those?
Angie: Absolutely.
Andrew: And look into that camera. (laughs)
Angie: Started when I was seven. I had this nightmare.
Mark: Well, it is- I'm thankful that we don't all have to go through everything everybody else goes through to be able to help and comfort, you know?
“I’m thankful that we don’t all have to go through everything everybody else goes through to be able to help and comfort.”
What would you say, what was the best? Give me an example of someone who did it right. Do you remember anyone who really did it right? That you say, man, they brought this, they did this, they said this. What happened? Tell me that story.
Angie: There were several people. But there was one moment in particular that I will never forget because the problem is, everyone is saying, well-meaning, "God just needed another angel in heaven."
Mark: Oh, I hate that one.
Angie: That's wow!
Andrew: Not our angel.
Mark: How about your kid?
Angie: Yeah. Right?
Or Satan took your baby, this wasn't God. (imitates crying) Someone brought a casserole. I was like, took the casserole, I was like, "Get out before I get struck by lightning!"
Mark: Oh my God.
Angie: There are a couple of other ones like that. Oh, what's the other one? Oh, God'll never give you more than you can handle. That's not in the Bible at all. That's not in the Bible. Everything's more than you can handle. That's why we have God.
So there were just these things that were like (imitates explosion). I don't know how to deal with that. (laughs)
“Everything’s more than you can handle. That’s why we have God.”
Mark: That was a line for the ages, right there.
Andrew: Would you like to repeat that?
Angie: It's true!
Andrew: That one you can take to that camera. (laughs)
Mark: That is brilliant.
Angie: It's true though. I mean, people say that I'm like, that is literally not in the Bible.
Mark: There is a scripture that says-
Angie: There is, but it's talking in the context of being tempted by something. And it's saying there's never a time that God will give you something that's, you know-
Andrew: Point in your direction.
Angie: Evil, that you don't have a way to get out of. I mean, it has nothing to do with that. It's a, I mean-
Andrew: But not life's, you can handle life.
Angie: I mean, you can embroider it on a pillow, but it's still a lie. I mean, people, they love that phrase.
So what do you say though? I mean, it's hard.
Mark: I got a song on my new record that says that. Now I'm gonna have to go take that off.
Andrew: Embroider it on a pillow?
Mark: No, but-
Andrew: I'm like, what?
Mark: (indistinct) hearin' about it more than I can bear. I wish you wouldn't put on me more than I can bear, but sometimes it feels like I'm already there. You have heard that?
Andrew: Yeah. I'm sure I have.
Angie: I don't think that says the same thing.
Mark: Okay, so let's go back to this. What did the person do right? You were gonna tell us.
Angie: Yeah, it's a great question. There were a couple, but one was Todd's brother. He came from Detroit. And of course everyone's saying the things and they're trying. They're also pulling back 'cause they don't know what the line is. So they pull back instead of ask. You know, it's like, (grunts) no one wants to say her name. People love it when you say a baby's name who's gone, a child, like they want to know.
But Todd's brother came in town for the funeral, and I was coming down the stairs. I had the dress on that I was wearing to her funeral. And he was standing at the bottom of the stairs, the bottom of the stairs, he goes, "Angie, this sucks!" And I was like, "Yes, thank you." Yeah, call it like it is.
Mark: Absolutely.
Angie: So to me that was, that's one that's always stood out as just being a relief.
Andrew: I almost think that statement creates more communion with each other and with God than any other platitude you can think of.
Mark: But don't you think God thinks it sucks?
Angie: Yeah, I do. I do.
Andrew: It's not His design, is it? I mean, death is not His design for life.
“Death is not His design for life.”
Angie: No. And I get asked that question a lot too. And I try to make my opinion clear. No. Do I believe He wanted it? Do I believe He caused it? No. Do I believe that if it happened to me it was somehow sifted through His hands? Yes. You know, and nothing happens that, there's not something that happens and He's like, "Whoa, I didn't want that to happen!"
Mark: That reminds me of something an old preacher said one time, B.R. Lakin. When I was a kid, he said, "You are in Christ, and Jesus is in God, right? And so for Satan to get to you, he's gonna have to get through both of them. And by that time, he'll be saved too."
Angie: (laughs) Oh my gosh, that's great. (laughs)
Mark: So I agree with you.
Angie: I love that.
Andrew: Yeah, that's in Ephesians.
Mark: Nothing happens that isn't sifted through His hands. I believe it. I really believe that.
Angie: But I think people are almost comforted by saying, "This was Satan." You know?
Andrew: It is potentially for them.
Angie: Because they can't be.
Mark: Why would you give him that much credit?
Angie: I think it's cause you don't wanna think that God could do something or be involved in something that hard.
Mark: Or allow it. Well, he does, sorry.
Angie: I know. But in that position, it's hard to try and navigate.
Mark: There's only one good answer that I've ever heard. And it is this one preacher who, and I'll get into this real fast and get out, 'cause we don't wanna go here.
Angie: No, I love it. I've been talking the whole time. You talk, I'm gonna eat.
Mark: About how God is really not in control. That God gave up control when He allowed men to have freewill. And that He will be. The songwriter had it right. The kingdoms of this world will become the kingdoms of our God.
Angie: Mm-hmm.
Mark: But they are not now. They're principalities and powers of the air. Now I'm just throwing out this line.
Angie: Wait, he was saying God doesn't have control?
Andrew: That He gave up control for the sake of-
Mark: Because, first of all, you can't be in true communion and love if you're forcing power. You gotta lay down power for love to work. Even for God, He had to lay down His power. Now I don't believe any of this. But I'm just sharing it.
Andrew: But what if, yeah, what if-
Mark: Okay, and then the other side of the coin is God is in control. And He does allow-
Angie: You should've had this conversation with Amy. Isn't she (laughs) the one who sings that song?
Andrew: "God Is In Control"?
Angie: Yeah. Who sings that?
Andrew: (laughs) No, that's not.
Angie: Who is it?
Andrew: Oh, come on someone.
God us in control, control
Celeste: Twila Paris!
Mark: Who, who?
Andrew: Twila Paris.
Mark: Well, I don't know. All I know is this. I mean, I believe, I believe He's in control. But I do have a problem with understanding if you are in control, I mean, your child, that's worse enough, but allow a baby to live and then it's abused. See, to me, I think I have grace. I mean, I am such a gracious person when it comes to the theology. I'm not always gracious personally, but I'm gracious. I mean, I say love everybody. Let everybody in. 'Cause that way I'm sure I'll get in too.
Angie: Just covering your bases. Yeah.
Mark: I mean, let the blood cover everybody. What's the problem?
Andrew: It's not up to me anyway.
Mark: You know, I'll sweep it under the blood, or sweep it under the rug. You gotta sweep it somewhere. I say sweep it under the blood, and get it done, but.
My point was. Where was I going?
Andrew: I really don't know by now.
Mark: But it was really good.
Andrew: Oh, control, control because-
Mark: If He is in control, then why does He let a father abuse, sexually abuse, his child? I would thump them on the head so fast they would split hell wide open, and I would turn up the temperature because I have no patience-
Angie: It's a great visual.
Mark: With anybody who would abuse a child. I mean, that to me, I don't have grace for that, and I'm workin' on it.
Andrew: The heavens, I totally agree. You talk about the vile of the vile or whatever. But it's all our categories. Under heaven, under this kingdom we categorize it, and segment it, or under this kingdom, right? Under the kingdom of heaven, Kingdom of God, I am no different than that father. I do believe that. I have not chosen to-
Mark: I do believe that too, but I mean, as far as, okay, when you compare my sin to God, Lord, it's like, it's big.
Angie: Tell us more.
Mark: Let's don't compare it to the hymn; let's compare it to God. We all fall short compared to God. Right? So it's like, you know, if I wanna jump and reach the moon, I can reach about six feet if I jump high. But you know, one of those basketball players can jump 10 feet. But we're still-
Andrew: I think you can reach six feet.
Mark: 880,000 miles from the moon. And my point is, it don't matter how high you can jump, you're still too far from the moon to touch it. And God's-
Angie: Yeah, above it all.
Mark: So all of our sin is hideous, but some have bigger consequences.
Angie: Sure, now that's a different, yeah.
Andrew: Totally, but then that goes into but if you go back into God and control, and your family, this was not obviously, at least in my perspective, this wasn't a consequence of someone, direct consequence of, someone's sin. Of course I'm sure-
Angie: That's tricky too. Because in scripture, there is a story where David, you know, and-
Mark: David, what?
Angie: Well, he has an affair.
Mark: Yeah.
Angie: And specifically, it says that that baby died because of. And so a lot of people-
Mark: Because of the sin?
Angie: Yeah.
Mark: But hold on. Do you know what happened next?
Angie: Uh, huh.
Mark: Go ahead and tell me.
Angie: Well. (laughs)
Mark: The baby died.
Angie: Jesus, what?
No, exactly, Solomon.
Mark: Okay, but he gets up, cleans himself and says, "That baby can't come to me, but I will go to him."
Now, my mama used that to believe that babies go to heaven. She would argue with our Catholic neighbors about that. 'Cause he got up, washed himself, quit mourning, and he said- But what did you learn from that?
Angie: No, I just thought, I always just say "Jesus" if I don't know the answer. I feel like there's a good chance. (laughs) So I said Jesus.
Visit Dinner-Conversations.com for DVDs, CDs, and more!
Mark: Did you know that at dinner-conversations.com, we have a store. We have been around long enough to produce products.
Andrew: That you want.
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The Abide Bible Sponsorship Message
Mark: The Bible is the foundation of our theology. We would not know of Jesus if it weren't for the Bible. We wouldn't know about grace. We wouldn't know about how God cares for us. And there is a new Bible out called the Abide Bible. You know how Jesus said, if you abide in me as I abide in my father, and we abide in each other, and it's just a continual feed off each other. And what I like about this Bible is it's asking us to go deeper.
Andrew: Yeah, it's taking an approach to the Bible from being just simply informational to really being invitational. So there's a lot of prompts in this Bible to journal alongside Scriptures. It gives you opportunity to pray certain Scriptures at different seasons of your life, to meditate on the Scripture. There's beautiful artwork in here that's really cool cause it's not just like some kind of Sunday school artwork. They're using like da Vinci and beautiful pieces of classic art to really just get us to imagine, to be able to use all of our senses as we enter into Scripture, so that we really step into the story of Scripture, not just see it as words on a page but as part of a living, breathing active part of our lives. And you know what? I asked my brother one time, who's a pastor, I said, "Why is the Bible so important?" And he said exactly what you said a second ago, because it is the greatest written revelation of who God is. And so it gives us the opportunity to know God but also to be a part of God's story. That's the Abide Bible.
