SEASON THREE

S02, E01: A Change of Mind featuring Danny Gokey and Dr. Caroline Leaf

Watch Our Other Episodes:

S02, E02: The Last Goodbye featuring Amy Grant

S02, E03: The Humanity of Billy & Ruth Graham featuring Will Graham and Gigi Graham

S02, E04: Life After Divorce featuring Crystal Lewis

S02, E05: Place in this World featuring Michael W. Smith and Ginny Owens

S02, E06: God Is In The Details featuring Kathie Lee Gifford and Rabbi Jason Sobel

S02, E07: Winning Takes Work featuring Scott Hamilton and Paula Trujillo

S02, E08: Mind Matters featuring Dr. Caroline Leaf

S02, E09: The Thin Line Between Priest and Prophet featuring Becca Stevens and Russ Taff

S02, E10: The Color of Love featuring Seth & Nirva and Montell Jordan

S02, E11: Diversity Living Together featuring Montell Jordan

S02, E12: Like A Child featuring Randall Goodgame

6/9/20 6/9/20

Perfectly Imperfect featuring Wynonna Judd

Country music legend Wynonna Judd opens up about her lifelong struggle with and recovery from perfectionism, while her husband and bandmate Cactus Moser keeps things light and laughing with his distinctive brand of witty storytelling.

Country music legend Wynonna Judd opens up about her lifelong struggle with and recovery from perfectionism, while her husband and bandmate Cactus Moser keeps things light and laughing with his distinctive brand of witty storytelling. Don't miss a single episode of Dinner Conversations — subscribe below!

Transcript

Andrew: Partner with us and our good friends at ChildFund, to change the world and the life of a child by considering sponsoring a child today.

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Andrew: Visit childfund.org/dinnerconversations.

Mark: A child is waiting.

Mark: Today’s guest really needs no introduction, Wynonna.

Andrew: One word.

Mark: One word, yeah.

Andrew: Like Andrew, right?

Mark: And Wynonna Judd is our special guest, and I of course knew people who knew her before I got to know her. I knew Michael English. When I first joined the vocal band, he was in the group, and he was friends with Wynonna. He'd get on the bus talking about Wy, Wy, Wy. 'Cause those who know her--

Andrew: That's what he called her?

Mark: Real close, call her Wy. And so then Guy Penrod joins the group.

Andrew: Why?

Mark: And he knows Wynonna, and he calls her Wy too. And he'd get on the bus, oh we did this, we did that. And I'm thinking, well, I know Wynonna.

Andrew: You wanna know Wy.

Mark: I wanna know Wy. I wanna know why I don't know Wynnona.

Andrew: I don't know why.

Mark: And then Bill Gaither invited me to lunch with them one time, and we hit it off. We're both equally airheads. And we--

Andrew: I thought you were about to say arrogant.

Mark: That too probably. Now, she is so sweet. And what I learned today about her is that she's a perfectionist. What a hard thing to have to live up to.

Andrew: It's true, and she actually considers herself a recovering perfectionist. And I thought that was kind of a tongue in cheek thing. She's serious.

Mark: She's serious.

Andrew: She's saying that perfectionism is a real struggle for her. Her expectations for herself and probably those around her have always been really high. But she's talking today about how she's kinda laying that down. And she's doing that partially through the relationship with her husband.

Mark: Cactus. And we have one seat left at the table, and it's yours. Let's join the conversation.

Wynonna: Okay, this is gonna be such a long story.

Andrew: Good.

Mark: Well, we can edit.

Wynonna: You have food. You can eat.

Andrew: That's right.

Wynonna: I just think when you're successful at 18 in that world, you play so much catchup for so long you just don't have time to pay-- Okay, think about it this way. If you're in a car wreck, what's the first thing you do? You look to see if you're alive, blood. And then you can start to look around the car and see who else is hurt. But what's the very first thing? Am I in pain? And I went through this metaphorical time in my life where I went very much to the, you know, foot of the cross, and I laid there. "God, show me.” Metaphor after metaphor after metaphor, look in nature, look at the-- And I just went to studying, and I really love Brene Brown. She's helped me so much to learn about vulnerability, shame, all the things that we don't wanna talk about.

Andrew: Courage.

Wynonna: Courage, thank you.

Andrew: And the courage talk to about them.

Wynonna: Daring Greatly. Oh my God. I think when you're so successful, you don't pay attention to other people. Don't you think? I really do.

Andrew: Why do you look at him and not me?

Wynonna: Because he's so successful-- 'Cause he's so full of himself. I mean just, I'm so.

Mark: But no.

Andrew: Just feed him.

Mark: In my little minuscule gospel world, it didn't happen until--

Wynonna: Oh minuscule, whatever.

Mark: Until I was 30, till I was 30. You were 18. There's a difference.

Andrew: So you think because you were older-- You know there's a study that over, I think it's over the past 100 years, musicians who have had great notoriety, success, popularity, even in the big band eras, way back when, that over 3,000 of them have committed suicide at the age 27. There's something they say about the lack of being able to develop in reality and then be able to handle-- Like celebrity or success on a great stage can potentially be maneuvered as a mature adult, but your 20s and 19, 18, that's not an adult. You know.

Wynonna: I did not know that. Learn something new every day. My unraveling-- Everybody says, "Oh, I had a mental breakdown.” I call it an unraveling because of Brene. She taught me that. Unraveling is such a visual. I've had to unravel all the years with mom on the road, just because of the circumstance, just because of the expectation, and the looking at me, "Oh, you're the youngest punk in the room. You don't know anything.” Telling me what to do. I was so co-dependent and such a people pleaser. I've been in recovery from that for years, perfectionism, the whole thing. We don't know whether it's good or bad in the moment, do we? It's not until we're looking back 10 years later and go, that's the best thing that ever happened to me. And that's part of my, I say, ministry because I'm going into the prisons and all these places I don't wanna really be, and I know they need to hear something.

Mark: How is that happening?

Wynonna: It's happening because I'm being called, and I have no other way than to say I'm answering the call. I swear to you I had people before answer the call, and they'd filter it and it'd come to me, does it work in your schedule? Now it's me going, okay, January 1 or 2, I go in to this peripheral state. I know it's very holy. No, I'm just begging God for direction. I'm saying, I literally heard this from my mom, and I'd make fun of her little Hallmark card sayings 'cause she's got them down. She's been doing it. She's like Lucille Ball. Right, she's got her shtick. I said, "God, I don't wanna just ask you to do your thing and bless what I'm doing. I wanna do what you're blessing.” And the next thing I know I'm getting called by people like you and people who say, "Come over and do this.” And I'm like, no, it's too vulnerable, it's too, eh. But then that little voice, that mama voice says, "Let them see the cracks in your armor. That's how the light gets out."

Mark: Oh, does your mother say that?

Wynonna: Yes.

Mark: That's a great one.

Andrew: Yeah, it is.

Wynonna: It is a great one.

Andrew: But you wanna let them see the cracks in their armor, right?

Wynonna: You have to understand. I've been marching through the women in country music.

Mark: Aren't you tired?

Wynonna: Mmhmm. And you said 27. 27 and 28 were my two of my most chaotic years, and then I had Elijah at 30 and he brought me home.

Mark: You had what?

Wynonna: That's when I wrote the book. I had my son, Elijah, at 30, and that's when I came home and literally went on Oprah and did all those shows, and she helped me title my book, Coming Home to Myself. So you're right, 27. There’s still all this turmoil and what works and what doesn't and separation. And I was so in love with Cactus at sort of 25. That was the beginning of my understanding about relationships 'cause I didn't have relationships. I had a career.

Andrew: Right, yeah.

Mark: Right.

Wynonna: I didn't have friends. I had band members.

Mark: But you didn't even choose the career, I mean, really.

Wynonna: And payroll. I didn't choose anything. It was her. It's all her fault, no. It's just she was the organized one.

Mark: And you had a great talent. No doubt about that. But the thing is, like I was just hearing about or reading on the way over here about Bette Davis. I don't even know where I was at, but she was consumed by her career. I mean, you had a big career, have a big career, but you did not choose it.

Wynonna: Excuse me. I must correct you. Having.

Mark: You're having a big career.

Wynonna: Hello, people. Work with me!

Andrew: Wait till after this airs.

Wynonna: I'm in my third chapter. Can you believe it? I'm third chapter. So go ahead. Bette Davis.

Mark: But I'm just saying--

Wynonna: I know it was her whole thing.

Mark: It's not your consumption, is what you're saying?

Andrew: Anymore?

Wynonna: Nope, I will be honest and say it was because it was mom’s. She was 36, and she was ready. Have you seen the photos where she's Miss America and-- I'm serious. And I'm going, I just, ew, this is so weird. The whole time it was just weird. This is all too much. And then I met Cactus on the tour. He had Highway 101. And I was so smitten with him, and she was like, "No, you have a career.” So I think I know what you're saying is it does become your whole life. I lived back when we had faxing. You know? People would send me my schedule. And I swear to you. I think one year I had two weeks off. I just was--

Andrew: That was it.

Wynonna: I just didn't-- I was not-- When people I--

Andrew: You weren't home.

Wynonna: I wasn't home, and I did not have control of my own life. My manager and my mom did. And I'm not bitter. I'm just aware of how much I missed. And so now we're turning our home, our farm, into a playground for adults to come and play and just laugh and be. And that's why I'm living more spontaneously. So I think you're right. You do get older and realize-- And my daughter said it to me yesterday. She said, "Mom." She’s only 22 and she goes, "I'm tired of taking everything so seriously.” 'Cause I think everybody, you know, on social media or wherever, they're all so consumed by followers and likes, and, oh my god, out there. They don't go inside. And I think she, at any earlier age, is already stronger than I was at 22. And so I think you're right. We do become consumed. And so in answer to your question, I think it's time for us all to go “hello" to the person standing next to us at the grocery store. And I was just telling Wendy we have more technology than we've ever had, and we're the loneliest we've ever been.

“We have more technology than we’ve ever had, and we’re the loneliest we’ve ever been.”

— Wynonna Judd

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Andrew: Yeah, and I wonder, you know, you talk about recovery from perfectionism.

Mark: Oh yeah, I love that one.

Andrew: And a recovering perfectionist. I mean, I wonder, culturally speaking, what you're talking about. I think the technological age has enhanced us. I think it's always been where we want to put our best foot forward, get my best side. You know, perception has always been a part of humans' struggle with interacting with ourselves and others.

Mark: And the industry’s full of image builders.

Andrew: Absolutely. And people saying, "Build your image."

Mark: Yeah, build it but you just can never believe it. When you start believing the image they build.

Wynonna: I did.

Mark: You did?

Andrew: Or was it just something in reality?

Wynonna: No, no, no, no. I tell you what I did, and it's worse. I started listening to the critics, and I started to try to move around and bend and be pliable, and, well, he didn't like that one thing, so I won't do that again. I'm just, people pleaser. I think it goes back to people pleasing and wanting so badly because think about this. If I walk in a room, what precedes me? Before you ever have a conversation.

Andrew: My perception of you or whatever I've heard.

Wynonna: Okay, what you've read and what you've seen. When you go into business, you're expected to be whatever it is. And so I will say, I got to where I listened to other people's criticism. My husband just told me about a guy who recently wrote — I'm not on social media — who wrote in and said, "You tell that Wynonna she better quit talking about her mama that way.” And he's just mad at me. I wanna call him on the phone and say, "Excuse me, I can talk about my mama, but you can’t." And by the way, I supported her for 30 years and loved her and was there. You know what I mean? I wanted to defend myself, and I thought, I can't do this.

Mark: Let the children play.

Wynonna: What?

Mark: Let the children play. You know what? I never listen to critics 'cause they don't matter.

Andrew: Well, and there is some constructive--

Wynonna: In country music, it's different though. Well, for me it was.

Andrew: To discern it, yeah. But it's interesting-- Receiving praise. I remember my dad, 'cause music is my background. I did all these piano recitals as a kid, and, you know, you put all this pressure on yourself. I think every person does it on every level at some given point.

Wynonna: The more talented they are, I've noticed they do. I think that's interesting, the more talented people.

Andrew: Well then, I was hugely pressured, but-- He was with me after a recital or something, and someone was saying, "You know, I was really moved by the way you played this,” or something, and I put my head to the ground and I couldn't receive it. I couldn't even say thank you. I think I kind of deflected like, well, you know, but then there was this part.

Wynonna: Women are the worst.

Mark: Oh, because you didn’t feel like you did good?

Andrew: Right, 'cause I had all the inner critique going in my head, and we--

Wynonna: Oh, I could've done this.

Andrew: Yeah. We got in the car, and he said, "One of the greatest gifts you can give yourself is to receive--"

Wynonna: Are you serious?

Andrew: "Is to receive someone’s compliment and just say-- And if you're not feeling it in the moment, that's okay. You can go dissect your performance later. Look at them in the eye and say thank you.” That is all--

Wynonna: I cannot believe that happened to you. That's awesome.

Mark: Yeah, I agree. Yeah, because they're giving you a gift.

Andrew: It is a gift, right.

Wynonna: You know what I was told?

Andrew: What?

Wynonna: Don't pay any attention to it because they're just projecting. It's about them.

Mark: Wait, wait, wait, wait. The critics?

Andrew: So like blowing smoke up basically?

Mark: Or someone complementing you?

Wynonna: I was told-- You have to realize I was taught differently, and it's okay. I've made peace with it. I was taught never to take that praise because it's simply-- It's a God-gift, so give it back-- In other words, it's not you. Get rid of it. Take it off like a coat. And it's just them complementing you to have an interaction with you and a connection to you, that they're projecting.

Mark: Oh my gosh!

Andrew: So was that like an encouragement of false humility of sorts?

Wynonna: I don't even know anymore. I just now have learned to go "thank you very much" and move on.

Mark: You know what? The thing is they are giving you-- It's the first time they've ever said it to you.

Wynonna: I think you know. My daughter knew the difference. She would say, "Mom, that guy doesn't even listen to country music I'll bet you.” And I'd say, “Gracie." My point is you can tell when it's genuine. Can you not tell when it's genuine? You feel it, don't you?

Mark: I don't really analyze it that much. I just say "thank you” and move on.

Wynonna: Well, aren't you just the sweetest little thing.

Mark: Well, I just don't have time. Who has time to analyze everybody comes up and compliments you, girl?

Wynonna: Well, guess what.

Mark: I've been complimented so much.

Wynonna: Oh wow, I'm just so overcome.

Mark: But I just don’t-- I don't think about it that much.

Wynonna: Well, you didn't share a bus with your mama for 10 years. Come on, let's just get back to reality.

Andrew: I think there is some difference there.

Wynonna: Yeah, there is a difference in country music too 'cause you have to remember we're accessible. We are right there in the airport. We are there shaking-- I'm not saying that gospel contemporary Christian isn’t, but there is such an-- You are who you really are on stage and off. In gospel, honestly I've met people who are so different off stage than they are on stage. I'll be honest and say wearing the mask, the social mask, which I know all about it. And I see it off, and I go, wow, I didn’t see that off stage. All that to say I was raised you better not ever disrespect. I was so good at interrupting everybody, and my mother would absolutely say, "Quit it," and she'd snap her finger and say, "Don't you ever interrupt like that again,” Johnny Carson, you know what I mean? She would take me to town.

Mark: Wow.

Andrew: Okay, so get this. This is what I'm thinking about.

Wynonna: I needed her though 'cause I was pretty cute and running around with my head cut off.

Andrew: It's always the both and, right? I mean, this is happening though, dot your i's cross your t’s, don't believe the praise, you know, thrive on the critics.

Wynonna: God forbid.

Andrew: But at the same time-- So in your personal life, and I don't wanna tell your story for you, but you've got so much going on, right? You've got husbands. You've got--

Wynonna: Husbands?

Mark: One, right?

Wynonna: Go ahead, I'm sorry. The reason I said that is because a woman the other night yelled out and she goes-- I said, "This is Cactus, my husband.” She goes, "Well, you finally got it right.” And I was like, thanks for shopping.

Andrew: Yeah, that's right.

Wynonna: I was so overcome, so when you said husbands, I was like, I got more than one? Just it's a thing. Just go ahead, go ahead with what you were saying.

Andrew: We'll come back to you, Cactus. And I think about you find out as an adult, you know, that the man you've been calling dad isn't your biological father. You go through this pregnancy that was this child birth experience with your daughter that almost takes your life. You know, plus this relationship with your mother that's interesting at minimum, you know. You've got all this going on in the foreground, and it reminds me of like a laptop that's got too many windows open and it just clogs--

Wynonna: I agree. It's too much.

Andrew: Like how did that shape you? And does it still shape you?

Wynonna: It does everyday. I can't believe you asked that question, and I said I wasn't gonna cry. I was just with mom yesterday praying over her, and I don't normally do that. I'm not a person to pray in public or be called upon to do that. I let others do that 'cause, I don't know, I just guess I haven't felt like I earned the right to do it. It's always an elder or someone better at it. And I just prayed over her 'cause she's my mom, and I said, you know, cause she's 72, and it's just hard for her. Because she loves being with people, and she loves to dance and be in the spotlight. She's always been like a little doll. And I've given her, you know, opportunities to just fly around the stage, and I stay there and play my guitar and do my chores you know. So you're right. It's too much, and I think what I’ve learned is from my daughter. She's my teacher right now. She says, "Mom, too much stress.” And it reminds me of that silly saying that we've heard a million times. "Too blessed to be stressed.” In my brokenness, my elder teacher, Mama Bunny said, “Quit using the word broken 'cause you're not broken. You're wounded, but you're not broken, and you don't need fixing.” And I was like, "Yes, ma’m." But here's the deal. I think when it comes to a point, you have to stop and go, okay, I woke up this morning, and he was flying. He’s Mr. Joy in the morning, and I'm like-- Is it morning? Oh God. He's joy. I'm like that. Okay, it's awesome. I'm gonna get there. I'm gonna get there. I'm gonna get there when I'm 60. But anyway. I said, "It's too much, honey. It's too much.” And that's why we're married, because he’ll chillax, chick singer, in my band, which he actually tells people. And he'll say, he'll say, "Just enjoy because you know what the truth is--" Perspective. I have a friend who’s literally saying goodbye to his kids 'cause he knows he's not gonna be here in a month. And I go, oh my gosh, oh God, and then I go and do all these things, and it just gives me a perspective. So I think, and to answer your question, it's just it all is really small stuff and it really matters. It really is what matters, and it, unless it's a life or death or we're talking, you know, life support or funeral and stuff and it's over, it's part of the process, and I think the best advice I ever got was, well, from several people, but one saying, "Just be an observer. Quit taking everything so personally."

Mark: That's good.

Wynonna: That's like the best I've ever heard anything ever said to me, just be an observer and stand back. And I will literally take a physical step back and watch something to go, why am I so hurt? Why am I taking this so personally? It's not about me.

Andrew: Right. You're not the axis.

Wynonna: What? Why is that so hard to figure out? I guess it is for me, but--

Andrew: I think there's actually something kind of spiritual about it because we have been, I believe, created so beautifully and good by our Creator that it is about us to some degree, you know.

Wynonna: He love us so much.

Andrew: We know that internally we have all this value, but the value has been so displaced for so long we don't know how to-- I just don't think we have a proper perspective of ourselves. I heard you say that you like wake up now, talking about waking up and Cactus being so joyful. Instead of saying-- What is it? Instead of saying--

Wynonna: Oh God, it's morning. I say good morning, God.

Andrew: That's a shift.

Wynonna: That changed me. That changed me. And I say it and it's corny, and I'm becoming my mother in that respect. I'm teaching my children that because there's too much complaining, and I have been reading a lot more lately. I will admit I don't know a lot about the Bible, and I've been reading it, and the things I hear are very simple, which is quit your murmuring. You know how we just under our breath or all day long going-- What kind of noise is that sending to the heavens? And if we believe in infinity and sound is a wave, it's still up there echoing in the heavens? Oh, good Lord. What do I want echoing in the heavens? I think about that everyday.

“What do I want echoing in the heavens? I think about that everyday.”

— Wynonna Judd

Mark: Wow.

Wynonna: What am I saying? What am I singing? And so I'm just-- I think I'm more aware and more awake than I've ever been, and that's because of my failures and my weakness was at a point where I literally went through I did not know how much I needed God till God was all I had. And it was during Cactus Moser's accident, so we'll talk about that. You just get to an age where, and I was talking with Wendy in the car, but when you hit 50, something happens where you realize everything from here on out is a gift.

Mark: Yeah, wait till you hit 60.

Andrew: Every minute, every second is a gift. Okay, but if I could earn that perspective, or not earn it, but if I could somehow find that perspective, why is it that we have to wait for some years to like-- Why can't I embody that?

Mark: You know God's never in a hurry. I just don't think he is.

Wynonna: That just makes me crazy.

Mark: He's just never in a hurry.

Wynonna: I'm ready right now.

Mark: I know, but you know what? He's conforming you, and it takes-- It's like heavenly sandpaper. When he gets done, you’re gonna be just like Jesus.

Wynonna: Nuh uh.

Mark: Yeah, you are. 33 in Jewish.

Wynonna: Oh my gosh.

Mark: No, no, we're gonna be conformed into the image of His Son, right?

Wynonna: Yeah, it's what I hear.

Mark: That's what I hear too.

Andrew: Yeah, it doesn't feel-- Or maybe that is the challenge.

Mark: It hurts.

Andrew: The perfectionism. How do you begin to-- How have you begun? I think this is a really relatable topic.

Mark: You still look perfect to me.

Andrew: And I agree. You walked in today and gave me a big old hug. I loved it. We've never even met, and you said, "Hold me. I'm insecure.” And I'm thinking, you've been in-- I think you and your mom's first record came out the year I was born. I mean, you have been a part--

Wynonna: Oh my God.

Mark: Oh, receive that why don't you?

Andrew: Well, no, no. That’s still a compliment. That's still a compliment. But you've been a part of this culture.

Mark: He does that kinda crap to me all the time.

Andrew: It's because it's-- I mean, I'm getting--

Mark: He's the millennial. I'm the old guy.

Andrew: Old millennial.

Mark: But perfectionism, yeah.

Wynonna: Yeah, how do you begin to manage expectations when you have so many expectations.

Mark: Yeah, how's that working? How's that going for you?

Wynonna: How’s that work for you?

Mark: Yeah, how's that going? Are you less--

Wynonna: I'm less-- I will tell you straight out that I was, and I'm gonna write a book about this. For the first part of my life, I was definitely a people pleaser, and I worked for my mom and my manager and I was the, yes, I will do that. I was overbooked and overpaid and too many benefits and too much and too much, and it came crashing. And I started over, wrote about that. I think you get to a point where you realize-- And I do this in my speaking engagements, and I see women actually cry over this. I say pick three things, maybe four if you're really having a good day, and do them well. And then go to bed and celebrate that. And I will literally see women start to cry 'cause I know we fall into bed saying, "Well, there was that one thing I didn't do.” I'm so sick and tired of that. I've lived that way so much in my life. Cactus Moser is literally responsible for the very first time-- I can remember him saying to me, "No, don't do that.” And one of them was, an example, I was doing the Schermerhorn Symphony. Very very polite crowd. Very lovely. And I was up there in all my glory with this beautiful symphony, and I had on the heels and the, you know, jacked to Jesus and all that, and he literally was like, “Take off your shoes. You look like you're not comfortable.” And I wasn’t. And I took my shoes off, and I sang from my toenails. And I got like, you know, just--

Andrew: Yeah, gritty.

Wynonna: It was awesome. And he just sort of took--

Mark: Like he gave you permission?

Wynonna: He just helped me unpack all my crap and say enough. And we started doing the songs differently, acoustically, with just-- I walk out on stage now barefoot and sing a cappella. Birds flying high, you know how I feel.

Mark: Is that what you start with?

Wynonna: I wouldn't have done that to save my life.

Andrew: Too exposed?

Wynonna: Just too vulnerable.

Mark: Oh my gosh. I bet that's fabulous.

Wynonna: Well, okay. Now...

Andrew: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Wynonna: But back then, it was so not the way we did it. You know how we did it in the old school where you'd go out there, three songs uptempo, bring them back down. So Cactus Moser says, "We're going do this right. We're gonna do it real.” We gather around one microphone, we sing, we play. I play harmonica, drums whatever. I think what I'm saying is I'm finally enjoying myself.

Mark: Good.

Andrew: And you know what? When you do that, I think you're giving people permission to actually sit back and listen instead of have to, you know, go over the top in their involvement and get all hyped up. You're actually allowing them-- I mean life is so hyped, especially in our culture today.

Wynonna: No kidding.

Andrew: That you're giving them permission to just sit back, be themselves.

Mark: And if you're having a good time, they will.

Wynonna: Point is it's just time to finally be yourself and say it's okay.

Andrew: Embody it. I listened to you sing a second ago. I was listening to some of your records last night just to prep for the interview, and you know, that's a different voice.

Wynonna: It's a different life.

Mark: It sounded a lot like her to me. What do you mean?

Wynonna: I know what he's saying.

Andrew: You have more body. The living of life is now coming out in your musical experience.

Mark: The anointing has always been there, but now it's like you're mature and know how to handle it.

Wynonna: All I know, guys, is just be yourself. I think people are hungry for real more now than ever, and Cactus Moser being producer, manager, partner, life partner-- I can finally say partner. Before it's always been Wynonna Incorporated, solo artist. Now it's a we. Me has turned into we. It just feels better. It feels more honest and real, and I have mentors like, you know, Brene Brown saying, "It's okay to be vulnerable.” No, not in my family it's not. We'd rather be right than be loved.

Mark: Oh. Wow!

Andrew: That is a major wall. That's a fortress that cannot be penetrated.

Mark: You know, I know a lot of people like that. Rather be right than be loved. That made my head sweat a little bit.

Andrew: And I think it's almost like my counselor told me recently that, he said, "I think you're a great comforter. I think you comfort people easily and that kind of thing.” He said, "I don't think you have any idea how to receive comfort."

Mark: Well, you ain't gonna get it now.

Andrew: Can somebody touch me?

Wynonna Judd and Cactus Moser singing “What It Takes”

Cactus: Are you fixing my hair while I lay down a bad, bad guitar groove?

Wynonna: Tell me when you're ready. Are you serious right now?

Cactus: I'm just checking my makeup in the lights.

Wynonna: Let me tell you a little bit about myself.

Cactus: Oh honey, I'm ready.

Wynonna: Are you sure? You think you can handle it?

Cactus: I've been trying for 10 years.

Oooh, I wanna walk
To no particular destination
I like to talk
When I got the inclination
I like to move
When I got the locomotion
I like to do just what it takes
To keep this smile on my face

I like to ride in my car
Oh wherever they're driving faster
I wanna sail the ship
As long as I can be the master
I can ride those rails
On my own roller coaster
I like to do just what it takes
To keep this smile on my face

'Cause I was born to be this way
Never save it for a rainy day
I just like to make it my own way
I wanna be the first to say

Ain't gonna change my ways
Oh, no, no, no
If it means that I ain't livin'
Don't wanna go through life
If there's no room for givin'
Don't wanna stand here long
If it just means I'm a waiting
I like to do just what it takes
To keep this smile on my face

I was born to be this way
Never save it for a rainy day
I just like to make it my own way
I wanna be the first to say

I don't wanna work too hard
If it just means that I ain't livin'
I don't wanna go through life
If it just means that I ain't livin'
I ain't gonna stand here long
If it just means I'm waiting
'Cause I like to do just what it takes
To keep this smile on my face
I'm gonna do just what it takes
To keep this smile on my face

Ooooh

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Mark: I have sponsored children for as long as I can remember, and I love doing it. I've never had a child, and it's the best way for a single person to have a child, you know, sponsor ‘em. You're not really responsible, but you help, you know, and I like that. I've got five right now I’m sponsoring with ChildFund, and I couldn't be happier. I love these kids, and I'm glad I can help, but I'm glad they're not really mine. So go to childfund.org/dinnerconversations and sponsor your child you don't have to really invest that much into. Can you imagine if you only had to spend $36 a month on ones you birthed? This is a deal! To learn more about Dinner Conversations, visit dinner-conversations.com.

Andrew: And while you're there, check out some of our friendly merch. We've got show mugs and Season One and Two DVDs. And we got these little note cards so Mark can write me a note that says, "You're the best cohost."

Mark: Oh yes. Well, you know, you get that after every episode. And what about this mug with our faces on it?

Andrew: What says good morning better?

Mark: It's like we're on both sides, so lefty or righty, you get to see us every morning.

Andrew: You know, I think it's time we get back to those guests.

Mark: Yeah, probably.

Andrew: So you're missing a leg, Cactus.

Mark: Yeah, how did that happen?

Cactus: You know, I thought I was being invited to a really nice meal. I didn't realize it was a bludgeoning. Yeah, there's a fact there that can be underlined. I'm missing a leg. And we're not having--

Andrew: I wouldn't know.

Cactus: Yeah. Well, thankfully, that’s my goal is I want people to look at me and always go, "Oh, I didn't had no idea.” And in truth, my hand was really the biggest part of--

Mark: Are you serious?

Cactus: So I had a motorcycle wreck, for those that don't know.

Andrew: You guys were together.

Cactus: She was on a bike right behind me. I had just come around her, and the bike, you know--

Wynonna: Which was a lot. You really have a lot of--

Cactus: I had a faulty tire.

Wynonna: Nobody goes in front of me.

Cactus: I got in front of you all day that day.

Wynonna: But I was so in love with you I let you.

Cactus: I know. You were very chivalrous. So in losing my leg-- Laying there on the ground, you know, after I quit tumbling and rolling and all that. I had laid on the top of a car for milliseconds, and yet I had a five-minute mini movie. I remember laying on my side and seeing her go by, my bike tumbling end over end, And I'm thinking, wow, that's weird. It's going end over end instead of short ways, you know. Now I laid back on my back and looked up and went, "This sky.” This was like when I was a kid in Colorado or when we lived in LA. It was like there's a different kind of sky than in the South. And I kid you not, it was, you know, milliseconds. I hit that thing and went up over the windshield over the top of the car and went back off the back of the car. I'm told later because of a guy who was riding right behind us--

Andrew: It's on the interstate or--?

Cactus: Yeah, it's a mountain highway up in South Dakota. And I thought about everything, from, oh, I could become a DJ. If my arms and legs are maimed, I can become a DJ.

Andrew: You're thinking about this?

Cactus: Yeah. Yeah, electronic music is big. If I need, I can get a helmet that looks like I'm, you know--

Mark: All this is going through your mind?

Cactus: Yeah, yeah. And then I started rolling down the road, and I'm thinking, this is way too fast. And I'm a snow skier. I thought, oh, we always, you know, do something to kind of contain the falls.

Andrew: Sure.

Cactus: And when I stopped, my first thought was not, oh, my leg was gone. It was, oh, we have a gig in four hours. I gotta assess what's going on. And I had a glove on, and my hand was still the biggest part of injury 'cause it was gone. Everything disconnected. Nothing broke, but my hand surgeon, who’s an amazing, historic guy at Vanderbilt for musicians in particular, said, "Never in my career have I seen something like that."

Andrew: Are those your fingers?

Cactus: Yeah, they're my fingers.

Mark: Now, explain it. I've heard about the leg. I've never heard about the hand.

Cactus: I always said that you can go to a leg store and buy legs, you know, and since you astutely pointed out I don't have one, I went and got one.

Andrew: Smart man.

Cactus: But your hand.

Wynonna: And being a drummer, I mean, come on. It's like missing a vocal cord.

Andrew: Yeah, that's the tragedy.

Cactus: For everything I do, you know, from guitars to obviously drums, first and foremost. But yeah, so this thing was pinned in this position. And my leg was gone on this side. And I had this wrapped up, and I had her, and it was just like she was my left side. And everything I had to do from shower to you name it, she had to come and be there.

Wynonna: Except for that one thing.

Cactus: Yeah, except for that one thing.

Andrew: Would you like to clarify?

Mark: Amen.

Cactus: So anyway, yes, it was a tumultuous event that led to--

Wynonna: Well, it either makes you or breaks you, come on.

Cactus: But led to many things.

Mark: How long had y'all been together?

Wynonna: This is three months. Three months, we'd been married. I had literarily--

Mark: You'd been married three months.

Cactus: We dated two years prior that.

Wynonna: I'd put my honeymoon clothes ready to go. I swear to you. I had all these outfits picked out. I was so-- He didn't see me without makeup or all my hair for five years. I was that smitten.

Mark: Wow.

Wynonna: Did you?

Cactus: No, I didn't.

Wynonna: So I was mad. Really mad. And I was stuck with him and him stuck with me for four months. And then I had to go back on the road by myself, and I literally remember the day I had to do a show without him. I thought, can't do it.

Cactus: Well, you weren't-- In truth, because I just said this, so I don't wanna sound like, you know, I'm fibbing. You had to go back on the road in about two and a half weeks. I went back on the road three months to the day from the wreck.

Wynonna: It seemed like four months.

Andrew: Wow.

Cactus: I got on a bus three months to the day, and we did a Christmas tour. So it was a little less intense, you know, a little less rocking.

Andrew: You can kind of fake it.

Cactus: In truth, you had to go back on the road, and they would call me because I always led the prayer circle before the show or whatever. They'd call me, and I'd be on a speakerphone. They wired up a little speaker, so I'd be in the middle circle praying with them before they went on stage.

Mark: Wow.

Andrew: I mean, it seems like your energy, optimism, whatever, does not end. You're thinking about deejaying.

Wynonna: He complained once. When we're in the car, Pinewood Road, about a mile from our house, and he looked at me very solemn and he said, “Honey, I'm different."

Mark: I'm different?

Wynonna: That's it. And that was the only complaint

Mark: Do you have a high tolerance for pain?

Cactus: Well, apparently I do. I didn't want to have that be something I would brag about in my life, but--

Wynonna: Only when we're arguing about something, he'll say, "Remember that thing you said were that was the greatest sound on earth besides your children's birth?” 'Cause he went under, but he came back, and when you come back in the movies, they always have the sound and I heard it and I thought he was gone or fading. They said you had just minutes before--

Cactus: I was just assessing. I never went-- I never went out.

Wynonna: But he brings it up.

Cactus: Yeah, well, I like to, you know. She might say, "Did you remember to put the, you know, the chicken back in the refrigerator before we started watching a movie or whatever?" And I'll go, "Honey, I've only got one leg."

Mark: I love it.

Cactus: So it comes in-- It comes in quite handy.

Andrew: Yes, I'm sure it does.

Mark: I was using "mama died” five years after she did. "I can't be there. Mama died."

Cactus: Yes, there you go.

Andrew: You said you were angry though. What do you mean? At the tragedy?

Wynonna: I was angry 'cause I finally felt like I was literally starting a new chapter of my life, and I did not think it would go that way. You know, you think you have that crystal ball or your, oh, I know. Ooh, I'm gonna say it on national everything. I thought I was literally in control, and I realized I wasn't.

Mark: You mean in the marriage?

Wynonna: Like literarily in life.

Mark: That sounds like a running theme with you.

Wynonna: It is such a running theme because I had no control for so long because of managers and handlers, they call them, which sounds so bizarre.

Mark: Just somebody else to take a paycheck.

Wynonna: Thank you. Okay, I'm just going to say this, and I never talk this way hardly, but I figure you, what the heck. I think there should be co and everything, whether it's the White House or a marriage or a partnership. I tell you what my theme has been is giving people too much power. Thank you so much for pointing at me. That's awesome. There's three pointing back at you. So anyway, I gave people so much power. And now I have a partner who says, "You know what, honey? I don't think that's a really good idea.” And I go, “What? Why?"

Mark: Okay, was it scary for you, Wynonna? I mean, for instance, like I-- You've had this management of your mother and others managing you, and then to finally stand up and break free, isn't it scary? And so when did it feel like, okay, that was the right decision.

Cactus: That's within the last few months. But she has gone from kind of letting things come at her and happen to her--

Wynonna: Reaction to being proactive is very different.

Cactus: To taking control and making decisions.

Andrew: Well, that's less codependent.

Cactus: Yeah.

Mark: Own it.

Andrew: It is boundaries, you know.

Wynonna: And it's not arrogance. It's confidence.

Andrew: It is not domination.

Cactus: See, I'm seeing her — this sounds ironic or bizarre — but becoming an adult in a lot of ways. Not that she wasn't, but you know, there was a lot of she didn't have to be.

Wynonna: I was so busy reacting to the world and I gotta do this, gotta do this. It's fear, it's fear. It's fear based.

Cactus: Whether it was on-- It was definitely fear based, which I understand, but--

Wynonna: Gotta do this, gotta stay relevant. Gotta stay relevant.

Cactus: People take advantage of that and overlord it.

Andrew: He's seeing you in ways that you've never been seen before.

Mark: I think we need to interview you more 'cause I think you're seeing things she hasn't.

Cactus: Honey, I'll see you at the house.

Mark: No, but you’re-- I mean, what a great perspective. Talk about perspective.

Wynonna: This one is saying, "You know what we gotta do? We gotta do real.” And I'm like, “Okay?" And he said, "And we've got to do it imperfectly.” I said, “Okay?" So instead of going down here to the million dollar studio that has the beautiful windows because it was a church.