Mark: So go to abidebible.com to get your copy today.
Todd Smith singing “Great Is Thy Faithfulness”
Todd: Mark and Andrew, thank you so much for having us. As you know, I've been in Selah for 20 years, and we got started doing hymns. That's, I mean, one of the very first things we did was we sang at a youth concert and sang "It Is Well." And I remember thinking this was the worst decision we ever made, to sing hymns for a bunch of teenagers. And this 16-year-old kid came up to Allan, who plays in our group, and he said, "Man, I love that song, that 'It Is Well' song. Did you guys write that?" And Allan just showed him how, back when we had hymnals, you know, it was in the hymnal book.
But this is another great one. It just talks about the faithfulness of God. It's called "Great Is Thy Faithfulness."
Great is Thy faithfulness, O God my Father
There is no shadow of turning with Thee
Thou changes not, Thy compassion's, they fail not
As Thou hast been, Thou forever will be
Great is Thy faithfulness
Great is Thy faithfulness
Morning by morning new mercies I see
All I have needed Thy hand hath provided
Great is Thy faithfulness, Lord, unto me
Summer and winter, springtime and harvest
Sun, moon and stars in their courses above
Join with all nature in manifold witness
To Thy great faithfulness, mercy and love
Great is Thy faithfulness
Great is Thy faithfulness
Morning by morning new mercies I see
All I have needed Thy hand hath provided
Great is Thy faithfulness, Lord, unto me
Andrew: I think God's control is so beyond our comprehension of what control means.
Angie: Yep.
Andrew: Our context of control is manipulative, needing a means to an end. We don't understand. It's that sovereign control, right? It's the idea that control of, like I'm just, I want what is right and good and control.
Angie: Right.
Andrew: I think, you know. I'm just workin' this out while I'm talkin' about it. I just think it's so beyond our-
Mark: God's control?
Andrew: Our comprehension.
Angie: Oh, absolutely.
Mark: But I've still got questions.
Andrew: Well, of course. As a Bible teacher, that's what I think.
Angie: Jesus.
Andrew: She's a Bible teacher.
Angie: Just say Jesus.
Mark: Okay, tell me somethin'. You're a Bible teacher, let's talk about that for a minute. Can we change the subject?
Andrew: It's always good to know your guests before you come.
Mark: No, I've gotta go to one.
Angie: No, it's fine. He's like where have, where have you performed? I was like, "At Women of Faith with you, Mark."
Mark: Well, I know that, but I didn't hear you. Did I?
Angie: You did. (laughs) You complimented me very highly afterward though. So thank you.
Mark: I've lost my mind.
Angie: It's all right. You were very funny.
Mark: My mother has dementia, and I think I got it.
Angie: She does? Does she really?
Mark: Who are you?
Angie: Aw!
Mark: I'm kidding. (laughs) She's dead. She doesn't have it now.
Angie: That was a, that was a turn.
Mark: That was a turn.
Angie: That was a plot twist.
Mark: Because my brain, I knew it, but I thought we'd met.
Angie: So, yeah. Conferences.
Mark: What are you speaking about now? What's on your heart? What's God teaching you now?
Andrew: (laughs) I'm good with that.
Mark: Can we go with that?
Andrew: Yeah.
Mark: I love that kind of thing.
Andrew: I'm great with it.
Mark: Is that a tough one?
Angie: No, I-
Andrew: Have you not revealed it yet?
Mark: 'Cause I hate that question when I get asked.
Angie: Yeah, I have something that I'm gonna be teaching it at, and I haven't officially got it yet, but.
Mark: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, you're thinkin' through somethin'.
Angie: I gotta work it out.
Mark: Oh, you don't want it to get out. Of something that-
Andrew: It's not time yet.
Angie: I don't know when this airs.
Andrew: Oh, this will air like three years probably. (laughs)
Angie: It's after February?
Andrew: Mm-hmm, yeah.
Mark: Let's talk about it.
Andrew: But don't say something-
Mark: I wanna hear somethin' you're thinkin' about or thinkin' through.
Angie: This is something that I'm thinking through, okay.
Andrew: After February, yes.
Angie: So here's something I'm thinking through, is I think, I mean, I'm thinking about what draws other people to us as Christians. It's too long of a story, but what's your goal and what's your strategy to get there? And so I start thinking about abortion clinics. And if someone were to say to you, "Picture a Christian there," you would immediately have an image in your mind either of someone holding a sign and telling people they're going to hell. Which I haven't seen a pie chart, but I'm thinking that's like 0% effective. There's no one walking going, "Tell me more about the living water." Like that's not happening. And so we're all doing it. Maybe there are people there who are kind, who are praying, so I'm not saying it's all that.
My question is, why aren't we backdoor Christians? Why aren't we on the other side when they come out saying, "Here's some water. Let me pray for you. I don't know your story. I don't know exactly what happened in that building, but I know this, Jesus loves you absolutely no less than He did when you walked in."
That's the gospel to me. And I just think if Jesus was here, that's where He'd be. Obviously, He'd be everywhere, but He's the one who says, "I do know your story. I know everything you've done there. And I'm here to comfort you. And I love you no less because of it." That to me is the radical message of the gospel I think we just miss sometimes as Christians.
We have our rules, and once you haven't fit in our category of what's right, it's sort of like- Do you know what I mean?
Andrew: Yeah.
Angie: And so the other side to me is just, it's something that I've, and there's a lot more to that. But that's the gist of it, me just challenging myself.
Andrew: Backdoor Jesus.
Angie: Yeah, I mean to be, 'cause who does that? No one stands at the back door of an abortion clinic.
Mark: I never even thought about it.
Angie: It's done by then.
Andrew: And our rules actually put us in another religion, to me, because the gospel is a no-strings-attached love. It's unconditional. That is completely different than any, if we wanna just go the religion route, that's the difference.
Angie: Yeah.
Andrew: Grace is the incomprehensible thing, not only for us but for people in other religions who've never even heard hints of it. Like when we were with Rabbi whoever, and he's like, "Will you explain grace to me?"
Angie: Have you ever read What's So Amazing About Grace by Philip Yancey?
Mark: Oh yeah.
Angie: (gasps) That book changed my walk.
Andrew: You wanna not like it, you know, 'cause it's like Philip Yancey and I (growls). It's like loving Max Lucado. I mean, I love him.
Mark: What is wrong with you?
Andrew: No, I'm just saying-
Angie: 'Cause he's like such an icon.
Mark: You shouldn't even be able to loosen either one of their shoe laces.
I have cried more over those Max Lucado books. I'm glad my mother's dead sometimes. If she heard this, she would be flippin'.
Angie: (laughs) Again. I think she probably can hear it.
Mark: I know, but she's different now.
Andrew: Now that's an interesting conversation. (laughs)
Mark: I know, we're surrounded by a cloud of witnesses. Do you think that could be that?
Andrew: So you think they can tap in when they want to, like a TV channel?
Angie: I don't know, but-
Mark: Do you think we're their Thursday night reality TV show?
Angie: Wouldn't that be awesome? I'm the housewife, I mean, yeah. Let's do this!
Mark: You always wanted to be on the Housewives, now you are. You know, I don't know. Don't you think, I mean, let's play around with this, 'cause you know, none of us have seen.
Angie: I know, 'cause we can't end at a bad place, 'cause we don't.
Andrew: We're already there.
Mark: Do you think there are streets of gold and walls of jasper literally, or I mean, can we even know?
Andrew: I say no because I don't wanna, my focus, that's only for me personally. 'Cause I'm like, I don't want to be somewhere, I want to be with God.
Mark: Jesus.
Andrew: Just to be with God. Who cares about the, the rest is superfluous.
Angie: Yeah.
Mark: Well, no, but it's. Listen, He's the one temptin' us. Eye hath not seen, ear hath not heard, neither has it entered into the hearts of men what God has prepared for those who love Him. And I think He said that, 'cause hey, y'all really. You're gonna like this. Come on, love me a little. Maybe, maybe not.
Angie: You're gonna like this.
Andrew: That's your next Bible study title.
Angie: I think that's a new hashtag for spreading the gospel. You're gonna like this.
Mark: See, I'm so old, I don't even know what a hashtag is.
Angie: Already decorated.
Mark: God's got ya.
No, I think I'm maybe tired. Oh, that light just went out. Maybe God didn't like this.
Angie: Oh, He's like-
Andrew: Oh, it's happening. Here we are. Cut! (laughs)
Angie: Someone in the cloud was like (claps). The end, change the channel. Can't watch that anymore.
Mark: I just think it's gonna be cool.
And when you got people over there, like you got that baby. I got Mama, I got nieces, and I got a nephew. You know, we've all got people, right? We've all got people over there. And I think it's gonna be fantastic.
Andrew: And to let the imagination run wild, I think that's cool.
Angie: Well, and you know why? Because for me, and Todd and I had this conversation about let's just skip- As far as Genesis, was is it actually seven days or was it? I have my own opinions about that. At the end of the day, it's not a salvation issue.
Mark: No, it's not.
Angie: You know, like talking about what heaven looks like. It's not like we get up there and He's like, "It's gold, I told you," you drop through the, you know. I love thinkin' about those things.
Mark: I believe Jesus' only, Jesus is the only dividing line for me. I mean, you could believe whatever you wanna believe on everything else. But I mean,
Andrew: Yeah, me too.
Mark: Jesus is the only way to God. I believe there are many ways to Jesus, but there's only one way to God.
Andrew: It's for me, and this'll take you into cheesy territory. There's this when The Shack came out, right? I refuse to read everything that's popular, even though it's probably popular for a reason, right.
Angie: I'm so that way.
Andrew: It's like, wow, that's gonna be terrible or cheesy, you know?
Mark: I loved it.
Andrew: My mom got it from a friend, and she said, "I don't wanna read this if it's, you know, crappy, so will you read it for me?" Now I do like assignments, so I was like, sure.
Angie: Absolutely.
Andrew: You know what I mean?
Angie: I could live at- I want a highlighter.
Andrew: You want my opinion on this?
Angie: Yes, I want it.
Andrew: Sure.
So I read it, and when I read that portion about Jesus, who was portrayed by the Hispanic guy, woodworker guy, went out onto the dock with this father who's been grieving, you know, and he lays down next to him shoulder to shoulder and just looks up and stares at the stars with him. That's what I want. I just want that friend. You know what I mean?
That there is no, there's no longer a separation between people. We are so tightly knit and wound. I mean, every thought that that man laying beside him ever knew, every grief, every pain, didn't even have to say it. Knows it. That's what I want.
Mark: Well, good luck! Are we done?
Angie: It's gonna be good. It's gonna be good.
Mark: You're gonna love heaven.
Mark: Thank you for watching Dinner Conversations. Don't forget to subscribe, and then ring that bell and get all notifications.
Andrew: And don't forget to like us or dislike us. Don't do that. Leave comments, talk about what's resonating in your life from these conversations, and join us next time for Dinner Conversations with--
Mark: Mark Lowry.
Andrew: And Andrew Greer.
Mark: Turning the light on.
Andrew: One question at a time.
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True Identity featuring Bryan White
We know Bryan White for his smash Country singles like "God Gave Me You," "Rebecca Lynn," and "From This Moment" with Shania Twain. But we came to love the Grammy-winning country music artist for his humble candor as he shared his heartbreaking story of losing his voice and identity at the peak of his musical career, and his on-going healing and discovery that who you are is not what you do. Also Leigh Cappillino of Point of Grace joins Bryan for a special musical moment!
We know Bryan White for his smash Country singles like "God Gave Me You," "Rebecca Lynn," and "From This Moment" with Shania Twain. But we came to love the Grammy-winning country music artist for his humble candor as he shared his heartbreaking story of losing his voice and identity at the peak of his musical career, and his on-going healing and discovery that who you are is not what you do. Also Leigh Cappillino of Point of Grace joins Bryan for a special musical moment!
Transcript
Mark: Dinner Conversations is brought to you by Food for the Hungry, an incredible relief and community development organization serving those with physical and spiritual needs around the world for 50 years this year.
Andrew: Help us as we help our friends at Food for the Hungry save thousands of lives in Ethiopia today by considering a generous gift.
Mark: A gift that will be matched 22 times.
Andrew: Your one-time gift will make an eternal difference. So visit fh.org/dinner to give now.
Mark: Well, here's another one that I heard the name, but because I'm not a music aficionado- Is that a word?
Andrew: Yeah, aficionado.
Mark: But Bryan White, and I put him on the Facebook today, and man, people were like Bryan White, Bryan White, how do you know Bryan White? He knows me too. It's an amazing episode. I enjoyed this one.
Andrew: Yeah, he is just a really classic country artist from- I grew up listening to him on the country radio, songs like "Rebecca Lynn" and "From This Moment On" with Shania Twain. He's had, I mean he was defining a younger generation of country music. So I was kind of fanboying.
But I know his brother Daniel White here in Nashville, so he introduced us. And we just let him tell his story about identity. It's more than if you're a celebrity or not. We all put so much stock into what we do or how we present ourselves, and this is getting us back to the basics of who we are, and that's not always what we do.
Mark: So if your identity is wrapped up in what you do, we have one seat left at the table and it's yours. Let's join the conversation.
Mark: You are an amazingly talented writer.
Andrew: Mm-hmm.
Mark: Talented singer, and how did you, what happened? Take me back to the beginning. How did people first hear of Bryan White?
Bryan: Well, I grew up in Oklahoma and come from a long line of farmers, auctioneers, and my dad was the one guy that was the black sheep of the family. He started playing drums when he was a kid and got bit by the music bug and met my mom in high school, and my mom just happened to be a naturally talented singer. And they eventually started some bands and started playing the devil's music. And eventually moved to Oklahoma City from their really small rural southwestern Oklahoma towns that they were from, and they jumped in feet first and started trying to break into the scene in Oklahoma City and did really well for many, many years, essentially put my brother and I through school playing music really.
So I kind of got the bug. I got it honest from them. And somewhere along the lines of 16- or 17-years-old, I can't even remember what the question was you asked me, but...
Mark: Back to the beginning. You're right, you're right on target. How people first heard of you.
Bryan: Yeah, okay, so I, I was fortunate enough through a couple friends in Oklahoma City to get connected with a guy in Nashville named Billy Joe Walker Jr., and Billy took to my voice, and before I had even graduated from high school, and said I'd love to meet with you. Long story short, I made a trip to Nashville, met with him, sang a couple demos for him, and he and his wife took me under their wing, and I stayed with them and came up here and eventually moved after I graduated from high school, and I did graduate.
And then from then on, one thing happened after the next. I got a publishing deal. Glen Campbell signed me to his publishing company.
Andrew: How cool is that? 18-year-old kid or something?
Bryan: 19. And I really didn't know how to-
Mark: So you had been writing how long before that?
Bryan: Not long. I wouldn't even call myself a songwriter at that point. I was just, I sort of wanted to write so bad, and that was the one little catalyst that helped me to really start learning how to write songs, the craft of writing songs.
And so through that publishing deal I got to meet so many people and write with them, co-create with them. And then I eventually got a record deal after that, and started, my first record came out in '94.
Mark: And you were how old at that time?
Bryan: 19, 20, something like that.
Andrew: I mean, I think about when your first record came out. There are a lot of people who put a lot of years into a lot of records before something really hits. And I know you had a few singles that did okay before you had your number ones, but still you had a debut record that comes out as platinum.
And I was reading this article that said really your music, and I think about, I was growing up as a kid in Texas at that time hearing Bryan White all the time on the radio. They said that you-
Bryan: What part of Texas?
Andrew: West of Fort Worth, going towards Abilene.
Bryan: Okay, yeah, yeah.
Andrew: Like Weatherford area.
Bryan: Okay, yeah, yeah.
Andrew: Azle?
Bryan: Okay.
Mark: You've been all over Texas, I bet.
Bryan: I'll be in Fort Worth in November actually.
Andrew: Oh really?
Mark: So you were saying-
Bryan: We can get along.
Andrew: I know, there's no line, but there is.
I was just thinking so much success so soon, oh, and this article was saying you literally helped define a new younger generation of country music. Of course, this was as pop/country was still kind of making its way, was still coming out of country being fairly traditional, Emmy Lou Harris, that kind of thing. And they said that you helped redefine a generation of country music because of your youth and because of the sound. And I think the sales and all that followed to affirm that.
Do you remember having impressions as a 19-, 20-year-old going, "Okay, this is huge. What do I do with this?"
Mark: Did you get cocky?
Bryan: Oh gosh, for sure, yeah, everybody-
Mark: How could you not?
Bryan: There's no human being on Earth that can handle that kind of stuff and not, you know-
Andrew: At 19, 20 especially.
Mark: What would you tell that 20-year-old if you could sit down with him and say, "Okay, listen," not specific things, but what would you say to him to help him not do-
Bryan: First thing I'd say was, I'd look him straight in the eye, and I'd say, "Listen, you're not that big of a deal. And secondly, you aren't your voice, you aren't your career, you're created for much more than that." And I'd say don't forget to have fun. I forgot to have fun along the way. It became-
Mark: A taskmaster.
Bryan: But to answer your question, there were definitely moments where I knew something big was really happening, and I can't take credit for the, the, what you were saying, we were part of a movement or something. Well, I mean, maybe, but I wasn't the sole decider in a lot of that stuff. I was so young and so green. I just knew- I don't know if I really knew what a hit song was as much as I knew what a great song was, and people like Kyle Lehning and Billy Joe Walker Jr. at my label, it was kind of a concerted effort on the songs and the material, and so I think it was really a team effort.
But maybe to some degree my vocal style being a little different and not what was happening at the time maybe contributed to that, but it was really a team effort.
Andrew: I mean, do you remember thinking in that time, like Mark said becoming a taskmaster, and probably almost kind of this mini god. It's what careers I think have an easy way to do, especially when they elevate that quickly. Did you even think, "Hey, I'm going down a path that can't sustain itself." I mean, were you thinking of sustaining at all? "If I wanna do this in 30 years?"
Bryan: No. I never thought about that. I didn't have a very line, I wasn't very linear minded 'cause it happened so young. I thought, "Well what are we doing today?" It was a day-to-day type of mentality. I didn't have a lot of intuitiveness that I, that I wish I- It's the same thing. I wish I knew then what I know now.
Mark: Did you have good people around you?
Bryan: I think so, without a doubt.
Mark: 'Cause that made all the difference, didn't it?
Bryan: I mean, we all had our differences, and you have arguments with people that you love-
Mark: But they didn't rip you off, they didn't-
Bryan: No, I can't say anywhere along the way that anybody took advantage of me that I was aware of. I consider that definitely God's providence and covering there.
Mark: For sure.
Andrew: When did it begin to- I mean, you had a really long run on that first kind of part of your career journey. Do you remember moments where, okay, this is kind of cracking in your psyche, just in your physical ability to keep up, or expectations of yourself where you're like this isn't gonna fly forever?
Bryan: I remember always feeling a certain amount of pressure with every little thing that I had to do. I remember being fatigued and tired all the time, and I took that out on everybody around me because I didn't feel like people took the time to think about my well-being as much. We were all working hard, but there were times where two years prior I was sleeping on a desk in high school. So to be going at that pace was, it wasn't anybody's fault because there was-
Andrew: You signed up.
Bryan: 'cause this is what I signed up for. But there were just times where I would, I didn't wanna go do something.
Mark: What were your parents thinking? What were they- I mean, were they, did they know how fatigued you were, or were they thrilled with your success? I'm sure they supported you.
Andrew: They were musicians.
Bryan: Oh, for sure. I think I always had love and support from grandparents and my parents. As far as what they thought, I know what my mom thought. I didn't have the tightest relationship with my dad, but I do know now because my mom tells me very openly what she thought a long time ago.
I think she felt like I was sort of stolen from her for many years because in a couple little- There's always a couple little remarks that still stick with me to this day that I don't remember who said 'em, but there was always- I remember back then somebody said, "Well, say goodbye to your family and everything that you love for the next few years." And it kind of hit me, kind of aggravated me a little bit, 'cause I was like what are you, what are you talking about?
Andrew: I'll see my family.
Bryan: And it really was that. And now I realize why my mom felt like that. She just couldn't, her son was gone, and I don't even think I was exactly the same when I was around her a lot because I was just so sort of almost indoctrinated by just your poise and what's going on, and you're playing the radio game, and you're in, you've become this box of cookies that is being marketed everywhere, so you have a totally different mindset and it's hard to be normal.
Mark: And it goes from that to a cog in the wheel.
Bryan: Yeah.
Mark: Where you're just working, working, working, exhausted.
Bryan: For sure.
Mark: So what happened? How have you- I've always said you can either land the plane or crash it, but when it's out of gas, it's coming down. So did you land it or did you have, what happened?
Bryan: I don't know if I landed it or if it crashed. I still, the jury's still out on that. I mean, I knew I was a good singer. I knew I was an exceptional singer, and I had something different. And obviously that begins to, you start drinking your own Kool-Aid, and God was not at the center of my life at that time. I had a form of godliness as they say, but he wasn't the center of my focus. I was the center of my focus. My voice, my career, all that, it was the game of how do we, we're doing a show with this person, how do we kick, we gotta kick their butt. We gotta show them what we got. And it was always that competitive nature and trying to outdo the last thing that we did.