Andrew: Ocean Way

Wynonna: And it's beautiful. Ocean Way. Some of my greatest experiences. He goes, "We're going to do it in the shed where I taught my kids.” And it's about the size of this table, twice in this way, twice. And we put five musicians in there, and I sang live and we made a record. And it was so bizarre. I would literally be walking in my Uggs with my little plastic bag with my apples and peanut butter and think, um, I used to have an intern that would go get Starbucks. What the heck? Just because we're spoiled rotten. This is America.

Andrew: Isn't that more satisfying in some ways?

Wynonna: Yes.

Cactus: Well, and there's a brilliant, there's a brilliant point here to be made.

Wynonna: Is there? Is there?

Cactus: As we know, because of technology, and we have since, you know, I built a studio down there, but we don't need any of that stuff to make amazing music. That's a complete facade.

Wynonna: Well, I wish I'd known this 20 years ago

Cactus: And it's all changed. But here's the thing. The records that are being played right now as we sit here and talk, whether they're old Neil Young records or a thousand people that we could sit here and name, they were made so imperfectly, but you know why? Because life is messy and dirty and imperfect.

Mark: And they couldn't be tuned.

Wynonna: Birth is messy.

Cactus: There's 500 perfect records being made--

Mark: Birth? Did you say birth?

Cactus: There's 500 perfect records being made right now probably in this town. And guess what. In about six, eight months when that first single is already off the chart and done, they will not be heard again. It's just like a tree in the forest. All that imperfect, raw, real-- I mean, we don't make imperfect stuff. We make it sound great because we know how. We have this amazing singer. That's 90 percent of the battle. And then the knowledge--

Wynonna: Battle?

Cactus: Then the knowledge-- Then the knowledge of how to tell the story in a song is now the only quest we have, and so it doesn't have to be science. It's not science. It is heart.

Mark: Exactly.

Andrew: Yeah, which is where it began, where it always was actually. Those who had heart, even in the more sophisticated, big budget days, actually are the ones we're still hearing from. Receive that. The ones who were making music when it was polished that are still making music, it is simply because of heart.

Wynonna: Okay, this is really off the beaten path. Do you remember the scene when Loretta Lynn is taken into the studio, and she's getting ready to make her first. You know, you're going to be the next big thing. And she’s, you know, doing her thing, and she's trying to and all of a sudden Doo does that thing that this one does. He goes-- He knows she's nervous. He knows she's unsettled and all this. I just was-- I cry every time I think about it almost. It's like, he goes out, and he gets her kids. Just gets me as a mom 'cause it's like that's who she's used to singing to. So he goes and gets her kids and brings them in and puts them down. And oh my God, that moment, just for some reason has stuck with me all these years. My favorite movie ever, Coal Miner's Daughter. And remember, she just went to singing. Like she's just singing for kids and it's like-- That's what he's doing. He's putting me in these environments where he’s like-- First of all, let me just say I need to win the Nobel Peace Prize for this. I shared a bus with my band and crew for a year because of this one. He said, "You are going to be in a band.” I'm used to my own space, you know. Because in America, they say we have a three foot radius around us that you do not get inside of our space.

Cactus: Three feet, that's plenty.

Wynonna: Three feet, at least. Wow. And so he said, "You're gonna ride the bus.” I had the most fun. I was the most frustrated at times, yes, because I'm used to, you know, spreading out my makeup and everything. I had to keep it contained.

Cactus: Diva.

Wynonna: Okay, who takes up three bunks for your crap, drummer?

Andrew: Yeah, that's exactly. The drummer, always.

Wynonna: Thank you. Don't even get me started. That's a whole other podcast. But anyway, I wrote my-- You said, "It's time for you to take off your nails, take off your lashes, do the whole unpack your crap."

Cactus: Well, I actually said leave your lashes on.

Wynonna: And I said leave your leg on, and we'll do this thing. You gotta come to see a show because we are so entertaining.

Mark: Okay, so now the show is still a band, but it's just the two of you up front, kind of sitting on stools?

Wynonna: It might as well be because he takes up so much of the room.

Mark: I want to see this.

Wynonna: It's just raw and it's real and it's imperfect. It's guts and glory, blah, blah, blah.

Cactus: But you feel something.

Wynonna: This one makes people go-- I literally wait for people to come up out of their seat-- They say the idea of a good person speaking is when people lean forward like they're really into it. Does that make sense?

Andrew: Yeah.

Wynonna: Isn't that interesting? Because people can sit there and go, okay, show me. Or they can lean in like--

Andrew: Yep.

Wynonna: That interests me. That's what he has helped me do is make me realize what is and what isn't true for me 'cause I think when you get raised up in the business, you hear a lot of stuff and you hear a lot of projection. And you have to undo it at some point. You have to go, take off the mask. Who am I really, you know? Who am I? And I think it's just now since, well, since we got married, it happened because you forced me against my will.

Andrew: To get married?

Cactus: And it is kind of the two of us. You know, the drums-- God always told me-- God always spoke to me, even in the Highway 101 days, that, you know, I want the drums on the front of stage, is what the Lord said. So I could've started out further back with her, but then as we've gone, God has spoken to me and--

Andrew: And to her mostly.

Cactus: Yeah. And I try to go out there on social media and say, "What do you people want to see more of now?” And they always say more drums. So it's gotten a little closer to where it's kind of just the two of us up there.

Mark: I gotta see that. So are you hollering from the drum set?

Wynonna: He has a freaking microphone.

Mark: Oh, you're back there.

Cactus: And during the show, we do songs where it's just her and I. I play guitar, playing-- We do a little bluegrass.

Andrew: I'd listen to him play guitar all day long.

Mark: Do you do any kind of mushy love songs to each other?

Wynonna: We, on the Christmas tour--

Cactus: Tell him how mushy it is. I'm your king bee

Wynonna: You're my king bee. I wanna be your queen.

Cactus: Yeah. Yeah, girl.

Wynonna: And then I do that, and people are dying.

Cactus: We have been given this chance to start the next, I keep saying, the next-- The Big Noise Record began the next

Wynonna: The next season.

Cactus: 10 years. She's had a 10 year Judd, 10 year Wynonna, 10 years of this phase now, and this is going to be, I believe, probably the most important--

Wynonna: I have to share with you for 10 years.

Cactus: Since she began because she still has the same voice and everybody can still go, oh my god, but then to do that autobiographically, where all these songs we're writing are really telling the story from that side of the curtain. And it's just going to be done in a way that it's so very real. How can anyone not go, "I need some of that"?

Wynonna: I'm writing with-- You said something earlier, and I've never talked about it and it's time. Everything has-- I was telling Wendy in the car on the way over here. I said, "This is a new season. And it's time for me to--" And we've been writing a song about the man I never knew is Charlie Jordan, my biological father. I never got to meet him. And what does that mean? And how do I write that to where it's not just, you know, the country song that makes you want to drink. It's just my story. It's time for me to tell it. It wasn't 10 years ago. It's now. And so as my children get older and I look back at my life kind of thing, so it's just a time, you know this, as you get older, you're willing to say more and be more transparent and more--

Mark: Yeah, you have less to lose too.

Cactus: Well, we've got a lyric for that that I still think, and I say this sometimes to other people when I'm discussing how we're writing and I said, you know, the lines are, you know, he was right there in Ashland, Kentucky. He was 10 miles away right there in Ashland, Kentucky, and that might not be a big thing to anyone else, but it was a great big thing to a little girl who could sing.

Wynonna: And the thing that I can't get over-- I think I cried for like weeks I was so overcome. They found a drawer full of clippings where-- And I just think about that and go, oh, you know, he never, ever I think ever felt worthy enough to meet me.

Mark: How did you discover that?

Wynonna: It's just cool. I was called into a therapy session, and I thought it was about-- I've never talked about this. I thought it was about my mom telling me she was sick or something. Ashley ended up telling me, and I remember sitting there going, whoa.

Mark: So she knew it? Ashley knew before you?

Wynonna: Everybody knew it way before I did. And so I think what I've learned to do, and that's why I sing "I Can Only Imagine" with every fiber of my being because I literally-- That song was coming out about the time, and I just remember pulling over and weeping from my, you know, the deepest part of me, going, well, I never knew my earthly father. And that's where I think it really began with my relationship of, okay, it's personal. It's not just a beautiful thought story, theme, the way we're raised. This is a personal moment where I cry out to my Heavenly Father, and it's changed me.

Mark: Wow

Wynonna: So it made me who I am today, which is incredibly curious, very interested to know who this man was that I never met. And I realize how much I'm like him in some ways. I have a brother I've never met. And it's a very weird story.

Mark: Is he living?

Wynonna: He's living.

Andrew: Is there opportunity?

Wynonna: I've been holding off. I don't know why.

Mark: What's his number? I could help you make that happen.

Cactus: You sound like me now. That's my thinking.

Mark: I mean, does he know he's your brother?

Wynonna: I don't know if he does or not. I would think he does.

Mark: Oh my God, he would be thrilled.

Andrew: Yeah. Well, but that’s your journey.

Wynonna: I'd be the life of the party.

Mark: I mean, aren't you curious that there are other cousins maybe, other brothers, sisters.

Wynonna: I think I'm so wounded by family and all that that it's so much. I'm taking a breath before I take that on. That's a whole other something to unpack, and I think there's just that worry, fear back in the early days.

Mark: They might be fantastic.

Andrew: Might be, but they-- I mean, that's a lot of back to back. I think the breather thing is really valid.

Wynonna: Well, it's been 10 years.

Cactus: She's met the cousin or whatever, right?

Mark: Well, don't breathe too long.

Cactus: Yeah. She's met at a couple of them. She's met a few.

Wynonna: I know what you're saying.

Cactus: And they have been very sweet and very normal.

Wynonna: Normal is a cycle on the washing machine.

Mark: No, no, no, no, no. There are normal people.

Wynonna: No, there are not. Then you need to get out more.

Andrew: There may be boring people, but there aren't normal people

Mark: Yeah, they're not boring, but they're normal.

Andrew: Take a little tip from my dad, Tim Greer, who's older than us all. And just receive this. You look into my eyes. You've been a gift. You were gift, you are a gift and you will continue to be a gift.

Mark: That's true. Now look over here at these eyes. You're fabulous. And I love you a lot.

Wynonna: That's three words.

Mark: And you're just something else. And I've known you forever, and I thank God you're in her life because God knows she needs you. After hearing all this stuff, now I'll know how to pray.

Mark: We want to thank Wynonna for being with us today.

Andrew: We sure do. She was a lot of fun, wasn't she?

Mark: Oh yeah.

Andrew: You can check out some of Wynonna's music down in our Amazon affiliate link, which is in our episode description.

Mark: And if you want to binge watch Dinner Conversations--

Andrew: Who wouldn't?

Mark: You got to do that right now on Amazon Prime. Dinner Conversations is brought to you by ChildFund, a community development organization that has been envisioning a world where every child is free to live at their fullest potential no matter where they're from or what challenges they face since 1938.

Andrew: Partner with us and our good friends at ChildFund to change the world and the life of a child by considering sponsoring a child today.

Mark: It really does take so little to make a difference.

Andrew: Visit childfund.org/dinnerconversations.

Mark: A child is waiting.

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Surviving Miscarriage featuring Jason Crabb and Sonya Isaacs

Grammy winner Jason Crabb and beloved singer-songwriter Sonya Isaacs bare heart-and-soul as they tenderly relate their families’ experiences from the other side of miscarriage.

Grammy winner Jason Crabb and beloved singer-songwriter Sonya Isaacs bare heart-and-soul as they tenderly relate their families’ experiences from the other side of miscarriage. Don't miss a single episode of Dinner Conversations — subscribe below!

Transcript

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Mark: So how long have you known Jason Crabb?

Andrew: Probably five, six years now. I first met Jason on the set of his show when I had a little Christmas record come out and he invited me to be a guest, but I was a fan of his way before. That voice and the songs and that teardrop he has that's right down in his throat.

Mark: That cry in his voice. I've known him I don’t even know how long, but I've watched his growth as a dad, as a husband, as an artist. And this conversation we had today is about what a father goes through when his wife has a miscarriage. You know, we've heard many conversations about what the wife goes through. My mother personally went through it, many women have, one in four, you'll hear in the conversation, Jason mentions that. Well, what is it like for the father?

Andrew: Yeah, it's a conversation that we have had more and more, especially wanting to be tender and compassionate towards women because it's such an experience for them, but it is interesting to hear how Jason experienced it as a dad. He is obviously a really cool, amazing dad who has a palpable love for his family, for his wife, and for his daughters. So it's great.

Mark: There's one seat left at that table and it's yours, so let's join the conversation.

Jason: Okay, do you like my shirt?

Mark: Yeah, it's pretty.

Jason: Y'all look really nice, and I just wore my--

Andrew: No, no, no, I've got it open like you.

Mark: You know what, you're the artist.

Jason: Yeah.

Mark: We are the interviewers. So here we go.

Andrew: What you got, Mark?

Jason: Oh boy.

Andrew: So growing up with your family--

Mark: Yeah, well, go ahead.

Andrew: Okay, singing, when did that make a turn though? I don't think, you know, as long as I've know you, I've never heard when did that turn to be like this is something I wanna potentially--

Mark: Oh, I've heard it. You want me to tell it?

Andrew: No, shut up.

Jason: Now what, when did this--

Andrew: When did it turn to become a profession, yeah. When did you say, hey, this is not something we're just doing in church, this is--

Jason: As the family or for me alone?

Andrew: As the family.

Jason: Okay, as a family, dad's writing got a little more serious. I heard the… Honestly, I love music. I've always loved music. It's been a part of who we are, who we were, all my life, you know? But I will say that the piece that really grabbed ahold of me was one day I was walking in the halls and somebody had a Gaither video on, and this is a true story, a Gaither Homecoming video on, and Mark and Michael English and I forget. I think even Terry, Terry Franklin, and it was one of the very first ones and Mike was singing "Had It Not Been.” And that grasped ahold of me like… I don't know if it was like the Lord was… It was a divine moment that God said, "Okay, I'm gonna touch your heart with something that’s gonna change your life.” And I just, at that moment, I walked by and I heard that voice in such a, I don't even know, I don't even know how to describe.

Mark: I don't either.

Andrew: Was it the voice, do you think, or was it the song?

Jason: Well, both, all of it.

Andrew: Together.

Jason: It was all of it, them singing together. It was all of it. It was just suppose God searched through heaven, couldn't find one willing to be. I mean, just if you speak those lyrics, it's just powerful. But then when you got a voice like Michael English that's singing it--

Andrew: It's even more powerful.

Mark: And the tear. What I hear in you, and I hear in Michael, is this tear, this cry, this passion, and--

Andrew: In your voice.

Mark: In the voice, yeah.

Andrew: It's like a teardrop.

Mark: You're running the lyrics through your brain.

Jason: You know what?

Mark: A lot of people fail to do that.

Jason: You told me, probably about 15 years ago, we were on stage together and you gave me a compliment and I've never forgotten it and it's rehearsed in my mind many times and I've shared it with a lot of people, is that you said, "I like the way you run the lyric through your head before you sing it."

Andrew: What do you mean by that?

Mark: Well, I didn't mean before you sing it, as you're singing it, and, you know, you're thinking about what you're singing.

Andrew: 'Cause it's in your face and in your eyes.

Mark: Yeah, and I'm not thinking about my next lick. I'm not thinking about anything other than I'm telling a story, I'm doing it on pitch and on the pocket, that's what I'm doing. And if you're not telling the story, you're not doing it right.

Jason: Yeah.

Andrew: Do you think of the full circleness of that? Like someone is hearing a song, maybe it's, who knows what it is? It's "Sometimes I Cry," maybe whatever, a Jason Crabb song, hearing how you interpret that song. And in 20 years, we’ll be sitting around the table talking about, you know, it’s when I heard Jason Crabb sing. I mean, do you ever think about that? You are having that kind of impact.

Jason: I really don’t because I don't take myself that serious at all. I can promise you that. I'm just like, Lord, thank you for the dates that's on the book so I can pay my house payments. You know what I'm saying? These girls are expensive.

Mark: Right, let's talk about that. You have two girls.

Jason: I have two girls!

Mark: One loves basketball, one loves music.

Andrew: And they're teenagers now.

Mark: And they're teenagers. And you've had a miscarriage.

Jason: Yeah.

Mark: Well, when was that?

Jason: Two of ‘em. Two of 'em.

Mark: Two of them?

Jason: Two.

Mark: When was that?

Jason: That was before Ashleigh was born, my first, my oldest.

Mark: Oh, okay, you had the miscarriages first?

Andrew: A series of miscarriages, wow.

Jason: Yeah, that was tough, really tough. Especially not knowing, as a man, how to, you know, we're three or four years in the marriage and we're wanting this to happen. It was just tough, it was really tough. And then I remember when she told me when we were gonna have a child. I was out trying to-- I can remember this plain as day. I came in. We'd just built a little house in Kentucky, her and I, and they had scraped all the the topsoil off the land where we built our house. And so I'm trying to get the grass to grow outside, and it was so hot and I had the sprinkler system out there and I'd burned it up because I put too much fertilizer on it.

Mark: Uh-oh!

Jason: And so I was aggravated and it was just a scorching hot day and I came in and Shellye goes, "Jason, I got something to tell you. Soon you're gonna be a daddy.” And I just, I'll never forget it. We sat down on the couch and cried and--

Mark: Now, this was before the first--

Jason: This is the first pregnancy.

Mark: Okay, got it.

Jason: The first pregnancy and it wasn't long after that till she started having complications and she just knew that it happened, you know? And we had a miscarriage, and it happened again. It happened twice.

Mark: How far apart?

Jason: About, I wanna say about seven months I think. My timing is-- I'm really not good at that.

Mark: But there was a time--

Andrew: They're fairly close.

Jason: It was fairly close, but there was--

Mark: And then she tells you "I'm pregnant again,” so you're all excited again.

Andrew: But are you excited or are you kind of--?

Jason: No, I'm a little nervous, you know? I really am because we don't know, you know? We're questioning, you know? And, you know, the second one, this is the hardest, this is… My wife is an amazing, amazing woman. She's my very best friend, but she's one of the strongest people that I've ever met in my life. And she's a rock, like she's just...

Andrew: Solid, yeah.

Jason: She's just solid. It doesn’t... I'm thankful that my children have someone like her in their life because, you know, you can't shake her. You might rattle her, but she ain't going nowhere.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jason: You know what I'm saying? She's not going anywhere. She's not picking up. So anyways, when she had the second miscarriage, we were scheduled to do a Thanksgiving Singing News photo shoot, and we had the cover and they had sent the camera guy, just everybody in and it happened like maybe 15 minutes before we were supposed to sit down at the table and do the shoot.

Andrew: And give thanks.

Mark: It was about Thanksgiving?

Jason: Yeah. And so, here I am, you know, wondering what do I do? I mean, we're just a young married couple, The Crabb Family, this is a big shoot for them. What do I do? Do I just… Do we cancel everything? I mean, what am I doing? And I'm trying to be strong for her and to let her know, to be compassionate, you know? And she's first and you know, this. Then she goes-- She looked and she goes, "Let's go do this thing. Ain't nothing we can do.” And I went, “Okay." This is gonna bust wide open when this is over. You know what I'm sayin’? This is tough. But she just gathered herself, we went and did the photo shoot, and we dealt with it later and I don't know how.

Andrew: What was dealing with it later? Like, what does that look like? 'Cause I think the conversation around miscarriage, miscarrying, used to be, I feel like, such a silent grief, death conversation. You didn't talk about it, maybe that’s... I know some women in my life have miscarried and still feel some shame around that, especially if they’re unable to have children. It's just the body's not working it out. What does that conversation look like later when kind of the floodgates open up? What are you hearing from her, and what are you feeling? You know, what are your feelings as a father? Future father?

Jason: As a man, you’re trying to know what to do and be strong, which is very, very tough because you want to be that rock for her, but also you wanna be compassionate, you wanna be encouraging.

Andrew: Tender.

Jason: Exactly. You wanna be very tender and you wanna be, you know, that person that she needs. Sometimes that's hard because you don't know exactly what that is. You know?

Mark: And how do you know if she doesn't tell you?

Andrew: And she may not know, right?

Jason: I think it's a lot of unknowns, you know? Probably what's running through her mind is, I mean, is he upset with me, that if he thinks that I can't have children, it's this, all these things, and so you're weighing these things out. And it really is a good thing to maybe have someone to talk to to help connect the dots. We didn't really, we just kinda dealt with it. Here we are on the road, on a bus, running the roads, doing what we do, you know? And going through all of this, you know?

Andrew: With people everywhere.

Jason: Yeah. And then, you know, my younger brother, Adam, you know, here we had had a couple of miscarriages, and his wife, and they come to us and tell us, you know, "We're getting ready to have a baby,” when we've had two and we, you know? It was really a trying moment.

Andrew: Did he know? Did your family know about the miscarriages at that point?

Jason: Oh, absolutely.

Andrew: Sure, okay. So this was shared.

Jason: Everything was open.

Mark: I think it's more common than we--

Jason: One out of every four. One out of every four.

Mark: Because my mother miscarried before me. And if that baby had lived and come to full term, I wouldn't be here. I wouldn't have had my--

Andrew: Tell me about it.

Mark: I'd of missed my window of opportunity.

Andrew: Can you imagine?

Jason: Oh, I got you.

Mark: I'm about to backhand you. So let me finish this before he makes very cynically light of it. I think it's more common that women shouldn't take it personally, that it's like you’ve done something wrong, no.

Andrew: Well, were there things that did encourage you guys that people spoke? And were there things that weren't very helpful?

Jason: Oh, absolutely.

Mark: What were some things people should not have said?

Jason: What they shouldn't have said?

Mark: Should not have said.

Andrew: That weren't helpful, yeah.

Mark: So we'll know what not to say when that happens.

Jason: Well, I think that there is times when they wanted to say, well, we don't know, there could've been something, you know, God's trying to protect you from. And that honestly does not do anything, you know? The thing is, as you say, you know what, you've been on my heart, I've been praying for ya. That means more than… 'Cause I think people mean well.

Mark: Oh, sure.

Jason: They mean well.

Andrew: They wanna solve it properly.

Jason: They want to. They would really not mean to hurt you, and they wanna say the right thing. Sometimes just saying just a one little hey--

Mark: Or just being there.

Andrew: Yeah, or a hug or a whatever.

Jason: Yeah, yep, absolutely. So that was really powerful. I had a pastor friend though that really was very instrumental. And we are people of faith, I mean, we're strong believers and we grew up in a Pentecostal church, and man, I'm telling you, my grandmother would do prayer cloth. She would pray over cloths and put 'em in my wallet and my pants pocket, underneath my pillows, pray, you know? That anointing cloth. There was a man though that we went to his revival service, and he told me he said, and this was after two miscarriages, he prayed for me and Shellye, brought us up front, whole church prayed over us and he said, "I want you to go get a bag of Pampers.” And he said, "And put 'em somewhere where you can see 'em every morning."

Mark: A bag of?

Jason: Of Pampers. Diapers. And he said, "You put 'em somewhere where you can see 'em every morning, and you thank God for the promise. You thank God that there's that child.” And speaking that in faith. And so we did that.

Mark: You did it.

Andrew: Which takes, I mean, that takes an element of faith if you think about it because there's got to be fear in that faith too, like okay, we're gonna do that, we're gonna step out in faith. We're gonna speak this out that there is a child to come 'cause there's gotta be something in the back of your head that also says, "But what if they don't?"

Mark: Well, faith without doubt is kind of, I mean, you don't need faith if there isn't doubt.

Andrew: But was there doubt?

Jason: Which is true. Faith and doubt goes together because faith is speaking things that are not.

Mark: Everybody thinks if you're doubting, you're sinning, you're not trusting, no.

Andrew: That increases our faith, doesn't it? Without doubt, wouldn't our faith not--

Mark: There's no need for doubt.

Jason: There's no need for faith without doubt.

“There’s no need for faith without doubt.”

— Jason Crabb

Andrew: Yes, okay. So I wanna ask another question about it.

Jason: I know that sounds, that sounds a little deep, but it's really true.

Mark: Think about it, it's true.

Jason: But then also to have faith and to do that, you gotta be willing to put yourself on the line. And you gotta be willing to go, you know what? It means enough to me that if I've got egg on my face at the end of this, it's okay. And I think that is very important, especially for believers.

Andrew: Well, and then, it's not egg on your face in the end, right? Like if this turns out differently than I'm hoping, expecting, praying for, that doesn't say something less about God.

Jason: Doesn't say anything less about God. It just says less about your… It's kinda one of those things that you've gotta do it to not worry about what anybody's thinking. You gotta get to a place where you don't care, which is a good place, it's a freeing place.

Mark: You're saying when you, well, I'm confused.

Andrew: Don't care about what other people think if it doesn't--

Jason: If you, if I…. An action of faith, like the Pampers, I did that.

Mark: And you didn't care what anyone thought.

Jason: Yeah, if you do that, to a lot of people that don't know about faith--

Mark: That's crazy, yeah.

Jason: About faith, that’s, aw, bless their hearts.

Mark: Hey, you know what? It worked.

Jason: Exactly.

Mark: Nevertheless, I don't know, you could say, well, was it really the Pampers or was it the sperm hit the egg? It's both.

Jason: Here's what I'll say, it was God. 'Cause all of it's a miracle. Every bit of it's a miracle.

Andrew: Life is a miracle in general. Even living it within the grief and the pain.

Jason: Look at this, look at this. I mean, our hands, the blood that flows through our veins, how we are made up, that's a miracle of God.

Mark: Fearfully and wonderfully made.

Jason: Isn't that awesome? Man, that gives me those good ole gospel, good Holy Ghost bumps.

Andrew: What if I don't have 'em?

Mark: Because you're not saved.

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Andrew: And while you're there, check out some of our friendly merch. We've got show mugs and Season One and Two DVDs, and we got these little note cards so Mark can write me a note that says "You're the best co-host."

Mark: Oh, yes. Well, you know, you get that after every episode. And what about this mug with our faces on it?

Andrew: What says good morning better?

Mark: It's like we're on both sides, so lefty or righty, you get to see us every morning.

Andrew: You know, I think it's time we get back to those guests.

Mark: Yeah, probably.

Andrew: Sonya, I am so glad that you know how much I love you and have for years, and some of that's just through my own personal experience with your family's music and how that has had an impact for me personally in some very dramatic personal moments in my own life. I wanna talk about, today, some of your story and your immediate family story, your and Jimmy's family's story. But take me back, before we talk about your family today, as it looks today. I wanna hear… I was reading about a story from when you were, I don't know, maybe a teenager and visiting Dollywood. You know what I'm talking about?

Sonya: Yes, I do, I do. Okay, so ever since I was a teenager, my heart's desire was to be married and have children. I just wanted, especially a daughter. And I guess the only reason I can make sense of that at such a young age was just because of the great relationship that really all of us have with our mother and what a great mom she is and just having that innate desire to be a mother one day. And so they had this little dress shop at Dollywood called Little Dolly Dress Shop, and I, you know, I couldn't help but just wander in there one day when we were there and they had the most adorable dress hanging there and it was the cutest thing I'd ever seen and I must've been like 17--

Andrew: Yeah, so you're a kid--

Sonya: Or 18, I was young, I was young. But I knew that one day I would have a daughter, and so I bought this little dress. It probably would fit like three to six months. It was little ruffly, kind of a polyester fluffy dress with strawberries all over it with a matching bonnet, little checkered pattern with strawberries and a little bonnet. I mean, it just looked really old timey. It was just so cute and I just couldn't resist! So I bought it.

Andrew: So you bought it. I mean, you're not married or anything.

Sonya: Oh, no, no, no. No, I mean, this was before all that. So I bought the dress and I just said, "I've gotta keep this.” And so I put it in a closet, and I just said, "One day, one day," you know, “I'm gonna have children.” I ended up getting married. My first husband and I, we did not have children. We were married for seven years. I went through a divorce, and I was single for many, many years after that before I met my husband, Jimmy, and I kept the dress.

Andrew: All this time, mm-hm.

Sonya: Everywhere I went, I kept the dress. I don't know why, I just kept the dress, so I kept the dream.

Andrew: Fast forward then, so 2009, you and Jimmy get married, right?

Sonya: Yes.

Andrew: And you meet somewhere around that time too. That was a pretty quick courtship though.

Sonya: It was.

Andrew: I mean, you knew when you knew, right?

Sonya: Yeah, we knew, we knew. We're celebrating 10 years this year, and so we only dated for three months and then we got engaged, and then three months later we got married.

Andrew: Wow.

Sonya: So it was just, it was fast, but we knew and that was also a fulfillment of prophecy in my life. And I also have been prophesied that I would have children.

Andrew: Did that ever--

Sonya: And this is before I met Jimmy.

Andrew: And it's before Jimmy. So does that feel like, I mean, I'm curious about this. I have been prophesied over once or twice. Not in such specific manners, right? More about demeanor and spiritual disposition. When someone prophesies someone and says a word, you know, that's from the Lord, very specifically in your life, like you will have children, you'll be a mother, and you're not seeing that happen or you're not seeing with who that's gonna happen with, kind of wilderness type area, does it feel… I mean, were you assured all the time? Or were you like that may not have been a word from the Lord, you know?

Sonya: Well, because I knew the source, I knew that it would come to pass. And so I think it was just God saying, "Here's a negative hope. Hold on to this until the time is right.” And so I never gave up hope, even when I started in my 30s. I didn't marry Jimmy until I was 35, 34, 35, and so it was late and I didn't know if I could have children, you know? I didn't know if he could have children. I didn't know anything. But I still felt in my heart that I didn't need to worry about it, you know?

Andrew: So then you get married and you get pregnant with your first child.

Sonya: Ayden, yes.

Andrew: With Ayden. And so that pregnancy?

Sonya: It was great. It was normal, easy. Again, I was 30, well, let's see, 2011, I have to backtrack and subtract. He was born in 2011, so, how many years?

Andrew: We'll just say he's 8-years-old.

Sonya: He's 8 now, so eight years ago. Let me think. I was 37.

Andrew: Okay.

Sonya: And actually he was born three days after my birthday, so I think I'd just turned 38, and that was easy and he was great. So for three years, it was just us and Ayden, and we were content. Because he wasn't a good sleeper, so we waited for a while.

Andrew: Yeah, right.

Sonya: And then we decided to try again.

Andrew: So you didn't have any fear or trepidation necessarily or any anxiety going into this second pregnancy?

Sonya: The only anxiety I had was my age and knowing that the older you get, the higher the risks are for problems and issues for the child and for the pregnancy, but I just trusted the Lord. And I, again, I had different people sowing into my faith, like they had dreams and visions of me with a daughter and with, you know? And so I still had the dress. I had my son, and if that was it, then that was good enough. I could've put the dress on 'em if I really had had to, but no, no, no.

Andrew: Like this is what this was meant for.

Sonya: Right. No, but--

Andrew: I'll show you some of my baby pictures. No.

Sonya: I wanna see 'em, I wanna see ‘em. But I just knew that God wasn't finished yet, so I had that peace.

Andrew: So walk me through that pregnancy then, when did that pregnancy with Ava begin to turn from a healthy pregnancy into something unknown?

Sonya: So Ayden was three and a half when I got pregnant with my second child. I found out at 18 weeks that it was gonna be a girl. Again, it was just. I got that little dress out. My husband and I, with Ayden, our announcement that we were having a daughter was me holding up the dress and showing the world, you know, I have had this dress since I was a teenager and we're having a girl. That was our announcement of gender, and I was crying and it was such a joyous time. And then the doctor called me back into the office after we did the gender reveal, and he said, "I don't wanna alarm you, but I want you to be aware that there seems to be a slight issue with the way the baby's growing and I'm not concerned, I'm not alarmed, but we're just gonna watch it. It could just be the way that baby's growing particularly where it could mean that there's, you know, some issues that need to be resolved or whatever.” Enough to scare me to death. Well, it was just a few weeks later that we were touring on a weekend, and I was feeling fine. I had no issues. I had no reason to suspect anything was wrong. But when I woke up that morning, I was hemorrhaging, and it scared me so bad. And we were playing that afternoon, and so rather than stay in Georgia and go the doctor, I said, "Let's just go home. I'll go to the emergency room.” I went to the emergency room when we got home. It was midnight, and I'll never forget it when I got to the emergency room here in Hendersonville. And they ordered an ultrasound, and she came in and the lady was doing the ultrasound and the whole time she’s doing the ultrasound, she just looks like this, like, she's not saying anything. And I'm like, "Can you see the heartbeat?” You know, "Can you tell me anything?” And she's like, "I'm sorry. I'm not allowed to discuss that with you. Your doctor will be in to discuss the results with you.” She wouldn't give me anything, and I just felt like something's really wrong 'cause she won't tell me anything.

Andrew: Sure, yeah, avoiding, yeah.

Sonya: She's avoiding the topic, and so because it was in the middle of the night, we had to wait two hours for a doctor to come in with the results.

Andrew: With this lingering...

Sonya: With this lingering anxiety--

Andrew: Having no idea.

Sonya: Anxiety of what's going on and I hadn't been feeling her moving or anything, probably for, you know, a few days, but that happens sometimes. And when you're busy the way we are, you don't really notice as much. And I was still early on. I was only about, you know, 23 weeks at the time, 24 weeks. So I just thought she was not very active. Anyway, doctor finally came in. It was 2 in the morning, and she sat down at the edge of the bed. This wasn't my doctor either. She was the one on call, and she said, "Mr. and Mrs. Yeary, I'm so sorry to tell you that your baby girl has passed away. Her little heart has stopped beating.” And I said, "Are you sure? Are you sure?” She said, "I'm sure. I'm so sorry.” And she said, "We can tell by the ultrasound that she's probably been passed away for several days already.” And my body just hadn't responded to it. And she said, "You can either go home and wait for this to happen on its own or we can induce you and begin the process of labor.” And that was so hard, that decision was so hard. And in those waiting hours of not knowing whether she was alive or dead, the TV was on, we were just trying to pass the time, scared to death but praying and hoping for the best and some stupid channel was on and I said, "I don't wanna watch that.” And so we flipped it, and there were the Gaithers on TV.

Andrew: Your people.

Sonya: And we stopped and I watched those songs, those hymns that just filled the room with so much peace, like the songs of hope that I needed and so desperately in that moment, in those hours of waiting that felt like days. And I just remember feeling the Comforter fill that room with those songs, and I said, "I get it now.” I've always loved the Gaither videos. I've always loved the singing and even what we do, but here I was in a position where I was the one being nurtured by the music that I was part of creating, and it was such an amazing epiphany for me. So I'm grateful that I had faith in those moments.

Andrew: Did it take you back to that moment of you, even before meeting Jimmy and before knowing what a family would look like for you and still hoping and trusting in that promise? Did it take you back to that submission? That, you know, I heard you say earlier that you were likeIy trust in your will more than my plans. I mean, is that where your back… It's kinda like being back at square one a little bit.

Sonya: Right, exactly.

Andrew: Does it feel like that too? Like in a defeating way as well? Or was it hopeful from the beginning because of the support and your faith.

Sonya: I went through the doubting phase of, like, I know the prophet was true, I trust in you, God. And I did have my moments of thinking maybe I misunderstood, maybe it wasn't what I thought, maybe you were supposed to adopt a little girl. That's what I thought. But as time went on, I settled back into my peace of, all right, God, you know my heart's desire. So back to the story, I labored for 12 hours and gave birth to my baby girl. Her name was Ava Devorah. And the funeral home took great care of us. They have a special program that they take care of your babies. All we have to pay for is the little, what do you call that, marker. That was a blessing. And, you know, I just started healing and--

Andrew: Did you do feel like there was something that maybe someone else shared with you during this season of grief, after Ava had passed, that you feel like was really helpful in connecting that dot too?

Sonya: Yeah, I started finding so much comfort and the more that I would share my story, the more that I felt less alone, you know? Because there have been millions and billions of mothers and fathers who have lost their babies, some earlier on, some even more tragically later than me. I was six months pregnant when I lost her, six months. We were almost there.

Andrew: It's a formed baby, yeah, yeah.

Sonya: We were almost there. And she was perfect. I mean, she was tiny, but she was all there, you know? She's a life, she's a real little girl, and her soul is with Jesus. But I found so much comfort from people, so many people that sent me books and people that just… Mark Lowry called me. He called me and he said, "I don't know what--" He left me a voicemail 'cause I didn't answer, not on purpose, but.

Andrew: Yeah, well, I would’ve not answered on purpose.

Sonya: Not on purpose.

Andrew: But anyway.

Sonya: Anyway, and Mark said, "You know," he said, I don't have the words to make you feel better,” but he said, "Let me tell you this." He said, "My mama lost a baby before she had me, and if she hadn't lost that baby, I wouldn't be here.” And he said, "God has a plan for your life, and he loves you.” And that voicemail meant so much to me, like he doesn't even know what a perspective that was for me.

Andrew: And a shift.

Sonya: Yeah.

Andrew: Yeah, especially as a mother and as a woman who, again, who's wondering when it's my body. It's just like you had said before, is this my fault? Have I aged out, and I wasn't thinking and considerate of that? Of course that kind of flips when you talk about Mark telling you if his older sibling had survived that then we wouldn't have Mark. You can think about that in a lot of different ways.