And all the while you've got a label and management constantly on you about something. "Why'd you cut your hair?" Or "You're singing this song too high.” "Can you lower the key?" "Stop singing all those licks in the solo section." "Don't close your eyes when you're singing." And "Oh, by the way, we need another 'Rebecca Lynn.'" Okay.
There's this kind of a pressure cooker kind of thing, so I knew at that point we were on top of the world and poised to, I don't know, maybe become an arena act or moving toward that. We needed great songs. And I felt like we had some great songs on this record. And I did sing 'em too high. I was starting to really push my own envelope to see what I was capable of. And nobody told me-
Well, there was one person that did say to me, "Just 'cause you can sing that high doesn't mean you should," and it was Steve Wariner who said that to me. He goes, "Just because you can sing that high doesn't mean you have to."
And I had just started to, I was stressed out, not sleeping well, radio is starting to not play the last couple singles that have come down the pike, and they're critiquing them, and I started to read articles about my voice. And certain people in my camp would say things about my voice, or "Are you okay?" And slowly but surely, it's still a mystery to me, there's still a great mystery around my voice that I think God is slowly revealing to me but may not reveal all of it, I don't know.
But I, I was touring, LeAnn Rimes and I did a big tour together in '98, and at the end of that tour, something started to happen with my voice. I did a little Christmas EP and we were finishing up the year in Vegas that year, and I started to slowly just, I could feel little things, shortness of breath or wow, I couldn't get to that place, and I started to experience a lot of anxiety.
So the following year, in '99, we had hundreds and hundreds of dates. We gotta keep everybody's rent paid. So over the course of the next three months of that new year in '99, my voice just grinded to a halt, and it was just unbearable, I mean to the point of I couldn't produce a tone out of my voice. It was just (struggling sounds) like that.
So I finally, after grinding it out and going to vocal coach after vocal coach, and hypnotists, and everything I could think of. I was desperate, I was scared, I was losing this thing that gave me an identity, so it was scary because I was, I think-
Mark: Did you have anybody walking with you through this that you could really say...?
Andrew: A confidant?
Mark: Yeah, a friend, anybody?
Bryan: Not a close one.
Mark: That would understand anyway.
Andrew: So you felt alone.
Bryan: Very, very alone. And there were a couple people within my camp that actually said, "I'm not sure if your voice is ever gonna come back. You might wanna consider some other options." And I still hear them reverberating at the foot of my bed every day when I wake up.
My beautiful, amazing wife was on a soap at the time in New York City, and I thought- We didn't have kids yet, so I thought I'm gonna get in my car, and I'm just gonna go to New York City and hang out with my wife for as long as I want. Still had enough money in the bank I could do that.
And so I went up there, and I was chatting with her German makeup lady in the makeup room while she was on set, and all the way up there, I grew up in church, I didn't go to church a lot, and it was very nominal. Church camp was really where I felt the greatest presence of God. I had an aunt and uncle that were just amazing. They were a really great model of, not that they were perfect, but they were really doing the work. And so I think the first real major seeds were planted in some of those summers with my cousins. So I kind of equate my whole story to Proverbs 22:6. I came back to what I knew.
So I asked this German lady in the makeup room, I said, "Where do you go to church?" And I can't remember her name, was like Glenda or something like that, and she said, "Oh yeah, I go to the church on 92nd Amsterdam. You have to go. It's amazing. Diverse and beautiful music and great." And so I just felt, I felt like we needed to go.
So Erika and I started going to this church, and I got plugged into this men's fellowship, and I started actually reading the Bible for the first time in my life. Actually reading it and trying to understand it, and God slowly began to really reveal himself to me, and reveal big words that I never really thought much about, like grace and all that kind of stuff. And I started to really wake up and understand it's so much bigger than what I make and all this stuff.
Did you have a question?
Andrew: No, I love what you're saying there.
Did it begin to reorient that identity? It sounds like an identity crisis. What you said, if your identity is in what you do and then that closes shop without your control, it sounds as if your body was responding to what your emotions (indistinct).
Mark: Sounds like the ego died a little.
Andrew: Right. Yeah.
Bryan: And it hurt.
Mark: Yeah, it hurts.
Bryan: Painful.
Mark: That ego don't like to go.
Bryan: Painful.
Andrew: So was that spiritual awakening a way of finding a true identity? Was that part of that?
Bryan: For sure.
Andrew: What did you discover in that, spiritually speaking?
Bryan: 'Cause men, if you ask a man anything about themselves, they start talking about their career.
Andrew: Career. (laughing)
Bryan: 'Cause that's it.
Mark: You're so good I forgot to eat.
Bryan: Oh, it's okay, go for it. And not, when Erika-
Mark: That's when you know the conversation's good, when you forget to eat.
Bryan: When Erika was done at the show there, I had all, we had always had our place here, and we got plugged into a church and really under the wing of some really great people that helped us to kind of start really walking and walking it out.
But fast forward, I'm on the right path, very flawed, still working out a lot of stuff in the dirt.
Mark: Your voice is not any better, right, or is it? What happens?
Bryan: I still to this day, I've gone through bitterness toward God, even after getting saved-
Mark: So it's still gone? It's gone.
Bryan: I deal with. I'm not in a state of bitterness now, but I have been through phases where I'm like, "Lord, what is up? If this is my livelihood and this is how I'm to provide, continue to provide for my kids, what gives?"
And like I said, there's been a great mystery around my voice and what happened, and what's continuing. How I do have new discoveries along the way. I think that some of it has been potentially neurological, maybe possibly due to- I've studied so much on my own situation. Maybe due to trauma from being a kid, some abuse and some having an alcoholic father. I see a lot of correlations to that kind of stuff, which I don't doubt has played into it.
I dove off of a boat at Lake Texoma when I was a kid, I was 14, and it was only two foot of water, and I just… I mean, just all kinds of little things that you think about 'cause you're trying to put the pieces back together. And then on the, the physical side, I don't think there's anything wrong with me. I don't think there's anything wrong.
Andrew: So it's a connect here somewhere.
Bryan: Listening to my voice, there's nothing wrong with my voice. I mean, just the past few months, I've discovered that I'm not, I'm exhaling all of my air before I even start to sing. And I think it's, there's some kind of little mental mechanism that's coming from fear that's kind of kicking in right before I, you know?
Andrew: And that can be a learned- I mean, I'm learning a lot about fear, and I have a family member who's dealing with some chronic issues that could stem from fear. We all have anxiety that drive and shuts us down in different ways.
It's amazing to me, that would be the question, how do you, that's like dealing with yourself, our humanity, the fact that, like you're saying, my voice, I think it's fine, I don't think it's a physical thing, I think it's coming from my brain or my heart and this anxiety and fear. Does that ever, I mean what do we do with that? Do you get better after that? That's some core stuff.
Mark: And how are you dealing with it? It's not back. Are you still singing?
Bryan: Well, check it out, this is so weird. It's, the cliche answer is to trust God, and that's very hard to do sometimes. But I'm trying. I'm trying to stay strong in my faith and continue on and know at the end of the day that he's got this. And that's a tough one for men especially.
Andrew: And for creatives too, I think.
Bryan: Yeah.
Andrew: To lose an aspect of how they're created.
Bryan: The issue that happens live is sometimes if I hit one snag, my mental, it will-
Andrew: Sets you off.
Bryan: It's just like it- You go into protective mode, and you can't undo it because you're tasking, you're engaging with people, and you're trying to be...
And part of the battle too is I have to constantly remind myself, "Dude, you're not Bryan White, 22. Let it go, let it go. You got gray hair now."
So I have to, so I'll battle that too because I-
Mark: Have you lowered things?
Bryan: Oh yeah, oh yeah.
Mark: Don't be proud about that.
Bryan: Well, Vince, I was, Vince Gill came to my house one time, and God bless him for coming and doing this. He played mandolin on a track for me at my house. And we talked about this same thing. And he said "Man, why don't you just lower your keys a half step? Just tune your guitar a half step down," and that really did help me a lot. Sometimes I'll tune it down a whole step if I've got a week full of stuff and my voice is just torn up.
Mark: And who knows? Nobody knows the difference.
Bryan: Right.
Andrew: It's an internal thing. There's such a thing, I think especially as men, but I think women do this too. I've heard from women in their households comparing with other people's kids and how they decorate their home. Everybody has this internal pressure to be something that I don't think on a bigger perspective God's asking us.
Mark: Well, when you lower your expectations, life is a lot easier to deal with.
Andrew: There's true religion.
Food for the Hungry Sponsorship Message
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Visit Dinner-Conversations.com for DVDs, CDs, and more!
Mark: Did you know that at dinner-conversations.com, we have a store. We have been around long enough to produce products.
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Leigh Cappillino and Bryan White singing “What I Already Know”
Bryan: Well, first of all, it's an honor to sit here with you and play this song. I remember really vividly the day we wrote this song. It was Michael Boggs and myself, and a good friend of mine by the name of Scotty Alexander. And we're all, Michael's the young one, Scotty and I, I would arguably say that we are middle-aged, and we were kind of having a middle-aged conversation with the younger guy, great songwriter, Michael. And we were just talking about our struggles, and Michael just out of nowhere just started kind of going. He even said that line, he said, "Sometimes I just feel like we just need a little bit more faith to believe what we already know." And it's literally one of those moments where, when he said that, it just kind of started flowing out of all of us.
And it came from this really, really primal place for us, and it was one of those days where you, when you were finished you were like, "Wow, this is a great song because it's- We can always have it in our arsenal for ourselves to help us." And it wasn't, "Oh man, who's gonna cut this?" It was, "What a neat piece of music that God has given us that we can continue to encourage ourself with."
Leigh: And now encourage a whole lot of other people 'cause when I heard it for the first time it just hit me in a really, really interesting place. And I'm probably the same age as you are, and growing up in a church, and you still, it doesn't mean you're equipped every single day, every single moment, and every single situation to just persevere like you're a superhero. You still need to be reminded of those things that are the foundational products of your faith.
Bryan: Absolutely, without question.
Life has been a teacher, an enemy and a friend
And at times I've been a sinner and a saint
I've been known to lose my temper, my patience and my pride
But I've never lost the need to pray
Lord, I don't need some truth reveal to me
Or some sacred thing to hold
Well, all I really need is just a little more faith
To believe what I already know
You said You'd never leave me
You'd walk right by my side
Right now all I feel is alone
Cause I can't see Your angels watching over me
Oh, but Jesus loves me, the Bible tells me so
Lord, I don't need some mountain moved for me
Or some miracle to behold
All I really need is just a little more faith
To believe what I already know
I know there are much bigger problems than mine
But Lord if You get the time
I don't need the waters to part for me
Or to see those streets of gold
All I really need is just a little more faith
To believe what I already know
Yeah, the secret to walking down life's road
Is to believe what I already know
Mark: (indistinct) Bryan White.
Andrew: Fast forward even to, what was it, five years ago or so, we were talking about this before we started rolling, about your song "God Gave Me You," which was on that record we were talking about from 16, 17 years ago that became this huge hit in the Philippines.
Bryan: I feel like an actor that's trying to time out my next bite, my next bite while you're, 'cause I don't know when you're gonna stop.
Andrew: I talk a long time. I don't stop.
Mark: And he will edit greatly. I mean, really, when you see this, you'll think it's PBS.
Andrew: I even edit myself.
Mark: They have me out of the picture.
Andrew: Really it's an interesting one on one, the final piece.
Mark: I'm just here to eat. I love the food.
Andrew: But the "God Gave Me You" thing, here's what I wanna say about that. This became, for those that don't know, this song of yours became literally, I mean, a game changer in the Philippines. I mean, how random.
Number one, you're playing arena shows now in the Philippines because you're now this musical celebrity because of this song, but it's in a different part of your life by that point in time. Do you feel like the resources with going through some of this, where is my identity, what I do is not who I am, so starting to discover that and find your voice on a grander scale, did that give you this kind of toolkit?
Then you blew up in the Philippines and you are having- I mean, I saw videos that went viral of you. I mean, literally people are just mobbing you.
Mark: Did you handle that different? That's the question.
Bryan: Well, I cried a lot when I was there because I couldn't believe that that was happening somewhere else to start with, and the fact that it felt familiar was, it reminded me of my youth, and it was just a very surreal, emotional-
Mark: Did you enjoy it this time?
Bryan: I did because I really felt grateful. Not that I wasn't grateful at 22-, 23-years-old, but I was really grateful as a dad. I was grateful as a- I know how much poverty is over there, and I know how much people struggle over there. There's so much trafficking and so many kids that are abandoned there. And I knew about that prior to going over because of my brother doing work over there and so many people that knew about the Philippines.
So all those things playing in, it was just like this giant mesh in my head of all the things that I knew up to that point. It was all very emotional around every little corner.
Andrew: Does it feel like this grand, gracious gesture maybe even from God to say-
Bryan: I'd be lying if I said I didn't feel a little twinge of that.
Mark: It's almost embarrassing to admit that though, isn't it? 'Cause you think he is so much more gracious than you can even talk about, 'cause then someone might think he's playing favorites, but I think he plays favorites to everybody, don't you?
Bryan: I agree, I agree.
Mark: He makes you feel like you're his favorite.
Andrew: And it's not about celebrity. Maybe some people will be like, "Well, this is not relatable because I don't have a celebrity platform." It's in each of our careers, in each of our lives, in each of our families. There are these transcendent moments, I think, where God is showing us we're his favorite.
Mark: We almost see through the veil a little bit.
Andrew: Think about your kids-
Bryan: Enough about me. Let's talk about-
Andrew: No.
Mark: No, you're fascinating.
Andrew: You have two sons, and they're teenagers now, right?
Bryan: Mm-hmm.
Andrew: So they're not far away, 10 years from being in their own, head long into their own careers. They've got the male trait. They're probably gonna be somewhat obsessed with their careers, what they're doing, or have a lot of passion and motivation towards that. How have you discovered with your identity? Are you parenting them through what you're learning about how, "Hey, boys, your identity's not in what you do? It's important what you do, but that's not who you are."
Bryan: I'm trying my best to impart to them everything that I've learned through trial and error, and I did not have a perfect upbringing. I had a lot of love but a lot of dysfunction too that my brother and I came out of. So yes, I'm trying to every day.
The main thing is I didn't hear- I heard "I love you" a lot from my mom and from my grandparents. I didn't hear "I love you" a lot from the men in my life, and that's one thing, I don't let a day go by without letting them know, "Hey, I love you and I'm proud of you."
Mark: Good for you.
Bryan: My mom, the women, did that really well in my life, but I didn't hear that a lot from the men in my life. I did, but not-
Mark: My dad had the revelation that you did because his dad and mom didn't hug, didn't kiss-
Bryan: That generation, yeah.
Mark: And my dad saw his best friend get hugged and kissed by his father before he got on the train for them to go to college, and my father decided right then, "I'm gonna hug and kiss my kids." So we never knew not knowing it, and I'm older than you. Your parents probably are somewhere between me and my dad. I would think they just must not have gotten it either.
Bryan: Well, my granddad was not outspoken, definitely was a very loving guy. I mean, just great, great guy, hard worker, but just didn't, just didn't go there. He just, it was an uncomfortable thing to really wear your heart on your sleeve for him, and my dad was kind of the same way. The only time he would get real emotional was when he was drunk. Then he would tell you how much he loved you. But my dad would have been 64 this year, and my mom is about 62, so I have pretty young parents. My mom had me when she was 17, so...
Andrew: Well, simple "I love yous" from a father in a child, I think, can dispel throughout their lives or can help them move past that they have to prove themselves, that what they do has to be their whole being. Those simple "I love you," your boys will carry with them for the rest of their life. That knowledge when they're in tough places, when their place is having trouble finding-
Mark: Do they say it back?
Bryan: Yeah, they do. My youngest is, he's very vocal about it. I can't leave his bedside without him giving me a kiss on the cheek before I go downstairs. Justin is, he's not as outspoken about it, but he definitely says it too for sure.
Another thing I was thinking about is, for a long time, maybe a decade ago, it's hard to believe that this, my thing continues on and has been going on for as long as it has, and we've all got our things that we're all struggling with, but for a long time, I was really scared to sit somewhere like this in an interview type of thing and talk about those kind of things because it is my livelihood, and what if some promoter sees it and goes, "Crap, I'm not, I'm not calling Bryan White."
Mark: That crossed my mind too.
Bryan: So that was a big fear of mine too that caused me to just kind of brush it under the carpet.
Mark: Well, how did you jump that hurdle?
Bryan: I remember what God says, and it's we overcome the enemy by the word of our testimony and by the blood of the lamb. So how can I go wrong, how can I go wrong after that?
Mark: So what was harder, the career or the husband, family thing? Being a good father-
Andrew: And a good husband.
Mark: What's the scariest or hardest?
Bryan: Well, I don't think any dad thinks they're the greatest dad in the world. They just, 'cause it's so humbling. I think I have a great relationship with my kids and my wife, and we're all, we're doing our very best, and we have a great time together. My wife's a saint. I'd say it's probably harder to navigate through career.
Mark: Do you like where your career is now? Where would you like it to be?
Bryan: Nobody ever asks me that question.
Andrew: We got the Bryan White exclusive.
Bryan: And immediately, I wanna go to some politically correct answer-
Andrew: Don't.
Bryan: Some cliche answer.
Andrew: Don't say, "I'm happy with it."
Mark: Well, hush and let him talk.
Bryan: I think there's a level of, I think there's really a reservoir still in me that is holding my greatest, but I'm still, still trying to figure out the mystery. I think if the levee breaks in that, or the light goes off or something happens where I feel like I can dip into my 92%, 93%, I think I can see maybe, maybe my best record ever in the future, if God allows that to happen. But maybe he doesn't want that to happen, I don't know.
Mark: And you're still young, really.
Bryan: Thanks, I appreciate that.
Mark: I mean, you are. If you're not, you look it. You do have probably a good 10, 15 of a career left, I would think.
Bryan: I can think of a lot of things that I'd like to see in a better place career-wise, but I'm very grateful for where I am currently.
Andrew: Well, we're thankful for your voice.
Mark: Oh man, I'm glad you-
Bryan: Thanks, man.
Mark: I was kind of getting scared on this story, 'cause I don't know your story, and I was thinking, "Oh no," 'cause I was thinking, "Okay, he's still singing. Oh no, maybe he isn't still singing." I mean, I was with you. And I'm so glad you're okay.
Bryan: Thanks, man.
Mark: Thank you for watching Dinner Conversations. Don't forget to subscribe, and then ring that bell and get all notifications.
Andrew: And don't forget to like us or dislike us. Don't do that. Leave comments, talk about what's resonating in your life from these conversations, and join us next time for Dinner Conversations with--
Mark: Mark Lowry.
Andrew: And Andrew Greer.
Mark: Turning the light on.
Andrew: One question at a time.
Mark: Dinner Conversations is brought to you by Food for the Hungry, an incredible relief and community development organization, serving those with physical and spiritual needs around the world for 50 years this year.
Andrew: Help us as we help our friends at Food for the Hungry save thousands of lives and Ethiopia today by considering a generous gift.
Mark: A gift that will be matched 22 times.
Andrew: Your one-time gift will make an eternal difference. So visit fh.org/dinner to give now.
Nothing But The Truth featuring Matthew West
Matthew West is known for writing and recording number hit song after hit song after hit song. And though he had written truth-telling songs for years, he had yet to own up to the truth that though he was playing the role of a "professional Christian" he had yet to accept his true identity as a child of God. Hear Matthew's honest conversations plus a couple of his songs acoustic exclusively on this episode of Dinner Conversations!
Matthew West is known for writing and recording number hit song after hit song after hit song. And though he had written truth-telling songs for years, he had yet to own up to the truth that though he was playing the role of a "professional Christian" he had yet to accept his true identity as a child of God. Hear Matthew's honest conversations plus a couple of his songs acoustic exclusively on this episode of Dinner Conversations!
Transcript
Mark: Dinner Conversations is brought to you by Food for the Hungry, an incredible relief and community development organization serving those with physical and spiritual needs around the world for 50 years this year.
Andrew: Help us as we help our friends at Food for the Hungry save thousands of lives in Ethiopia today by considering a generous gift.
Mark: A gift that will be matched 22 times.
Andrew: Your one-time gift will make an eternal difference. So visit fh.org/dinner to give now.
Mark: I met Matthew West actually over the phone. We had a mutual friend, and she was really helping him get his career started as a songwriter-
Andrew: Years ago.
Mark: Probably 20 years ago. And we talked on the phone briefly, and he still remembers what I said, 'cause what happened was we didn't talk about this in the interview. They were wanting him to use… His record label was wanting him to go into Christian as a way to go into secular.
Andrew: Oh, okay.
Mark: And I said on the phone, I said, "Well, you can go, you can cross over as long as you take the cross over." And he remembered that. He still remembers it.
Andrew: Really?
Mark: I remember that.