Sonya: You can't!

Andrew: No, you can't actually, you're right.

Andrew: One more question about that though. If you, okay, so wanting to be so aware, going back to you talking about Shellye and wanting to be aware of her and her feelings and be tender and compassionate and all those things you wanna be as a man, as her husband, but how did you also stay aware of your… You had to have feelings too. How did you also stay aware of that in the midst of trying to care for her? Did you forget to care for yourself? Did you care for yourself? What ways did you care?

Mark: Who did you unload on?

Jason: On the stage.

Mark: Really?

Jason: Yeah, it was really… The neat thing about… I think God-- Now I look back at it. I'm 42-years-old, and I've lived a lot of life. I mean, there's been a lot of water that's been under the bridge, you know, in those years. 26 years of it was on the road. It has been on the road. And during that time was that, and God gave me a funnel and that funnel was a stage. It really was. And so what I was feeling I was putting on that stage out to people. And the neat thing is I've learned there's pretty much nothing that you're going through that somebody out there hasn't or isn't going through. And I think that that’s where the God thing happens. It's like, wait a minute, I can use my troubles to help encourage others that glorify God. I'm drawing strength from God, you know, being able to do this, and then helping them find strength in God in their trouble and their craziness and their, you know, junk, as well, and we're doing this together.

Mark: You're helping them.

Jason: We're all living this together. I might be on the stage, but that second pew, it's their stage, you know? They're feeling it, and you know, it's their place.

Mark: It's basically you’re showing your scars. And when you show your scars, everybody with those scars, they know it too. They're like I've been there. Like when my dad went to prison at 76 years of age, I remember getting on the stage, and I talked about it. I didn't talk about it for a long segment of my career. For two or three weeks, I’d be working it out on stage and then go into my bunk in complete depression. I mean, I didn't hardly leave my bunk while I was working through this. So, the stage is an outlet for us.

"When you show your scars, everybody with those scars, they know it too." - Mark Lowry

Jason: But what if it was just the bunk, you know what I mean? If we didn't have the stage. There was some things--

Mark: You need somebody.

Jason: There was some things I worked out out on the stage. I remember I went through very heavy anxiety attack and just started going through anxiety really strong. And I remember one day I turned on, I was in West Virginia and it was a little local West Virginia Christian station and those are the best because you never know what you're gonna get. You know those little pockets, you know, that I love. It was a little country station. This little lady, I promise I don't know her name, I've never heard her, never saw her name in a magazine or lights or anything. She just stood up there and she sang, "I'd rather have Jesus than silver or gold. I'd rather have Jesus, riches untold.” And I'm sitting there on the edge of the bed, thinking I'm about to honestly die, literally. I'm thinking there's no way--

Andrew: Because of the anxiety.

Jason: I can survive like this a couple more days. There's no way my body will make it. And I'm sitting there listening to her sing this, and I walked out on the stage that night and I told Justin, Justin Ellis, which plays keys, and this was before Blaine played for me. I told Justin, I said, I said, "I wanna try something different tonight.” I said, "I have never sang this song before, but I love it.” And I started singing "I'd Rather Have Jesus,” and man, something just started breaking in me there. It was full trust in Jesus. And man, that song was healing for me.

Jason Crabb singing “I’d Rather Have Jesus”

I'd rather have Jesus than silver or gold
I would rather have Him than riches untold
I would rather have Jesus than houses or lands
I would rather be led by His nail-scarred hands

Than to be the king of a vast domain
Than be held in sin’s dread sway
I would rather have Jesus than anything
This world can afford me today

I would rather have Jesus than man's applause
I would rather be faithful to His dear cause
I would rather have Jesus than worldwide fame
I'd rather be true to His holy name

Than to be a king of a vast domain
Than be held, be held in sin’s dread sway
I would rather have Jesus than anything
This world can afford me today
More than this world can afford me
'Cause I love you Jesus more than anything

ChildFund Sponsorship Message

Mark: You can help change the life of a child today by partnering with Andrew and me and supporting a boy or girl in Guatemala through ChildFund today.

Andrew: Your sponsorship will not only improve the future of one child's life. Your child's sponsorship will promote communities in Guatemala, the communities that Mark and I just visited where we saw parents who are learning to value and to protect and to advance the worth and rights of their teens and children. Who, through your child's sponsorship, are literally changing the culture of each child's community from the inside out.

Andrew: Your sponsored child is a real kid with real dreams, just like the dreams of your children and grandchildren. We know because we met them, kids that want to be doctors and lawyers and teachers, even musicians kind of like us. Your sponsorship gives these children their chance to achieve their very unique dreams.

Mark: You may not be able to change the whole world, but you can change the world for one child. Visit childfund.org/dinnerconversations to sponsor a child in Guatemala today. As a small way to say thanks for your child's sponsorship, we will send you an autographed Season Two DVD and Songs From The Set CD.

Andrew: Yes, plus a special item made just for you by the communities in Guatemala.

Mark: And every sponsor and a guest is invited to a Dinner Conversations Friends & Family Weekend in Nashville.

Andrew: Hey now, which includes mealtimes with Mark and me, private little concerts and chitchats with our friends, and a special Sunday morning service that will happen right before you head out of town.

Mark: And if you sponsor more than one child, you will have the opportunity to be a guest on an actual episode of Dinner Conversations during the Friends & Family Weekend in Nashville.

Andrew: Does it get better than that?

Mark: No.

Andrew: Does it, Mark, does it? Stay tuned for exact details, and don't forget to visit childfund.org/dinnercoversations to sponsor your child today.

Andrew: So you do have two children? Right, Ashleigh and Emma who are, what'd you say, 16 and?

Jason: 16 and 13.

Andrew: Okay, so that's got to be an interesting thing raising girls in a 21st century world.

Mark: How is it different?

Jason: You know what?

Mark: From 10, 20 years ago, as if you'd know, you weren’t raising 'em 20 years ago.

Jason: I'm really blessed. Here's how I'm blessed. I have a 16- and 13-year-old, but the band that I travel with is like 23, 24, 26. And so some of the issues that I'll go through with my kids, I tell them how I handled it. I'll talk to them. This is what we went through, this is what we, this is what I said, and I'll tell them. Sometimes they'll go, “Man, think about saying it this way." Then sometimes they’ll go, "I wish I had that. I wish I would have had that.” Or they'll say, "Your daughters are going to be perfectly fine because you are talking and that they are sharing. The very fact that they’re sharing these things with you is I promise everything's gonna be okay.” So which has really been good for me because I don't know what it’s like growing up in this age.I can be the grumpy old man to go, "Well, these Millennials. They don't have a clue what we went through and what we had to do.” You know what I mean? Honestly, we don't have a clue what they're going through. Could you imagine growing up and having a social media page? Or you could talk to whoever you wanted to at that very time?

Mark: No.

Andrew: Around the world.

Mark: I can imagine that, but I can’t-- Around the world, you're right.

Andrew: You know what I think of as like what would have probably been, I don't know, difficult for me or if I would have been susceptible to is the anonymity that’s possible with your relationship, so I can talk to someone around the world, which is both cool. We’ve had pen pals forever. But I can also overshare. I can share with the things of texting and photos and the easy dissemination of information about ourselves. I think I would have probably started confiding with someone who I don't have to touch, rather than someone who’s right here next to me, which then I'm isolated.

Mark: How have you handled that with kids? How would you-- What would you say to someone who's got a 13- or 16-year-old? Are your kids on the phone all the time?

Jason: They are.

Mark: Like me and everybody else.

Jason: But we know who they’re on the phone with. Like I said, my wife is the most incredible woman in the world. I'm gonna have to say this. There's not one thing that goes on in my house that she don't know about.

Mark: Good.

Jason: Or off the phone. We have this app called Life360. Have you ever heard of that?

Mark: I sure have. My brother's got it.

Jason: Wherever these children go, whatever time they use the bathroom. It's so funny too because it tells how fast they are going in a car. So here's the deal, like this happened, I'm telling you. My daughter is riding with one of her friends down the road. Her friend just got her license. They're going to a ball game. All of a sudden, I wanted to, I just got this, you know, this feeling, I wanna find out where they're at, how they're doing, make sure they're fine, see if the little button’s still moving down the road. I look it up, and it says 87 miles per hour, and I went.

Mark: On what road? It doesn't matter.

Jason: It don't make a difference.

Mark: Well.

Jason: I called my wife. Me and Shellye talked, and I called my daughter. I said, "Hey, honey, what's going on? Y'all good?” "Yeah, we're doing good.” I said, "Hey, can you hand your phone to whoever's driving right now?” I knew who it was, you know, and I called her name. I said, "I just wanna tell her something real fast. Just hand her the phone.” Handed her the phone, I said, "Hey, how fast are you going?" I said, "Now remember, my baby's with you, okay? Be safe, drive slow.” In other words, slow it down. And I said, "All right, you can hand my phone back over to my daughter."

Mark: Did you let her know you knew how fast she was going?

Jason: Oh, yeah.

Mark: Oh, yeah. I'd say you're going 87.

Andrew: Okay, let me just be devil's advocate for a second because I--

Mark: Devil's who?

Andrew: Devil's advocate. I'm not raising teenagers, so I am legitimately asking this but curious. As a parent, is it also to be able to have the resource of constant information about your child, which can be a very beneficial--

Jason: Catch-22.

Andrew: Could it also be like, induce so much anxiety? And like do you wanna know everything?

Jason: No.

Andrew: So how do you balance that then in a world where you can know everything? How do you and your wife kind of go, okay, but you know what, they are their individuals?

Mark: Would your wife want to know everything?

Jason: She helps me with that. See, I'm the one that’s a little bit more--

Andrew: Helicopter-ish.

Mark: Oh, you are?

Jason: She knows everything, but she kinda sifts through what she needs to deal with. So the information's there, and she'll handle whatever needs to be handled.

Andrew: What's important.

Jason: Which is really, really good. You remember Jeff and Sheri had a song out called "Let the Little Things Go.” Do you remember that song?

Mark: No, I don’t. I like that.

Jason: Oh, it's such a beautiful song, "Let the Little Things Go."

Andrew: So she helps you know what those little things are?

Jason: Yeah, like last night, my daughter had a little birthday party for her boyfriend. She's 16, he was turning 17, had a bunch of her friends over. We needed to go somewhere. We had another place that we needed to go, and I'm going, "Both of us ain't leaving.” And the funny thing was and Shellye goes, "Jason, they're gonna be all right."

Mark: Yeah, were they alone? I mean, a room full of people.

Jason: Not a room, they weren't in the house. No, no. They wouldn't be. They couldn't be in the house.

Mark: Oh, I'm confused.

Jason: They were outside at a party and outside at the lake-- Not in the house, Lord, God, no. I wouldn't let them in my--

Andrew: Shellye's like, "Just leave them, Jason."

Jason: And you know what was funny, I was getting ready and I'm struggling with this. I'm thinking I'm gonna tell her to stay here, I'm gonna go do what we need to do, go to that thing, Shellye can stay here. I was talking to my manager, which a great, great man, Philip Morris, talking to him and I said, "I think we're getting ready to leave.” I said, "But Ashleigh's blah-blah-blah.” He goes, "That's good for you to do that. It shows that you trust her, and she needs that.” And I went, "Hey, Shellye, let's go! I think we're gonna be late.” So I was like.

Andrew: You just did it.

Mark: That one word did it.

Andrew: But let her rise to the occasion, right?

Jason: But when I came back, you should have seen her. She's like, "Dad, we had a great time. It was great. Thank you for this. Thank you for letting us do this, thank you,” and it was just wonderful.

Mark: Isn't that great?

Andrew: But it's hard.

Jason: It was for me 'cause I wanna go, uh-uh! You ain't, this ain't happening.

Mark: Well, I wanna play the devil's advocate. If something had gone wrong--

Jason: See.

Mark: Would you have made the right decision? And would you say, oh gosh, I shouldn't have, you know.

Andrew: I should have done something different.

Jason: Honestly, true. That's the conversation that we had. It's like, are we setting ourselves up? Are we doing this or whatever? And then it goes back to I trust my daughter in the way that I've raised her.

Mark: Yeah, you got to.

Jason: And I know who she is. She doesn't struggle with this. I mean, she looked right across, she looked at me and she said, "Dad, I want you to know this. I don't do—" We were having a very serious conversation. She goes, "I don't do those things, I don’t. You gotta trust me.” And I said, "Okay."

Andrew: Well, and isn't trusting your kid also part of realizing you're not in total control? And what if something did go wrong? Well--

Jason: Now that's my wife. "Now if you're going to…" I mean, you know, that's what she says.

Mark: Oh, she's on to you about being in control?

Jason: A little bit.

Mark: 'Cause you said that's your wife.

Andrew: Like a control freak?

Jason: No, my wife says, “You're gonna have to let her breathe. If she's gonna do something wrong, she gonna do something wrong when you're--"

Mark: So you're the helicopter and she's not.

Jason: A little bit. Yeah.

Andrew: Maybe that's so 'cause she's a woman--

Jason: We're two different type of helicopters.

Mark: So let me ask you this.

Jason: One is a news helicopter, one's a police helicopter. You know, the news gives us the information, that's my wife. The police helicopter, that's me, with the light going, "Ah! I caught you.”

Mark: That's brilliant. That's interesting.

Andrew: Is that because you remember what you did when you were 16?

Jason: Are y'all hungry?

Andrew: Okay, okay, one more question about this though. Like speaking of boyfriends and just our culture today and having girls, specifically having girls who are growing into women, and having a culture that doesn't always treat women well or respect them just as a base level. How do you both encourage them to respect themselves, maybe in ways they aren’t encouraged by culture? And how do you treat them? And what's the motivation about how you treat them and care for them and show them who they are to you?

Jason: That's very tough. I think a lot of that is Lord, help me, guide me to, show me how to help do this in the right ways. There's times when you go, you say, “No." There's times when you let them learn by themselves, but there's stuff that you gotta guard them against. I think some of the conversations that I've had with my eldest daughter. She's like, "Look," when we have that conversation, and she said, "Dad, I don't do this kind of stuff and that.” And it was one of those things to where she said, "And guess what? The people that I surround myself, respect me.” And that meant more to me than anything. You know, she said, "The reason that I like the boy that I'm dating is because he respects me.” Man, that gets me.

Mark: Wow.

Jason: That really gets me because I just don't want any boys liking my daughter. But if you know--

Andrew: But if they are.

Jason: Yeah, it got me. She said, "He respects me."

Andrew: That says she respects herself too.

Jason: It does, and so that's really tough because there's a tough line here because, you know, think about it, a 13, 14, 15, 16-year-old, the boys are going through the changes of life, different things are happening, they have no clue what's going on. Their bodies are changing, their voices are changing, they are running crazy. There's a lot of emotions that's going through their body at that one particular time and they are not. And this is just, I mean, since we're just being on it, they are not thinking with their brain at all. They're thinking about everything that's changing in their life, and respect is not in the forefront of their mind at all. And so that's why it's so important, if you have daughters, to teach them they have to respect themselves for the boys to be able to respect them.

Andrew: They're kinda helping the boy out a little bit.

Jason: It really is, it's really helping the boy in such a way, I think. And I think you can be set up for failure. That's why I think a lot of girls that have trouble at home are looking for approval from a man or someone in a home that find it in the wrong place at the wrong time. You talking about the wrong place at the wrong time, a young lady can find herself in a bad spot, especially with a young man that is going through the changes of life. Her home's a wreck and you're just set up for some disasters. So I think our young ladies need to be shown. They just need to be shown how to respect themselves, and how they do that a lot is how their fathers treats the mother. How they treat the mother and how they treat, you know--

Mark: Well, I've been to your house and your girls adore you, your wife adores you, I think you're doing everything right myself.

Jason: I'm gonna say I ain't doing everything right, but I--

Mark: What would be one thing you've done wrong?

Jason: I get high-strung sometimes. I got a little temper. I think like when I was talking about changing the hat sometimes. Now I don't-- When I say hot temper, I'm not throwing nothing or slamming doors. I'm just like, I'm just--

Andrew: Like short kinda.

Jason: Yes, just short, short. And the older I get, you know--

Mark: The less patience?

Jason: I guess, I don't know.

Mark: For stupidity.

Jason: Well, some of it. That's it, that's it.

Mark: I just can't take stupid no more.

Andrew: It’s all about perspective.

Jason: It is. If it doesn’t line up with my thoughts, it's stupid.

Mark: That's right.

Jason: And so, anyway, I think that that's a little bit of maybe an issue with me sometimes.

Mark: But your family being around people, your daughters, they gotta be rubbing up against that 'cause they're the ones that will bring that out of you, and then you're faced with it, you know? That's how you know you probably have a short temper, you got daughters.

Andrew: And not being perfect is okay, I think, for kids. Parents not being perfect is not a death sentence for kids. It's parents who aren't perfect that say they're perfect.

Mark: Have you ever apologized to your daughters?

Jason: Oh, absolutely.

Mark: That's a great thing.

Andrew: Yeah, that's a way to express that.

Jason: You want me to tell you something? One time, and this is, I don’t know how much time we got. But it's like I remember my oldest got into, just kinda did something that was just a wrong step in the wrong direction, and it was based off of peer pressure. And I knew that's what it was and she knew that's what it was and I knew that's what it was, everybody knew it. Everybody knew that she gave in. It was not a positive step. It was a step if you go down this road, then what else is ahead? And so I had to deal with that. It was a Sunday afternoon. I'm coming home. My wife told me about it. She said, "You're not gonna believe this, but this is what I found out and this is what happened.” It was nothing like earth-shaking or, you know, whatever, but I had to deal with it when I got home. So I was gonna be home about 7 o’clock. She went to bed about like 4. And so, anyways, yeah, and so she went to bed, and as soon as I got home, I just dropped the bag and I walked straight in and I flip the light on, and I said, and I said, "Honey, I think you got something to share with me, don't you?” And she turned around and she looked at me and she goes, "I don't get it. I don't understand why. I don't know why I did this. I don't know why. I knew better.” And boy, it just hit me. And I said, "I know.” I said, "Here's the thing." I said, "I wanna be able to trust you with… I want you to live life to the fullest. Your mother and I want you to enjoy life, and the more that we trust you, the more that we're gonna to let you go and let you do more things that you want.” I said, "But you know, we got to learn this," you know? "If you're gonna give into peer pressure and this kind of stuff, then we're gonna have to put some reins on you just because," I said--

Andrew: 'Cause we care about you.

Jason: I said, "Do you think we want you to lay in this bed for three hours thinking about what I'm gonna say to you?” That's horrible. I said, "That's the worst thing in the world for a father to think that his daughter is worried about that.” They don't want that at all.

Mark: Making me tear up. This is a beautiful story.

Jason: You know what I mean? So, we talk, we cry together. I hold her. She asked for forgiveness. I said, "I promise you I forgive you.” We prayed. And after we prayed, she looked up at me, and she said, "Daddy, I thought… The thing that scared me the most was you're gonna think different of me."

Mark: Oh my God, that kills me.

Jason: And I lost it.

Mark: I bet.

Jason: She said, "I thought you were gonna think different of me.” And I said, "Let me tell you something, Ashleigh.” I said, "I love you more right now than I've ever loved you in my life, more.” And she looked up and she said, "You're my best friend."

Mark: Wow.

Jason: And I lost it more.

Mark: You're not supposed to make me cry. I’m supposed to be the Barbara Walters making you cry.

Jason: Well, I'm just gonna say it was a good moment. And I told her--

Mark: God, I love those kinda stories.

Jason: I told her that it'll never be brought up at her ever again, never, never. And it never was. Now, here's the thing that I want people to know about that, that God showed me through that. Number one is if my daughter, my daughter knew that I forgave her, she knew it. With the reaction of I thought you were gonna think, I thought you were gonna do this, et al. But the thing that I asked her was, you said this, the thing that I asked her, I said, "What can I do different?” I said, "You're my first. I’ve not done this before," right? "So what am I doing wrong? How can I help?"

Mark: Was that in the same conversation?

Jason: Same conversation. I asked her, I said, "What am I doing wrong in the parenting?” 'Cause I wanna be a good parent. What do you feel like I need work on? And it was the most door-opening thing for her, that she knew I didn't have, I got it wrong.

Mark: You didn't have all the answers.

Jason: No, I was big enough to say--

Mark: That is fantastic.

Jason: I get it wrong, and I know that. But it also opened up to a thing for her to have that conversation, that dialogue. I feel like you maybe should have come this way or I feel like you’ve judged me this way or that.

Andrew: Oh, she had a response?

Jason: I wanted it. She's like, "Dad."

Andrew: She didn't.

Jason: No, she said, "Dad, this has not got anything to do with that. I love you.” And she let on with that, but that was, killed me.

Mark: That must have killed her for her to know you thought, okay, could I done something better to where she would not have done this? So gosh, the dynamic of that conversation has got to be life-changing.

Jason: It was a life-changing experience for me and a life changing experience for her. And so I think that’s when I got on the bus, and I was telling you about the boys, I was talking to them and they're like.

Mark: You did that.

Andrew: You can have that experience.

Jason: So I think it's important, but here's the thing that I want people to know in that, that I learned, is that my child that next morning got up in a home that she knew that there was no condemnation in. She went and got a drink out of the fridge. She went and got to eat whatever, my God, whatever that she wanted because that was her house.

Mark: Just like our Father.

Jason: And that's God.

Mark: Yes.

Jason: And so many people are living under condemnation and under that guilt and under all of that, when you've already asked for forgiveness and you've made things right. And you walk around your own home thinking that you're second rate or that you're beat down or whatever. That's not the God that I serve. A good father would never do that. A good father never brings up past failure. A good father celebrates the future.

Mark: Come on, buddy.

Jason: And that's it.

Mark: And just think, you're a broken image of our Father. The way you did it so perfectly with your daughter, multiply that by infinity, and you've got our Father in heaven. You know, the only reason you knew how to love her like that is because of Him.

Jason: Was because of Him. I'm stupid. No, I really am. I'm just saying, I'm stupid, I know this.

Mark: But my point is all healthy parents come by it, by God. It's in your DNA. You're the image of him.

Andrew: It's his love through us.

Mark: Wow.

Jason: Yeah, I think so. And I think it's a very important thing too for people to know that, for them to walk in victory. God wants us to live life to the fullest. That's what I want for my children. They can't do it with their head hung down in shame. My girls get up in their house and know that that is their house and I will protect them no matter what, why? Because they have my last name. It's not the greatest name in the world. Crabb is pretty tough. But I've worked hard for them to have a good home, you know. My wife and I have and I want them to be proud of that name. I really do. But I also want them to know that there's love in that home and forgiveness and...

“God wants us to live life to the fullest.”

— Jason Crabb

Mark: Mercy.

Jason: Everything.

Mark: All of it.

Jason: All of its there.

Andrew: It's safe.

Jason: It really is, and I want that to be for them. But also, I want it to be a reflection that his forgiveness is enough for all humanity. You can't walk around with your head hung down in shame. When you ask forgiveness and you wanna be a Christian or whatever, you carry that name, you carry the name of God. So whatever is his is yours. If you walk around in shame and ask already, repentance, then you're almost saying that his name and he what he did on Calvary wasn't enough.

Andrew: Yeah, it seems diminishing to God for sure. It makes me God, you know, to say, "No, I’ll say how this goes down.” When He's saying, "No, this is how it goes down."

Jason: Right. And I think, I don't think anybody intends for that to happen. I think it's just guilt, but the only reason that I would share that is not in arrogance or... It's I want them to receive victory. The enemy, I believe, wants to do everything in his power to make you walk around like you're less. Yes, and oh. I just.

Andrew: Not in your house.

Jason: Not in my house. Not in my house.

Mark: In your house, your kids know they are loved, and I think when you finally, even for me at 61, it's still dawning on me how loved I am by God. And it's amazing. I mean, it's still amazing to me as it unfolds. And I think that what your kids have seen in you is a great example of the love our Father has for us. I also think that, I hear you saying this, it's one of my cliches you've heard a million times, but just because we don’t understand the mortgage doesn't mean we can't live in the house. We're the children, He's the Father, and just like your kids, that's their home. They have no idea probably what that home cost, or care. But you are the dad, you understand the mortgage.

Jason: Sometimes I let them know. Sometimes I let them know.

Mark: You know what this house cost me? 49 concerts.

Jason: You know, that's that little edge that you and I was talking about, that little edge sometimes, you know, sometimes that'll sneak up.

Mark: You gotta let ‘em know how hard you work.

Jason: And honestly--

Andrew: They get it. There's grace for you too. My dad had a little edge and is my best friend and is the most loving person I've ever met.

Mark: My dad went to prison, and I still like him.

Andrew: That's true.

Mark: We wanna thank Jason Crabb.

Andrew: We sure do. He's awesome.

Mark: Love that guy.

Andrew: You can find his music and his books through the Amazon affiliate link in our episode description below.

Mark: And you need to get those CDs.

Andrew: You sure do.

Mark: He's a wonderful guy.

Andrew: The voice, everything.

Mark: And if you'd like to binge watch Dinner Conversations, you know you can do that right now on Amazon Prime. Dinner Conversations is brought to you by ChildFund, a community development organization that has been envisioning a world where every child is free to live at their fullest potential no matter where they're from or what challenges they face since 1938.

Andrew: Partner with us and our good friends at ChildFund to change the world and the life of a child by considering sponsoring a child today.

Mark: It really does take so little to make a difference.

Andrew: Visit childfund.org/dinnerconversations.

Mark: A child is waiting.

Learn more here: childfund.org/dinnerconversations.

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S03, E02: Perfectly Imperfect featuring Wynonna Judd

5/11/20 5/11/20

Fear Factors featuring Patsy Clairmont

Popular author and wise woman Patsy Clairmont turns the table on Dinner Conversations co-host Mark Lowry as she interviews him about his life and asks the big question, “What do you fear?”

Popular author and wise woman Patsy Clairmont turns the table on Dinner Conversations co-host Mark Lowry as she interviews him about his life and asks the big question, “What do you fear?” Don't miss a single episode of Dinner Conversations — subscribe below!

Transcript

Andrew: Partner with us and our good friends at ChildFund to change the world and the life of a child by considering sponsoring a child today.

Mark: It really does take so little to make a difference.

Andrew: Visit childfund.org/dinnerconversations.

Mark: A child is waiting.

Mark: When you asked me if I would want Patsy Clairmont to interview me I thought, wow, what a great, ‘cause you know she's so smart.

Andrew: Yeah, she is smart and wise.

Mark: Asks great questions, and I thoroughly enjoyed it. She asked me what I was afraid of. What a great question. What do you fear?

Andrew: Yeah. I loved it because someone grilled him.

Mark: Yeah, it was good.

Andrew: Well, I love this conversation, and I love these two people. So there's one seat left for you.

Mark: One seat left at the table.

Andrew: So let's join the conversation.

Producer: And it's yours.

Andrew: And it's yours. So one seat left at the table, and it's yours.

Mark: You need me to do that part?

Andrew: No.

Mark: Okay.

Andrew: So there's one seat left at the table, and it's yours. So let's join the conversation.

Patsy: I have a thousand questions.

Mark: Really?

Patsy: Just a thousand questions for you.

Mark: Oh my, I love it.

Patsy: You are so funny, and I wore my thankful shirt today to say thank you for bringing such a legacy of laughter for so many years.

Mark: Oh.

Patsy: You have been so consistent in your offering, and that's why so many people love you I'm sure. Not only that you have an amazing voice when you sing and you have written unbelievable songs, but you've made us laugh. There's nothing friendlier than sharing a positive emotion, and you've created it in every space you've ever stepped in. So, from all your people through my lips, thank you.

Mark: You're welcome.

Patsy: Thank you.

Mark: Thank you.

Patsy: It's been lovely. Now, I'm known for fear. Wouldn't you know it? I'm known for fear, and here's what I want to ask you. What scares you?

Mark: I think that people would really know me. I've always thought if you knew me, you really wouldn't like me. Even when I was little, I guess that… 'Cause even the more I get to know me, it scares me a little bit, you know. And that I think humor most definitely was my tool to protect myself but also to get attention 'cause I wasn't the handsome one. My brother was a model, he did modeling in town, and then I show up with a water head. And I knew I would never be… He was real good in sports, and so I was sent to a psychiatrist in third grade because I was so hyperactive and so much trouble. But I really wanted to make people laugh. I loved... It connects you, it deflates any tension that might be in any room. Humor, and honest humor, especially if it deflates an elephant in the room, is a wonderful tool.

“Humor, and honest humor, especially if it deflates an elephant in the room, is a wonderful tool.”

— Mark Lowry

Patsy: It chases the awkward out of the air when you got a group of strangers and they're not sure they're glad to be there. Suddenly when they share the emotion that you've helped to create, they feel a little more comfortable and a lot more safe.

Mark: Right.

Patsy: So it is a gift that you've given. It's always been a gift within you. Right?

Mark: I guess, I don't know. I didn't mean to get into humor. The Lord literally, in 1977, when I was at Liberty Baptist College, on my bunk one afternoon the Lord spoke to me and said, "Why won't you do what I want you to do?” And I said, "What's that?” I mean it was almost, it wasn't audible, it was much louder than that.

Patsy: I understand that.

Mark: And I was praying and having this discussion with the Lord, and I said, "Well, what do you want me to do?” No, I said, "I'll do anything you want me to do, and you know that.” This is the first time we’ve ever had this discussion. Really the first time we'd ever had a discussion that I can recall or really since. And he said in my spirit, even if it means go in to music. 'Cause I thought that was something you did as a child. I'd had a recording contract when I was 11 with the Benson Company in town, which is a whole other life and a whole other story. So I thought that was something you did as a child. Now it's time to grow up, get a job, have a wife and 2.5 children, and support missions. That was my goal to be a business man. So I go to Liberty to study business, and the Lord, I wasn't in any chorale, I didn't audition for any singing group, I didn't care if I ever sang again. It was that was then, this is now, right? And I said, "Okay, I'll do it, but you know, this is your idea, you get the word out.” And I put out a fleece to make sure it was the Lord 'cause I'd heard that works.

Patsy: It does.

Mark: And he answered it that night, and he not only answered it, which was simple compared to what he did the rest of that week. Jerry Falwell passed me in the hallway, "Sing on TV Sunday.” Charles Hues walked up and said, "Will you be my singer?” He was the evangelist, the big time evangelist, in school who traveled every weekend, and immediately within a week I was booked up through the end of that year and have not been unbooked to this day.

Patsy: Wow, wow.

Mark: And then the humor came. Let me tell you, had the Lord said "I want you to go into comedy," I would have found myself in the belly of a whale. I would've run.

Patsy: Run so fast.

Mark: 'Cause it was never my… I still do not consider myself a comedian and shiver when I'm called that, which I've learned to accept it, but I'm not.

Patsy: Wikipedia says you are.

Mark: And that's fine. I mean, they gotta label people. it helped the record label when I signed with Word to know what I was. You know, they got to label you something and that's fine. I don't care. It's a tool. To me, it's just a tool, and it's a tool that comes easy for me. That's how it started. And then we were in a van wreck, which became a story I told on one of my early albums called Pivot on Your Good Foot and Walk Back To Me. That's what the nurse kept saying when my good foot was broken. But that's a whole... You know, every horrific thing I go through is a good 20-minute material when I'm done. So that's the reason on the motorcycle wreck, which you can Google it if you haven't - Mark Lowry motorcycle wreck.

Patsy: I've heard it.

Mark: On the way down, I told myself, don't go to sleep, don't miss this. Because I knew something was gonna happen. You know, I'm going down face first without a helmet. First of all, I hope I live to tell myself how stupid that was. But anyway, so I know to pay attention when the sh-woo-ooo hits the fan.

Patsy: Sh-woo-woo.

Mark: Mm hmm.

Patsy: Nice word.

Mark: That's the Christian way of saying it.

Patsy: I see. Well, you have a lot of fun words that you use and capture people. And I still remember at Women of Faith when you did the Sandi Patty thing with the wig.

Mark: Oh, yeah.

Patsy: Hysterical. And I just saw a picture of you on something with Patty.

Mark: Yeah, last night at the Gospel Music Association Awards, which I was fortunate enough to be inducted into the Hall of Fame in 2011 I think. Or a couple of years ago. I think they said 2011, but it feels like not that long ago. But anyway, so I was asked by Chonda. They induct people to the Hall of Fame, and they give an honors for those who aren't in music but have done good things.

Patsy: Mm hmm.

Mark: And through her Branches ministry, they honored that. And so she asked me if I would come and present it to her, so I did. And so I ran into Sandi and Evie. That was Evie.

Patsy: I haven't heard that name in years.

Mark: I'm only 4 foot 11, but I'm going ahead. You could sing that. That makes me feel 10 feet tall. Remember that song?

Patsy: I surely do. But I thought I'd grown up past. I was still five way.

Mark: Oh, did you make it?

Patsy: And when I went to the doctor recently, they said that’s a dream of your past.

Mark: Oh, really?

Patsy: So I am headed downward.

Mark: Are you starting to shrink?

Patsy: Yes. I said, “I'm not gonna die. I'm gonna evaporate.”

Mark: Me too. These pants, look at it. See how, they used to not hang like that. I'm shrinking.

Patsy: Well, join the club.

Mark: I gotta get this hemmed up.

Patsy: But I checked and your birthday, which is coming up in just a little over a month.

Mark: I'll be 60.

Patsy: That is entry into some of the most productive and exciting years because now you're at an age you can choose what you do.

Mark: Exactly.

Patsy: And that adds another level of joy.

Mark: But haven't you found it's hard to say no when you've said yes for so many years.

Patsy: Yes.

Mark: But when you learn to say it, doesn't it come easy?

Patsy: But here's what I want to know. Does 60 scare you?

Mark: Oh, no, can't wait.

Patsy: Good. 'Cause those are great years. Energetic years, creative years.

Mark: Good. That's good to hear.

Patsy: Yeah.

Mark: I didn't know, I don't have a clue what… You don't know what's coming.

Patsy: I say enjoy it. 70's not that hot, but anyway.

Mark: Is it not? Is 70 to 80 a toughy?

Patsy: Whoo!

Mark: Really?

Patsy: Things change, we’ll just put it that way. Including your ability to keep up with yourself so.

Mark: I've thought about retiring. I can't, I'm never retiring. But I am gonna sabbatical every now and then. And about every... I did it when I was 40. I thought it was over then 'cause, you know, I couldn't think of anything new to say. And I'm repeating myself and I'm doing that now. And here's the thing. If you don't have a life off the stage, you'll have nothing to talk about on the stage.

Patsy: So you're going out for an adventure.

Mark: I am. Life is an adventure. That's the reason I've never understood the thing about arrival. There's no arrival. Now when I was young, there was an arrival. I wanted a Word recording contract. When the Lord called me, I had some goals. Never thought about being in the Vocal Band, but that was a good thing. It turned out to be very good thing.

Patsy: That was a very good thing.

Mark: But that was never a goal 'cause I didn't think I was able or capable. And also singing was never my priority. Once I realized those audiences that I'm singing, those Independent Baptist churches that I performed for from 1980 to 1988, 200 a year.

Patsy: Wow.

Mark: Roy Morgan, who graduated the same year I did, took the BBF directory, and this guy could book a pork chop into a synagogue. He booked me 43 concerts in 41 days right out of college, and they didn't know who I was from a hole in the ground.

Patsy: Wow, wow.

Mark: So I did that for eight years, but what I learned during that time of phenomenal honing my craft. Oh my gosh, they were great days. I had my PA system in the trunk, my polyester suits on a bar cross the back seat, my albums and my eight tracks lined up on the back seat, and my notepad right here in case I thought of something while I was driving. And I'd sometimes pull over 'cause I'd be thinking, me and the Lord. I'd just turn the radio off and just start thinking and talking to God about stuff. And get to laugh and sometimes so hard I'd pull over, and I'm laughing and I'm crying and I'm writing stuff down that I'm going to talk about that night. And it was just a wonderful time. And nobody knew me. You know, they didn't know what to expect.

Patsy: No expectation.

Mark: There's this kid from Liberty. Right. So I'd stand up on the first song I'd sing, In this very room, there's quite enough love for one like you. And it's 15 minutes on a Sunday morning. And the first song is beautiful, but it's slow. And it's boring if you think you're going to have to hear 15 minutes of this. I learned to set them up that you're about to be so bored. And then after I got through that song, I'd talk. And I talked about Miss Barth, my sixth grade teacher, which became one of my stories, and I talked about being a hyperactive kid and being on Ritalin and they would laugh. These Independent Baptists would not clap because that's giving glory to men. They wouldn't shout 'cause they're afraid someone might think they're doing it in another language. But they would laugh. And I knew they were listening. And when I could see them listening, 'cause when I'd sing, I could tell they weren't really listening. You know, I can't hit the high notes. That's what they listened to. But when I talked, and so I started talking more.

ChildFund Sponsorship Message

Mark: Dinner conversations is brought to you by ChildFund, a community development organization that has been envisioning a world where every child is free to live at their fullest potential no matter where they're from or what challenges they face, and they've been doing this since 1938. ChildFund's mission is to help bring positive and lasting change to communities around the world by removing the barriers that keep children from realizing and reaching their dreams.

Andrew: Worldwide over 570 million children are living in extreme poverty. For too many families, access to health care is a luxury and opportunities for education and employment are extremely limited, forcing parents to often make choices that hinder rather than promote their children's futures. ChildFund's community development programs address these issues so that children around the world don't just have to survive, they can truly thrive.

Mark: Today, it is the support from sponsors like you that allows ChildFund to focus on the children and build lasting relationships with the communities like the ones we visited in Guatemala. ChildFund strives to help provide communities with critical necessities, including education, clean drinking water, food and nutrition, basic health care and hygiene, and helping children and parents alike know and understand their basic human rights.

Andrew: We believe every one of us have been created unique with a value on purpose and in love by God. We have been created in the image of God. The children we met in Guatemala are image bearers of our Creator. Think about that. And I believe to love God best we must learn to love our neighbors even better. Our neighbors like these children in Guatemala. ChildFund is giving us that unique opportunity, all of us, you guys and us, to serve God by loving these children through sponsoring a child today.

Andrew: Yes, plus a special item made just for you by the communities in Guatemala.

Mark: And every sponsor and a guest is invited to a Dinner Conversations Friends & Family Weekend in Nashville.

Andrew: Hey now, which includes mealtimes with Mark and me, private little concerts and chit chats with our friends, and a special Sunday morning service that will happen right before you head out of town.

Mark: And if you sponsor more than one child, you will have the opportunity to be a guest on an actual episode of Dinner Conversations during the Friends & Family Weekend in Nashville.

Andrew: Does it get better than that?

Mark: No.

Andrew: Does it Mark? Does it? Stay tuned for exact details, and don't forget to visit childfund.org/dinnerconversations to sponsor your child today.

Patsy: So it's fair to say that you've never been afraid of getting up and communicating in some form. Is that correct?

Mark: Well, afraid no. Butterflies?

Patsy: Oh, that's good. Adrenalin.

Mark: Yeah, adrenalin.

Patsy: Yeah.

Mark: Wanting to say something that they can take home with them. You know, I pray every night before I go out there for, number one, God go with me, which he always does. Thank you, Lord. And that I will say something that matters to somebody, you know. That they can take that little cliche they might hear me say and hold on to. Or a song that might, whatever. These are all tools.

Patsy: Did you ever feel like you've failed an audience?

Mark: Yeah. Last night, probably. I should've taken a little more time introducing Chonda. I went too quick. And I think I didn't do good.

Patsy: You probably did excellent. But I understand going back.

Mark: 'Cause the night was so long, and I was thinking, oh gosh, I don't want. I don't want to... I want to get it to Chonda. So I went to bed kind of discouraged about that. But I rarely ever, ever. I mean, if I notice something went wrong, something really went wrong 'cause I'm not a noticer and I do not rehash the night. To me, it's like passing the test. It's like with the end of the school year, I'd throw my books away 'cause that was over, never to be thought of again.

Patsy: So you just let it go?

Mark: And to me every day is a test, and most of them are pretty good and easy. Good days, or what I call the easy test, but the days you hit Shepherd Drive without a helmet, the day you get the doctors report, you know, those days? That's when you learn stuff about God.

Patsy: Really learn it.

Mark: Yeah.

Patsy: At a deep level. Do you ever feel like you hide behind your humor?

Mark: Oh, I'm sure.

Patsy: I mean, I do, and I'm just wondering.

Mark: Sure, describe, define that.

Patsy: Well, when I feel that I'm not doing well or I'm feeling insecure or I'm afraid of a situation, I'll make some little funny comment or I'll tell a funny story to change the atmosphere.

Mark: But is that bad?

Patsy: I don't know that I'm saying it's bad. I'm just saying it can be a refuge.

Mark: Yeah, I'm sure I did growing up. Like I remember... I don’t know if I dreamed this. One of my earliest memories is I went with my brother and my mother on one of his modeling jobs in Houston. And all these beautiful kids were there, you know? But somehow, I ended up in a corner with all those beautiful kids listening to me talk, and they were laughing. And I can remember that. And I think that is probably when I realized, okay, I can fit in with this. This is my... Maybe I didn’t... I don't think I was old enough to even think that through. I'd only been there three or four or five years. What do you know? But I remember them laughing. And I remember I liked it.

Patsy: Yes, there is a joyous thing to the sound of group laughter. I can remember hearing an audience laugh and that waft up, and I thought for this I was born.

Mark: Didn't you, and you know, you and I both had the privilege of knowing what that feels like.

Patsy: Yes, it's a lovely thing.

Mark: I remember when I was... My first time I was in front of 11,000 people with the Gaither Vocal Band. It was a Gaither’s praise gathering in Indianapolis that he did for years. They did for years. But it was early on. I was still auditioning for the Vocal Band, and Bill turned me loose. And it was in the round, all right. It was in the round. So the stage is here. So there's 11,000 people facing you from every direction.

Patsy: Right.

Mark: And I tour into I was born in Houston. I was raised in a Christian home. My daddy was a church deacon, my momma was church piano player, and I was a church brat. And I went on into the hyperactive stories. And I'd never heard that many people laugh like that. And it was... And being able to time, you know the timing thing you get going. It's like playing tennis, which I've never done, but I can imagine it's like you hit it, they laugh, you hit it back, they laugh, you hit it again. It is invigorating, isn't it?

Patsy: It is. I do coaching and I've been asked how can you teach someone timing and I said there's a lot of things you can teach, timing is not one of them. It's a listening. It's a feeling, and you know this is the time to enter back in. This is the time to pull back out.

Mark: Yeah, and that's why Gaither always left my mic open.

Patsy: He trusted you.

Mark: Well, I don't know about that 'cause I crossed the line a time or two I'm sure. In fact, I can remember a couple. But he still left it open because you cannot be a second late. When the opening is there, you cannot filter it. You've got to trust this unregenerated brain to make sure you're... I think I am filtering. I must be filtering because I've never said anything that's really horrible that I know of, you know?

Patsy: That's miraculous.

Mark: Yeah. It is. Well, the worst--

Patsy: For any of us.

Mark: The only time Gaither ever got on to me was one time back in the big days, 20,000 people there, and we were in the round in Charlotte probably. A New Year's Eve ‘cause it was a huge crowd. And I said a line because everything we did was off the cuff at one time. But if it works.

Patsy: You did it again.

Mark: You just do it again. And then if you add something to it and that works, you do it. If something doesn't work--

Patsy: You take that out.

Mark: Yeah, there's no rehearsal. It's just in the moment, and Gaither forgets nothing. He can remember every setup. Sometimes the next night he'd set it up, and I'd already forgotten. That's all I had to learn, to remember those.

Patsy: That makes me feel great.

Mark: Yeah. And so when I said something, I did a joke that didn't go over. Can't remember what it was. And it was crickets. And I said, “Oh well, I'll save that for when I go secular.” Okay, and I just moved on. I mean, it was just it was so fast. It wasn't like, ah! But in Gaither's heart, it was ah! And he took me aside during intermission and said, "You've got to apologize to that crowd.” I said, “Why?" He said, "You told them you're gonna save that joke for when you go secular.” And he said, and this was probably 1989, no 1992. So Amy Grant crossing over, everybody was still kind of sensitive towards that. You know, there's that the church didn't accept that real good for her.

Patsy: They didn't know what to do with it, did they?

Mark: They didn't, and when you don't know what to do, do nothing. That's the best thing you can do. Until you figure out what to do--

Patsy: Hush.

Mark: Hush. Remember, you’re the kid, He is the Father. He will deal with us. So I rared up because Bill will let you do that. I mean, I've stood up to him many times, and when I disagree, I can't just go along. You know, I just can't.

Patsy: It's not in you.

Mark: And he has learned to appreciate that and trust it too. And I had no intentions of apologizing until I actually did it. And I was in the second half of the show. And I said, "You know what I said in the first half?” I said, "About save that joke for when I go secular?” I said, "I'm sure most of y'all didn't even hear it.” I said, "But Bill cornered me at intermission and said I had to apologize. As a first of all, didn’t y'all know I was kidding?” I said, "Where am I gonna go? We have 20,000 people here tonight. Where do you go from here?"

Patsy: That's right.

Mark: People Magazine asked me years ago when I was interviewed by them when I was an up and coming and everybody thought I was gonna be somethin’. They asked me do you ever want to cross over? And I said, “Yeah, if I can take the cross over."

Patsy: Oh, sweet.

Mark: I ain't going without Him. But I mean, I would have no intention. The world didn't call me to this. You know, really. I wouldn't be doing this if God hadn't called me, and I'm quitting the day He lets me go 'cause I'm not addicted to it. I can live without it.

ChildFund Sponsorship Message

Mark: You can help change the life of a child today by partnering with Andrew and me in supporting a boy or girl in Guatemala through ChildFund today.

Andrew: Your sponsorship will not only improve the future of one child's life, your child sponsorship will promote communities in Guatemala, the communities that Mark and I just visited where we saw parents who are learning to value and to protect and to advance the worth and rights of their teens and children, who through your child sponsorship are literally changing the culture of each child's community from the inside out.

Andrew: Your sponsored child is a real kid with real dreams, just like the dreams of your children and grandchildren. We know because we met them. Kids that wants to be doctors and lawyers and teachers, even musicians kind of like us. Your sponsorship gives these children their chance to achieve their very unique dreams.

Mark: You may not be able to change the whole world, but you can change the world for one child. Visit childfund.org/dinnerconversations to sponsor a child in Guatemala today. To learn more about Dinner Conversations, visit dinner-conversations.com.

Mark: Oh yes. Well, you know, you get that after every episode. And what about this mug with our faces on it?

Andrew: What says good morning better?

Mark: It's like, we're on both sides, so lefty or righty, you get to see us every morning.

Andrew: You know, I think it's time we get back to those guests.

Mark: Yeah, probably.

Patsy: Okay, I'm gonna turn this right around in a little circle and ask you this. I'm going to go back to the topic of fear. And I want to ask you, do you think that women are more susceptible to fear than men, or do you think--

Mark: The women that I'm close to, I would say yes. I call one of my dear dear, one of my favorite people in the world, my dear friend Colleen. She's on a lot of my Mondays with Mark because we go out and eat a lot together. She's divorced, and we've been friends since high school. And I call her Death Doom and Destruction, and her mother is even worse. And she's 90. I mean, what do you have to fear at 90? Right? You've already outlived everything. All your friends are dead. Enjoy what you got left. What are you fearful… But they're scared. You know, I got these scooters. They won't ride the scooters, you know, they're scared. My gosh, you've got to die of something. You know?

Patsy: Let's make it something exciting.

Mark: Don't you want to live while you're here? You know, so I don't know. What do you think? Do you think women are more fearful than men?

Patsy: I just know my own journey. And it was one of great fear, but I found that fear was my hiding place. So that was a discovery. I still had to deal with all the fears, but underneath the fear was anger.

Mark: Do you fear anything now?

Patsy: When I was a child, what I feared most was my mother using both my names. When she said Patsy Gene, I knew I was in big trouble and she was 4-foot-10-and-a-half, and you did not mess with my momma 'cause she'd get you. So that did then. Then I went into collecting fear as a hobby. Evidently I had so many, but today what do I fear? I fear... No. I can't think of anything that particularly threatens me at this point like it once did.

Mark: Yeah.

Patsy: There's that comparison thing. You always think back. This is where I was. This is where I'm at. I've come a long way.

Mark: And don't you find that the things you feared that never happened.

Patsy: Those aren't the ones that I should've been afraid of.

Mark: But they never happened. You know, waiting for the other shoe to fall. I was waiting for everybody to find out I'm really not that funny or I really can't sing baritone. I'm waiting on Bill to discover that I don't always act like a Christian. Come to find out, he doesn't either. You know, when I found out Gloria Gaither… Well, not Gloria so much. I really don't know what. You know, I don't know what I would say her sin that easily besets her, but I like knowing what it is. I like knowing at least everybody's got one.

Patsy: Ooo, mine is cranky witchers.

Mark: No way.

Patsy: Yeah, I get so cranky. I just got a puppy. Do you know that people in their 70s shouldn't have puppies?

Mark: Why?

Patsy: Well, they just don’t have the skill anymore. It's like having an infant trapped in your arms.

Mark: Well, you're going to keep it, aren't you?

Patsy: I'm so in love with this puppy, but she's sassy, she misbehaves. She bites, she barks.

Mark: No, oh no.

Patsy: She's got so many bad habits, and I looked at her and I thought, this is me. This is me in fur. And so it has been very eye opening to see. I used to judge people who had yappy dogs.

Mark: Oh, yeah.

Patsy: And now I've got a yappy dog. Don't judge people.

Mark: No, I've never had a yappy one.

Patsy: 'Cause it'll come back on you.

Mark: Yeah, I don't judge. You know, I'm lucky 'cause Bo showed up 15 years ago. He's still with me. Bo, my little black, now gray-headed, dog. But anyway. And then Stanley, who’s passed, found him couple years after Bo showed up eating trash behind the Walmart. Now these two dogs were street dogs, and they were the sweetest. They are. Bo still is. Kindest. And then I've had a couple that I bought which were Yorkies, and they were a little entitled. I think when you buy them, they have a little bigger spirit of like thinking you might owe them something.

Patsy: Well, this one actually someone bought it, and it was so naughty she didn't want it anymore, so I took it saying love conquers.

Mark: Yeah, right.

Patsy: I could be wrong.

Mark: You could be wrong. What kind is it?

Patsy: It is a Shih Tzu Bichon.

Mark: Anything starts with Shih Tzu you might not aught to own.

Patsy: I should have reconsidered.

Mark: Yeah. They're like little mops running around there, aren't they?

Patsy: They are.

Mark: They're cute. Does she sleep with you?

Patsy: She does not. She comes up on the bed and sleeps at the foot of the bed for a while, and then I make her go to her cage and she’s so happy to get there. If I don't send her in time, she jumps up and looks at me like, come on, send me to bed.

Mark: Oh, I love that.

Patsy: So love dogs, but what I love most in life is the people God has transformed for purposes they've lived out. And you've done that so well.

Mark: Oh my, thank you.

Patsy: So thank you for what you bring to the body of Christ, because God has claimed it and proclaimed it to be medicine, and we live in a sick society that needs to love themselves well so they can get in touch with Jesus, the One who brings us such joy. So thank you. Thank you, my friend. This is for you.

Mark: I love you.

Patsy: A toast.

Mark: Thank you.

Mark: I can't believe I told her all that. That little old woman asked so many questions. I've ruined my testimony.

Andrew: Don't worry about it, Mark. Like you always said, no one sees this show.

Mark: Oh yeah. What was I thinking?

Producer: That's good.

Mark: We want to thank that sweet Patsy Clairmont for being with us.

Andrew: One of our favorites.

Mark: Oh yeah.

Andrew: Interviewing you, God bless her.

Mark: Oh, bless her.

Andrew: Oh gosh, so you can find all of Patsy's books, which will be helpful in understanding what Mark said in this episode, in the Amazon affiliate link below.

Mark: Yeah, and if you want to binge watch Dinner Conversations, you can do that right now on Amazon Prime. Dinner Conversations is brought to you by ChildFund, a community development organization that has been envisioning a world where every child is free to live with their fullest potential no matter where they're from or what challenges they face since 1938.

Andrew: Partner with us and our good friends at ChildFund to change the world and the life of a child by considering sponsoring a child today.

Mark: It really does take so little to make a difference.

Andrew: Visit childfund.org/dinnerconversations.

Mark: A child is waiting.

Learn more here: childfund.org/dinnerconversations.

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S03, E02: Perfectly Imperfect featuring Wynonna Judd

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5/4/20 5/4/20

A New Normal featuring Jaci Velasquez and Nic Gonzales

Latin music couple Jaci Velasquez and Nic Gonzales shares the joys and challenges of raising a child with autism.

Latin music couple Jaci Velasquez and Nic Gonzales shares the joys and challenges of raising a child with autism. Don't miss a single episode of Dinner Conversations — subscribe below!

Transcript

Andrew: Partner with us and our good friends at ChildFund to change the world and the life of a child by considering sponsoring a child today.

Mark: It really does take so little to make a difference.

Andrew: Visit childfund.org/dinnerconversations.

Mark: A child is waiting.

Mark: Years ago I was doing a concert in Houston, Texas, and a little girl was gonna open for me. She went on to be a contemporary Christian music superstar for a while there. Her name was Jaci Velasquez, and her husband Nic Gonzales are joining us today, and they're gonna be talking about their son, their oldest son, who has autism, and their whole journey with that and how they relate to their son and how that's turning out for them.

Andrew: Yeah, they're really amazing people, and I've gotten the opportunity to be in their home and see how they interact with their children, with Zealand and Soren, with their unique needs and unique personalities. And I love the way they are shepherding their family, so I thought we gotta have them on.

Mark: Absolutely, and there’s one seat left at the table, and it's yours! So let's join the conversation.

Andrew: This is what I love about you guys the most, and I was telling Nic this earlier. Even though I've only been around you guys with your kids maybe two, three times, but I love how you relate with your children. You talk with them, you converse with them. Is that something that was inspired by your own family life or not, or is that something new?

Jaci: Well, I think for me personally it's probably a little bit inspired by the ways I wish my parents would have maybe done with me. Like I have this funny thing that, actually, it really scarred me as a child because--

Nic: That's why we're here.

Jaci: And it's really goofy.

Mark: Let me get my pad.

Andrew: Hold on, let me, hold on, I need to--

Jaci: It's really goofy, but my parents would promise me that they would put batteries in my toys when the batteries were low.

Nic: I remember this. This is so good.

Jaci: And they would always forget.

Nic: That is so great.

Jaci: And so I would go to play with it, and I still didn't have any new batteries in there, so it wouldn't work. So because that scarred me as a child, I make sure we have a plethora of every kind of battery known to mankind because if the batteries run out, I'm gonna make sure that that battery, if I told them I'm gonna do it.

Mark: That really did impact you.

Jaci: It really did.

Mark: Is that the worst thing they did?

Nic: And that's how we communicate with our sons so openly. I have no idea.

Mark: Why do you think you remember that?

Jaci: I don't know why.

Mark: You weren't abused.

Jaci: No, no.

Andrew: Did you feel like you couldn't go ask for, like--

Jaci: Well, no, it's because it was like a promise that was made that was never fulfilled.

Andrew: Sure. And in a child's mind--

Jaci: It's a big deal.

Andrew: Yeah. So that goes along with the conversation. And so there were conversations you wish your parents had had. I know, Nic, this is probably true for you too because we talked about it earlier. But has that inspired, has that been a direct inspiration for you talk with your children. You don't talk down to them, you don't--

Nic: One of the things that, because they're growing up in church, we actually… There was a lot of things that were almost unsaid growing up with my family personally, and things that I really wish that we had been able to talk about. Because I think in a church setting sometimes it can be misunderstood that, oh, he has a real problem. Oh no, then they must not be doing something right for the Lord. And that wasn't the case at all. It just meant that--

Andrew: He was human.

Nic: It was almost like we’re gonna ignore the problem so that way I don't have to talk about him, so we don't have to deal with him, so we don't have to tell anybody about him, about the church.

Andrew: Oh, okay. 'Cause your dad was a pastor.

Nic: Parents were pastors, yes, and we came from a long line of pastors. And so now that I'm an adult, I can talk about that quite a bit, but four hours is all we got. But growing up that way, and then being married to Jaci, Jaci's a very honest person. So honest, and so brutally honest, that I learned that right away that if I have no secrets with her, it makes life so much easier for me. And I'm not talking about just in my heart of hearts, I'm talking about everything: phones, emails. If you're a married man out there, I always tell people this-- People love to give advice. I don’t. But one of the things I always say--

Andrew: But here's some.

Jaci: But here's some, right.

Nic: Here's what I always say.

Andrew: Let's hear it.

Nic: As long as you don’t have a private email or a private way of getting information into your eyeballs, you're gonna be fine. Just make sure--

Mark: Wow.

Nic: I don't even have my own email address. It's a, what is it called?

Andrew: Jaci will read this at Gmail.com?

Nic: No, I have a, um--

Jaci: It's an alias.

Nic: An alias. Like I don't even have my own account. So literally when I wanna buy a movie on iTunes or something, I'm like, "Babe, I don't remember your password.” And she's like, "Well, where's yours?” I was like, "I don't have one. I am one of your children."

Jaci: I am you.

Nic: I am literally one of her children on that thing, and so that's what it is.

Jaci: It's important because even in raising our kids, if you tell the truth, I will forgive the truth, if you tell me the truth. I always tell the boys, “So what happened? Who hit who? I'm not gonna be mad.” And they don't actually hit each other, but just anything. "I won't be mad, but just tell me the truth.” "Okay, mom, I did it.” "Okay, well, don't do that again. I'm not mad, but thank you for telling me the truth."

Andrew: Well, and when they can tell it like… Like you weren't raised in an environment where you didn't feel like you could tell the truth necessarily You said like bigger issues in teen years, whether that's with sexuality or whether that's with relationships with friends or whatever, so if we feel like it's being communicated as that you can't tell the truth, then what are you gonna do? You're gonna lie. That goes for your children. That goes in your marriage. So you're actually, by honoring the truth, you're encouraging truth-telling.

Mark: You've got two children.

Jaci: We have two boys.

Mark: Two boys, one is autistic.

Jaci: Our oldest son, Zealand, is autistic. And, yes.

Mark: What was that like?

Andrew: When you discovered or--

Jaci: Well, I think when Zealand was born… Let me put it to you this way. Zealand was the easiest baby. Oh my goodness, we could still kind of have a life. We would go out and have sushi and take him with us, and he would sleep in his carseat, just the coolest, easy.

Andrew: Like you left him in the car?

Jaci: No, no.

Andrew: Just kidding.

Jaci: But man.

Nic: It makes it sound like that's all we did. We could go to church too.

Jaci: Well, I'm just saying we could actually like--

Nic: We could go eat sushi with our boy!

Jaci: Like it was super easy. He was just--

Mark: Was that before you found out he was autistic.

Jaci: Oh yes, way before. Well then, about 19-months-old, we started noticing he wasn't meeting the milestones other kids his age were meeting. So instead of... Normally, in those situations, I bury my head in the sand. I'm like, I'm gonna pretend this isn't happening. But with him, we didn’t. We didn't bury our heads in the sand. We actually went and got early intervention, and they had these people come to our house, and they worked with him and helped us figure out what could be going on. Developmental delay, okay. Got him some speech therapy, private therapy, occupational therapy at Vanderbilt. We didn't care. We were gonna do whatever it took. Well, he was getting older, still was not meeting the milestones for a boy his age. And then baby brother is 14-and-a-half months younger, so we saw what milestones should look like based on baby brother, who was meeting them. And was already getting a little more advanced than big brother.

Andrew: So it's not being called autism at this point.

Jaci: No, and it was interesting because I wanted to know what it was, but there was some kind of, a little bit of hope, a glimmer of hope, when it was developmental delay. Because delay, that means you could catch up. But I guess it was the end of second grade, they pulled us into an IEP meeting. Being a special needs parent, I've learned so many words that I never knew I would have to know. And I actually know what they mean, you know, individualized educational program. So they pull us into this annual IEP meeting for Zealand. And we already talked to the pediatrician. All the information was sent from the pediatrician to the school system, and then it was time to deliver the information, right? Well, they sat us in this board room, principal, vice principal, occupational therapist, speech therapist, special needs teacher, everybody you can possibly imagine, and they said, "Zealand's autistic.” And I remember just my heart breaking. It was like, it was a strange kind of twofold feeling. It was like a weight was lifted off, but then a weight was put on at the same time.

Andrew: Relief to know.

Jaci: Relief to know but the fear of the unknown. What is this new journey like? What am I supposed to do? Okay, God. Okay, apparently, you saw something in me that I couldn't see in myself because somebody once told me, "God only gives special children to special people.” And Zealand is special. And I guess God could trust me that I would fight and that I wouldn't give up, and that I would research and that I would do whatever it took to make sure Zealand had every opportunity for success in his life. And as a mom, I had to go through a mourning period.

Mark: I bet.

Jaci: I went through a mourning period of like mourning the dreams that I had for him. I prayed for 10 fingers, 10 toes, and they were perfect, 10 fingers, 10 toes, perfect. But when he was in my belly, I had all these crazy cool dreams for this baby. So I kinda had to mourn those dreams.

Andrew: Like what kind of dreams do you feel like you've had to mourn or will mourn?

Jaci: Well, conversations, normal conversations with him. What do you wanna do when you grow up? Things like, will he get married and have kids? I don't know. I hope, I still hope, but I had to kinda go, okay, step back. It's time to start dreaming new dreams now. Now we need to get you to communicate and not just on the topics that you feel are interesting but also being able to have this kind of conversation. And I think it was ironic for me. Daddy and I, we've done music our whole lives. I started traveling and singing with my parents when I was 9-years-old in the back of a car. And so my whole life, our whole lives, have been dedicated to ministry from the time I could even breathe. And I guess I was pretty frustrated with God because I thought it was ironic that God gave me a son who can't communicate when our whole ministries have been based on communication.

Andrew: Interesting. Yeah, yeah. Does that feel like… I would think, I'm not a parent, but I would think if I was a parent, one of the things I would love in a relationship with children is the ability to see similarities, like I get that.

Jaci: Yeah, that's me, I did that!

Andrew: Yeah, and do you feel sometimes like, I don't get anything. Or do you catch those glimpses?

Jaci: Well, he's messy, and that's like me. The younger one is super organized and loves collections just like daddy.

Andrew: Specs.

Nic: Specs.

Jaci: And Zealand also, he has my feet.

Mark: How old is Zealand?

Jaci: Zealand is 10.

Mark: And how is he doing? And how far along is he on the scale, or is he communicating now?

Jaci: He communicates what he finds interesting. Now if you ask Zealand a question, like "Hey, Zealand, did you have a good day?” "Yes, ma’am." That's it. "Who did you play with today?” "Tommy and Taylor.” And that's it. There's nothing else. I know that's pretty typical for a guy in general. But baby brother, I can ask him other things, and he'll tell me more. There's more stuff. But Zealand, Zealand has a great sense of great pitch and great rhythm, which is something you can't teach. That's something that’s either in you or not. And I feel really blessed that God gave him that. He can probably sing better than he can speak, which is a gift, I feel.

Nic: And as far as his communication is concerned, it's not a... We're not at a point where we can't get things out of him, how he's feeling. He's feeling sick or bad. It's just more there's all of these working things that go in with our minds where you're crafting a story in your mind all the time. And I say all the time meaning not all the time, but you're constantly in conversation, you're crafting a story. Well, the way his mind works, it's a little different. It's almost like that crafting depth is much shallower. So that's where the literalness comes from with him. I think what Jaci was saying about the irony of that is that both of us using our voices all these years, and his speaking is very rounded. So even though he is communicating with us, his speech is very rounded. It's real round sounding. No sharpness to it, so that’s where she was talking about baby brother, we could hear instantly. We were like, whoa, that is a--

Andrew: Different.

Nic: Crystal clear, beautiful speaking voice already, and he's only 9. He's 9, just turned 9. But you can hear his voice is very… With all the sharpness and correctness when you hear-- You know when you hear these kids on Disney Channel, and you go, "What a well-spoken little child."

Jaci: That's Soren.

Nic: Yeah, that's Soren. And then to see his brother, how he struggles with it, but then to watch baby brother never give up on him. Baby brother doesn’t give up on. That's his… One of the things we talked about… Once again, this goes back to talking early on with our children, we have programmed them. They are best friends.

Jaci: Best friends.

Nic: If no one has your back, your brother's got your back to the point where we always say, “Well, if it's two against one, then you win.” That means if you agree with you, you agree with you, you two can overtake daddy's decision on what we're eating tonight. "Oh, we're gonna eat pizza.” If one says, "Well, I wanna eat chicken,” it's like, okay, well, then daddy chooses. And then one says, "I'm eating pizza. We're eating pizza.” Both of, okay. So immediately two against one.

Andrew: That's one way to get them to agree.

Nic: They're only... It's two against… It's them against the world.

Mark: That's cool.

Nic: Now we've done that, once again, this is our first run at it. It's not like we had a couple of extra children--

Jaci: You know, to practice on.

Nic: And or, I didn't have any family here. And Jaci has no nieces or nephews in town. So it's kinda like I usually call my brother, who was in Austin for a long time who just moved up, but I would call him. And he has boys that are two years--

Jaci: Two years older than Z.

Nic: Two and three years older, so that way, he was going through things, and I would literally just ask him how he did it. So I would just ask him, and he is about two years removed from me, so he's already gone through the process. About every two years, every three years, a child really goes through a developmental change, whether that's into teenager. Now he's about to have… He has two middle schoolers now, which we don't have, and so I'm asking him, "Hey, how's it goin'?" He doesn't know I'm gathering intel.

ChildFund Sponsorship Message

Mark: Dinner Conversations is brought to you by ChildFund, a community development organization that has been envisioning a world where every child is free to live at their fullest potential no matter where they're from or what challenges they face, and they've been doing this since 1938. ChildFund's mission is to bring positive and lasting change to communities around the world by removing the barriers that keep children from realizing and reaching their dreams.

Andrew: Worldwide, over 570 million children are living in extreme poverty. For too many families, access to healthcare is a luxury, and opportunities for education and employment are extremely limited, forcing parents to often make choices that hinder rather than promote their children's futures. ChildFund's community development programs address these issues so that children around the world don't just have to survive, they can truly thrive.

Andrew: We believe every one of us have been created unique with value on purpose and in love by God. We have been created in the image of God. The children we met in Guatemala are image bearers of our Creator. Think about that. And I believe to love God best, we must learn to love our neighbors even better, our neighbors like these children in Guatemala. ChildFund is giving us that unique opportunity, all of us, you guys and us, to serve God by loving these children through sponsoring a child today.

Mark: Visit childfund.org/dinnerconversations. A child is waiting. As a small way to say thanks for you child sponsorship, we will send you an autographed Season Two DVD and Songs From The Set CD.

Andrew: Yes, plus a special item made just for you by the communities in Guatemala.

Mark: And every sponsor and a guest is invited to a Dinner Conversations Friends & Family Weekend in Nashville.

Andrew: Hey now! Which includes mealtimes with Mark and me, private little concerts and chitchats with our friends, and a special Sunday morning service that will happen right before you head out of town.

Mark: And if you sponsor more than one child, you will have the opportunity to be a guest on an actual episode of Dinner Conversations during the Friends & Family Weekend in Nashville.

Andrew: Does it get better than that? Does it, Mark?

Mark: No.

Andrew: Does it? Stay tuned for exact details, and don't forget to visit childfund.org/dinnerconversations to sponsor your child today.

Andrew: Well, I mean, if you think about it, I was gonna ask about Soren. You kind of answered it. I was wondering, did you ever worry about, because Zealand requires a certain energy and attention, I could ask the question. You've already answered it. It's like--

Mark: Do you favor him?

Jaci: I don't favor either one of them. For me, it has to be fair.

Nic: Fairness is a big, big deal.

Jaci: Everything. It has to be fair. We wanted baby brother to have some experiences that Zealand maybe didn't want. So we got him on a soccer team. He didn't like doing soccer. We took him off soccer.

Nic: It required him to run.

Mark: I'm with him.

Nic: He decided it's just not worth it, man.

Mark: You need to be chasing me if I'm gonna run.

Nic: There's a dog chasing me, I'm running.

Mark: Exercise is ridiculous.

Jaci: Well, he wears the same size as his big brother, so yeah, it is ridiculous apparently. Poor guy. So he wanted to do swim, so I put him on a swim team, and he loves swimming. He's on a swim team. He loves it. Well, Zealand didn't wanna do soccer, and now he's thinking maybe he wants to do swim. So it's interesting always trying to be fair, but also trying to… Because Zealand doesn’t wanna do something, that doesn't mean that big brother can't do something.

Nic: Right, that's true.

Jaci: So it's always trying to--

Andrew: Balance it.

Jaci: See what should happen.

Mark: Obviously, Loren is--

Andrew: Soren.

Mark: Soren.

Jaci: Soren with an S.

Mark: Soren and Zealand.

Jaci: Zealand with a 'Z'.

Mark: Right, so Soren is normal is not the right word. Doesn't have autism. But you can't treat them the same. You've got to--

Andrew: You wouldn't treat them same anyway.

Mark: I mean, I'd treat them the same, but it seems like one would need more attention.

Jaci: You know what's interesting?

Nic: But you would… I would say, just to answer that, you would think.

Jaci: You would think.

Nic: But the truth of the matter is is that I think that that comes from setting a good course when we were younger obviously. And when we had our little babies, we were like, look, regardless of what happens, this is what's it. The fairness thing-- You would have to be in our house for a little while to understand the fairness thing. It is ridiculous. To the point where they have the exact same bed. Their rooms are painted exactly the same. Almost like twins in so many ways.

Jaci: I even dress them alike.

Mark: They have separate rooms.

Jaci and Nic: Separate rooms.

Nic: And only because of--

Mark: Are they both wanting that?

Jaci: No, they'd rather stay in the same room.

Mark: No, I'm saying the similarities of their rooms, who's deciding that?

Andrew: Yeah, but so they like the similarities.

Nic: We are.

Jaci: We are.

Mark: You are.

Jaci: They don't have an option.

Nic: Well, when they start working and start paying for all that stuff they chose that.

Andrew: Does that make it simpler for Zealand?

Jaci: I think so.

Nic: I think so.

Andrew: So there is a method to that.

Nic: There's a little bit of a method. We never want him to feel as well, 'cause we're always... A lot of people think about Soren, our little one, and they think, well, how must this affect him. The fact of the matter is is that a lot of people just think maybe Zealand doesn't think about these things at all. But once again, we're not gonna give… We're not gonna let that be an option where he's gonna grow up and say, "Hey, you guys could've done something different here or there." And so that's where… Now if it were a boy and a girl, I think those things change.

Jaci: Yeah, that would be different.

Nic: Those are all those things, but because they're both boys and they're so close in age--

Jaci: So close.

Nic: It's been really good for us to be able to do that, and I think that they appreciate it. And if you're around our sons enough they both have manners.

Jaci: Yes.

Nic: That is a big thing in our house.

Jaci: Huge.

Nic: It is huge. It is the golden ticket.

Andrew: I feel like I'm now self-conscious. I'm thinking, I don't eat with a lot of manners.

Nic: They eat like boys, but I mean, it's just far as how they refer to people--

Andrew: Kindness and politeness.

Nic: And all of those things, and so those are just… We don't know how to navigate, necessarily, parenthood like this. This was a curveball, so to speak, but we're handling it like anybody else would. We're taking our swings the same way, so to speak. So anyway, all that to say--

Mark: Has it been a burden?

Jaci: No, no, because for me Zealand is the most and least complicated person on the planet. Sometimes he’ll be laughing, and I'll go, "Zealand, what are you thinking about? What is making you laugh?” He'll be thinking about something he saw two weeks ago that happened at school that he laughed. And I'm like, how are you doing this? So that's why I say complicated. But then uncomplicated because when he gets home from school, he walks in the door, drops his backpack on the floor, and takes his pants off and his shirt, and runs around in his underwear all day.

Nic: It's not complicated.

Mark: It's simple.

Jaci: That's real easy, that's easy.

Nic: I think a lot of kids do that, but yeah, easy.

Jaci: No, no, the moment he walks in the house.

Mark: He takes off the clothes. Now that's not very polite.

Jaci: No. But it's his house.

Mark: That's true.

Andrew: My abode.

Jaci: I'm also on the board at my kids' school.

Mark: Are you?

Nic: Now that's the biggest job she's had, yeah.

Andrew: Making it go down?

Jaci: That's a lot of work actually. And then I'm a room mom. And this is how far I go to be fair, right? So Soren, the baby, when he went into kindergarten, I was a room mom for him. When Zealand was in kindergarten, I was room mom for him. And now I flipflop. One year I'm a room mom for Soren, next year for Zealand. So that they feel, you know.

Andrew: They're like, "You got mom this year."

Jaci: Yeah, exactly.

Liz Miles, Student Support Services Teacher, Williamson County Schools

Andrew: All right, so Liz, what is your specific role? You were telling me the title. It's kind of long, so I couldn't remember.

Liz: So I'm a student support services teacher in, yes.

Andrew: In Williamson County here in Franklin, Tennessee.

Liz: In Williamson County, mm-hmm.

Andrew: What does that encompass?

Liz: So for me, I actually work with students who have higher needs, who they have moderate to severe disabilities. But I have a wide variety of students.

Andrew: Sure, I can imagine, yeah.

Liz: I have students who are more on the severe side who may need help toileting, feeding, that sort of thing, and then I have students who need more help with the academic part.

Andrew: Sure, more in their learning.

Liz: And so my day is very diverse. I teach classes. I teach multiple ELA classes, multiple math classes, depending on the student's level. So we group them on their level, their skill level, not necessarily on their grade in math classes.

Andrew: So maybe their ability as far as learning goes and where they're at there. Now what first compelled you to get into… I mean, the field of education is wide. But to get into the segment of it that specifically is helping to educate and support children with learning disabilities or challenges, that's an usual... That's a unique field.

Liz: My mom was a moderate to severe disabilities teacher, and she retired from that. And so I grew up in this world, like this is very familiar to me. When I got off of school when I was younger, I went to my mom's school, and I was in her class helping with her students. So that's what I grew up with. When I was younger, I thought my mom was crazy. I was like, I don't know how she does this every day.