Andrew: Yeah. I've heard you say that.
Mark: Millions of times, but it's the truth. Don't go if you can't take Jesus. And he has not. He's stayed in Christian music, and he's been very successful. And this new song-
Andrew: "Truth Be Told"
Mark: "Truth Be Told." Oh my goodness, I love honest songs. Don't you?
Andrew: Yeah, and Matthew's an honest person as well. He was talking to us about how to be vulnerable, how to be authentic. He talks about his history as what he would call being a professional Christian and really growing into having a relationship with God and beginning to discover his identity, not based on what he does but just based on him being a child of God. It is a really, really fun and good conversation.
Mark: And there's one seat left at the table, and it's yours. So let's join the conversation.
Andrew: That's very southern of you.
Mark: Thrilled you're here because you are one of my favorite songwriters.
Andrew: He's serious. He's serious about that. That is not some kind of platitude.
Matthew: Well, cheers to that. Thank you very much for those kind words.
Andrew: I wasn't saying… For me. (laughs)
Matthew: Well, thanks Andrew.
Mark: And I love the new song, which right now slipped my brain again.
Andrew: "Truth Be Told"
Mark: "Truth Be Told"
Matthew: I love it so much that--
Andrew: Yeah, you're not the only one.
Matthew: I can't remember it.
Andrew: You're not the only one.
Mark: You wait till you're 62. You've got a few years to go buddy. The memory comes and goes.
Andrew: But I was surprised this morning. I sent him the story behind the song that you did on "Truth Be Told."
Matthew: Okay.
Andrew: I said, "Hey, just start watching.” So he was like, "I've seen it. I love that song." That's very rare for Mark over here.
Matthew: No, Mark texted me on March 6th of 2021, telling me how much you love that song.
Mark: Yeah, I did.
Andrew: Did you respond?
Matthew: I did.
Mark: He actually did.
Matthew: And then he texted me something else, a video that I don't know… You know how sometimes– This is my defense. But sometimes you'll get a text message and you'll just completely miss it. That happens, right?
Andrew: Sure. And you'll check it and miss it. Yes.
Matthew: But like if I'm getting--
Mark: I mean, it hurt my feelings, but don't worry about it.
Matthew: So he followed up with a text, in true Mark fashion, that was something hilarious that I totally missed until I got here. He's like, "I sent you a video. Did it offend you?" It was a pastor saying...
Mark: Some pastor. Yeah. He was trying to say, "Dear Heavenly Father." And he said, "Dear holy farts."
Andrew: Seriously?
Mark: Cause he meant to say, "Heavenly Father, our hearts." So he kinda-- "Dear holy farts."
Matthew: Dear holy farts.
Mark: And I said, "Oh Lord, I have offended him."
Andrew: But it is kinda right up your alley.
Matthew: If you knew me well enough, which after this you will, you know you can't offend me. So...
Mark: And it's so interesting that we have mutual friends, Kathy Ward and of course Cindy Wilt going back. Oh my gosh, what a treasure she was.
Matthew: Cindy Wilt was a… I feel like I'm gonna spend the whole interview talking with my mouth full.
Andrew: That's fine. There's a couple networks that hate it.
Matthew: Cindy Wilt was a dear friend of both of ours. And she was instrumental in helping my career launch. Like she spent her whole life being a champion of others. So for all of the ones who are on stage entertaining or, in your case, entertaining big time, right? Making people laugh and singing with you. We're the ones in front of the camera, but there's these amazing people behind the scenes, just like the people behind these cameras. They spend their whole lives propping and lifting up and helping other people achieve their dreams. And Cindy was one of those people for us, and she passed away way too soon.
Andrew: When did you first realize that there's a lot of people that make this machine go? Or that to realize your dreams, it's gonna require a team of folks and how do you properly honor those? That's true for anybody. You know what I mean? But when did that first come into focus for you?
Matthew: Well, she was a big part of it. And I think the first time that-- I would say I've taken that for granted more times than I've stopped to really acknowledge and appreciate that, if I'm being honest. Maybe it'll make me feel better to think that a lot of us would do that where it's just, we're just so focused on doing life that we rarely stop long enough to think about who's helping me make it through. Like if I stop long enough to go, "Wow."
Like for example, my wife is out of town this week. I'm in charge of my daughters' schedules. And it took a few days with my wife being out of town to go, "Wait a minute, so this kid goes to this camp and this kid goes here, but I gotta go hang out with these guys and have dinner and interview." And I'm like, "Oh, what am I doing?" So now I'm going, "Oh, okay." It's just that little reminder that I couldn't do this without Emily.
Andrew: Well, it's also a reminder of who are the people that can't do it without us. And are we serving people in that way? You know, I think that's kind of interesting.
Talk about the song "Truth Be Told," because we were talking about this today, Mark and I, and was this the year? Was it 2020 when you started to kind of come to this realization that who am I is a...
Matthew: I'm not saved.
Andrew: To boil it down. That's what I wanted to say.
Mark: The song is basically saying, "I want to be real," right?
Matthew: Yes.
Mark: And I'm not always fine.
Matthew: It's about honesty and authenticity, easy for you to say, and how hard that is to find in our world right now. But truthfully how hard that can be to find in the story of my life, right?
In fact, so one other thing I wanted to say about what came to my mind as you were talking about the people behind the scenes helping is at our friend Cindy's memorial service. I don't know if you remember this, but you know how they have like pallbearers? The people who were carrying her casket out were all women who were serving time at the women's prison that she went to behind the scenes every week without fail. And she served them, and they had rehabilitated and had come to pay their respects to her.
And that was a moment where I remember thinking, "Here's this lady whose greatest legacy is how much she lifted other people up." And I got really, truth be told, I got really convicted to think, "All right, Matthew, who have you championed other than your own cause?" Right? And so that was a big moment for me to think about that.
And so speaking of honesty and authenticity, like I think that's part of my story. It's like, man, when you gotta dream to make music, it's like there's nothing gonna stop you, not even helping other people sometimes, right.
Andrew: Yeah. I mean, you're being very honest. Yeah.
Matthew: Exactly. So I think just in every respect, that song "Truth Be Told" is me kind of like crying out to myself to say like, "Just because you're in front of a camera all the time, just because you're on stage, just because you're a preacher's kid, just because you know how to say the right things, quote the right scriptures, write the right songs, and do the right shows, like the world doesn't need to see this pretender that you can easily dial up."
What the world's really gonna be impacted by is an authentically flawed human being, who's okay maybe not being put together all the time.
“What the world’s really gonna be impacted by is an authentically flawed human being.”
Mark: How close is authenticity to exhibitionism? I mean, when you can't… When you're saying you can't expose. I mean, you can also share too much of yourself.
Matthew: With too many.
Mark: And in one night. You have one night. You can't do major surgery in one night. You can do a little bit, a little nip and tuck, with the audience. But if you were to-
Matthew: That's actually the name of my tour, The Nip and Tuck. It's funny you mention that.
Mark: I am anointed.
Andrew: What level do you be authentic?
Mark: How far can you go? I mean, when does exposing yourself to your audience, which is brilliant to do. When you show your scars, they'll show theirs, right? We know that.
Andrew: That's weird.
Mark: Well, my dad was in prison. So my dad at 76 went to prison.
Matthew: Wow.
Mark: I couldn't get up and talk about that every night.
Matthew: Because it was too painful for you?
Mark: Too painful for me and there was no solution. I don't like to talk about something till it's fixed.
Andrew: Well, the question is-
Matthew: That's a great point.
Andrew: Okay.
Matthew: Because I think… This is what I've discovered in my songwriting is that it's way easier to wait until you've made it through a struggle in your life and then write about it, looking back from the past tense, because you've seen Romans at work. You've seen how God, "Oh, he did indeed work all things for the good."
But I will also say that sometimes there's a surface level of communication of the gospel when you only write from the past tense, by looking back and saying, "Look what the Lord has done." That's great. But there's also something powerful about Paul saying, "I pleaded with God, like three times." The thorn is still in his flesh while he's writing the new text.
Andrew: I don't know what God is gonna do, except what he's already done.
Mark: Yeah, that's my point exactly. But he never told us what the thorn was.
Matthew: Never told us what it was. And just like with the song "Truth Be Told," like I'm not necessarily unpacking--
Andrew: All the details.
Matthew: All the.... Because that's as an individual, here's the deal.
Andrew: Well, you don't have to do it on stage, but… That's what we're here for, right?
Mark: Unpack, brother.
Matthew: For individuals though, to go like, "Hey." Knowing the time and the place. And especially as people in front of a camera, like here's what I would say. This song tells the story of the guy who is supposed to always have all the answers, acknowledging, you know what, I need to see a counselor. I need-- You know what?
Andrew: Professional help.
Matthew: Exactly. Like maybe having those, just being honest about the fact that I don't have everything put together, that I freak out in the middle of a pandemic and wonder how I'm gonna take care of my family, and that… Do you know what I mean?
And so I think there's power in being vulnerable in the way that you communicate your message, but there's also a time and a place. And I think in everybody's life, you've also had those conversations with people. Sometimes people come up to you at a show and say, "Hey, nice to meet you." And then just likes spill the deepest, darkest secrets of their life. And it's like, that's not the point either, right? The point is to realize that God is uniquely going to work all things for the good in your life.
So I'll give you a great example. Like a woman named Jenny, she shared her story with me in a very discreet way. She wrote a letter, and she heard me talking at a conference about how there's power… I talk a lot about how there's power in our story, but we might be surprised by which chapter God wants to speak the loudest through. And sometimes it might be those chapters that are, truth be told, less than put together. We always think about...
I talk a lot about how... I go, "God, use my good stuff." And God's saying, "I know about your good stuff. I gave it to you. Give me all the rest."
Mark: And it ain't that good.
Matthew: Yeah, watch him be… Exactly.
So Jenny writes to me about how a scared teenage kid got pregnant, the boyfriend didn't love her, took off. She's scared of the judgment from her family, her church in Austin, Texas. And so she decided to take care of her problem, right? And she chose to terminate her pregnancy, and it's haunted her for all these years since, right? She'd been married for 27 years, never told her husband. But deep down, there's this part of her story that just...
When I was talking at that conference about your story, there was something that brought that way up. And it was something she dealt with every single day. So she decided to just tell me about it, right? So I wrote a song for her, and I called her, and she didn't expect me to call her. And I said, "Why of all people would you share your story with me?" And she said, "Well, I never thought you'd actually read it. I just needed to set that secret free."
Mark: Oh wow.
Matthew: And she started crying. She said, "But I'm glad you did because secrets are a heavy thing to carry." And I thought, well, there's power in that.
Now here's where the story gets really good. She starts to realize that maybe this part of her story is not the shame that needs to hide back with the skeletons in her closet. But rather, maybe just maybe, this could be an empowering moment for her story. So now she volunteers all the time at the crisis pregnancy center in Austin, Texas. And they put her with young women who are coming through those doors, wondering if they too should take care of their problem or if they should take heart and take hold of a new life and dare to believe that God's gonna help them through that process. So I love seeing that.
And that to me can come from… Songs like "Truth Be Told" are helping people go, "All right. What if I got honest about what's going on in my life?"
Andrew: Well, it's a great example of what you're saying that authenticity at a certain level doesn't have to have all the nitty gritty and can still inspire and motivate others as well as ourselves to do the things maybe, wrestle with things, talk about the things with the people that matter.
Mark: His questions are real long.
Andrew: Well, I'm actually having a conversation, but-
Matthew: My answers are real long. So when I answer, you eat.
Mark: No, we love 'em.
Andrew: That's right. That's right. So it's a shared experience.
But the identities we hide behind, like you think about Jenny, this woman and probably the identity of kind of shame or even that abortion became her identity even secretly. Let's talk about that for a second because you wrote a book called "Hello, My Name Is."
Matthew: Yep. All about identities.
Andrew: All about identities, and the identities that are barriers for us in our relationship with God, or as identifying as a brother and sister of Jesus or a child, a son and daughter, of God. So for you, what has that identity been that has been a barrier in your relationship with God?
Matthew: Like false identities?
Mark: Yeah, yeah.
Andrew: Yeah, yeah. To the true identity.
Matthew: So what's interesting is the song "Truth Be Told" was... Normally, like my song ideas inspire my book ideas, but I was writing a chapter about the false identities and about authenticity really. And one of the chapters was talking about, "Hello, my name is pretender." And I talk about my upbringing as a preacher's kid and this ability that I had at a very young age to kind of put on a show, right? I literally remember… And this is and this is me being honest, that there's been moments as a kid in the front row where I'm like, if I raise my hand during this slow song in the worship service, like the parents behind me are gonna nudge their kid. Like they're gonna think, "Man, why can't my kid..."
And sometimes it was placed on me to be the example. I remember getting kicked out of the Christian Boy Scouts, which was called Royal Rangers, because they expected me to open with a prayer every week. And one week I just like stood up and had my William Wallace rebellion and said, "I'm not gonna pray. And you can't make me." Was it because I didn't want to pray? No, it's just because I didn't like that the leader was saying, "You need to set the example. You're the preacher's kid."
Mark: Horrible.
Matthew: And so I think there's that. But so as far as me, that chapter that I was writing wound up inspiring the song "Truth Be Told." I'm going, "Okay, let me start to peel back some of my own layers.” Like what, what am I? And I think a lot of times, for me, it's like the fear of failure.
Like I've done a lot of digging into the Enneagram which I used to think was like, I was like, what is that? What's going on?
Andrew: Some of our viewers can tell you what they think about it.
Mark: I still kinda think that.
Matthew: You think it's weird?
Mark: Well, I'm old. I don't understand it.
Matthew: Well, I'll tell you what.
Andrew: He's not of that threshold.
Mark: I don't know what that means either.
Andrew: I don't know either.
Matthew: Some of it felt like it was reading my mail though, and when I discovered, like, when I read a certain number, so it was like the number three. And I read that description of like, I was like, okay, this is the performer. This is the guy who, he's desperately afraid of being a failure, or like if he has number one song, he's convinced that it's gonna be the last number one song. And so he's gotta work even harder, right? And then just this relentless...
And I think that maybe one of the names that I run from that I'm convinced is gonna be on my name tag at some point is failure. And some people will probably look at me and go… In fact, my wife looks at me and is like, "What's the matter with you? What the heck's the matter?" Or my team would go...
Mark: How are you working on that?
Matthew: I don't know. I think I just need to sit here and talk with you guys. Well, I'll give you a great example.
So I'll never forget. I got a text message. This was years ago. My brother was managing me, and this is probably what led to us ending that.
Andrew: How did that work out?
Matthew: But he's like, "I got great news. You got nominated for a Grammy award." That was the text message. I texted back, "Which category?" He texted me back, "Christian song of the year." My response, "Not album?" His response, "What's wrong with you? I quit." But I think that's been a struggle for me.
Andrew: Interesting.
Matthew: And it's not because I'm ungrateful. I think there's just something deep.
Andrew: It's like hard to relax and just receive it.
Mark: Who are you competing with? I mean, Bill Gaither told one time, "I've really only ever competed with myself." Now I don't know if that's really true or not, but he tries to outdo himself. Is there anything wrong with that? I mean, you want to outdo your last album.
Andrew: What if it never stops?
Matthew: I think, for me, the challenge is why is it so hard for me to rest in my God-given identity? And what's interesting is like, when you listen to a lot of my songs, even like you mentioned my book, "Hello My Name Is." It's a book about identity. One of the biggest songs of my career is about taking hold of the most significant title you'll ever have, which is 1 John chapter three, verse one. "How great is the love of the father who lavished on us that we should be called children of God." And that is what we are.
It's easy for me to preach that from the stage, but it is so hard for me to rest in that off stage, to go like, "I'm never a failure in God's eyes." So whether I'm competing against myself, like Bill Gaither used to say, or other artists or whatever, I don't know. I would say if anything, it's probably I'm trying to outrun that word getting on my name tag. And the enemy, when I'm feeling weak, like Satan will try to make me feel like, "No, that's..." And that can be failure career wise, that can be failure in terms of my spiritual life, right?
I mean, I'm the guy who, like I'll beat myself up. If my goal is to… We were talking about reading the Bible through from top to bottom. I'll count the days that I'm reading in a row, but if I miss a day.
Andrew: It's over.
Matthew: Then I'm like… That's why I sing so many songs about grace because I rarely give it to myself. And that's a struggle for me.
Matthew West singing “Truth Be Told”
Lie number one you're supposed to have it all together
And when they ask how you're doing
Just smile and tell them, "Never better"
Lie number two, everybody's life is perfect except yours
So keep your messes and your wounds
And your secret’s safe with you behind closed doors
Truth be told
The truth is rarely told now
I say I'm fine, yeah I'm fine oh I'm fine, hey I'm fine but I'm not
I'm broken
And when it's out of control I say it's under control but it's not
And you know it
I don't know why it's so hard to admit it
When being honest is the only way to fix it
There's no failure, no fall
There's no sin you don't already know
So let the truth be told
There's a sign on the door, says, "Come as you are" but I doubt it
'Cause if we lived like it was true, every Sunday morning pew would be crowded
But didn't you say the church should look more like a hospital
A safe place for the sick, the sinner and the scarred and the prodigals
Like me
Well, truth be told
The truth is rarely told
Oh am I the only one who says
I'm fine, yeah I'm fine oh I'm fine, hey I'm fine but I'm not
I'm broken
And when it's out of control I say it's under control but it's not
And you know it
I don't know why it's so hard to admit it
When being honest is the only way to fix it
There's no failure, no fall
There's no sin you don't already know
So let the truth be told
Can I really stand here unashamed
Knowing that you love for me won't change?
Oh God if that's really true
Then let the truth be told
I say I'm fine, yeah I'm fine oh I'm fine, hey I'm fine but I'm not
I'm broken
And when it's out of control I say it's under control but it's not
And you know it
I don't know why it's so hard to admit it
When being honest is the only way to fix it
There's no failure, no fall
There's no sin you don't already know
Yeah, I know
There's no failure, no fall
There's no sin you don't already know
So let the truth be told
Food for the Hungry Sponsorship Message
Mark: You can help save thousands of lives by giving a generous gift to Food for the Hungry today.
Andrew: In the rural Dera district of Ethiopia, families are experiencing high death rates in children under five due to preventable water-related diseases. They simply don't have access to clean water sources or the infrastructure to practice good health and hygiene.
Mark: Until now. We're talking latrines, Andrew. Your gift today will provide families in the Dera district with clean water, health and hygiene training, hand washing stations, and lifesaving latrines. And to add to the impact, your gift will be matched 22 times, 22 times.
Andrew: It’s a wonderful opportunity, Mark. Food for the Hungry is already laying the groundwork now to provide a safe place to live for hundreds of thousands of vulnerable children and their families in Ethiopia. I think of Jesus's own words in the Gospels where he says, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself." The people of Ethiopia, Mark, they matter to God. And so they matter to us too. Will you help us let them know they are important to God and to their neighbors across the ocean? That's us.
Mark: Give generously today at fh.org/dinner. We're so excited that you'll be giving that we wanna give something to you. We have several add-ons, we call them, where we will be maybe making a special phone call to a friend of yours, a video.
Andrew: It's a little video, that's right, as shoutout videos for your friend's birthday or for an anniversary, or maybe like a Zoom conversation with just you, Mark, and me, or even a Zoom party with you and some of your friends. All these are just a simple way to say thank you for the life-saving gift that you're giving to Food for the Hungry, for our friends in Ethiopia, at fh.org/dinner.
The Abide Bible Sponsorship Message
Mark: The Bible is the foundation of our theology. We would not know of Jesus if it weren't for the Bible. We wouldn't know about grace. We wouldn't know about how God cares for us. And there is a new Bible out called the Abide Bible. You know how Jesus said, if you abide in me as I abide in my father, and we abide in each other, and it's just a continual feed off each other. And what I like about this Bible is it's asking us to go deeper.
Andrew: Yeah, it's taking an approach to the Bible from being just simply informational to really being invitational. So there's a lot of prompts in this Bible to journal alongside Scriptures. It gives you opportunity to pray certain Scriptures at different seasons of your life, to meditate on the Scripture. There's beautiful artwork in here that's really cool cause it's not just like some kind of Sunday school artwork. They're using like da Vinci and beautiful pieces of classic art to really just get us to imagine, to be able to use all of our senses as we enter into Scripture, so that we really step into the story of Scripture, not just see it as words on a page but as part of a living, breathing active part of our lives. And you know what? I asked my brother one time, who's a pastor, I said, "Why is the Bible so important?" And he said exactly what you said a second ago, because it is the greatest written revelation of who God is. And so it gives us the opportunity to know God but also to be a part of God's story. That's the Abide Bible.
Mark: So go to abidebible.com to get your copy today.
Andrew: Do you think in the culture of the church? Okay. So we're kind of talking about American church here because that's where-
Matthew: I didn't expect you guys to make me be this honest, by the way. I wrote that song. I don't want to be that way.
Andrew: It's something we put in the water.
Matthew: Go ahead. I'm sorry.
Andrew: You know, is the church… Like would you believe that you're loved, no strings attached? Would you be more likely to believe that if the church looked different?