Andrew: You thought she had moderate disabilities?

Liz: Yeah. I was like, this is a lot. And then as I got older, I always knew I wanted to be a teacher. I knew that was where I was needed the most. And I could make a bigger difference I think.

Andrew: Sure, it kind of makes sense ‘cause the interesting thing to me about what you're talking about when you were growing up is that after school you would go to meet your mom at her school to get your ride home of course with your mother. So you grew up around these students and these kids really as friends, less as kind of this other group, you know, that you don’t really interact with.

Liz: They were more as peers. And my mom was very involved with her students and her families. So they came to our house after school, on weekends she had parties. One of her students, one of her first students, was like a brother to me. He was over all the time. We were doing things with his family and stuff like that.

Andrew: It's a very unique perspective. Let's talk about another student that you've been involved with for a while, Zealand. Of course, Mark and I have been talking with Jaci and Nic, with the Gonzales family, and of course their kids, Zealand and Soren, about their journey with Zealand and his autism. And I tell you, Jaci, and Nic, and I have intersected over the years just through our work life, but I've had the opportunity to be in their household and to be around them with their kids and be around Zealand. They have this... What has always impressed me is that their home life seems to be fairly, "normal" or very balanced and supported, even with like autism especially in a child in that family dynamic can be a very strained thing, can be a very challenging thing. And they seem to have a very supportive home. What have you seen in working with them and their family and Zealand that is like, you know, that is a wonderful way, or this is how to support children with some learning challenges. It seems almost flawless to me the way that their family interacts together, all together.

Liz: Yeah, I first met Jaci and Zealand in a bridging meeting. So that is when his elementary team was meeting us, the middle school team. And so we had this meeting at my school, and there's a lot of people there. We go in, and Jaci and Nic, they're hilarious. They have big personalities and they're so fun, and we left that meeting, our team, and we were like, "That was the most fun IEP meeting we've ever been in.” We've never laughed so much in a IEP meeting, and just because they do have a great sense of humor, but they also… They're very realistic and honest, and it's obvious that they really want to work with the whole team. And that's so important with any children. It takes a village, right? But with this particular group, we have to be tighter with our village. We have to be more consistent.

Andrew: More in touch.

Liz: Yeah, so it's important for us to work together to be consistent at home and at school and that sort of thing.

Andrew: Do you think that's part of their success in their family is that they're consistent with… You guys are consistent with them. They are consistent with what they're learning.

Liz: Yes, I think that, Jaci and Nic, they're very great at communicating with me as a teacher with his other service providers and working together. If they find something that they have a question about, they have no problem asking why or what can we do. And they've been so great about even, what can we do to support Zealand, but what can we do to support you, which is really--

Andrew: And rare probably.

Liz: Yeah, it's rare. To have a parent-teacher meeting and them being like, “Okay, this is our questions about Zealand. How can we all get to this place with him and help him through this?” But also looking at me and being like,"Okay, now can we help you?" which is different.

Andrew: Yeah, 'cause you were saying you have to sometimes convince parents that you all are on the same team. And that can be the first challenge is not the student but the family.

Liz: Especially new parents. Especially new parents too.

Andrew: Is that 'cause there’s so much going on inside? They want so much to maybe even solve this or to get it to the other side of what they're experiencing now. They're probably interacting out of a lot of stress.

Liz: Yeah, and I think the jump from elementary to middle is huge. These kids in elementary school, they may have been there for six years, had the same teacher for six years in a lot of cases, and now you're coming and it’s a whole different ball game, a whole different teacher, a whole different school, new peers. And so I think sometimes you have to work on building that trust back up and letting them know that we're all here for the same reasons. We love your kids so much. That's why we're here. So we want the same things for them. But I haven't had to convince the Gonzales family in that way. They seem like they knew that. And they could tell, yeah.

Andrew: Well, part of that, I think, comes into what we were talking about with them is they have a pretty deep acceptance. I'm sure a lot of parents and family members struggle with accepting that this is a true obstacle. This is a true challenge. You have to do some things different, and you have to go an extra mile. So how do you talk to communities? Zoom out a little bit from just the Gonzales family and Zealand. How do you encourage anybody, me, other parents, other educators, neighbors, friends, to be supportive and interactive with those we don't always understand what's happening?

Liz: Right. I think, first off, it's important to look at a student's strengths, not their challenges. And I think sometimes we get caught up in that. We get caught up in the label or what they don't do well when what we really need to be paying attention to is what they do well.

Andrew: Sure, where they succeed, yeah, naturally.

Liz: Yes, where they succeed. And how can we expand upon these strengths at home, in the school, and then eventually in the workplace. 'Cause that's our goal, right? And everybody's goals are different, but for a lot of kids, like Zealand, he's gonna have a job, like how are we gonna get there? So a lot of times, we have to think early on. We're in middle school, kids aren't getting jobs right now, or most kids, but we have to think about what's the end goal here, and then how are we gonna make a bridge to get to that goal.

Andrew: While capitalizing, or not capitalizing, but while recognizing and encouraging the strengths to take the lead, right? Don't you think we all kind of have a little developmental delay or something?

Liz: Yeah, I mean everybody is different, right?

Andrew: It's based on, like I was thinking earlier today, I was snippy and I can get real short and real demanding if I just am stressed or don't understand the situation and, therefore, don't have a lot of control, maybe even just context about it. Well, in some ways that’s mismanaging my stress and the way I see the world around me, right? I could do better. I could step back. So it feels like, in some ways, it helps me to go, okay, Zealand doesn't just have autism and I'm normal.

Liz: No, no, yeah. We all have our things, yeah.

Andrew: I have to manage myself too. And I need support too.That kind of thing.

Liz: Yeah, we all have our strengths and our challenges. I don't know, just another tip I would say is to be flexible with how we measure success because I think that success looks different for everybody, no matter what, no matter if they have a disability or they don’t. And I think, as a society, sometimes we look at success as like, oh, being a lawyer or a doctor or getting a master's degree. What have you. When it could be also having a part-time job at a bakery. Or one of my students who learned how to feed herself after three years and wasn't using a feeding tube. That was amazing, and to celebrate those successes too. Whether they're your successes, or they might look different than the way you picture success.

Andrew: I think everything you’re talking about kind of goes back into community. That's what I keep hearing out of Jaci and Nic's story and their family's is that we all have a part in each other's lives. And helping to recognize that connectivity rather than any division or segmentation. And you have a huge role in that.

Liz: Yeah, I think, coming back to community and how can we get the community involved, especially parents who don't have children with a disability. So like myself, my children, they do not have a disability. But I want them to know this world and know people who are different than them, interact with people who are different than them, and that could be someone who has a disability, someone who comes from a different socioeconomic status or culture. What have you.

Andrew: Different country.

Liz: Yes, but to provide those opportunities to your children.

Andrew: Well, thank you for what you do in the community and the lives of children.

Liz: Well, thank you for having me. It's been great talking to you.

ChildFund Sponsorship Message

Mark: I've sponsored kids for as long as I can remember, some of them already grown, but I keep doing it 'cause I love doing it. Plus, I'm single. What have I got to do? I sponsor five. And I love hearing from them, and I guess they love hearing from me. So if you're single, why don't you sponsor a kid? Go to childfund.org/dinnerconversations and start your sponsorship today You'll be glad you did. To learn more about Dinner Conversations, visit dinner-conversations.com.

Mark: Oh yes. Well, you know, you get that after every episode. And what about this mug with our faces on it?

Andrew: What says good morning better?

Mark: It's like we're on both sides, so lefty or righty, you get to see us every morning.

Andrew: You know, I think it's time we get back to those guests.

Mark: Yeah, probably.

Andrew: Thinking about Zealand and your experiences and learning with him, has that opened you up to, if you think about it, we are all developmentally delayed. There are corners and spaces in us that are not maturing or where we have… Some of that you can even think from a spiritual perspective. We're just stunted in challenges and conflicted in ways that we didn't have any choice over. Has it opened your heart to just people in different places of life in general?

Jaci: I think that Zealand and the experience of being his mom, I believe that he's taught me more about life and love and humanity than I'll teach him in my lifetime. And I say that because so many times we judge a book by its cover. Well, with autism, there is no cover. You can't tell. You can't see it. It just is. So it really changes the way that you accept people around you and look at the world. Sometimes we'll see something or somebody and we'll go, "Oh," 'cause I was trying to explain it to baby brother one time. Baby brother doesn't... We never say the word autism around the baby brother because his brother's his brother. That's just who God made him and that's who God gave him as his big brother. But I was just trying to tell Soren one time, because daddy was inside trying to help with math homework, which, by the way, in fourth grade already--

“He’s taught me more about life and love and humanity than I’ll teach him in my lifetime.”

— Jaci Velasquez

Nic: It's crazy.

Mark: Wait, this is Zealand or Soren?

Jaci: Zealand.

Mark: Zealand's math homework.

Nic: It's getting crazy.

Jaci: Is insane.

Mark: What do you do? I'd just have to say, "You're gonna fail, kid."

Nic: Sorry, bud.

Jaci: I actually went to his school and met with the tutor at the school, the math tutor for the kids, and had her tutor me because I can't even help my kid with his homework.

Andrew: Oh, I wouldn't be able to, no way.

Jaci: But daddy was inside helping the big one, and I was telling the baby, I go, "You know, buddy, there are some things that Zealand's not as good at that you're really good at. And then there's some things that he's really good at that you're not as good at, just like me and daddy. There are some things that daddy's really good at that I'm not.” And I feel like that's what life is like. Some things you're gifted at that I'm not. But it's also looking at each other and being able to harvest each other's gifts and pulling it out of each other I think is really what all this has taught me.

Mark: When you travel, do you talk about autism or do you ever bring that up?

Jaci: Oh yeah.

Mark: Have you met other--

Jaci: Yes.

Mark: Did it open the gates for you?

Jaci: Absolutely.

Mark: How many there are. Whenever you show your scars, man, the people with those same scars come running, don't they?

“Whenever you show your scars, man, the people with those same scars come running.”

— Mark Lowry

Jaci: Oh, I know. They totally do. It's so interesting to me how it makes not just people, but me, not feel so alone. It's that feeling when, aha, you too? Yeah, those moments are priceless, and--

Mark: What would you tell a new mother who's just found out her child is autistic?

Jaci: Actually, I just talked to a new mom the other day about that. I would tell them it's okay to feel what you're feeling right now. You're allowed to feel because it is scary, and that's okay. Don't freak out, but don't stay there. Because at one point, at some point, you're gonna have to get back up, and you are gonna have to start fighting because your kid can't fight for himself or herself. You are your child's biggest advocate. And until they can advocate for themselves, that's you. It's on you. And think of how cool it is that God trusted you enough, saw something strong in you that you couldn't see in yourself, because you're scared right now. And that's okay, but the strength is there. It is there 'cause God’s not gonna give you something you can't handle.

Andrew: Yeah, it seems like the perfect example or living proof of that in this way because there's nothing you did or Zealand did. I mean, we know that this is just a matter of humanity expressing itself in broken ways. Which happens in all of us. And so yeah, to think of it, I love that. I would want to be on the receiving end of that message about anything. If I came to you and said, "This is the challenge in my life.” Maybe God's trusting you with it. That's interesting.

Nic: And I think a lot of times, just this part of our life has become a, over the last 10 years has become part of our journey. And everybody has their journey, and I said it pretty early on. It's like now I realize that music in ministry, sometimes you can be so busy with it that you're not listening to the stories maybe like you need to because you’re getting to the next place. I gotta get to bed, gotta get up at 4 in the morning, catch a plane to the next place. Now I find myself talking to dads that they're just wondering, did you want your kids to play sports? Did you want him to do this? It's like, it doesn’t mean he can't do that. And I always just say, "Man, every day is unfolding a new part of his life, so I'm watching him. That's my job. I'm his dad.” I'm just there watching him unfold his life, and I'm there to help in any way that I can.

Mark: Wow.

Nic: And that has caused me to slow down.

Jaci: Yes.

Nic: And also make me realize that, you know, now you see a child with maybe some special needs, but maybe in a physical way, a child in a wheelchair or a child with a disability of some sort. It moves my heart in a different way. It doesn't mean that I'm gonna go seek that person out. It just moves my heart. It's almost like God is constantly reminding me it takes all kinds.

Andrew: It's understanding, yeah.

Nic: It takes all kinds.

Andrew: Does it ever make you think, hey, maybe we're not puppets on the string that God is just dancing around, but that he's actually watching our lives unfold? I don't know.

Nic: He's watching the way we pray for him. He's watching. Although, when I pray for him, I do pray for him differently. I say a special prayer every night for his mind and however God wants to open up his mind every day. So it's different. And then with my Soren, I pray a different way, so it's taught me as a… Not even as a musician. That defined us for so long. Come on now. Let's be honest here. You're defined as a musician for all of your life, so you think it's all about the right jeans or the right in-ear mix or the right--

Jaci: Right song.

Nic: Making sure, oh man, I hope the song--

Jaci: Photoshoot, record.

Nic: Or I hope people appreciate all this stuff. All of a sudden, none of that matters. So when I sing my songs now, I'm like, hey man, I'm glad I’m here, really appreciate it. My mind and my heart are going, man, what might you be going through today? Now that was never-- It used to be let's play loud or let's play fast. Let's get them moving.

Jaci: Let's get people on their feet.

Nic: Let's get them dancing. This is gonna be awesome. It's gonna be awesome for you out there. All of the sudden I'm going, hey, this is so awesome for me. Thank you for letting me, one, be able to lead you in worship today, get to sing songs. We have a family. We tell them about it. We know you have a family, thank you. We thank them now for bringing their families to come be with us. We used to be, "Well, yeah, you're grateful to be here. You paid $12 to be here. Of course you're grateful."

Mark: And how much work it was to be there.

Nic: That's exactly right.

Mark: Now you know.

Jaci: I know.

Nic: Now we know. And now, even with a son with special needs who has no interest in being anywhere almost, we know how much work even more that takes. For us to go to church, we have to make sure, okay, does he have a… Does he have a helper? He needs a helper because he's-- Not a helper for the physical, potty, all that stuff. I'm just talking about he--

Jaci: To keep him on task.

Nic: Keep him on task. And so all of these things. So it's become a big part of our lives, and we never... Of course, whoever thinks--

Andrew: You don't.

Jaci: That's not what I saw.

Mark: Has it become normal?

Jaci: Yes. Because I feel like I’ve never lived a moment without them.

Nic: That is true. I feel like I've had children for 50 years.

Mark: Really.

Nic: Yeah, at 40--

Mark: You can't remember your life without them? Vaguely.

Jaci: I have memories, but I don't even--

Andrew: But you don't associate a lot of feeling or--

Jaci: No, I don't feel like I--

Mark: So you'd rather be here than there?

Jaci: Oh, yes. I feel like I came to life when Nic and I got married and the birth of our kids.

Nic: You don't have to say that just for the show.

Mark: It must be true.

Nic: This is a truthful place.

Jaci: I feel like I really wasn't totally alive. I don't wanna sound like super dramatic, but it's just the truth. This is life. This is, I'm living. This is living.

Nic Gonzales & Jaci Velasquez singing “Good As Gold”

I'm a shade tree father
I'm a preacher's son
I like to go to bed late
But still watch the rising sun
Want my boys to grow up strong
Always be my babies
My wife, she keeps me sane
And she still drives me crazy
Ooo, ooo, ooo

It don't look like much on paper
These treasures we're building
They can't be bought or sold
Ooo, ooo, ooo

It's a simple life we're living
Like church hymns or a handshake
Or a man's word that he won't break
Man, that never gets old
It ain't something you can measure
But it's good as gold

I'm that mustang brother
Still my mama's son
I like to live it up and laugh too much
But I love to get the job done
I wanna grow old and know
That I did the best I can
Hope my boys see Jesus
When they look at that old man
Ooo ooo ooo

It don't look like much on paper
These treasures we're building
They can't be bought or sold
Ooo ooo ooo

It's a simple life we're living
Like church hymns or a handshake
Or a man's word that he won't break
Man, that never gets old
It ain't something you can measure
But it's good as gold

God, if you're building me a mansion
Don't go wasting it on me
Just as long as there's a backyard
And a table for my family
And I don't mind that crystal river
As long as fishing is allowed on Saturdays
Some people's dreams are bigger
But mine are richer in simple ways
Ooo ooo ooo

It don't look like much on paper
These treasures we're building
Can't be bought or sold
Ooo ooo ooo

It's a simple life we're living
Like church hymns or a handshake
Or a man's word that he won't break
Man, that never gets old
It ain't something you can measure
But it's good as gold

Ooo ooo ooo
Ooo ooo ooo
Ooo ooo ooo

Mark: Are you done having children?

Jaci: Well, I think--

Andrew: Say it here.

Mark: Would you like to have another one?

Jaci: I don't--

Andrew: Would you like to talk about it here?

Mark: That face says you don’t. That face right there says no.

Jaci: Okay, this is the thing. I would've been happy to have a bunch of kids, right? But this guy. Okay, so my husband has not really fully disclosed his tendencies and OCD kind of ways that he has.

Mark: About what?

Jaci: Well, just like I was saying about the baby, Soren is super organized.He has to have a collection, the full collection. Well, my husband is just like that. He has to have the perfect pairs. I'm talking everything.

Mark: As a pair.

Jaci: From tools--

Andrew: So it'd have to come in four?

Mark: So you get two of everything?

Andrew: You'd have to have two more?

Jaci: I'd have to have two more, and they'd have to be boys.

Mark: Oh really?

Nic: Don't say it like that.

Jaci: No, it's true. Or they'd have to be two girls.

Andrew: Right, right, ‘cause they gotta be pairs.

Jaci: Because everything has to be--

Nic: So the only way we could guarantee that is adoption.

Mark: Is adoption.

Jaci: Right.

Mark: And you really, I mean, this is serious?

Jaci: No, no. He's seriously crazy about that.

Nic: Actually, that's not the reason why.

Jaci: I truly believe that is the reason why.

Nic: We tell the truth in our family. That's not the only reason why.

Jaci: I believe that's the reason why.

Andrew: Not the only, I like that.

Nic: They like me back here. The only way to guarantee is to make sure, okay, those are girls, both girls. Okay, good. You guys come on over here.

Andrew: That's right. We'll love you.

Nic: We'll love on you guys. You got brothers now, Zealand and Soren.

Jaci: Yeah, he's funny about that stuff. Don't let him kid you. It's true. Just walk into his shop and his shed. Two. Identical.

Mark: Wait, wait, wait, wait. What is that called? I mean, that sounds like a problem.

Jaci: It's an obsessive compulsive--

Mark: OCD, right?

Jaci: But it's not OCD. It's just an OCD thing.

Nic: I have an explanation for it that I think would make a lot of sense to a musician.

Jaci: Oh please, go ahead.

Nic: Why do you carry a second guitar, if you play guitar?

Andrew: Extra.

Nic: Something breaks. Or why do you--

Mark: So you have the second kid in case someone, some break?

Nic: In case one runs away, I’ll have the other one there.

Mark: So you have air in a spare?

Jaci: But how are you gonna break a hammer?

Nic: Well, it happens, or you leave a hammer.

Andrew: I was expecting something deep.

Nic: No, no, no. It kinda goes into the whole idea, and I have always done this. I always buy a back up. And that's just because--

Jaci: So Soren's our backup?

Nic: No, that's not what I--

Mark: Wait till he hears this. This episode's gonna cause therapy for years.

Jaci: Major therapy.

Nic: We tell the truth in our house, say, "Soren--"

Jaci: You were just in case, just in case. I was gonna tell you. Do you all know we have chickens?

Nic: We have chickens.

Mark: Where?

Jaci: They're in the backyard. No, they live with us.

Andrew: Do you eat their offspring?

Nic: We eat their eggs.

Jaci: We eat their eggs, 21 chickens.

Mark: Have you wrung any chicken's necks yet?

Nic: No, we have, no.

Mark: You don't eat them?

Nic: They're hens.

Jaci: They all have names.

Andrew: Do your boys think about it like eating their offspring? Like I had a friend in school growing up who became a vegetarian, not because she didn’t like the taste of meat, because she associated it one day with like--

Nic: Okay, listen to this. Listen to this. Just so you know, you gotta get... We always school people so that they feel a little bit better.

Andrew: Oh, they don't come to life yet? It's not a embryo?

Nic: It's not.

Mark: What, listen to what? Tell me.

Nic: The egg is asexual. Egg comes from a hen that is not produced, fertilized--

Andrew: It's not produced by a rooster.

Jaci: No rooster.

Nic: No, so that's why a lot of people that are even like vegetarian or vegan, they still eat… It's an animal byproduct. It is not a living organism.

Andrew: Are you serious?

Nic: Yes.

Jaci: You have to have a rooster.

Andrew: So do they ever rub up on each other?

Jaci: No, they're hens.

Nic: I mean they fight.

Jaci: They're all girls. All hens, no roosters.

Andrew: Don't they get an egg in 'em --

Jaci: No, no, no.

Mark: Oh Lord. You ask the stupidest questions.

Andrew: I didn't know this. I thought there was interaction.

Nic: But we love to educate people on chickens.

Mark: But if you… We used to eat fertilized eggs.

Jaci: You can eat them.

Nic: Well, you can get them that way, yes.

Andrew: What does that mean then?

Jaci: Okay, that means that there was a rooster and an egg that was fertilized.

Nic: There was a rooster involved. You see that? A lot of people...

Andrew: I'm confused about the hen.

Nic: Mark, a lot of people are confused about this.

Jaci: Hens are just girls.

Andrew: I didn't know that a rooster didn't have to come into play.

Jaci: No, you don't need a rooster to have eggs.

Mark: You need a rooster to have the chicken.

Jaci: To fertilize the egg.

Andrew: So the eggs we eat--

Mark: It's called sperm! Have you ever heard of it?

Producer: You know people work that way too?

Nic: This has turned into a completely different situation here.

Andrew: I guess if you think about having eggs.

Jaci: Women always have eggs.

Andrew: But you're not laying them.

Jaci: Well.

Nic: But a lot of people ask the same questions.

Andrew: Nic, I did not know.

Nic: I have a speech ready for it because I let people know this because--

Andrew: So I'm not eating a chicken. I'm eating just a byproduct of a hen.

Nic: It's a byproduct of the hen.

Jaci: It's the egg.

Andrew: Now if we're eating a fertilized egg, I'm eating a chicken. Unincubated.

Jaci: Unincubated, yeah. It hasn't been incubated.

Mark: I can't believe you don't eat chicken, eat the chickens.

Jaci: No, we don't eat our chickens. We eat chicken, but we don't eat our chickens.

Mark: They're your pets, aren't they?

Nic: We had chicken today, right? It was delicious by the way.

Andrew: It coulda been one of yours, I don't know.

Mark: Do the boys love it? Do they go out and get the eggs?

Jaci: Yes, they do. Every morning. It's good for teaching responsibility.

Andrew: Did you know all that?

Producer: I was aware.

Andrew: Yeah, so I don’t know if y'all have--

Mark: Everybody knew that.

Andrew: It's amazing the things you can learn in your thirties.

Nic: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So anyway, that's our--

Mark: This has been great. Thank you all for sharing your story.

Nic: It's our pleasure. We didn't realize, obviously, when we had our Zealand, we didn't realize that would become such a big part of our story. Most of the time when people sit down with us, we talk about music and that's great. We love music. We love the Lord. We love what it's given us. But now I think that with our guys, the way that, the situation that we're always in with them, one, we're trying to disciple them and make sure that they're getting it. We're trying to raise good humans that are loving Jesus.

Jaci: They love Jesus.

Nic: And now I'm seeking God in a different way. It was for me, it was for me, 'cause man we were... Being so busy with music only, you get such a small sliver of the story about God. You learn the right scriptures so you can say them on stage.

Jaci: How to introduce a song.

Nic: Instead of sitting there and just going, man, this comes from a place of unknown for me. And so I wrote this song or I wrote that or I talked about... I'm telling you this 'cause maybe somebody here needs to… And at the end of the day going, how much more do we need to share Jesus with people? Because it's like, we are so, we are so concerned with our guys and we wanna make sure that… I don't care about anything. I just want them to go to heaven. I want them to be with me. I want them to go out and win other people and their families go to heaven. Then all of a sudden it just becomes… Everybody's like, there's a lot of gray, and I was like, no, there's not. It's really simple. We need Jesus. We need God. The only way to get there is through Jesus. This is really simple. That's what we're telling our guys, and all of the sudden, it's taught me how to believe in God in a different way. This amazing God that allowed me to do music, all that stuff, that's awesome. But it was almost like it was one way. It was him giving to me, and I was younger. We were both younger. It felt like it was one way.

Jaci: Totally.

Nic: Now I'm sitting here, God, I appreciate the music. I get all that, but--

Jaci: Thank you.

Nic: I need you. I need you for so many more reasons. I don't have the words to say. I don't have any wisdom. All I've got is what you're gonna give me. Your word, your books, the things that are, all these-- I love reading a book and hearing a dad’s heart through that book and just going, oh, that is so right. That is so good. That is so good. And so, and then realizing how unimportant all of our things are. And our main message that we've been kind of ignoring because it didn't fit in our lifestyle at that point. Didn't fit in my lifestyle to sit around and go, man, you really need Jesus.

Jaci: Well, it wasn't like the cool thing, the cool way to do it. It was kinda like, you know.

Nic: You know when an older person gets to a point where they stop worrying about what they're wearing because they're going, I've got pants and a shirt. I'm fine. I feel like that’s exactly where God has us. He's given us our sons, and he's saying, I've got my... We've got a home and all this stuff, and I know a lot of people that maybe they don’t. But either way, the most important thing is they need God. They need Jesus.

Jaci: We need Jesus in every situation.

Nic: We need Jesus. Everyone does. And so now we're sitting here trying to raise good humans. Everybody's like, "Oh man, are they gonna be singers?” I was like, "Oh, I don't know. I don't care."

Mark: Yeah, really.

Nic: Here's what I care about. They're gonna grow up. The other... Just our son.

Jaci: Oh.

Nic: We'll stop. I know you all have other things you're doing.

Mark: What?

Nic: So we have a swing, one of those dream catcher swings. Well, daddy did a great job of putting it kind of near a tree.

Jaci: But it's because that was the only tree that--

Nic: It's the only tree that had a cantilever arm that would go far enough to be able to swing it. All the rest of our trees seem to go this way. So anyway, I put it there, and I just tell them every time, just watch the tree, just be careful. Apparently, he was flying. To make a very long and dramatic story short, apparently he was flying, his brother was pushing him, and he had a fight with the tree. The tree won.

Jaci: Soren, the baby.

Nic: Yes, so he comes in--

Jaci: He was crying, "Mom!"

Nic: But here's the best part of it. All situations at some point will lead back to this. And as he's crying and all these things are happening, mama has to put a bandage and she's putting Neosporin. He's crying. He's crying to be... He's dramatic now, but I mean, the scratches are kinda small, but whatever. He'll watch this later on and go, "Oh, I was kinda dramatic.” But then, when she’s about to tear off his, and I say tear 'cause that’s the way he made it seem. He's like, "Oh, Jesus, protect me. Protect me, oh Jesus! Oh God, Jesus. Oh Jesus, heal me. Oh God, Jesus!” I'm going, yes.

Jaci: Jesus, protect me.

Mark: We'd like to thank Jaci Velasquez and Nic Gonzales.

Andrew: Your Spanish is beautiful.

Mark: It's horrible, isn't it?

Andrew: You can check out their product, CDs, music, books, whatever, Jaci's new book, in our Amazon affiliate link in our episode description below.

Mark: And if you feel the need to binge watch Dinner Conversations, you can do that right now on Amazon Prime. Dinner Conversations is brought to you by ChildFund, a community development organization that has been envisioning a world where every child is free to live at their fullest potential no matter where they're from or what challenges they face since 1938.

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Mark: It really does take so little to make a difference.

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Mark: A child is waiting.

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S03, E02: Perfectly Imperfect featuring Wynonna Judd

S03, E03: Surviving Miscarriage featuring Jason Crabb and Sonya Isaacs

4/27/20 4/27/20

Suicide: Hiding in Plain Sight featuring Mark Means and Wes Hampton

Licensed therapist Mark Means facilitates a sensitive discussion around the whys and whats of our culture’s suicide crisis and how community can help. His singing son-in-law Wes Hampton of the Gaither Vocal Band sensitively highlights the conversation with music.

Licensed therapist Mark Means facilitates a sensitive discussion around the whys and whats of our culture’s suicide crisis and how community can help. His singing son-in-law Wes Hampton of the Gaither Vocal Band sensitively highlights the conversation with music. Don't miss a single episode of Dinner Conversations — subscribe below!

Transcript

Mark: Dinner Conversations is bought to you by ChildFund, a community development organization that has been envisioning a world where every child is free to live with their fullest potential no matter where they're from or what challenges they face since 1938.

Andrew: Partner with us and our good friends at ChildFund to change the world and the life of a child by considering sponsoring a child today.

Mark: It really does take so little to make a difference.

Andrew: Visit childfund.org/dinnerconversations.

Mark: A child is waiting.

Mark: I was reading an article on Facebook by Mark Means, and he was saying lines like "faith grenades” and talking about suicide, and I thought what a perfect person to come on Dinner Conversations. He's a therapist. He just happens to be Wes Hampton's father-in-law, so we could maybe make Wes come too and sing, which he did, and I thought it was a great episode.

Andrew: Yeah, it's a hard conversation to have for a lot of people. Even just the word "suicide" can be a trigger, and so we are grateful to have the safe space. Mark is such a... Mark Means. What a safe person. Wes, what a fantastic person. So we can't think of two better people, and Wes gives us music.

Mark: Yeah.

Andrew: And music is such a helpful part of having these deep conversations. So what a fantastic two people to have around the table and on set today,

Mark: And there's one seat left at the table and it's yours, so let’s join the conversation.

Mark: I was recently doing a concert, and I tell this story about how, when mama died, the thing that I learned is you don't get to plan your entrance or your exit. And then I say, well, you can plan your exit, but that's called suicide. And then you get to heaven, your mansion's not ready, you gotta go live with your in-laws, you know, and everybody laughs. Because I'm trying to make the point that I don't believe suicide is fatal in eternity.

Andrew: The unpardonable sin or whatever.

Mark: Right, no. And everybody laughs, and then I moved on, all right. Now, I get a letter from a father of a young man who just committed suicide, and the way he heard it is that I was making fun of suicide, so I called him and said, "How can I do that better?” And what can I do because my intention was to let people know that your child is safe in the arms of Jesus. Don’t worry about that child. What have you learned in your years of this?

Andrew: Practicing as a therapist.

Mark: How would you do that better?

Mark Means: Talking about suicide?

Mark: Yeah. How do you talk about it?

Mark Means: You know the most important thing is talk about it. I mean, that's it. When we have friends that we're worried about, the thing you do is you ask them about their... People, they will talk about it. One of the first questions we ask people when they come in is are you thinking about suicide? Because--

Mark: No matter what the problem is?

Mark Means: No matter what the problem is because we hide it. There's so much shame, stigma. You don't ask for help. It has these things that you just said. People feel, you know, if I commit suicide, I'll be in hell forever. And for me as a therapist, I can't worry about that theology. I just tell them that God loves you, but we have to ask that. In the ethics of therapy, there's two things we can break confidentiality for. One is if you're gonna kill yourself, and two, if you're gonna kill somebody else.

Andrew: Is that the second question you ask them?

Mark Means: No, no. The second question I ask them is do you have a friend? A close friend? It’s shocking how many people say, "No, I don't have anybody."

Mark: So you say, "Are you thinking about suicide?” And no matter what their answer is, "Do you have a close friend?"

Mark Means: Yeah.

Andrew: Well, community, like I know, I remember getting out of a counseling session one time after a very difficult counseling session and a game-changer for me, and him saying, and my counselor saying, "I want you not to isolate when you leave here.” I didn't even feel the need to isolate in that room.

Mark Means: Absolutely.

Andrew: But I remember when I got out to my car, I thought, all I wanna do is drive. I want to get out of here. I don't want to talk to anybody. So I just started texting people who's around and found some church friends who were at a happy hour, but anyway, so um… I think like with suicide it's interesting culturally today, like the reason we’re even talking about it is because it is a present conversation, and I was reading an article that said it's up 28% over the past couple years and that some of that has to do with celebrities taking their own lives and the energy that the media gives that around it, that it actually impacts the suicide rate. And then they said that demographic is not a discriminator anymore, successful, unsuccessful in the eyes of society.

Mark: I just read today someone put a picture on Instagram of a beautiful family, a pastor, and his wife, and three or four children standing there. It looked like a Wes Hampton Christmas card. You know how those Christmas cards always look like the perfect family? And the father had just committed suicide.

Andrew: So why, why suicide?

Mark Means: I saw that same thing and then yesterday our good friend Sue Buchanan posted another kid here at a church just impact him, committed suicide. And then I got to looking further into that, and there's a guy who's a pastor who started a ministry. I think he had a son that killed himself. He started a ministry for suicide victims, and he killed himself.

Mark: It's contagious. There is a contagion of that.

Mark Means: There is a contagion. That's right, that's right.

Mark: When someone commits suicide, sometimes in a school they have to be careful that other children aren't affected.

Mark Means: Um, you know, oh my gosh, this is so complex, but if you don't mind, I'm gonna dive...

Andrew: Yeah, just dive in.

Mark Means: They did a study of suicide notes left behind. Twenty of them were people who attempted suicide, their letters they left, and 20 suicide notes of people who completed suicide. And they wanted to compare them to say--

Andrew: What's the difference?

Mark Means: They had five variables to them. 69-year-old brain's gotta work on it.

Mark: I know what, oh, tell me.

Mark Means: Five variables to them. One was a sense of burden was a huge issue.

Andrew: There's just weight.

Mark: That they're burdening someone else.

Mark Means: We're burdening someone else. My depression, my financial problem, my sexual, my sex addiction, my addiction has cost my family.

Mark: They're afraid that if they leave, if they get out of the way, everybody will be better.

Mark Means: Absolutely. And that is a thought, and I have a friend that's contemplated suicide for several years. I have breakfast with him and I love him so much, but he, you know, you think about it and, uh, they get stuck thinking the world would be without me, but you wanna tell him, "But did you realize the damage it leaves behind?” But they're in so much pain they can’t see that.

Mark: They can't see it.

Mark Means: So then the relief. And you'll hear this: "I'm a burden. I'm a burden to you. I feel like I drain you when I'm around you."

Mark: How many people never think about suicide? I mean, how many people it never crosses their mind? I mean, I have thought about dying. I've said, "Lord, when you’re ready for me, I'm ready for you.” You know, that type of thing, but I would never, I've just never thought about hurting myself I don't think. But I do believe there is medicine for it. You can get help.

Mark Means: Yes, yes. Wow, a lot there. Um, suicidal, we call it suicidal ideation. In other words, we wanna ask people have you thought about it, and just having thoughts, it gives us an alarm, but it doesn't give us the five alarm.

Andrew: Okay.

Mark Means: Next thing is do you have a plan? In other words, have you bought a gun?

Andrew: Thought through it?

Mark Means: Yeah. Are you gonna go somewhere and drive off. And then, thirdly is do you have the means? When those all add up, you go, okay. And again, that's where it clicks for a therapist. If all those line up, we say, "Look, we have to intervene.” There's some thought right now that says don't worry so much about the history somebody has. The biggest thing is intervene on… There's a 15- to 20-minute window when someone's thinking about this that they cross into a place of, boy, I wanna do something.

Andrew: This is reality now where it's gonna happen.

Mark Means: This is reality. Our intervention of knowing what to do… Most people who think about suicide don't have the skills. You know the difference is maybe a Mark Lowry, and I'm not saying you haven't thought… I mean, who knows who hasn’t thought about suicide? I mean, you can't know.

Andrew: Or even started that path.

Mark Means: The only way you can know is have a relationship of connection. And of course that's one of the things we will get to is connection.

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Wes Hampton singing “I Will Go On”

I repent for moments I have spent
Recalling all the pain and all the failures of my past
And I repent for dwelling on the things
Beyond my power to change those chains that held me fast

I will go on, my past I leave behind me
I'd gladly take His mercy and His love
For He is joy and He is peace
He is strength and sweet relief
I know He is and I am His
I will go on
Go on
Ooo

Now I give up all the bitterness and hate
All the blaming it in fate
For all my discontents
The guilt and pain I empty from my cup
So that God can fill it up with His peace and sweet content

I will go on, my past I leave behind me
I gladly take His mercy and His love
For He is joy and He is peace
He is strength and sweet relief
I know He is and I am His
And I will go on
Go on
Go on

Mark Means: Now emotional pain is very different for different people. What's emotional pain for you? You know, I know some people who will look at you and say, "Well, you just need to grow up," you know? "You just need to get in the Word.” We Christians, we fundamental Christians, tend to say if you pray more, that'll take care of it, that's the thing, and read your Bible more. That will answer these problems.

Andrew: So you're saying those are triggers in and of themselves?