Matthew: Well, the second verse of that song "Truth Be Told" says, "There's a sign on the door. It says, 'Come as you are but I doubt it.' Cause if we lived like that was true, every Sunday morning pew would be crowded." Those words pack a little bit of a punch or a dig even. And so I don't know that I can blame the church for--
Mark: Well, we are the church.
Matthew: We are. Yeah.
Mark: So it's we must have done that, if that's the case.
Matthew: And I think, honestly, it's like I'm sure there are plenty of churches that… I mean, look, I think if a lot of people are honest, they feel like when they walk in the doors of the church, their tendency is to clean themselves up first. Right? That's why the chorus is so repetitive.
Like and when I talk at my shows… In fact, last night we were just rehearsing for our summer, and I was kind of going through like how do I want to communicate this message at the end of the night? It's like somebody in the crowd saying, coming into church and saying, "No, I'm fine. I'm not battling depression. I'm fine." No, I'm fine, or my marriage is fine. It's not on the verge of divorce, so I'm fine. This addiction is not an addiction." You know what I mean?
It's these things that, I don't know, it's like the church should be the place where you can come with your-
Andrew: Call like it is, right?
Matthew: Brokenness. But I do feel like there is, whether it's brought on by the church itself or just how the enemy plays tricks on our minds, like there's this feeling that maybe you can't really come as you are.
“The church should be the place where you can come with your brokenness.”
Andrew: Well, is that also an indicator that maybe those of us going to church don't believe what the church is or who the church is in Jesus? Like maybe we don't actually believe that God is enough.
Matthew: Yeah, that's… I mean.
Andrew: That that is the beginning and the end. Maybe we actually do believe that we're such a huge part of that, you know, our own salvation.
Mark: And also, your career, especially if your career- And I just took a bite before I did this. If your career is the standard of whether you're a failure or not, if your number ones, if your...
Matthew: Right.
Mark: Careers do this.
Matthew: Exactly.
Mark: They do, you know.
Andrew: Life does that.
Mark: And so yeah, life does that. So I don't know where along the way I just gave up, I mean, not gave up, but gave up on that race. I said, "I'm taking myself off this carousel."
Matthew: So how did you do that?
Mark: Just step aside.
Matthew: Because this is an opportunity for me to go, okay, if there's something to achieve in Christian music, in entertainment, in all this stuff, you've done it and do it continually.
Mark: Well, but I do it at my own pace now.
Matthew: But have you ever struggled with the thoughts that I have of going, like you're only as good as your last, your last sold out show, or your last-
Mark: I was 44 once.
Matthew: But was it as easy as going, "I'm taking myself off that treadmill?"
Mark: It was at a certain age, like two years ago. Well, the year before the COVID, I took the year off.
Andrew: The COVID, that's his age.
Matthew: Exactly, I like that.
Andrew: The YouTube.
Mark: And I took that whole year off. I just missed God by one year. I should have taken the next year.
Andrew: It'd have been easier.
Mark: But I had the best two years. I loved the plague. It didn't bother me a bit. I was in my Lazyboy.
Andrew: I mean, that's also a place of privilege. There's not a lot of people who can say-
Mark: Well, that's true. I will say that.
Matthew: I know what you mean.
Mark: But the thing is you've got children to raise, you're young. I've never had a child, don't understand that pressure, but I can imagine when the whole world shuts down and you've got babies to feed.
Matthew: Well, and I just think it's… What's interesting to me is I don't want my kids to see in me that like… Like the message that I'm all about with my kids, if there's something that I feel like I'm knocking out of the park as a dad, it's I will proudly say that, like I make my kids know that in my eyes, win or lose, they are nowhere near the word failure. Like they can do anything. They can accomplish anything. They're success in my eyes before they even walk out the door.
Mark: And that's how the Father looks at you.
Matthew: Exactly.
Mark: And you know what? Here's something I want- I don't know this- You can cut this out of the tape 'cause I've said it a million times, but it's so true.
The pot doesn't get to tell the Potter what the pot's worth. He thought you were worth dying for and how rude not to agree with him.
“The pot doesn’t get to tell the Potter what the pot’s worth.”
Matthew: Right.
Mark: How rude.
Matthew: Your finger's a little close to my face right now.
Andrew: You're like receiving it but looking at me.
Matthew: I'm like, "Is he gonna pick my nose right now?"
Mark: When it dawned me… "Life of the Beloved" by Henri Nouwen, "Life of the Beloved," that showed me that when I walk in the room, he's watching everything I do, not so he can step on me, because he loves me so much he can't take his eyes off me.
Matthew: And that's the thing.
Mark: And you love your children more than God loves you?
Andrew: And who speaks that to you? Is that your wife, is that your-
Matthew: Right.
Andrew: You know. And like what does your wife say about that? That's what I'm curious. You know, someone who's been...
Matthew: Well, I just wonder how many people… Because I think we all in our professions, like, we're trying to tell the world how much Jesus loves you, and like what you just said to me, like that is something like, I gotta receive that, and I love hearing that in that reminder. And that's exactly what I'm gonna get on stage in Iowa in a few nights and say to the people. But how many people on stage doing that are walking off having a hard time believing that in their own lives?
And maybe that's the full circle of the meaning of the song "Truth Be Told." It's just saying, "Lord, search me, know me.” Like I want to be able to receive the same messages that I'm sending to the world. And I think isn't it just like the enemy, isn't it just like the father of lies, to go right at the messenger with the antithesis of the message that he or she is delivering?
Mark: And if you know that's coming, usually on Monday after a great weekend, you can prepare for it.
Matthew: Yes.
Mark: Right? And you can remind yourself, I'm the image of God on legs.
You know, I remember sitting behind Jerry Falwell when I was at Liberty at a basketball game, and his redheaded boy came walking on the other side of the arena, and I saw Jerry Falwell's head turn off the game and follow that boy all across that arena. And I remember thinking, he's not watching him to see if he's gonna mess up. He's watching him because his image walked in, the apple of his eye walked in. And I have to believe-
Matthew: I love that.
Mark: That God is that crazy about us, if he's the perfect father. The reason why you love your children is a broken image of what God thinks of you.
Matthew: That's right. Yeah.
Mark: And you just gotta remind yourself. And don't you think the more you tell that audience, the more you believe it?
Matthew: Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah. And, but here's the thing too, is like, if my daughters see in me the inability to, like if they see in me this drive... 'Cause it's funny. I was saying to my daughter yesterday, my oldest daughter, I was asking her, I was like, "What are some of the things that I do that encourage you?" And then I asked-
Mark: What a great question.
Matthew: Well, I got it from pastor. I got it from a pastor who said he was taking some inventory. And then you ask the other, what are some of the things I do that discourage you? And I remember one of the things my oldest daughter said, she's like, "You work really hard. And that encourages me to like work hard too. And you always tell me that I can." She said, "When I came to you and said, 'I think I want to try lacrosse,' you said, 'Let's go to the store. Let's get the things.'" You know what I mean?
But one of the things she commented was how hard I work, and I just want my work to be coming from the right, like-
Andrew: Motivation.
Matthew: From the right place. You know what I mean? And only me and God will know. 'Cause a lot of people, they're like, "Man, how do you find enough time in the day?" And that's one of my Enneagram number's like strengths is like we get stuff done. I get stuff done, dude. But that can also be coming from this… Am I running to all the things I'm getting done, or am I running away from this name tag that says failure on it because I haven't fully embraced what God says about… Or as you said, the Potter. I love that.
Andrew: But to even be aware, at this stage of your life, that you are running from something when you're thinking through that failure perspective, I think there's a lot of people in the world who never take a moment or take the time or are encouraged to step back a second and go, "Why am I spinning like this?" So even that awareness is a huge beginning. It's a huge step, and it's a huge example to your family, you know?
Matthew: Well, songwriting can be like… I wonder if you feel like this from the stage. Like I do feel like a lot of times I'm writing the songs that I-
Andrew: You need?
Matthew: That I need. Yeah. I've described it like this. I literally, I've never heard God speak in an audible voice, but there are moments, there was a moment on stage where like I started praying this prayer nightly, like just a very quick prayer as I walk on stage. And I don't know where I got it from or why, but I had this image of arrows, and I just imagined one by one the songs that I would sing becoming arrows shooting from the stage.
And what I loved about that image of the arrow is that the arrow doesn't do this like a shotgun. You know, the arrow has a very finite focus and aim. It's going to towards a target, and it may be towards Jenny, right? It may go straight for Jenny. It may not be for the person next to Jenny, but that other song may have an arrow focus because that's how involved in the details God is. And so I would pray this every night, like turn these songs to arrows, you know?
And well, what's crazy is I'm on stage one night, and I was singing a song. I know exactly, it was a song called "Only Grace." And the word grace is in more of my songs than any other word. And I've done the research, and I felt like the Lord said to me, "Matthew, you asked for arrows, but I gave you boomerangs." And it just like… And I remember just being struck from the stage going, in other words, he was saying-
Mark: It's for you.
Matthew: These are for you, yeah. Don't get to the end of your career and you missed that the songs you were singing were for the singer.
Andrew: Well, what if some of them were only for that? What if they were only for you?
Mark: Killing that audience with them, they're just for you.
Matthew: The audience is like, "Get outta here."
Andrew: That's why I never resonated.
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Matthew West singing “Hello, My Name Is”
Hello, my name is regret
I'm pretty sure we have met
Every single day of your life
I'm the whisper inside
That won't let you forget
Hello, my name is defeat
I know you recognize me
Just when you think you can win
I'll drag you right back down again
Till you've lost all belief
Oh, these are the voices, oh these are the lies
And I have believed them, for the very last time
Hello, my name is child of the One true King
I've been saved, I've been changed, I have been set free
Amazing grace is the song I sing
Hello, my name is child of the One true King
Whoa, whoa, whoa
Whoa, whoa, whoa
Whoa, whoa, whoa
I am no longer defined
By all the wreckage behind
The One who makes all things new
Has proven it's true
Just take a look at my life
Hello, my name is child of the One true King
I've been saved, I've been changed, I have been set free
Amazing grace is the song I sing
Hello, my name is child of the one true King
Whoa, whoa, whoa
Whoa, whoa, whoa
Whoa, whoa, whoa
What love the Father Has lavished upon us
That we should be called His children
I am a child of the One true King
What love the Father Has lavished upon us
That we should be called His children
Hello, my name is child of the One true King
I've been saved, I've been changed, I have been set free
Amazing grace is the song I sing
Hello, my name is child of the One true King, yeah
Matthew: I've never ended it like that before, but...
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Mark: Mark Lowry.
Andrew: And Andrew Greer.
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