Mark Means: No, I'm just saying those are the answers. Those are sort of the faith grenades we throw at people that the simplicity of that. But what we know is when you ask layers of questions and people begin to reveal this deeper stuff that's going on, you connect to somebody and you get this wonderful permission to say, "Hey, are you suicidal? Are you thinking about that?” We have this sort of entree to. If you don't build a relationship with people, you don't have that.

Andrew: Take us into those trauma triggers though because you said that's very important when you're, as a therapist, but even maybe as just people who are going to be in relationship with people, that these trauma triggers. That what helps pave the pathway for someone contemplating or actually trying to achieve suicide has to do with mental, physical, emotional trauma.

Mark Means: I had a guy come to me. He was a Afghanistan war vet. He came to sit on the couch over there on this right end, and I said, "What brings you here?” And he said, "Well, my wife says I've become crazy.” He said, "All of the sudden in the middle of the night, I'm up screaming," and he says, "Sometimes I've hit her.” He said, "Honey, you gotta…" He said, "I go out in public and things happen, and I just break down and cry.” He said, "I have wet my pants before.” I said, "What happened?” He said, "Well, 14 months ago I was in a foxhole and an RPG came in," and he said, "It killed one of my buddies, and the other guy his arm and leg was torn off.” And he says, “Shrapnel. I've been in the hospital for 14 months. I’m just out recovering.” He's telling me the story. Next door a therapist buddy of mine is doing therapy with a kid, and they're rallying around over there and all of the sudden I hear this, “Bam!" The wall, you know, these kids are rowdy or whatever. I look and my guy is under the couch. I said, "What are you doing under the couch?” He said, "Oh man, when I hear a sound like that,” he said, "I come unglued.” He said, "Any kind of sound.” I said, "Well, that's ridiculous. "That happened 14 months ago. You need to grow up, man. Stand up here. Sit in the couch.” He said, "Mark, I can't help it when I hear these..."

Mark: You really said that?

Mark Means: No.

Mark: Oh, okay.

Andrew: Culturally, maybe that's what we're saying.

Mark Means: These are sort of a faith grenades I talked about, but there are things that we say to people. You know, "That's silly. Why would you think? That happened 14 months ago.” He said, "But I can't help it.” And so, you know, we now begin to see as he talks about it. He says, "You know Mark, things that happen in the present that look like or feel like the past, I react to them as if they're still happening.” So you talk about triggers. Now we call this in people, in war vets, we call this PTSD, post traumatic stress disorder. So when you ask about trauma and trauma triggers, it's different for everybody. You know, a little kid who's 5-years-old, he comes home every night and his mother’s an alcoholic, slaps him around. His dad comes home and he cusses at his kids. The kid feels neglect. And by the way, the number one child abuse, you know, sex abuse is awful. I'll tell you about how much sex abuse goes on. But neglect is one of the worst forms of child abuse. I'm just not here. I’m not important enough to care for, to dress. I go to school. My clothes are the same clothes every week. But that little child who is a 5-year-old and his mom and dad’s this way, an alcohol… He can't go to his father and say, "Dad, quit treating me this way.” You know, you guys, you're... Snap out of it.

Andrew: Yeah, he doesn't have that maturity emotionally yet.

Mark Means: And he can't go down the street where Johnny's parents are. Man, they're nurturing and they sit around a table and everybody's nice and they say grace. He can’t. His fight or flight, what does he do?

Andrew: Right, he has nowhere to go.

Mark Means: He freezes. And so he, as he grows up to be an adult, has these frozen emotions. And toxic families have three rules: Don't talk, don't feel, don't trust. That's the rules of a toxic family. And he learns these rules. Don't talk about things, don't feel. If you do feel, those feelings are incorrect. Don't trust because who can you trust? And so he learns these feelings, suppress. And as he gets into relationships later, sex addiction, alcohol. One out of every three women are sexually abused. 81% of those women will have an addiction, and 80% of them will marry an addict or an abuser. So when you ask about triggers, there's so much involved, and if you're a pastor--

Mark: So you have to take it case by case?

Mark Means: You have to.

Andrew: Here's where relationship is important. There's, you know, especially as children, you’re dealt the circumstances you're dealt with. Like you said, that child doesn't have an option to fight or flight, so they freeze, but that takes us into our responses in my mind. So for instance, what brought you to this table was a Facebook post that Mark Lowry had read of yours, Mark Means.

Mark: It was brilliant.

Andrew: About faith grenades, about how we respond to people who are in vulnerable situations or coming out of vulnerable places and are stuck, and some of that stuck-ness can lead to suicide, but you called them faith grenades. So tell me what a faith grenade is. What is it that we're placing and pulling a pin that can explode?

Mark Means: Well, this boy here has taught us years in his concerts, but it's these silly, legalistic phrases we throw at people. Just pray about it, and it will go away. In the mighty name of Jesus, things are gonna..." You know, it's all this everything is gonna be all right.

Andrew: Platitudes kind of?

Mark Means: Platitudes. It's phrases that have shame with them. That drip with guilt, that drip with "I hear you, but I'm not listening to you."

Mark: Or so arrogant as to think you'd have the answer.

Mark Means: So arrogant.

Mark: How would I... A mother loses her child, right? Just grabbed that out of the air. What do I have to say on that subject other than I'm here for you? How can I help you? Can I bring you some food? I mean… I lost a dog, that's it.

Mark Means: The worst thing we do to people is try to fix their problems. The best thing you do is you listen to people. You know, you just, you have to build those… Back to the 20 notes, one of the key issues in that was isolation, you know? Is that people feel so isolated, so disconnected. But the number one thing of the people who killed themselves, that they wrote the most about, was the sense of burden. That was the biggest thing.

Andrew: But would that be heightened by these faith grenades, by "just pray about it”? I mean, doesn't that just further isolate him?

Mark Means: Absolutely.

Mark: Like that pastor. How could he have…? I mean, he must've felt like he was… I mean, they're all hopeless. They've lost hope. How do we not lose hope?

Mark Means: Hopelessness is just one of the issues.

Mark: How do we keep from losing hope? And especially in this political environment? In this day and age that we're living in where, I mean, everything is upside down.

Mark Means: I know. We're in a culture… Our culture is killing us from every direction. From social media and we’ve become more and more isolated.

Andrew: So as we try to be connected, we're becoming more disconnected.

Mark Means: We're so disconnected. In fact, another one of the first questions… You know, I ask people do you have a friend because most people don’t have a good close friend that you can be naked with, and I'm almost saying literally. I mean, but you can strip down and have authenticity and transparency. You don't have it. Lloyd Ogilvie said most of us will only have one to two close friends in our entire life. That you can be that kind of close. People, in a world where we think we're connected, we're most disconnected. And people can't, you know, particularly in this world--

Mark: It's hard to be healthy if you're not connected.

Mark Means: Of religion and faith, we wear this persona, you know, we're hiding in plain sight. We're telling people, “Yeah, I'm okay, you know Jesus--"

“We wear this persona. We’re hiding in plain sight.”

— Mark Means

Mark: How many do you think you have? Like that?

Mark Means: Friends?

Mark: Those kinds of friends?

Mark Means: I have just two or three close friends I've had throughout my life, for this last 30 years.

Andrew: How have you fostered that? Because I don't think it’s... It's easy to say we need friends.

Mark Means: My best friend Wayne and I, we literally sound like two girls on the phone every morning. I mean, we're silly, we talk about sex, we talk about God and religion, and what we're pissed off at, and what we're angry at I should say, of things that we're angry about.

Mark: If Paul can say dung, we can say piss.

Mark Means: Well, there you go, there you go. But the gamut, and it's somebody that I can decompress with and talk about and know he'll be there, you know? And I've got girlfriends. Sue Buchanan is a wonderful girlfriend of mine that I can talk to. Wes's mom is great. But you need a guy friend that you can just be, you can talk and cry with, and they check on you. If Wayne, my good friend, if he doesn't pop up, we're hollering at each other and we're very forgiving. If we can't answer the phone, we go, "Aw no, I'll get him tomorrow."

Mark: I was just gonna say about friendship. Of course, I have deep friends. When you stay single, you better build a friendship family. And I never intended to get married, and I have built, I mean friends, Deena, Colleen, Bubba, Shelly, that are... I mean, when I broke my leg, I couldn't shoo them away. They were on me like white on rice. And you gotta have that. No one can be healthy, mentally, alone.

Andrew: But you gotta have that is different than how do you have it. I don't think people know how to have a lot of friends.

Mark Means: There's the thing. You know, we talk about suicides. There's a skillset that you and I would look at, well, how could they not feel life... I've got my wife and kids and this… But there's a skillset, and it comes from this trauma stuff a lot. Now there are other variables, family, history, financial crisis, birth order, you know, all those play, and for people who are healthy, they kinda go psht, push-ah you know, why do they just not get over it? And people, I've got a few good friends who have had a good life. They've never had a lot of trauma. They've never had those--

Mark: The holy rub.

Mark Means: Oh gosh. And felt abandoned by God, and I love it that people say, "Oh, you know, Jesus has been with me every minute, and it's been hallelujah experience.” I usually go, "Are you serious?” But there are some. But learning to be a friend and learning to ask for that, I think we have to sometimes intrude on people when they don't have a friend. You have to press in and say, “Look, I'm thinking you're needing--" I try to text people. I try to leave a voice mail. I intrude on some people because I say, "Look, I know you may be struggling."

Mark: But how many friends can you really have? How many real, seriously? I mean...

Andrew: Well, good friends, you can't have that many.

Mark: I don't know how you can… It takes… You gotta manage them.

Andrew: But you say like learning to ask, you know, like say do you need a friend right now or whatever. Like my dad, we were talking, is a marriage and family therapist. A compelling kind of desire to isolate is definitely my tendency, and so I have to seek community, and I have to do the work and the effort, that kind of thing. And he would say, "Don't be afraid to ask from those you already trust who have some level of foundation or friendship and relationship with them, say what you need.” Do you need to be with someone tonight? Do you just need a phone conversation? Do you… And, you know, sometimes you might need to be alone as well. But that's the other thing, like I don't think we want to intrude or impose or, you know, right. Like ask for what you need.

Mark Means: Yeah, but you know a lot of times you don’t know how to ask. Harville Hendrix talks about isolators, and there's three skills that really fit this, and this is one that I mention in my article, is that when you're with people, these three elements are important to listening. Number one is mirror what people say. When people talk about their sadness, we say, "Hey, I can tell that you're sad. You're really struggling.” Don't try--

Mark: But that's how you mirror?

Andrew: Like affirm what they're saying.

Mark Means: Absolutely. When somebody says, "Man, I feel like financially I just feel like I'm sinking.” You know, to mirror that is I hear that--

Mark: You wouldn't just say, "Well, I've never had a financial problem."

Mark Means: Never. No, those are grenades. You know what you need to do is see my financial--

Mark: I don't know what's wrong with you. No, I, yeah...

Mark Means: No, you need to put money in the savings or whatever. Do not try to fix people.

Andrew: Because that's the shaming aspect of it.

Mark: My mother loved that, and I tend to do that. Like, you know what you need to do? That comes out of me a lot.

Andrew: The church tends to do that even from the pulpit.

Mark: But I really mean it.

Mark Means:We have these simplistic answers, you know.

Mark: It's not like I’m trying to grenade them. I really think if you would do this, you would get out of that mess.

Andrew: But that's not necessarily what someone… What you're saying is that's not what someone needs in that moment. There will come a moment when you can say, "Here's the next step."

Mark Means: We Christians tend to simplify the complicated and complicate the simple.

“We Christians tend to simplify the complicated and complicate the simple.”

— Mark Means

Mark: Interesting.

Mark Means: And it happens over and over. If a person doesn’t feel like you hear them, they say, well, that's not what I mean.

Mark: But how does hearing help? I'd say give him money would help if they're struggling.

Andrew: But that may not be what they're asking for.

Mark Means: I would disagree. I think giving them money sometimes can be enabling and almost shaming a person, and what we do is just help them get the next junkie fix. Now I think there's a point… You know, there's an old saying that says, "Rescuing somebody one time is mercy. Rescuing them a second time is enabling.” And you gotta be careful. But mirroring… The second part of this process is validating. And validating is, "Hey, it makes sense you feel that way. I can see why that would be.” If I say to you, “I'm really discouraged today.” "Hey, I hear you're discouraged today, and I can see, Mark.” Now it's hard for people who when things are going good say, "I don't understand. Why would you feel that way? There's a million blessings," you know. "Look at all this. You've got this house.” You know, "you're sitting with these great people. How could you?” Well, you know, that won't work.

Mark: Those are the grenades.

Andrew: So affirming through the mirroring is actually setting up community for them in that moment because it's doing like what you said your friends did with you when you broke your leg. Just say I'm here or what you would say to a mother who's lost a child: I don't understand that, but I'm here. So it's saying I'm here. So how is at church? Take that to the church, and when I mean the church, I mean we as individuals of the church. We know every church is not toxic. We know every Christian is not toxic. But as a whole, I don't feel like we’ve fostered great community. Otherwise, people on the precipice of suicide would be darkening our doors to say, "I'm about to kill myself."

Mark Means: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Andrew: What can I do? Where’s help? Where's hope?

Mark Means: And your question is?

Andrew: The question is what can we do to foster more community within the context of our churches?

Mark Means: Well, you know, my answer is like a therapist, of course. What slays me is we put a gazillion dollars into production that goes on in church. We put gazillions of dollars in associate pastors and teaching pastors and all this. I don't understand why churches don't have licensed therapists on their staff.

Mark: Interesting.

Mark Means: That are there to help with groups of doing this very stuff. I hear small groups. I go to an incredible church. We have 5,000 small groups that go on every week, and it's amazing. I always worry though about the quality of those. What's going on...

Andrew: In the community, in those small groups?

Mark Means: Yeah, it's a skill to form community. You know, if you got your own stuff, you don't really know how, but I think, you know, I go back to this. When you mirror people and you validate them, "Hey, it makes sense you feel this way,” and empathize with them. "It must be difficult to feel that.” To go through it, man. And your tendency is you want to fix, fix, fix at each stage. The greatest gift you can do is don't try to fix it. We're gonna pray. We’re gonna be here with you. I wanna be here with you. This must be tough. Now look, I've heard your story. Let's get together, you and Phil and Bob and I, on Saturdays. Let's sit down and look at your problem, and let's see maybe there’s some solutions to this. Maybe we can figure out something. But if you try to throw in solutions up front, you've loaded into it, people gotta be heard. That's what therapy... The one good thing about therapy is that people often walk away feeling better. Well, why? It's because this has happened.

Andrew: Because they're heard.

Mark Means: Somebody mirrored me. Somebody validated me.

Mark: So you think if you had good friends, real true friends, you wouldn't need therapy.

Mark Means: This is what they do. This is what good friends do is they mirror and validate and they empathize.

Mark: And they will tell you you're crazy, I think.

Mark Means: And tell you, yeah, truthful.

Mark: That's the reason I've never had any yes-men around me because they'll tell you what you wanna hear rather than what you need to hear.

Mark Means: I know, I know.

Mark: And a good friend will do that and say, "Man, this isn't your best."

Andrew: And a good friend will withhold what you need to hear in the moment because they're sensitive enough until you're ready to hear.

Mark: Where they won’t embarrass you in front of people.

Andrew: Yeah, or shame you.

Mark: Well, don't commit suicide, and if you're thinking about it, call the number on the screen and also tell somebody. Tell them, tell them. Once you put a light on it, I believe it gets smaller.

Mark Means: That's right.

Mark: It may not go away, it may not fix it, but the minute you bring it out into the open, put a light on it, tell somebody, you'll find out you're not alone. Half the people at this table are on medication.

Andrew: Half?

Mark: This half. Listen, don't be ashamed because you have to take medicine. I take a little bit.

Mark Means: Medicine is extremely important.

Mark: It's very important.

Mark Means: But if you do call, the suicide hotline is amazing. They get 5,000 calls a day. 123 people kill themselves a day. It's...

Andrew: But the fact that they get 5,000 phone calls a day is the key that is you're not alone.

Mark Means: Absolutely, you're not alone. They help people.

Mark: Yeah, you're not alone.

Mark Means: Because when you’re in that desperate place, you need intervention, and they will help you immediately.

Andrew: And at some point in all of our lives, no matter how dramatic or nondramatic, we all need intervention. We all have, and at the heart of it, people who are in need, we're all people in great need of redemption. We all require the intervention of God through Jesus. I mean, that's the--

Mark: And He will never shame you. He will never shame you. Haven't you found that to be true about Him? He'll convict you, but He won't shame you.

Mark Means: My childhood Jesus was a shaming Jesus, but my adulthood, my adult, yeah...

Andrew: Is more the real one?

Mark: I love what Russ Taff said. His therapist said this to him. If your Jesus is a condemning Jesus, you need to fire Him. You've got the wrong one.

Mark Means: I love his therapist.

Mark: Oh, do you know his therapist?

Andrew: Oh, you do? How do you know that?

Mark: Who all needs therapy? I don't think I need it.

Andrew: And I love it.

Mark: Does everybody need to go to therapy?

Mark Means: No. I think your therapy is truth-telling, but it does it in a skilled way. And I think many people… I think your comedy, music, is therapy for people.

Mark: Therapy for me.

Mark Means: That something transformative happens. I tell Wes all the time, I say, "Man, when you go out and sing…" He sings a song "I'll Pray For You,” and for me it just... I mean, Gaither songs are all therapy to me.

Wes Hampton singing “I’ll Pray For You”

I've been there right where you are
Your heart is so broken and God is so far
And sleep won't come and the tears won't quit
Can you remember I won't forget

When you can think and you can't even pray
Please hear me when I say
You may not have the words but until you do
I'll pray for you

Until clouds clear and you start to see
Know that I'll be here down on my knees
Just hold on to one thing that's true
Know that all this time He's holding you

When you can't think or you can't even pray
Please hear me when I say
You may not have the words, until you do
Know that I'll pray for you

All those answers one day they're gonna come
But until they do know that I'll pray for you
Yes, I'll pray for you

ChildFund Sponsorship Message

Mark: You can help change the life of a child today by partnering with Andrew and me and supporting a boy or girl in Guatemala through ChildFund today.

Andrew: Your sponsorship will not only improve the future of one child's life, your child sponsorship will promote communities in Guatemala, the communities that Mark and I just visited. Where we saw parents who are learning to value and to protect and to advance the worth and rights of their teens and children. Who through your child sponsorship are literally changing the culture of each child's community from the inside out.

Mark: Perhaps, you already sponsor a child. Would you consider sponsoring another child in Guatemala? Maybe in honor of one of your children, a new grandchild, a special niece or nephew. It takes so little to make such a profound difference in the life of a child.

Andrew: Your sponsored child is a real kid with real dreams, just like the dreams of your children and grandchildren. We know because we met them. Kids that will want to be doctors and lawyers and teachers, even musicians, kinda like us. Your sponsorship gives these children their chance to achieve their very unique dreams.

Andrew: Yes, plus a special item made just for you by the communities in Guatemala.

Mark: And every sponsor and a guest is invited to a Dinner Conversations Friends & Family Weekend in Nashville.

Andrew: Hey, now. Which includes mealtimes with Mark and me, private little concerts and chit-chats with our friends, and a special Sunday morning service that will happen right before you head out of town.

Mark: And if you sponsor more than one child, you will have the opportunity to be a guest on an actual episode of Dinner Conversations during the Friends & Family Weekend in Nashville.

Andrew: It doesn't get better than that.

Mark: No.

Andrew: Does it, Mark? Does it? Stay tuned for exact details, and don't forget to visit childfund.org/dinnerconversations to sponsor your child today.

Mark: To learn more about Dinner Conversations, visit dinner-conversations.com.

Mark: Oh yes. Well, you know, you get that after every episode. And what about this mug with our faces on it?

Andrew: What says good morning better?

Mark: It's like we're on both sides, so lefty or a righty, you get to see us every morning.

Andrew: You know, I think it's time we get back to those guests.

Mark: Yeah, probably.

Mark: I think we're finally getting more and more comfortable with showing our scars, and when we show our scars is when everybody's like, oh my gosh, I got them too. You know?

Mark Means: But I think, as therapists, you may not be licensed, but when you're out there doing music and we're teaching people, demonstrating, modeling it, it helps people come out.

Andrew: That's contagious too. We talked about in the beginning how suicide's contagious or thoughts of suicide. Well, I think on the other hand, equally hope is contagious and telling your story and saying, "Hey, I deal with this too,” that's contagious.

Mark: It's scary the first time you do it, but then it gets easier.

Mark Means: And let me say something too, and this has a vast well in it. But people who are gay, people who, and I'm not trying to put them in the same category. Sex addicts, alcoholics, the people that we have... Fundamentalists are binary. It's all or nothing, black or white, yes or no. Never either or and some.

Mark: Until one of their children become--

Mark Means: You're in my tribe or not. I was raised, if you weren't in my tribe you're... You know, when you talk about that, I go, man, we went to the same church. You have a high suicide rate in Christian kids who are gay and families. I'm always amazed at some of these pastors. I mean, they rail against homosexuality, and I get a phone call. And I'm hated often because I'm a therapist and too accepting, but I get this call. They said, "My son's wanting to come out. What am I gonna--" And all of the sudden, they have to learn to love their son. And paradigm shift. And you know I'm not gonna get into the theology of that. You can wrestle it all day. I just, I feel sorry that there are communities of people who are not allowed to be in this family that we're in by stupidity. And I'm sure that's not a thing that people like to hear, but if we don't take care and love these people, we're gonna be judged by it.

Andrew: Wrestle with our theology all day long, but I'm not gonna wrestle with people. I'm not gonna throw them to the ground, you know?

“Wrestle with our theology all day long, but I’m not gonna wrestle with people.”

— Andrew Greer

Mark Means: You know, we used to divorce people, kill them, or now, you know...

Mark: We used to have slaves.

Mark Means: Five or six wives. Yes!

Mark: And the church condoned it.

Mark Means: I know, I know.

Andrew: We still do.

Mark: Huh? We do?

Andrew: I said we still do.

Mark: Don't touch me. Touch not thine anointed, do thy prophet no harm.

Andrew: What verse is that?

Mark: Are we done?

Andrew: Yeah, you know what else I think that's very helpful is the WEScipes. If you have a lisp, it helps you know you're not alone.

Mark: Wescipes.com, isn't it?

Mark Means: Yeah.

Andrew: Yes, this is a honey caramel glaze that your son-in-law made.

Mark: And you wait till you see his nude calendar.

Mark Means: My son-in-law makes all kinds.

Andrew: Should everyone taste this, there will be no need for hotlines in the future.

Mark Means: Put that on a hot biscuit and you’ll think you're in heaven.

Andrew: Put that on my hot little lips. It's out of this world.

Mark: Well, we'd like to thank Wes Hampton and his father-in-law Mark Means. What a brilliant man.

Andrew: Yeah, what a poignant and important episode. You can find some of the great songs that Wes sang on his product in our Amazon affiliate link in the episode description below.

Mark: And if you wanna binge watch past episodes and new ones of our program, Dinner Conversations, you can go to Amazon Prime right now and do that. Dinner Conversations is brought to you by ChildFund, a community development organization that has been envisioning a world where every child is free to live with their fullest potential no matter where they're from or what challenges they face since 1938.

Andrew: Partner with us and our good friends at ChildFund to change the world and the life of a child by considering sponsoring a child today.

Mark: It really does take so little to make a difference.

Andrew: Visit childfund.org/dinnerconversations.

Mark: A child is waiting.

Learn more here: childfund.org/dinnerconversations.

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Watch Our Other Episodes:

S03, E02: Perfectly Imperfect featuring Wynonna Judd

S03, E03: Surviving Miscarriage featuring Jason Crabb and Sonya Isaacs

S03, E05: A New Normal featuring Jaci Velasquez and Nic Gonzales

4/26/20 4/26/20

Personality by Number featuring Ian Morgan Cron and Lisa Whelchel

Enneagram authors and podcast host Ian Morgan Cron and television star Lisa Whelchel reveal how to discover your true self — and better relate to the world around you — through the Enneagram personality typology. Plus Your Enneagram Coach's Beth McCord chimes in!

Enneagram authors and podcast host Ian Morgan Cron and television star Lisa Whelchel reveal how to discover your true self — and better relate to the world around you — through the Enneagram personality typology. Plus Your Enneagram Coach's Beth McCord chimes in! Don’t miss a single episode of Dinner Conversations — subscribe below!

Transcript

Mark: Dinner Conversations is brought to you by ChildFund, a community development organization that has been envisioning a world where every child is free to live with their fullest potential no matter where they're from or what challenges they face since 1938.

Andrew: Partner with us and our good friends at ChildFund to change the world and the life of a child by considering sponsoring a child today.

Mark: It really does take so little to make a difference.

Andrew: Visit childfund.org/dinnerconversations.

Mark: A child is waiting.

Mark: On today's dinner conversation, it's really an interesting program. It's about a thing called the Enneagram. Come to find out, I'm a Seven.

Andrew: And a Two.

Mark: But what it is, it's a personality test of sorts that helps you figure out what the number you fall into as your priority number. And then you might have a wing. It's very complicated. But it's enlightening, it really is. And it's something the millennials know all about.

Andrew: It's definitely something that's new and exciting. Ian Morgan Cron one of our guests today is a fantastic author, author of Chasing Francis and the new book The Road Back to You, which is about the Enneagram, which is all about how we interact with ourselves and others and God. And also Lisa Whelchel, who was on the TV show The Facts of Life, was on Survivor, and is now a life coach for Contigo Life Coaching, which you can find more about at her website lisawhelchel.com. So it's a fascinating… I mean, Mark is really getting to know himself.

Mark: There's one seat left at the table, and it's yours. Let's join the conversation.

Andrew: Well, okay, so but more than numbers, is it really a simple… This has been my main question from the beginning. Very good or not good?

Mark: Delicious.

Lisa: That's really nice.

Andrew: I mean, there's nine numbers. Are there really nine types of people in the world? Can it really be boiled down to a number? I don't want to be identified as numbers is why I asked that.

Mark: I do.

Ian: That means you're probably a Four.

Andrew: But I’m a Two

Ian: But you're a Two.

Lisa: I thought he was a Four, too, as well. When he said Two, yeah, what's your number? Because in just the little bit of time I've spent with you. 'Cause he was saying he loves to go deep into the dark movies. Man, that sounds so Four-ish.

Mark: Oh my God, I'd rather not. I love them when they have great dialogue.

Ian: I gotta tell you a funny story. My son is a Seven, the enthusiast. I'm a Four, which is the romantic or the tragic romantic type. New Year's Eve we're in Connecticut in a town where we don't know anybody. We have no place to go. It's New Year's Eve. He's 18. And I said, "Let's go to the movies.” He's like, "Awesome." And he's so enthusiastic. Aidan is perpetually surprised by life. It's almost like, “Great, let's go to the movies."

Mark: I love that.

Ian: So I look up some stuff, and I take him to the movies. What do you think I took him to see on New Year's Eve?

Lisa: I don't know.

Ian: Manchester by the Sea

Andrew: Yes.

Lisa: What?

Ian: You could not take a Seven to a worse movie.

Lisa: What?

Ian: I mean, he looked at me, and he's says, "I need a drip bag of Prozac right now.” And he says, "If I don't get some balloons and streamers and party blowers in about 10 minutes, I am gonna die.” And that was only halfway through the film.

Mark: That's funny.

Ian: I loved it.

Lisa: Well, halfway through the film is still the longest film in history.

Ian: Did you not like Manchester by the Sea?

Lisa: No.

Mark: So you haven't seen--

Andrew: What number are you?

Ian: We haven't hit a movie together that we like--

Lisa: No, I'm a Three.

Mark: A Three. Tell me what a Three--

Andrew: But you're still in the feeling triad, right?

Lisa: It's the feeling triad with the irony being the feeling (screams).

Mark: Excuse me. I don't know anything about what you all are talking about. And most people watching this probably don’t. So explain a Three.

Lisa: Okay, a Three, one of the little titles is achiever or performer. Our motivation is to prove that we are worthy of love by the accomplishments that we have and that we do.

Mark: And you said to me… I hope we can talk about this.

Lisa: We can talk about anything.

Mark: Okay, it's something that relates to that. I said you're one of the few child… This is hyperbolic statement because I...

Lisa: And you probably never do that.

Mark: All the time.

Ian: Bring it.

Mark: I didn't know what hyperbole was until Bill Gaither pointed it out that I do it all the time. But I said most--

Lisa: I think it's funny that hyper is in that word even. It's all coming together.

Mark: But my question is, I said that God has kept you on a path. From my perspective, I think of Lisa Whelchel, speaker, woman of faith, some virtuous lovely, beautiful, kind person. I'd met you, but I didn't know you or ever have a conversation with you other than today. But you said...

Lisa: Well, you said you were one of the few child stars that made it out.

Andrew: And weren't destroyed by the fame.

Lisa: And I said, "I just kept my stuff secret."

Mark: And you said, "God is teaching you..."

Lisa: That God is teaching me that he's really not threatened by my sin, mistakes, mess ups, the things that I had avoided for so long, fearing that it would, in some way, say that I don't love him enough to obey him. And so that was a lot of decades of my life. And it's only been in the last decade where I've been able to rest into it's not about performance or behavior to gain his love. Which then, of course, translates to my own love for myself or anybody else's acceptance. But that's a real Three thing to...

Mark: That's what I was wondering.

Andrew: So that comes from that achievement. You're literally trying to achieve God's love.

Lisa: Exactly, because as Ian said too, the Three energy can show up anywhere. So wanting to achieve to be valued is gonna show up very obviously in writing a bunch of books or being on television or doing the things that I have done. But it also shows up in I'm gonna be the best Christian that ever was. And even recently, this last year, I've been going into a kind of an interior not doing journey. But I totally did it with Three energy, like I'm gonna not do better than anybody has ever not done before.

Mark: That is funny.

Lisa: So I went on a 30-day silent retreat. I walked the Camino. I'm going on a 10-day meditation course. I mean, it's just like, okay, fine. I'm gonna sit still and do nothing the best.

Andrew: Are you exhausted?

Ian: You can be the best Christian ever. Hold my beer.

Andrew: That's exactly right.

Ian: So let's start with the heart triad.

Mark: Okay.

Ian: Two, Three, and Four. Twos are called the helpers, sometimes the givers.

Lisa: And you say you identify as a Two.

Andrew: I do because I think the main association is the lack of boundaries, the codependent feel of that. Putting other people's needs in front of others, et cetera.

Ian: So every type has an unconscious or underlying motivation that drives or fuels the way that they predictably and habitually act, think, and feel. And it also kind of reveals the lens through which they see the world, okay? Because everybody sees the world through a different lens. And that's one of the gifts of the Enneagram--

Mark: I believe that.

Ian: Is learning that, wait a minute. We are all looking at the same screen, but it's a different movie to each of us. So the Two's unconscious motivation is they see a world in which you have to give to get, right? So their unconscious motivation is to meet the needs of others, while at the same time denying or acknowledging that they themselves have needs. How are we doing? Are we doing all right?

Mark: Pitiful.

Andrew: It's true, yeah.

Ian: Threes, performers or achievers. They see a world in which people only value others for what they do, not for who they are inside.

Mark: Well see, I think me knowing that about him, you said, knowing the numbers. I think it is good to know everyone's number that you meet.

Ian: Totally

Mark: If you can figure it out because then you know how I need to watch to make sure he's not abused by me or others because he'll do anything you asked him to do and that's the truth.

Ian: Right, so what would be better though, is if he figured it out for himself and told you what it was because only--

Andrew: That would be the healthiest.

Ian: That would be the best way because only he can… We call it self-verifying, right? It's important for him to be able to own it and tell you what's the unconscious motivation that you can't see. All you can see is traits and characteristics that might be a Two or may not. 'Cause here's the deal, you and I contain, or all of us, all nine numbers. It's just that one of them is dominant.

ChildFund Sponsorship Message

Mark: Dinner Conversations is brought to you by ChildFund, a community development organization that has been envisioning a world where every child is free to live their fullest potential no matter where they're from or what challenges they face, and they've been doing this since 1938. ChildFund's mission is to help bring positive and lasting change to communities around the world by removing the barriers that keep children from realizing and reaching their dreams.

Andrew: We believe every one of us have been created unique with value on purpose and in love by God. We have been created in the image of God. The children we met in Guatemala are image bearers of our Creator. Think about that. And I believe to love God best, we must learn to love our neighbors even better. Our neighbors like these children in Guatemala. ChildFund is giving us that unique opportunity, all of us, you guys and us, to serve God by loving these children through sponsoring a child today.

Andrew: And while you're there, check out some of our friendly merch. We've got show mugs and Season One and Two DVDs. And we got these little note cards, so Mark can write me a note that says you're the best cohost ever.

Mark: Yes. Well, you know, you get that after every episode. And what about this mug with our faces on it?

Andrew: What says good morning better?

Mark: It's like we're on both sides of them, so lefty or righty, you get to see us every morning.

Andrew: I think it's time we get back to those guests.

Mark: Probably.

Beth McCord, Your Enneagram Coach

Mark: Beth McCord, thank you so much for allowing us in your home today. And I wanna know, my opening question is what is Enneagram?

Beth: That's a great question. Well, Enneagram, if people see the symbol, it looks like a nine pointed star with a circle around it, and it is representative of nine personality types. And each of those types lets us know why we do what we do. And that's the biggest thing is why do you think, feel, and behave in particular ways. For me and what I want to do with the Enneagram, I wanna bring it from a biblical Christ-centered perspective. Because if I can help you to understand why you fall into that common pitfall or why is it that this over here is the best path for you and you feel liberated, that realization really helps you to choose where you're at in life. But we can't just manufacture it, right? I mean, if we could, we would. Oh, this is the best path for me. I'm just gonna do it. That just doesn't happen. So for us to realize and surrender and depend on the Lord is really what brings a transformation. But I can't surrender and depend on the Lord if I don't know what's causing me to do certain things.

“For us to realize and surrender and depend on the Lord is really what brings a transformation.”

— Beth McCord

Mark: Briefly, what are the nine?

Beth: So the Type One is the moral perfectionist.

Mark: Mama.

Beth: Type Two is the supportive advisor. Type Three is the successful achiever. Type Four is the romantic individualist. Type Five is the investigative thinker. Six is the loyal guardian. Seven is the entertaining optimist. I don't know if you know anyone.

Mark: That was me. I took the test, and that was me.

Beth: And then the Type Eight is the protective challenger. And the Type Nine is the peaceful mediator, which is me.

Mark: So you say they all have positives and they all have negatives or pitfalls, you say?

Beth: Exactly.

Mark: What's a pitfall for Seven?

Beth: Well, Sevens struggle with gluttony.

Mark: Bing. Bam. Oh my gosh, gluttony.

Beth: Yes, and it doesn't mean just food.

Mark: Did you know that before I walked in here, or did you just look at me and said, they must struggle with gluttony?

Beth: No, that's just how it is. So that's kind of a core weakness of the Seven, and they all have core weaknesses.

Mark: In other words, if a bite is good, the whole pie is better.

Beth: Absolutely.

Mark: It's true.

Beth: But it's not just with food.

Mark: No, it's not.

Beth: The Sevens feel almost that there's this kind of empty bucket inside that they constantly need to keep filling.

Mark: Full of holes.

Beth: But it has holes.

Mark: Yes.

Beth: And it's like, oh my gosh, so the more they're anxious--

Mark: The more you pour in.

Beth: The more they have to pour with experiences and stimulation, excitement, whatever it is. And so they keep pouring and pouring, but the holes just keep it running. But if the Seven can learn to savor and to be great to be grateful and to see the blessings they have, the more the holes plug up and the more they feel filled up and they have satisfaction and they're more content. True?

Mark: Oh my gosh, yes.

Beth: So each type has something that's kind of hindering or blocking them from fully understanding the gospel. Not in a sense that… I mean, all the gospel applies to us, but there's something that’s just kind of blocking us. Can I really believe it's true for me? And so my goal is to help everyone understand, well, what's blocking it for you. And how can we open that up so you can really feel the immense passion that Christ has for you. And that brings transformation.

Mark: So everybody should take this test if they wanna know. And there are others. What's the difference between this and the Myers-Briggs?

Beth: So the Myers-Briggs is great. The Myers-Briggs is great, the StrengthsFinders, DiSC, all of those are great. They typically are kinda showing you your outward behavior or your preferences. But this is just telling it like it is. This is why you do what you do. So we have motivations behind our personalities that are driving our thinking, feeling, and behaviors. And those come from your core fears and your core desires. And also the core weakness, which we just talked about with gluttony. So the core fears are the things that we’re constantly running away from even if we're not cognizant of it. We're like, oh, that cannot happened.

Mark: Is just for Seven or everybody?

Beth: Everybody. And then there's the desires we want, and we're constantly trying to get those. So for the Seven, their core fear is being trapped in emotional pain, to be limited, bored, missing out on something, especially something fun, so those kinds of things.

Mark: Bam.

Beth: And so, but the core desire for the Seven they're trying to always get is to be fully satisfied and content. And so then their core weakness comes in there with gluttony. So when we were kids, we had something that we really hoped we could hear or feel or sense. And so for the Seven is you will be taken care of. True?

Mark: That is unreal because I’ve always said my biggest fear is that I would ever be a burden to anybody, and I couldn't afford to pay someone to wipe my bottom if I couldn't reach it myself. In a old nursing home-- I thought, I don't wanna beg someone to help me. I wanna be able to say, “Okay, I can pay you to do this.” That fear of being a burden to somebody. Now, is that part of the Seven?

Beth: Yeah, and Sevens feel like, well, I have these needs, especially the empty bucket, right? And they're kind of looking around even as kids like, no one's really filling it up. Now maybe I had wonderful parents, maybe I didn’t, whatever the situation is. But it's like, no one’s really filling it up. I've got to do this on my own. So they're very independent people, and they're seeking ways to fill it up for themselves. But if they could feel that someone's really gonna take care of that, that would be amazing. And that's what the gospel says.

Mark: Well, that's what Jesus does.

Beth: Exactly.

Mark: Yeah, thank God for him. I'd be a mess.

Beth: So that's where my coaching comes in. Because we each have this situation going on that we think, well, the gospel is great, but I still gotta do this on my own. And the gospel says no. So for you, filling that empty bucket, there are ways for us to realize and open up our hearts and go, I am taken care of, right? I mean, Christ fully takes care of you.

Mark: So far so good.

Beth: But Sevens out there, they may not fully be experiencing that yet, so we want them to understand what's blocking them and help them to see past that and how the gospel really opens them up and fills them up.

Ian: So Seven's the enthusiast, sometimes called the epicure. They love the finer things in life, the Sevens. They really love--

Mark: Like a manicure?

Ian: Yes, something like that.

Mark: But they like finer things in life.

Ian: They do. And they love to sample it all. If you want to make a Seven swoon, take him to a buffet restaurant.

Mark: Isn't that the truth. Give me a cafeteria.

Ian: Oh my gosh, right?

Mark: I love options.

Ian: Options, that's so Seven, right?

Lisa: Mm-hmm.

Ian: I mean, the need of a Seven is to really--

Mark: Don't miss anything.

Ian: Well, fear of missing out is like horror for a Seven. But they have a need to be spontaneous and fun and always keeping it light. But it's all in service to avoiding pain. And pain to a Seven would be grief, boredom, stuck.

Mark: Being uncomfortable.

Ian: Anything uncomfortable. It's they just default to how do we lighten this up. They wanna cram as much pleasure and fun into every given minute as possible.

Mark: And what's wrong with that?

Ian: Tell him what's wrong with that.

Mark: Wait, come on, tell me what's wrong with that.

Ian: There is nothing wrong with it until you begin to overplay it, exaggerate it, and over rely on it. So then it doesn't become a gift. Then it becomes...

Mark: Annoying.

Ian: Well, it becomes something that is more of a curse than a blessing because you're now using the gift really that God gave you, which is joy, in service to what your ego wanted to do, which is to protect you against things like pain and all the things that regular civilians have to feel. But the reason that you guys avoid is because you suspect that if I go there, if I go into that space of pain, I may not come out, and there'll be no one here to support me.

Andrew: Does that resonate?

Mark: Well, kind of a little bit. But I do love a serious conversation. I don't feel the need to be on all the time. And I don't like being around comedians who are on all the time. They annoy me because you have to think as hard to follow a joke as you do if we were having a real serious conversation. And I have found that some of the greatest humor I've been able to use in my life on stage has come from horrific situations. Hitting Shepherd Drive face first without a helmet. I got 20 minutes out of that. It's one of the funniest stories I've ever told.

Andrew: So he's gonna turn it to humor, and I'm gonna turn it into a song that dangles on despair.

Mark: One more thing I was gonna say when I talked to the lady the other day is that what I got from that, and I do wanna delve into this more 'cause I did learn so much when I discovered I was a Seven and then she told me what that meant. And I was going, dear God, that is me. And is that I have trouble being here.

Andrew: Being present.

Mark: I am always in the future or in the past. And I have learned prior to this that God is in neither place. He won't even go with you to either place because neither one exists. I mean, I know this intellectually, but since that meeting with her I've been telling myself all the time, be here. In my head, be here.

Ian: Be here now.

Mark: Put the phone down, be here. And it's just the beginning process for me, but I did learn that from that. And those two words I think are gonna help.

Ian: Well, Sevens typically have monkey mind. They go from one idea, one topic to another one. They skip around like hummingbirds dipping into every flower. And so they have trouble focusing and really oftentimes have trouble finishing things. I tell Sevens sometimes you need a to-finish list, not a to-do list. You need a to-finish list.

Mark: Interesting.

Ian: Because they get toward the end of a project and it's sort of, I got something else. This is...

Mark: Well, it becomes work.

Andrew: Okay, so all this awareness though, and I was hearing a lot of this in your story too, Lisa, when I was listening to your all's podcasts together. There's one thing to become aware of yourself that I think is good, whether that's through counseling, whether that's through the Enneagram, whatever. But then what do you do with that, right? If I'm merely aware of myself, self-awareness can’t be the end goal, right? How does this awareness of myself as a Two and my core health, my core fears, desires, and all that, how does that actually help me interact in my relationships with others, in my relationship with myself, especially from a spiritual growth standpoint. That's what I think of because my core thing is wanting to be loved and valued, which is probably all of our core desire to some degree. I don't know what mine is at a Two exactly, but how does my being aware of my Two-ness and your Three-ness and your Four-ness and his Seven-ness take us--

Ian: His highness.

Andrew: Somewhere good. You know what I mean? You know what I'm asking?

Mark: How has it changed your life, finding out you're a Three?

Lisa: Okay, so I think there’s certainly different ways to learn these tools and use them. Ian may have a different way. I'm kind of experimenting more with what you said. Awareness, that's not an end of itself, but I do think awareness can be an end in itself. Especially if I take the awareness and then try to change myself, I'm gonna just tap into my Three energy and use that to change myself, so I'm just actually reinforcing it. And I'm wondering if that will apply to other numbers as well. But the awareness and then if there is work to be done, it's in the acceptance, self-compassion around it rather than, oh, ugly. I don't wanna be a Three. That's just creepy. Any number, I think if you really do identify your number, there's going to be an element that's like, I don't wanna be that.

Mark: Glutton.

Lisa: Any of them. And so for me, the most important work is awareness and then gentleness toward myself about it. There's me doing that again. Here's me feeling insecure again and wanting to perform in order to get love rather than try to fix myself.

Andrew: Has it changed the way then you've seen others as you've been more gentle and caring with yourself to this? I even think about you saying how you just kept those things secret. Now that you're becoming aware of those and not afraid of those, at least in regards to God still loves me, through that other people… I mean, does that change how--

Lisa: It changes everything 'cause even in that scenario, the fancy word for keeping a secret was hiding behind the persona. So I created this character, this role, that was perfect, perfect Christian, perfect mother, perfect wife, perfect whatever, because I thought I needed that in order to have people like me. And so, of course, that actually turns out to be more like Teflon, and it actually works against connection. But in the point where I was able to first of all experience that God's love not only did not retreat or he didn't leave when I wasn't perfect but actually felt more connected. When I kind of played into that and experimented, then I began to experiment with coming out from behind the persona with other people and experiencing connection. And then, of course, that then encourages them to come out from behind their self-protective mechanism for whatever they are, for whatever number, so that there was real connection at an authentic level.

Ian Morgan Cron singing “God Believes in You” featuring Mark Lowry and Andrew Greer

When you start to doubt if you exist
God believes in you
Confounded by the evidence
God believes in you

When your chances seem so slim
When your light burns so dim
And you swear you don't believe in Him
God believes in you

When you rise up just to fall again
God believes in you
Deserted by your closest friends
God believes in you

When you're betrayed with just a kiss
You turn your cheek with another fist
It does not have to end like this
God believes in you

Everything matters if anything matters at all
Everything matters no matter how big
No matter how small
God believes in you
God believes in you

When you're so ashamed that you could die
God believes in you
And you can't do right even though you try
God believes in you

Blessed are the ones who grieve
The ones who mourn, the ones who bleed
In sorrow you sow but in joy you reap
God believes in you

Everything matters if anything matters at all
Everything matters no matter how big
No matter how small
God believes in you
God believes in you
God believes in you

ChildFund Sponsorship Message

Mark: You can help change the life of a child today by partnering with Andrew and me and supporting a boy or a girl in Guatemala through ChildFund today.

Andrew: Your sponsorship will not only improve the future of one child's life, your child sponsorship will promote communities in Guatemala. The communities that Mark and I just visited. Where we saw parents who are learning to value and to protect and to advance the worth and rights of their teens and children. Who through your child's sponsorship are literally changing the culture of each child's community from the inside out.

Mark: Perhaps you already sponsor a child. Would you consider sponsoring another child in Guatemala? Maybe in honor of one of your children, a new grandchild, a special niece or nephew. It takes so little to make such a profound difference in the life of a child. Your sponsored child is a real kid with real dreams, just like the dreams of your children and grandchildren. We know because we met them. Kids that want to be doctors and lawyers and teachers even musicians kind of like us. Your sponsorship gives these children their chance to achieve their very unique dreams.

Andrew: You may not be able to change the whole world, but you can change the world for one child. Visit childfund.org/dinnerconversations to sponsor a child in Guatemala today. As a small way to say thanks for your child sponsorship, we will send you an autographed Season Two DVD and Songs From The Set CD.

Mark: Yes, plus a special item made just for you by the communities in Guatemala. And every sponsor and a guest is invited to a Dinner Conversations Friends & Family Weekend in Nashville.

Andrew: Hey now, which includes mealtimes with Mark and me, private little concerts and chitchats with our friends, and a special Sunday morning service that will happen right before you head out of town.

Mark: And if you sponsor more than one child, you will have the opportunity to be a guest on an actual episode of Dinner Conversations during the Friends & Family Weekend in Nashville.

Andrew: Does it get better than that?

Mark: No.

Andrew: Does it, Mark? Does it? Stay tuned for exact details. And don't forget to visit childfund.org/dinnerconversations to sponsor your child today

Mark: What number would care the least about all this?

Ian: About what now?

Mark: About any of this. I mean, 'cause I'm so confused right now. I mean, why does anyone listening need this? And also, why is this any different from Myers-Briggs or one of those others?

Ian: Because lots of people go through life with very little self-knowledge. And when that happens, they go on autopilot of personality. They go to sleep in their personality. They're just reflexively doing the same stuff over and over. You know this, right? We're old enough that you can look in the rearview mirror of your life and see a repeating pattern, repeating patterns of the same mistakes over and over and over and over and over again. And the reason for that is is that we haven't been self-knowledgeable enough and self-aware enough to realize, wait a minute, I'm on autopilot of personality here. These are just defense systems or mechanisms that have been running since or preprogramming that's been since childhood just running. And once you learn the Enneagram, you're able, as Lisa was saying earlier, you begin to say, there it goes. I'm launching into that. I'm beginning to become a little manic. My mind is running too fast. I'm telling jokes right and left. And you could stop and say to yourself, in a moment like that for a Seven for example and go, what am I trying to avoid right now? What feeling or fear or something's going on that I don't wanna feel, and so I'm just amping up my personality style in order to duck it.

Andrew: And what you're hitting on is what I've heard you say before that the Enneagram is not about just identifying what you do, but it's why you do it.

Ian: Totally, because all of us have traits of all nine numbers. I mean, if you just were trying to base it on traits, you'd go, I'm that or I'm that or I'm that or I'm that or I'm that. The way you determine your number isn't by characteristics or traits. They may be clues, but ultimately, it's by which of these underlying unconscious motivations do you most identify with and that will--

Mark: I asked you about fear. You said the underlying motivation for a Six, Seven, one of these--

Ian: Five, Six, Seven.

Mark: Is fear. But everybody has fear.

Ian: Totally, and everybody has shame and everybody has anger. I would just say that for Fives, Sixes, and Sevens that fear's the one that's most close, right under the skin.

Mark: It's a good motivator. It's a horrible motivator. But it is a motivator.

Ian: But Five, Six, and Seven, that's your management system. That's your fear management system, right? Is the--

Mark: Five, Six, Seven

Ian: What I just said about Sevens, that's your particular way of dealing with fear, right, in your life is this avoidance of pain and of unpleasant feelings through this constant pursuit of really happiness and spontaneity. When you're not very self-aware, it has a Peter Pan like quality. It's like, I just don't wanna grow up.

Andrew: I've always thought of you as Peter Pan.

Ian: He’s just like Peter Pan.

Mark: Well, at least you've always thought of me.

Andrew: Okay, but when I think about it, aren't we all, like when we talk about our core desires and stuff. When I think about my core desire, this desire to be loved, to feel loved, and to understand my value because I am loved, I feel like in some ways, just like he's saying with fear, aren't we all desiring the same core thing? Aren't we all on the same trajectory of wanting to be safe in the knowledge that we are loved and received or--

Lisa: Well, I think you used two different words. Safe and love are not necessarily the same thing. And I think that... One of the questions, like why is this important to know? I think our management, our defense systems, the things that we learned as a child, the things that really do kind of help us identify our number, have been put in place to keep us safe. But they're a barrier to protect us. And so then later on down the road, we may be safe, but we probably are not experiencing love because there's a barrier. And so it's in the breaking through that fear and letting that fall down that we have an opportunity to actually connect with ourself to be authentic, to be who we were all along before we got afraid and hid behind this protection. So I think ultimately knowing it helps us to be able to identify it. So then we can do the brave work of letting it fall slowly to have what we most want, which is to be loved but not loved for whatever it is we've painted on the outside of this fun loving guy, successful woman, giver, unique individual, but to be loved for who we really are. And I wanna be loved whether I'm successful or not. You want somebody to think you're special just because you're special in their eyes. You wanna be loved...

Andrew: You don't have to do anything.

Lisa: And you wanna be able to be able to not be funny and not be happy all the time and, as you've said, swim around in those places where the real connection is. But that takes bravery, and it first takes kind of knowing what it is we have to gently let drop.

Andrew: Was that harder growing up in a spotlight scenario? 'Cause you were how old when you first ended up in California?

Lisa: Twelve.

Andrew: In Mickey Mouse Club, right? And so that's a lot of happy. That's a lot of a certain exterior, I mean, by the nature of your job, what you're getting paid to do. Was it easier to hide?

Lisa: I started hiding a lot earlier than 12.

Andrew: It was more innate than just some profession.

Lisa: I mean, I think we do pick up these defense mechanisms, these self-protection management systems, really, really early 'cause there's just such brilliance in them too. And they really are something to not despise but to say, oh, thank you for keeping me safe for so long. Let's work together to be loved. But that takes a while to be able to kind of tap into the core.

Mark: How's that going?

Lisa: It's a long, hard journey. It's not easy. And there's a lot of loss involved. As you mentioned earlier, why wouldn't you wanna be happy all the time? Or like, why wouldn't I want to be successful? I remember that early on when I realized I was successful but didn't have any close friends, and that to really concentrate on relationships, I might not be as successful. And that's been the truth. I've had to let go of a lot of success in exchange for something that's more valuable, but it's certainly--

Andrew: Still felt like a loss, right?

Lisa: It doesn't get what the world tells you and the ego feeds on, junk food maybe.

Andrew: Was there grief involved in that then, even though it seemed like a surface thing? Well, I can give up my success for relationship, right? In our mind, we think, sure, I could do that.

Lisa: Well, people love us the way we are. You may lose friends if you stop giving so much to get love.

Andrew: I've lost a lot of relationships when I stop.

Lisa: There's a lot of people that probably it's like they just want you because they know you’ll give them anything. So there's grief in real life. There's people that don’t wanna be friends with me because I'm not... Like they held me up as a standard and I've let them down and they just need to get away from me, so there is grief ‘cause there's great loss.

Andrew: I mean, you're hitting on something really… And we may have talked about this before. In all my soured relationships, what I always end up in hindsight going is I want someone who doesn’t need me but just wants me.

Lisa: But see, you may have to make the first step, and that's to not just feed everybody and fulfill everybody’s need and that's scary because that's when you just stand there naked without making the move to get the connection that you know you can and it may not come. But if it does, it's beautiful. And if it doesn't, it's painful.

Mark: Life is just a pain.

Lisa: Spoken like a true Seven. Let's just stay in the joy zone.

Andrew: So we just pit ourselves against it. So the Enneagram could also, this kind of awareness about ourselves, could also lead to a greater, deeper surrender if we really start to receive--

Mark: How do you get the spirit… Is this a spiritual thing?

Ian: Totally, and you asked earlier about the Myers-Briggs and stuff. I think one of the things that differentiates the Enneagram is that it really has a powerful spiritual component to it in that it really doesn't just reveal what's best about you, which it does, but also what's worst about you. One of the things I often do with people is I'll show them the Enneagram diagram, and I say, well, you contain all nine of these. And so if you think about it… One is the perfectionist. We didn't really go over them. But really, when they're healthy, they represent the goodness of God, right? Twos, the love of God. Threes would be the effectiveness of God, the glory of God. Fours, the pathos, the beauty of God. Fives, the wisdom, the omniscience of God. Sixes, the unfailing loyalty of God. Sevens, the joy of God. Eights, the power and justice of God. And Nines, the peace of God. Now that's when you’re healthy and you're using… You have all those inside 'cause you're bearers of the image of God. But you have a particular gift or charism to bring joy or to bring love, right? But when you overplay that card, when you use it in service to your own ego's agenda, when you use that card to manipulate other people to build their lives and organize their lives to meet your needs and to fulfill your agenda, that's when you get in trouble. And so what the Enneagram does is it reveals, here's this beautiful piece of you and here's where it can go south.

Mark: Where you need to work.

Ian: And without that self-awareness… It's interesting, Calvin… This is what actually put me on the track of… One of the reasons when I read this line it said, "Without knowledge of self, there is no knowledge of God.” Opening lines of the Institute's.

Andrew: Which if we're the bearers of the image of God, that would make sense.

Ian: Right 'cause what Calvin was saying is, if you wanna know about God, what is the closest primary source of information available to you to do it? You.

“If you wanna know about God, what is the closest primary source of information available to you to do it? You.”

— Ian Morgan Cron

Mark: So if someone out there Google's Enneagram, they may not find you or they may not find a Christian enneagram coach. Why have you connected those two? What makes it better?

Beth: That's a great question. So I'm a pastor's wife, and we've done ministry for years. And as we know, transformation really comes from understanding Christ and what he has done for us. And so when people say, “Well, how does this bring transformation?” I have a really hard time just saying, just believe in it because believe in what? So the gospel is what really brings the transformation. And what I'm hoping to do as an Enneagram coach is to show people that as humans, we end up being kind of in this little box, this constraint box. 'Cause a lot of people are like, "Don't put me in a box.” I'm like, "I'm not putting you in a box. You're already in a box. I'm helping you to get out of that box.” And so what happens with our flesh, our personality, the not so great parts of us, we get real constrained. I have to think this. I have to be this way. They're bringing self-condemnation, fear, and shame. And I have to be better in some form, whatever the type feels that is, to earn God's love and favor and other people's love and favor. So we are very constrained, but that's not the gospel. The gospel is you are his beloved child, free, forgiven, cherished, unconditional love. And that's what's true 24/7, 365. But what happens? Our personalities chime in, the world chimes in, the flesh, all this stuff, and all of a sudden, we come back over here. We fall in those same pitfalls of shame, self-condemnation, fear, all of those things. We feel like we're an orphan, have got to do it all on our own. And so that's this common constraint here on Earth. So we are with the Lord, but we're also here on Earth. So my goal is to help people understand why this keeps happening, and why aren't we fully experiencing this, and how can we experience the belovedness that we already are in Christ. So that's my goal.

Mark: How has Enneagram changed your life?

Beth: I'm a very different person. So my personality type goes along to get along. And so I used to basically follow my husband and his career doing whatever, not because he told me I should, just that's what I did. And so I really didn’t voice what I thought and felt. I didn't really stand out. Nines really don't want to do that. But when God said, "You have an important message to get out there," it was like, oh. And so my work is trusting that God has something for me.

Mark: When you say your work...

Beth: My work as a Nine. So as a Nine, moving into the healthy part of Nine is to assert myself, to have confidence, not arrogancy, but confidence that God has given me a message and to present it to others. So the Nine really wants to just--

Mark: So there really are steps for each number, how you can do better?

Beth: Yeah.

Mark: And mine are?

Beth: Yours are savor. That's the biggest work for a Seven, to savor the food, the experience, the relationships, the moment. That's just one really good word.

Mark: I tell that to myself all the time and didn't even know Enneagram.

Beth: My dad's a Seven, and he savors his food, and that's where I got the word--

Mark: Okay, savor and what else?

Beth: So savor and just being in the moment. So Sevens are constantly thinking of what's next.

Mark: Oh my gosh.

Beth: Because they're--

Mark: I feel like I'm sitting here with Jesus or something.

Beth: A little ninja, right?

Mark: Reading my mail.

Beth: And so if you're able to go, I know my mind is going to the next thing because I'm feeling this emptiness, I'm feeling anxious. I don't need to be like that. I know God has everything.

Mark: Change the channel.

Beth: So you go from, I don't need to take care of all of these things, Christ is gonna take care of them. He's gonna fill me up. He's going to plug those holes and bring me satisfaction and rest. Just the mindset shift will help you to become more calm, to be more present. And even then, when your mind starts racing and starts going off, you can go, wait, what's going on? So I always tell people, we can parent our personalities. Our personalities are these little kids throwing big temper tantrums that we have to do it this way. And it's like, no, we don’t. There's truth that we can hold on to and we can say to the personality in a loving way, "No, we're not gonna do that.” This is the path that we need to go on because even though it's hard to grow, it's what brings freedom and rest.

“We can parent our personalities.”

— Beth McCord

Mark: So the word for today is savor.

Beth: Savor for the Seven.

Mark: Well, I've savored our time together.

Beth: Well, thank you.

Ian: What the Enneagram does is provide us an opportunity to really look at ourselves. To look at the defense mechanisms and the way that we defend our own hearts. To learn to relax it, to learn to soften our grip on it. To stop using those things to win love, appreciation, to protect us from the things that frighten us, to ward off the world, right? So these are really just systems that came into place when we were young kids to protect our essential selves, right? In a world that felt hostile. They were also ways of… Kids are real smart really. I was reading yesterday… I was away this weekend with Helen Palmer in San Francisco. She's a great Enneagram teacher. And she says, "Kids know what the family wants from them even before the family does.” Isn't that amazing. So what she's saying is that we read faces and responses, and we as little kids go, I gotta get my needs met, so I have to create a personality that may not be consistent with who I actually am. It may not be consistent with how I'm made, but I gotta do this, right? So I gotta be a winner if I wanna get that, what I perceive is my love, my security, the esteem of others, a sense of mastery and control in the world. You see where I'm going? So I think part of the goal of the Enneagram is to get back to who you really are because all these types or strategies or programs for happiness, what we think is gonna get happiness but really they're false selves, they're personas, they're in other words, the ego, right? If we can just relax our grip on them with unconditional self-friendship and compassion, as you were saying not beating ourselves up, like what you might have learned in the church. But just to go, well, yeah, of course, this is a system that I’ve relied on for a long time, but I don't have to actually live my life chained to it. I can release my grip on it. And when I do and it falls away, I don't even have to really try. That true self just emerges on its own.

Lisa: And I think, tagging onto that, that would be, if there is a goal that we can define, it would be rest or peace. And so in the Old Testament, God was leaving the children of Israel. The goal was rest, to stop wandering, to just be in relationship with God. And then with Jesus, it was peace. He left his peace. So all of this stuff that we do to protect ourself, that is not rest and that’s not peace. It's exhausting, and it's self-protection. And so I think the goal is to stop all that and then just rest in who we are. And the irony is at first it feels like, well, I'll just rest in who I am. It's not gonna be as good as what I was.

Ian: Or as interesting.

Lisa: Or as interesting. I'm probably not gonna get what I want out of it. It's gonna be hard, but I'll just… The irony is when we discover our true self, because I can't say that I like myself because I don't know myself yet, but because I shut myself off at such a young age that after you drop the persona, that little self is still at that age. So I gotta find out who I am and grow up and grow into that self. So it may be little bitty before you even get in touch with it. And then there's a resting. And you don't make something grow. You rest, you put it in the sun, it rains, and it grows on its own. And so even that is peace and rest. But then you blossom into who you were supposed to be, who you've always been all along, and it's a beautiful thing. But the interim part, that’s what we defend against with these ways of being most of our life because we don't wanna go through that middle part either.

Ian: I mean, I love what Richard Rohr says about this. He and I had a conversation on my podcast about it. Of course the Galatians, you know, “For I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live but Christ lives in me. The life I live…" But wait a minute, who's that I? There's an I here in the beginning that you just said you just got crucified. Now in the second half of that sentence, you're saying the life I now live. Wait a minute, who's that? So that word I is ego in Greek?

Lisa: You let go my ego.

Ian: Yes, exactly. So maybe what Paul was saying there in the different translation is for my truth, my false self no longer lives, right? It's been crucified with Christ, that false self.

Lisa: And you know the crucifixion.

Ian: And it ain't 10 minutes. It took Jesus a while to die on the cross, six hours. And the daunting resuscitates too every now and then. It comes back to life. But it's the false self that has to go. I used to think what was being described in that first half of that text was that God wants to annihilate my identity. You know what I mean? I gotta go with all those things.

Andrew: Like erase me.

Ian: And I gotta delete myself and become some mimic version of Jesus in the world. No, that's not what's being said here. The false self has to go. The true self is the I, I think, in the second half there of that statement. And I love that idea that the goal of the spiritual life is to let go of the false self because nothing could please God more than our being our true selves, the ones that he created, to live in the world and reflect his joy, his love, his glory, right? His beauty and pathos. I mean, we just get our ego out of the way, and then all of a sudden, all those gifts just begin to shine on their own. We don't have to do anything, nothing to work at it.

Mark: So it's like dying to Christ. I heard that all my life. You die daily. So it's the same type thing. I mean, it could be hourly.

Ian: I think with the Enneagram is really good for is self-knowledge and self-awareness. And what I mean by self-awareness is that once you develop enough self-knowledge, you can develop an inner observer that in the moment can monitor and then regulate your thoughts, feelings, and actions. For me, I struggle with envy as a Four, right?

Mark: You struggle with what?

Ian: Envy. Envy is a big deal for me, gluttony is for you, pride is for you, right? Deceit is for you.

Mark: What is for her?

Lisa: Deceit. And a capital Three, which I have been all my life, deceit even to myself. I'm not even aware, mostly in the past, but still, I'm not even aware where I'm not being authentic because I've been inauthentic all my life because I've been afraid to be authentic.

Andrew: Little lies, little exaggerations, little...

Lisa: Well, I don't know, just more like performance. It's performing to be a certain way so long that I think that's who I am. But it's because I’ve been too afraid to drop it and really discover who I am.

Mark: Do you like who you are?

Lisa: Do I like who I am? I still don't know that I know myself well enough to answer that question. I liked who I became. I liked who I made myself to be probably better than I like myself who I am. But I will say that it feels really good to be loved and accepted for who I am as opposed to admired and respected for who I became.

Mark: Someone said I'd rather be loved for who I am… Hated for who I am than loved for who I'm not.

Lisa: I don't know that I'm that.

Mark: Maybe that's wrong.

Ian: Well, if those are my options.

Andrew: It's funny 'cause I think about it when I'm just thinking about who I really am, I don't know that I like that that much. But when I am around people who accept me just as I am, it's a profound experience and one I don't want to disengage with.

Mark: And I don't know if I like who I am all the time either. But I agree with God, that I was worth it. I mean, I agree with God that I was worth dying for. I don't understand that. But who am I to disagree with God? And I've chosen to believe Christ is God. And God thought we were worth it. And so I think the created is rude to tell the Creator that we weren't good enough. Mentally, I've got it figured out that way.

Ian: But do you have it there? 'Cause I mean, I think it's really simple to have that as an abstraction or an idea. I know plenty of people who say I love myself because I'm loved. But do you have a felt experience of that, or is that just some--

Mark: Of a what?

Ian: A felt experience of it. Do you know that here so that idea vibrates through your whole being, or is it just like that's a nice idea that spins around?

Mark: The things I used to wanna change about myself I have learned to accept and love because they're not changing.

Ian: I have moments of it. I think it's a little bit like clouds and sun. Periodically, the clouds go by, the sun comes out, and then here comes another weather pattern of self-loathing or whatever.

Mark: We all have days where I doubt everything. I do.

Andrew: Sure, that takes a lot of courage, that translation from the mind, how we work it out in our mind, to believing it in our heart. That translation is where I'm still in that.

Mark: Twelve inches from the head to the heart, and it's a long trip, ain't it?

Andrew: Yeah, I mean, it feels that way. It feels like a lifelong trip. And one, is it possible that we'll never fully get there on this side of life? I mean, is that the possibility too, and there's a surrender in that that's sweet. That hey, we can do this self-actualization and awareness, and we're getting closer to who we are.

Mark: But what's the goal? What's the goal with this angiogram?

Lisa: Angiogram, it's all about the heart.

Ian: It's all about the heart, bro.

Mark: What would your mother say about all this?

Ian: "Darling, I don't know."

Andrew: Details.

Mark: I love your mother. I'm dying to meet that woman.

Ian: You have no idea.

Mark: She sounds like a character off Saturday Night Live.

Ian: She is.

Andrew: But if either of you had to sum it up, and it's probably non-summary--

Mark: Is the goal to sell books?

Andrew: For you?

Ian: Well, it's not to not sell books.

Andrew: That's a good one.

Mark: We wanna thank Ian Morgan Cron and Lisa Whelchel.

Andrew: That's right. You can find their books and their product of all sorts in our Amazon affiliate link in the episode description below.

Mark: And if you'd like to binge watch Dinner Conversations, you can do that right now on Amazon Prime. Dinner Conversations is brought to you by ChildFund, a community development organization that has been envisioning a world where every child is free to live with their fullest potential no matter where they're from or what challenges they face since 1938.

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Mark: It really does take so little to make a difference.

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Watch Our Other Episodes:

S03, E02: Perfectly Imperfect featuring Wynonna Judd

S03, E03: Surviving Miscarriage featuring Jason Crabb and Sonya Isaacs

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S03, E06: Suicide: Hiding in Plain Sight featuring Mark Means and Wes Hampton

4/20/20 4/20/20

An Intellectual Faith featuring Eric Metaxas

New York Times bestseller and radio personality Eric Metaxas discusses the crossroads of culture and faith as we ask the question, "What does it mean to be a Christian in the 21st century?" — peppered with Eric's infamous wit and no-nonsense grit. Filmed on-location at Gaylord’s Opryland Resort in Nashville.

New York Times bestseller and radio personality Eric Metaxas discusses the crossroads of culture and faith as we ask the question, "What does it mean to be a Christian in the 21st century?" — peppered with Eric's infamous wit and no-nonsense grit. Filmed on-location at Gaylord’s Opryland Resort in Nashville. Don't miss a single episode of Dinner Conversations — subscribe below!

Transcript

Andrew: Partner with us and our good friends at ChildFund to change the world in the life of a child by considering sponsoring a child today.

Mark: It really does take so little to make a difference.

Andrew: Visit childfund.org/dinnerconversations.

Mark: A child is waiting.

Mark: Today’s guest is Eric Metaxas. Now Eric is an author, a scholar. His book on Martin Luther, incredible. I love it. And I've read his book on Bonhoeffer, and Bill Gaither is his biggest fan. I'm telling you, I've never seen Bill Gaither be a fan of someone, but he loves Eric Metaxas, and come to find out, Eric is funny.

Andrew: Yeah, he's super funny. He seems like this intellectual, heady type. He's a New Yorker, he's got cool glasses, he always wears suits, and he writes about these amazing people in history, especially in our Christian, spiritual history, but he is super funny. And he talks about in this first segment about a common culture where at one point in time as Americans we had more shared ideals and so conversation was a little bit easier because we came to the table already with some common experiences, and that has changed a lot more recently. So we're gonna talk with him some. We're at a special conference.

Mark: National Religious Broadcasters Conference.

Andrew: Yup, at Opryland Hotel, here in Nashville, a new location and a fun conversation with our friend Eric Metaxas.

Mark: And there's one seat left at the table, and it's yours. Let's join the conversation.

Eric: And who are you guys again?

Mark: I'm Mark Lowry.

Eric: You're Mark.

Andrew: And I'm Andrew Greer.

Eric: You're Andrew. And you're hosting this show?

Mark: That's right.

Eric: And have we started rolling? Are we on?

Andrew We're rolling.

Eric: We're rolling?

Mark: So you're the world’s greatest authority.

Eric: You know what, Professor Irwin Corey, the famous Professor Irwin Corey whom I had the privilege of meeting, he always billed himself as the world's greatest authority, but he passed away about a year ago and I thought the mantle, I prayed for a double portion. I am the world's greatest authority now, only because he's no longer with us, so yeah, I'm the world’s greatest authority, generally speaking, generally speaking.

Mark: I don't know if you know who Bill Gaither is.

Eric: Um, I think I do.

Mark: You mentioned his name the other day on the show.

Eric: You guys think I'm some idiot?

Mark: Well, I don't know. You're from New York.

Eric: Oh snap. That hurt. Is this microphone on?

Mark: Now you are Bill Gaither's hero. And I don't say that lightly. Let me explain.

Eric: Now I'm real confused.

Mark: Let me tell you. He reads all your books.

Eric: Bill Gaither reads my books, the 81-year-old Bill Gaither?

Mark: Yes, he reads everything that he can get his hands on. He called me the other day and said, "I just read a great book on Martin Luther.” And I said, "Who wrote it?” "Eric Metaxas.” "Oh, that's Bonhoeffer.” 'Cause we both have read that. And I said, "I'm gonna interview him next week.” He said, "Can I come?” And he was gonna fly down.

Andrew: But he can't make it.

Mark: Now you mentioned him on your show the other day--

Eric: But I always mention him as a punchline.

Mark: What is the joke?

Eric: I'm not trying to be mean, but I'm saying that I'll have like Supertramp will be playing, or something like that will be playing or Amy Winehouse or something else. I'll say, "Ladies and gentlemen, as you know, that's the great Bill Gaither.” And I just keep going. And today, we were playing some music up there, and I said, "Oh, that's just fantastic. That's the lovely Sandi Patty,” and some people in the audience were like, "That's not Sandi Patty.” It's like, "No, it was Elton John. That was a joke."

Mark: When I read your books, I would never know that humor is a major part of who you are.

Eric: Not really.

Mark: Well, it seems to be.

Andrew: Satire humor?

Mark: And it also is kind of humor where if someone doesn't get hurt, it's not that funny.

Eric: Whoa. I've just been called mean.

Mark: No, but it is... I love that kind of humor 'cause it's like pointing out the truth.

Eric: Well, a little bit. I think that some humor has an edge, but you know, here's the thing. If your humor has an edge, you can still do it in a loving way. There's mean humor. Not al edgy humor has to be mean. And I think that my love language, I joke around there’s a sixth love language, Don Rickles and I are the only ones who got it, but the sixth love language is to make fun of someone in public to express your love. I tease people to express my affection. That's a fact, that's a fact. And I've driven away four wives. That's not true.

Mark: I'm starting to get it.

Eric: Yeah, but it's kinda funny because it is true that that's how I express... I think I got that from my mom. My mom was always joking around and teasing and stuff. It's a way of expressing affection. It's what I do. And the older you get, the more you feel free to speak your mind in a way. And I think there's a joy in that, but again, you wanna do it in such a way that you're not really... I mean, if you can serve God with sarcasm, then it's good sarcasm. But if you're not serving God with the sarcasm, you need to cut out the sarcasm.

Andrew: Is there ever a rub? A New Yorker in an evangelical world, like those don't go together for me.

Eric: Well, theoretically they don’t, but I think that's part of the problem. That's kind of my raison d'être. My life's calling is to be who God made me to be where I am, and I think that the Lord is the one that sent me to Yale and gave me the credentials that I could fool people into thinking I’m some kind of intellectual or whatever. It's the glasses. And the point is that we, believers, have been underrepresented dramatically in the world of the secular elites, and that has caused a very bizarre skewing in the culture. In other words, if you watch TV or movies, whatever, you get the idea that anybody with a brain is sure that God didn’t exist and we evolved out of the primordial soup by random mutation and there's no meaning to life. Now nobody actually drills down into what that means, but they just act like yeah, all the smart people know that, and all those jugheads who believe in Jesus and all that crazy stuff, we just don't talk about them. And the fact of the matter is that the greatest people I’ve ever known intellectually, emotionally in terms of humor have been people who have a full-throated Christian faith, so I thought how come the world doesn't portray that so part of what I wanna do with my life is to tell people, "Hey, there are a lot of extraordinary human beings that you would admire on every level who believe Jesus rose from the dead, was born of a virgin, did these miracles, walked on water, and they're bright people who understand that you know, maybe this sounds odd, but it actually happened.” I mean, that's part of my who I am.

“My life’s calling is to be who God made me to be where I am.”

— Eric Metaxas

Mark: Let me ask you. I'm sorry, I'm spilling my water.

Eric: Is this prop food?

Andrew: No, you can eat it.

Eric: Oh, like I'm gonna eat it on camera, Oh sure, yeah.

Andrew: That's all we do, that's right.

Mark: Now, do you think the divide I'm seeing in Christians even over politics… When I was growing up my grandmother, who was a Republican, took my grandfather, who was a Democrat, to the voting booth. They'd vote each other out and then come home. What has changed? Why can't we have a civil discussion any more? I used to get Jerry Falwell's Christmas card and Tony Campolo's Christmas card. I'd set 'em side by side.

Eric: Well, now hold on because Tony Campolo, if he's your representative of the hard left, there's your answer. Tony Campolo, you might disagree with him, but you don't think of him as a screeching ninny. You think of him as somebody who has some points to be made.

Mark: And he's in love with Jesus.

Eric: And who actually loves Jesus. But to be fair, Tony Campolo did not take positions that I would say, "That's insane, that's unbiblical.” I mean, maybe more recently he's taken some that I would quibble with, but you cannot compare him to some of the voices that are out there today.

Andrew: So you see a difference in the current climate?

Eric: I see several differences. I mean, I see several differences. I think that there was, first of all, we had a common culture. We had a culture where we had more in common than we do now, and what we had in common enabled us to have our differences with civility. Something has happened. It's been accelerated, you could say by the internet, that has made that less possible. I wrote a book called If You Can Keep It, which is all about America, and in it I tried to stress what does it mean to be an American for all Americans. If we can all focus on that, it really will change the things that we differ about.

Andrew: Can we do that? I mean, that kind of unity?

Eric: Well look, I don't think… There are always gonna be insane, angry people.

Mark: On both sides.

Eric: On both sides, and I’m sitting with two of ‘em. Now here's the issue, here's the issue. Despite you guys, there are people out there that I think they're just trying to raise their kids, and they're trying to have… They don't wanna have arguments all the time. They want to understand the basics. And so what we have done, I really do think that in the 60s a cultural narrative took hold that was fundamentally anti-American, anti-God, anti-family. It's just a fact. Now those folks all had good points, and that's why those narratives came into being, right? If your father's abusive, you might end up hating men. You might end up not thinking marriage is a good idea. Now all these things come out of a good place, but when that narrative takes hold, it's an entirely negative narrative, takes hold and you start suppressing the other side of the story that family could be the biggest blessing on planet Earth, or that some men are the greatest, most self-sacrificial human beings who ever walked the planet, and they died for their wives and their children and strangers, and let's celebrate those people. Once you buy into a narrative that says, “No, we don't wanna talk about that. We just wanna talk about how men are bad, and masculinity is by definition toxic and harmful," whatever. Once that narrative takes hold, you can't have a substantive conversation because you're only representing one side, and happened in the culture because really of the sexual revolution where that narrative took hold. I argue it's because of the rise of mass media. In other words, before mass media information was processed more locally, but once you have a mass media, whatever that mass media thinks is gonna be magnified with megaphones and on and on and on, and it just so happens that those cultural elites bought into that worldview more than not and so they live in a bubble. But then that bubble is presented every day via TV or movies or the culture so that you really don't have an ability to compete with that, and so I think that narrative took over. And to say that I’m proud to be an American, suddenly for a lot of segments of culture became a dirty word. We don’t say that because America did this and did this and this. Well, of course every reality is a little complicated, but when you swallow it to the point where you say, “Well, I can't say I'm proud to be an American," now you got a problem because if you understand the sins of other countries, you're getting silly. You're getting simplistic. But I think we're living in a culture that's grabbed onto these narratives, and I just wanna rant for 40 more minutes. Let me rant.

Mark: I would love it.

Andrew: So has that eliminated our ability to think critically? Has mass media just eliminated our...?

Eric: It hasn't eliminated it, but it's gone a long way toward harming it. I mean, one of the most depressing things for me is I'll post something on Facebook or on Twitter, and the responses that must be categorized as idiotic. Why? Not because I disagree with them, but because they have clearly not understood what I even said. Now some of them are unable to understand what I said. Others, who are far worse, didn't even try. They just saw an opportunity to flick back--

Andrew: With their own biases.

Eric: And at that moment, you realize this is useless. In other words, I don't think you need to have a substantive conversation on Twitter, but it can be thoughtful. You can post a thoughtful article. People can think about it. But what a lot of people do is they use it as a place to vent, and that's not biblical. You're not blessing people if you just sit in there, you’re angry and you thought, well, I can kick a few dogs today. Let me get on Twitter, and I can just bang, bang, bang-bang-bang. So you really do have an opportunity to behave that way that it simply didn't exist. You literally had to kick a literal dog if you just wanted to take out your feelings, but today, you can do it on social media all day long.

Andrew: What I love about your authorship, what I love about usually what you have to say is the critical thinking among evangelicals, among Christianity, that this true faith is not a leap into the dark, it's always a leap into the light. This idea that blind faith is not a thing. Even though like I grew up in somewhat of an environment though my parents filtered it differently for me, it was this kind of don't ask questions.

Eric: Well see, that's the point, is it cuts both ways. Blind faith, I get the idea of blind faith, but at the same time, we wanna believe in what's true. If Jesus didn't rise from the dead, if he was not the Messiah, if he's the second person of the Trinity, we don't wanna waste our lives believing in him. We want it to be true. Now, it's not about apologetics and proving that it’s true, but at the same time, let's not pretend that it's not true. Let's not pretend that we can all believe whatever we want. I choose to believe Jesus died on a cross for my sins. Either he did or didn’t. And that's an aspect that, because of the enlightenment, we've divided into there's rationality and then there's spirituality. And you realize, look, you can talk about quantum physics as though it's all theory, but the point is that people say, "Well, no, this is real.” Just 'cause I can't see it, I don't say, “Whatever." I'm still trying to figure it out. And I think when it come to spirituality and faith, we still ought to use our minds to try to understand it. And again, to get back to this narrative since the 60s, I think we’ve been living in a culture that says, "Faith is sort of for crazy people, so we're gonna put it over there, and we're gonna let like African-Americans and other exotic people, they can have their faith because they need it, but those of us in the newsroom and stuff, we're gonna be hyper-rational. We're not gonna get sucked into that crazy stuff, so we're gonna let some groups have that. We're not gonna criticize them, but we've already decided that's just crazy talk.” And my etiquette is it's not crazy talk. The greatest people in the planet have believed this stuff, and it's important for us to understand that it’s either true or it's not. Jesus either rose from the dead bodily or he didn’t. Now, nobody can force you to believe it, but the idea that who's to say. Well, that's like saying, "Well, who's to say if Columbus sailed here in 1492 or 1392? Who's to say?” We oughta be dealing with reality. And I think the church has fallen into this trap of we're gonna have our little religious corner over here, and all that other stuff for the big boys, politics and policy and science, that's over here. And you think, God is supposed to be in everything, you know?

Andrew: And you can speak to that, right, 'cause your background, would you say that comes from agnosticism, like before you had your conversion experience?

Eric: I don't know. I don't really know. Here's what I would say, I think that because I went to Yale University, I was surrounded by people who were not like the people I grew up with. I mean, I grew up in a working class home. And so suddenly you’re around all these smart people who come from wealthy families and stuff, and they all act as though this Christian stuff or whatever or conservative politics, it's all nutcases. So you kinda drink that Kool-Aid, and then when I came to faith supernaturally, the Lord spoke to me in a dream. It was like this mind-blowing experience. Suddenly I thought, “Well, now I gotta deal with all those friends of mine that are gonna think I'm crazy. I know I'm not crazy, but I'm gonna have to have some vocabulary to be able to talk to them in case they're interested. A lot of 'em won't be, but let me see.” So I started reading books and things, and the more I read, the more I was kind of scandalized, and I think I'm perpetually scandalized by this that the reality that I encountered in all these amazing books and minds and people doesn't exist in American reality. It's as if those names don't exist. Like you'll never hear about all the people that I have read about and stuff. It's like a separate reality. We're gonna live in our little secular culture, and we're gonna act like that religion stuff, it's for those people that they need a crutch. Maybe they've been oppressed, or they come from a poor home or whatever it is. They can have that, but we know it's just crazy. More and more and more, I read more and more books, and I thought, not only is this not crazy, but this is dramatically true. It explains everything. I mean, even science, when I wrote my book on miracles, when I was doing all the reading about the fine tuned universe, and Christopher Hitchens said that he was asked, “What is the most compelling argument on the other side, on the God side?” He said, "Without question, the fine tuned universe,” blah-bl-bl-blah. He was like, "That's the one that kind of scares us, all of us, me and my colleagues on the atheist side.” Well, I wrote a piece in the Wall Street journal on this subject, on the fine tuned universe, people came out of the woodwork, basically saying it's stupid, it was disproved a million years ago, and I thought look, first of all, A, that's not true, B, Christopher Hitchens says it's not true. Christopher Hitchens says that even though he's maybe not buying it, it's a sophisticated, troubling argument. But I'm saying again, we kind of live in a culture where when do you ever get that argument? It's just that you’re always getting this idea that oh, there's zillions of planets, and there's life evolving out of puddles everywhere and we're just… That's just unscientific.

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Mark: Oh yes, well you know, you get that after every episode. And what about this mug with our faces on it?

Andrew: What says good morning better?

Mark: It's like we're on both sides so lefty or a righty, you get to see us every morning.

Andrew: You know, I think it's time we get back to those guests.

Mark: Yeah, probably.

Mark: Well, come to find out Eric Metaxas is also a born-again believer. I mean, hardcore. And he's gonna give you his testimony. Now I always love finding out how people find their way to God. You know, I believe there's many ways to Jesus, but there's only one way to God. And that is Jesus. But his route to Jesus was quite interesting.

Andrew: A unique experience. You know, I think we’re hearing more and more, just as we hear more and more about the world and people in different parts of the world and how they are experiencing Jesus, the Christ, and a lot of 'em are experiencing it through dreams, and Eric has a really incredible story. What's amazing to me is we hear all these stories from around the world about people having some, what I would consider, seemingly miraculous experiences, as far as their first introduction to God through Jesus. Maybe people who have an Islamic background and territories there, having dreams about Jesus and grace and love that they’ve never experienced before. But Eric's an American. He was here in our culture. He went to church growing up, and yet still had this supernatural experience that actually brought him to faith and God through Jesus.

Andrew: Tell us your personal story because I think like I read a book, maybe five, six years ago, Brother Andrew, who was this Catholic priest who works with a lot in Islamic countries and territories in the 50s and the 60s and what they called Muslim background believers, MBBs, and it was dreams, it was visions, that were bringing them to literally a contrast of what they never experienced before. I mean, that kind of personal story speaks.

Mark: So wasn't it a person who told you about Jesus?

Eric: Well no, it was. It’s a little complicated. It's not that complicated. Basically, I had had some faith, and then by the time I graduated Yale, more and more I just thought that’s just for crazy, right-wing people and I live in a world of cultural sophisticates and we don't know what's true. And guess what, we know that you can't know what's true. We know that if you're really smart, you know that nobody can have the answers to these unanswerable questions, so you're adrift. I was not pleased to be adrift. I was not happy. I wasn't saying, "I'm psyched. I can sin. Let's have fun.” I was just confused. And so I wasn't like a militant atheist, I wasn't happy about it, but I just didn't see that the Christians could be right or anybody could be right so I was drifting along. I fell on really hard times, which is to say I moved back in with my parents, and that was tough 'cause my parents are working-class European immigrants. They don't have any patience for like, oh, we work menial jobs to send you to Yale and now you got problems? Like you should be buying us a house. So I moved back in with them. I was about 24, and it was really a tough time for me. And I got the worst job you could get. What job can you get with an English degree from Yale? None. I got a job as a proofreader at Union Carbide Corporation in Danbury, Connecticut, hell on Earth for me. Just miserable. And in that time, in that miserable, miserable, miserable time, I met a man, graphic designer, who started sharing his faith with me, and he was relentless, and I was relentlessly like, "Don't get too close. I'm not interested.” But we kept talking, and I was in enough pain that I'm willing to listen. Well, that went on for like 10 or 11 months of cat and mouse where I’m pretending to believe it, but I haven't had an experience. But every once in a while I'm like, "Lord, if you're there, give me a sign.” I don't even believe I'm talking to God. I'm just like, "If you’re there, give me a sign. I hope you're there, but I don't think you're there, but if you are there, give me a sign.” Well, one day right around my 25th birthday, I had a dream and in the dream, it's a long story. If you go to my website, it’s just my name, ericmetaxas.com, there's an I Am Second video.

Mark: Oh, I saw that. It's fantastic.

Eric: And in my Miracles book, I tell the story as well, but for our purposes here, I'll just say that in the dream Jesus made it super clear he's real, he knows me better than I know myself. I mean, he blew my mind. And when it was over, I was like, that's it, game over. I know Jesus is Lord. The Bible is true.

Mark: Like a Damascus.

Eric: It was. And from that day, I’m born again, I'm sold out.

Mark: Were your parents along for that ride?

Eric: My parents were not happy with this. They were not happy with the fanatical Eric Metaxas that they raised, no. Because look, imagine the arrogance of a 25-year-old son saying to his father who took him to Greek Orthodox Church every week, “I've become a Christian.” He'd be like, “You've become a Christian? What have we been? Buddhists, Muslims, atheists? Like we go to church every Sunday, remember?” So he was hurt and offended, and I was like, “Well, that's a dead religion,” you know, as young men can be, arrogant and testosterone-filled, and so I basically was not able to really square the circle at that time. And so for many, many years I think it was upsetting to my dad. It was like I rejected him and his background, and it's really not a good thing. And I think Christians, especially new Christians, need to be encouraged to shut up sometimes. You know, I think it was confusing for them and my whole family because I was, you know, even more fanatical than I am now in a sense, right, because it's just the zeal of a converted, yeah.

Andrew: Fresh and new.

Eric: And so it took years, I think, of them watching my life to see no, I'm not crazy. No, God has made a better person of me. But it took a long time. And my dad in particular, he's 90 now. He clearly gets it, and that's the joy of my life that the father that I love, he understands Jesus is his friend, he prays. But let this be a lesson to people. It can take a long time, and if you think you’re gonna argue somebody into the kingdom, you're a fool. Shut up, love 'em.

Mark: A baby's never been argued out of the womb.

Eric: There you go.

Andrew: Okay, so the conversion thing, though. This I think is really relatable to a lot of people who are thinking that what conversion means is this moment in time, this one experience, there's a flip, everything is reversed.

Eric: For some people, that's true.

Andrew: But you said your conversion experience was not something of suddenly feeling guilty about everything and changing.

Eric: No, no, no. I'm not kidding, and this is important, right, that when I came to faith, I wasn't like, oh, Jesus forgave me my sins or whatever. Absolutely not. That was not an issue for me. I wasn't walking around with a load of guilt. Now intellectually I got that. Intellectually, I understood that, but that's not what moved me. Now a lot of people say, “Well then, that's not a thorough conversion.” It is what it is. I mean, I had been a believer before I had that conversion. Maybe the Lord used this to close the deal and to make it clear who he is because my heart was inclined to him, but I didn't understand it. I mean, who knows? All I know is it's really bad when you create a paradigm and you insist that people buy into that paradigm because that way if you've always believed, you think like, “Well, I guess I gotta have a period of backsliding so I can come to faith, otherwise it's not authentic.” For me, I really had a heart for God as a teenager, and I was not discipled and I just drifted, but even when I was at Yale, I went to the Christian group on campus for a semester. I don't know what the heck I was thinking, but I went, and I was there, and I didn't like it, and I just kinda drifted away. And then next thing you know, four, five years have passed and I'm lost. I'm sleeping with my girlfriend. I don't know the meaning of life. I'm pretty sure you can’t know the meaning of life. That's how far I drifted. And so the Lord brought me back. Now was I hell-bound the day before that dream? I hope not, but I certainly may have been. I don't know. All I know is that after that dream I knew Jesus was Lord. I knew that I was a sinner that needed to have grace and love my enemies and on and on and on and on and that I'm under his judgment, that I need to care about what he thinks, not what other people think. You know, something happened to me overnight. It happened in a dream. I don't know anybody else to whom that kind of thing happened in a dream. Maybe that proves I'm a Muslim secretly. I don't know.

Andrew: Okay, I love quotes in general, and you're very quotable, which I'm very happy about. Okay, “It was as though I was a prince exiled from another kingdom, and whenever I saw hints of that other kingdom, I hoped to find the way back.”

Eric: I wrote that?

Andrew: You did.

Eric: Where?

Andrew: In Miracles.

Eric: Wow. Hey, that's not bad.

Andrew: It's beautiful, unless you were quoting someone else, and I quoted it as you.

Eric: No, no-no-no-no.

Andrew: It's an inborn longing is what I hear. I remember asking my dad as a 5-year-old, being like, “I feel foreign. I feel away from something.” And he was like, “You are.” You know, so this inborn longing, like I don't think we always like to… I think there's importance in being here now because we can bide our time, and I think this is already bringing God's kingdom as it is.

Eric: And that's quite right. The idea that when we go to heaven, God's kingdom starts. No, Jesus said, “It starts the minute you receive me. It starts here, and you are my ambassadors, and the kingdom expands from here,” which is why we need to serve the poor and the hungry and the downtrodden. We're meant to start here, but we don't get all the way there until he returns or we get to heaven. But yeah, this has been a big problem of evangelicalism, right, is that we make it really cerebral and really other-worldly, and it's all about salvation. And what that does is it leaves all of God's work to like the government or to leftist humanists who just say, “Well, we're doing this. We don't know why, but we're just doing this.” We're supposed to know why, we're supposed to--

Andrew: We have the motivation.

Eric: We're supposed to have the motivation, but I think that that’s what happened in the church is that there's this divide. Something happened, let's say in the 1920s right around the Scopes trial, is this cultural divide where some people said, “Well, we're just gonna do the good stuff,” and other people said, “We're just gonna believe the important stuff,” and they sort of drifted away from each other. That's a bummer because we are meant to be doing God's work here, which is one of the reasons ironically that I think Christian’s need to be political. It doesn't mean only political, but the point is that we need to be involved in the things of this world 'cause God is in this world 'cause human beings are suffering in this world. I mean, when I told people that I thought they should vote for Trump, it didn't mean, “Hey, I think Trump's awesome.” It meant that I made a calculation that if you care about that 8-year-old black kid in the project, you need to think in your head which president is gonna help him more. Now if you think there’s an easy answer to that, there's no easy answer, but don't pretend your faith can let you say, “I'm gonna sit this one out.” I think this world is dirty. We need to roll up our sleeves, It's kind of like Bonhoeffer. He would've preferred not to get involved in the plot to kill Hitler, but he said, “I don't think God's given me that option. I think that God's gonna judge me, did I try to figure it out. And I tried, and this was my solution. If I'm wrong, I cast myself on the mercy of God and say, 'Lord, please forgive me. I've led others astray, forgive me.’” But we've gotta try. Wilberforce was told by everyone, “Keep your faith private. Slavery has always been with us. It's a reality,” and he said, “No, I think God is calling me to get involved. Now my salvation is not in the slave issue, but my faith leads me to care about the suffering people,” and so I really think that that's an important part of real faith is living out our faith in every aspect to the best that we can.

“We need to be involved in the things of this world ‘cause God is in this world ‘cause human beings are suffering in this world.”

— Eric Metaxas

Mark: But it's almost become like, if you're not a Republican, you're not a Christian.

Eric: Well, isn't that true? What do you mean?

Mark: No, seriously. I mean, do you believe if Christ was here he would've been a Republican?

Eric: If Christ were here, I am sure he would've been a Whig.

Mark: A who?

Eric: A Whig.

Mark: Oh really?

Eric: No. I mean, I think you can’t... Christ be a Republican… I mean, there's no way he would be a Republican or Democrat.

Mark: These are two different kingdoms.

Andrew: Two paradigms?

Eric: But let me say this. Let me say this. We all have to make political calculations, but let's face it, both parties are darn flawed. Like there's no doubt about it. So anybody who says the Republican party is the solution or Trump is the solution, never, never! Then you're making an idol of politics. But I still do think we have to work it out.

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Andrew: Hey now, which includes mealtimes with Mark and me, private little concerts and chitchats with our friends, and a special Sunday morning service that will happen right before you head out of town.

Mark: And if you sponsor more than one child, you will have the opportunity to be a guest on an actual episode of Dinner Conversations during the Friends & Family Weekend in Nashville.

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Mark: All right, let me ask you this. You start to say in the book, and for our viewers I think this will be interesting, is you said you were gonna change some misconceptions about Luther. Give me some of those.

Eric: Well, there are a lot. And it's kind of funny, it's almost like a pass your first sermon. I found seven, right? And some of them are big, some of them are not. A lot of people believe, ‘cause you see things in retrospect, they believe that he was this reformer who was just hopped up to kill the pope from day one. Absolutely not true. He was a humble son of the church who loved his church, and when he nailed the 95 Theses to the door of the castle church, if he did, we think he did, whatever, but whenever that happened, he was trying to get a civil, think of the irony, trying to get a civil conversation going on the issue of indulgences, which he knew most people would agree like, yeah, there's problems here. But instead, and it's kinda like the climate we're in today, instead it's as if he tweeted something out and everybody went nuts, and we never got back to the actual conversation. He didn't get to say, “Oh, by the way, I made a mistake on that word.” It just went insane, and so basically, you have a situation where people think of him as a troublemaker. Now he did become a troublemaker, but that was really in response to what happened. In other words, he felt that he was so mistreated that he thought, “Am I dealing with antichrists? I mean, if I'm dealing with the church, they should be thanking me for trying to bring this stuff up.” I mean, I'm speaking after the manner of men. It's much more complicated, but it is interesting that things quickly spun out of control. But when he nailed the 95 Theses to the door, he really was not looking to start trouble. People act like this was the moment, like he's with the hammer, he's there, and it's like nothing of the kind. In fact, it was like a bulletin board, and if you did it with Scotch tape, it had all the effect of a guy going down to the laundry room to the bulletin board and putting up with Scotch tape, “We're gonna have a theological debate,” and he put it up there. It had all the drama of that, but it's portrayed in retrospect like this was the moment when he stood. Even the Diet of Worms, as brave as his stand was four years later, he was not there shaking his fist at anybody. He was hoping desperately that God could bring about peace. And so I think you're being told you have five minutes.

Andrew: Yes, I see.

Eric: Something like that. It was a metaphor. It was a hand, but I read it as a metaphor. So that's one, and then we don't even know, we're pretty sure he didn't nail the theses up on the date we say, number one. We don't even know that he did nail the theses up. He might've used paste or he might've given ‘em to the custodian, no joke, to post ‘em. We see that in retrospect. One of my favorite ones is the theory that the nine nuns that escaped from the Nimschen convent you hear over and over and over, every book on Luther says that they escaped in herring barrels, barrels that held herring, that they hid in them. I said, “Oh, that's so cool. I'm gonna put that in my book,” so I did all this research and I found not only do we not know whether it happened, we actually do know that it didn't happen. Totally didn't happen, but there's all kinds of stuff like that. I mean, we don't have time here, but there's some significant things and some little things. It's important to know what's true. And I say that in my own life today about whether we're arguing politics or whatever. Argue about what you know is true. Don't argue from your emotion or what you wanna believe. Let's try to get it right. And when you're writing biography, history, try to get it right. And so anybody who accuses me of putting myself into the book, I'm like, listen, dudes, I'm trying harder than anybody not to do that. If you think I did, what can I tell ya, but if you can show me I will change it 'cause I think that history and facts and reason are really important. What can I tell you?

Mark: Well, I appreciate it 'cause you put the cookies on the bottom shelf, and I like that.

Eric: That is so funny ‘cause so many people said, "Like I need a dictionary reading your book, Eric,” and you make it sound like I wrote a book for everybody, which was my goal.

Mark: Well, you did 'cause I'm everybody. I am. I'm not the smartest.

Eric: Thank you. That's been amply demonstrated in this conversation, honestly.

Mark: And I agree, that's no joke.

Eric: I appreciate that. I love people pretend to be all humble. This is a smart guy.

Andrew: Take this. We only go a couple minutes, but secret vocabulary of the heart, when you say that, do you believe that God is literally trying to reach us in that most intimate place?

Eric: Yeah, of course, that's the point. In other words, people kind of act like you're the gospel and that, it's like, no-no-no-no. We have a God that wants to translate the gospel, the good news that he loves you, in the most personal language imaginable. Imagine kissing your kid on the face, how much you love them! God says like, “No-no-no-no, it's a theory. It's a doctrine. Here it is. Have you heard it in English? Well then, good.” He wants to communicate it to us, so how will he communicate it to us? In a million ways. And since every child is different, God is the same, but he communicates differently to each one of us. To me, he communicated in a dream in a way that would've made no sense to anybody else.

Mark: And a New Yorker got a dream.

Eric: And a dadgum New Yorker.

Mark: And you're not Pentecostal, right?

Eric: Actually, I pray in tongues and I believe in the move. I believe in all that crazy stuff. You think, well, a sophisticated Yale graduate surely wouldn't believe in that stuff. I believe Jesus rose from the dead. I believe in tongues. I'm straight up Jesus freak on every level.

Mark: I am too.

Eric: Praise God. I really am. I am. I believe in healing, deliverance, all that crazy stuff, because it's true.

Mark: I've enjoyed this.

Eric: Well, me too.

Mark: What an honor this is. I'm serious.

Eric: I'm so glad I didn't take a bite, I would've missed something.

Mark: The kingdom of God and America or any other kingdom in this world, they’re two separate kingdoms. To live in the kingdom of God, you've gotta die. To get, you gotta give. To be first, you gotta be last. I heard a pastor say one time the kingdom of God is like backing up a trailer. Which ever way you think to go, do the opposite and you're probably right. So it's two separate kingdoms and I vote, but that's all I’m gonna tell you about how I think politically ‘cause it's none of your business and I think it clouds the waters. When you're trying to tell 'em about Jesus, I think it clouds the waters.

Andrew: Right, if Jesus is the main point, which in my life he has been the main point, and it's who I want to be, my focus, my focal point, so I feel like it's just such an easy distraction to get into the game of whether it be politics or whether it be any hot topic in culture. These are important conversation. As you know, we love hard conversations here at Dinner Conversations, but the main focus of any conversation, the foundation of the reason we even sit at the same table and talk together, sometimes we disagree on certain things.

Mark: Oh yeah, gosh.

Andrew: But it's Jesus. What I always love to say is he sets the table for communion. We just all get invited to it. And everyone is invited. So I love how Eric has expressed that through his story of spirituality.

Mark: Let everybody get next to Jesus, and he'll fix what's broken in all of us.

Andrew: So thank you so much to our new friend, Eric Metaxas. We have loved having him on this episode of Dinner Conversations.

Mark: And we love you joining us every episode. We'll see you next time on Dinner Conversations. Well, we wanna thank Eric Metaxas for giving us his opinion today.

Andrew: That's right. You can find his books in the Amazon affiliate link in the episode description below.

Mark: And if you wanna binge watch Dinner Conversations, you can do that right now.

Andrew: You really should.

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Watch Our Other Episodes:

S03, E02: Perfectly Imperfect featuring Wynonna Judd

S03, E03: Surviving Miscarriage featuring Jason Crabb and Sonya Isaacs

S03, E05: A New Normal featuring Jaci Velasquez and Nic Gonzales

S03, E06: Suicide: Hiding in Plain Sight featuring Mark Means and Wes Hampton

S03, E07: Personality by Number featuring Ian Morgan Cron and Lisa Whelchel

4/13/20 4/13/20

Finding Beauty in Brokenness featuring Julie Roberts

Gold-selling country music artist Julie Roberts chronicles her real life drama of tragedy and triumph — including a life-changing Multiple Sclerosis diagnosis while in her twenties — and the lessons of hope she has learned along the storied way.

Gold-selling country music artist Julie Roberts chronicles her real life drama of tragedy and triumph — including a life-changing Multiple Sclerosis diagnosis while in her twenties — and the lessons of hope she has learned along the storied way. Don't miss a single episode of Dinner Conversations — subscribe below!

Transcript

Mark: Dinner Conversations is. brought to you by ChildFund, a community development organization that has been envisioning a world where every child is free to live at their fullest potential no matter where they're from or what challenges they face since 1938.

Andrew: Partner with us and our good friends at ChildFund to change the world and the life of a child by considering sponsoring a child today.

Mark: It really does take so little to make a difference.

Andrew: Visit childfund.org/dinnerconversations.

Mark: A child is waiting.

Mark: Well, you're the one who came up with Julie Roberts. I had not heard of her 'cause, ya know, I don't listen to music. But she was a huge artist for a moment.

Andrew: That's right. She did. She had a very substantial country recording career, gold records, and on some of the biggest stages. And then her life took a turn through a diagnosis with--

Mark: MS.

Andrew: Yeah, and she was only in her 20s. A couple of other things, her career floundering, the loss of her home in the Nashville flood. There's a lot to her story. And we're really just gonna let her tell her story.

Mark: Yeah, it was wonderful. And there's one seat left at the table, and it's yours! Let's join the conversation.

Andrew: You all just met today.

Mark: I just met you today, and I wanna say, what a treat. You are a breath of sunshine. You're not only pretty, but you glow. You got a spirit about you that's really nice.

Andrew: Radiant.

Mark: Yes, radiant.

Julie: Thank you. And so do y'all.

Mark: Thanks.

Julie: It's nice to meet y'all.

Mark: Nice to meet you. I love your husband, Matt, who I've known for years.

Julie: And he loves you.

Mark: Well, he should. I'm worth loving!

Julie: He should!

Mark: And I should love him, right?

Julie: Yes.

Mark: Okay, so anyway, back to you. Let's tell... For anyone who’s meeting you for the first time, like I did today, take us back to, tell us your story that led you to this table. You had a big country career. Why don't we start there? Or if you even wanna go back further, you can go wherever you wanna start.

Julie: Okay.

Andrew: Did you always wanna do music? Or is that--

Mark: Wait, wait. My question is the question.

Andrew: Oh, I'm sorry, sorry.

Mark: See, he's always got these good questions, and when I finally have a good one, he wants to interrupt with one that's better.

Julie: No, but--

Andrew: This is the longest he's...

Julie: That's awesome.

Mark: Oh honey, I'm playin'.

Julie: So I grew up, and we talked about this earlier today, I grew up lovin' country music that mama listened to. And I grew up in a home with domestic violence. And so I have two sisters, and mama would take us out of our home in the middle of the night and we'd drive to mawmaw's house in this small town. It was like 10 minutes to mawmaw’s. And at mawmaw's house, it was a happy home. And we would watch the Mandrell Sisters show.

Mark: Barbara Mandrell and The Sisters.

Julie: Yes, exactly. Hee Haw, Carol Burnett. We'd laugh, and then mawmaw made everything fried. And so we ate good. It was just a happy place. But mama drove a Ford F150 truck too. So this was before seat belt laws, so we'd stand in the truck. And she'd turn the country music up, and we sing all the way there, and it was like our escape. And so we get to mawmaw's house, and mama was the first person to teach us about faith. And after we would watch the shows and eat everything fried, fried okra, fried squash, fried chicken.

Mark: Yum, love mawmaw.

Julie: And mawmaw's still in Lancaster.

Mark: Is she?

Julie: Yes. And she would pray with each of my sisters and me. Each of us individually, and it would be the prayer you've all heard of, "Now I lay me down to sleep.” And it was my turn. And I said this same prayer for so many years, and it was, "Now I lay me down to sleep.” And at the end I'd say, “God, please give me a record deal."

Mark: Are you serious? As a little girl.

Julie: A little girl. “And make me a singer like Barbara Mandrell so I can buy mama a happy home.” And so I prayed that prayer from the time I was a little girl till those things began to come in my life. So that's how I began to love country music was really mama. And so I really wanted to be Barbara Mandrell. So I knew to be Barbara Mandrell, I had to move to Nashville.

Mark: Right.

Julie: But mama said, “You need to go to college.” I said, "I don't have to go to college to be Barbara Mandrell.” She said, "Yeah, you do.” And I said, “Okay." So I went to the University of South Carolina for two years. And then I learned about an artist I love, Trisha Yearwood, and that she went to Belmont University. And they had a music business program. And so I signed up to get as many scholarships as I could. And the only scholarship I got, and I studied so hard at University of South Carolina. But I got the Vince Gill scholarship to come to Belmont. And so I finished at Belmont in Music Business.

Andrew: So music, I mean, was that, when I think about you going to mawmaw's house, I wonder if one of the reasons you loved music so much was it was this kind of, not only was it an escape, but it kind of soundtracked hope.

Julie: It was, and it was fun.

Andrew: It was a safe place.

Julie: It was a safe place. Mama would even sing to the radio. I mean, we would sing so loud, and it was like everything else in our life was not there. It was music, and it was that radio, or it was TV.

Mark: And your father was abusive.

Julie: An abusive alcoholic. So yes, definitely, that was my introduction, and it's also why I love sad country songs. 'Cause people always say, "Julie, you smile all the time.” And I do. I love to smile. I'm a happy person. But I love Patsy Cline, and I love Tammy Wynette, and I love to hear that cry in their voice when I hear them sing.

Andrew: Do you feel like that gave you an outlet for your tears?

Julie: It actually did. It was definitely my escape, you know. Just sitting there pretending to be somebody else. When I would pretend to be Barbara Mandrell, I wasn't Julie, the little girl that lived in this house. And so when I would step on stage, 'cause mama and mawmaw started signing me up for these talent things.

Mark: Oh, yeah?

Julie: And I was scared of everybody. Everybody! Like if they'd go take me to a restaurant, Ryan's, we'd always go to eat y’all. Y'all remember Ryan's?

Mark: Oh, yes, yeah.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah.

Mark: I do!

Andrew: If you go early, you get the lunch pricing and just stay till they bring dinner out.

Julie: So we'd go to Ryan’s and mama would say, "Now speak to me. Don’t speak to her. She'll cry.” Because I was afraid of, I was afraid of everybody. And I think it's because of my home as a child. And they'd speak to me, and we'd have to leave the restaurant. But when I would get on stage, it was like my comfort zone. And the first time I sang onstage was "Rocky Top.” And I burped in the middle of the song because I ate mawmaw's fried squash.

Andrew: Right beforehand?

Julie: Yes!

Andrew: See!

Julie: Big lesson early in life.

Mark: Tell me about that first time. Were you nervous the first time? Or were you at home?

Julie: You know, they didn’t think I'd walk out on stage. And I tapped my foot, which I still do, always just kinda kept me comfortable. And I sing kinda behind the beat.

Andrew: And that's the way I'm like, waitin' for everything else to happen? Join in the party?

Julie: Yes! But, you know, I think that that's where I actually felt safe.

Mark: And you get a degree. And then after you get this degree, what happens?

Julie: So I was interning for Mercury Records. And when I graduated, they said, "Julie, do you wanna be the receptionist?” And I said, "Well, sure.” 'Cause I had school loans. And then I knew when I graduated, I'd have to pay rent and a car payment. And so I became the receptionist at Mercury Records. And that's not what I prayed for. I prayed, I said, "God, I don't wanna answer phones. I wanna be Barbara Mandrell!"

Mark: Right. I love that you were so specific. Lord, we're gonna do this now.

Julie: Yes!

Mark: We're not gonna have none o this answering phones stuff.

Julie: But I did it! And I did it for two and a half years. And I had a lot of idle time. When the phone's not ringing and you're not saying, “Mercury Records, this is Julie,” I was just sitting there, and mama was still back in South Carolina. And so I started making out a resume for her 'cause I wanted her to move here with me. And I'd made up the cover letter. I pretended I was mama. I said I'm lookin' to relocate to Nashville. This is what I do. And I helped her get a job at a mattress factory in Nashville here. And she still works there.

Mark: Wow.

Andrew: Wow.

Julie: And it was the first time in my life. So she moved three years after I did, and it was the first time in my life that I had seen, ever seen mama really smile.

Mark: Really?

Julie: She started to wear makeup. She died her hair blonde. She became a new person.

Mark: What was making her not be like that there? Was she still married to your father?

Julie: Yeah.

Mark: Okay, so she left him?

Julie: Yeah.

Mark: Finally. And got free, and--

Julie: Started her life over at 50. She put everything--

Mark: Let me ask you this. Let me interrupt right here. For anybody who might be watching who's in that kinda situation with little girls, when is it the right time to say, okay, I've been abused enough? When is the right time?

Julie: You know, I think it's so personal. For mama, I begged her my whole life. And I would, even when I lived at home and I was working, I would work in theme park shows during the summer, and I would, when I'd get off work, I would go buy things like dishes that would be in our home one day. And I'd hide 'em from my dad. And so I told her back then, ya know, when I was little, I said, "Mama, let's leave.” But we were from a small town, and she didn't want my younger sister, who was still in high school, to have to answer, why aren’t you living with your parents?

Mark: But she blossomed when she got here.

Julie: Yeah, so my younger sister graduated, and then mama was ready to come. And she started her life over. And then, she didn't have a F150. She had Ford Escort.

Andrew: That's a change.

Julie: And so we nicknamed it Gray Lightning 'cause it didn't go very fast. And she put everything she had and she moved here. And we got an apartment, and that was our first happy home.

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Mark: Dinner Conversations is brought to you by ChildFund, a community development organization that has been envisioning a world where every child is free to live at their fullest potential no matter where they're from or what challenges they face, and they've been doing this since 1938. ChildFund's mission is to help bring positive and lasting change to communities around the world by removing the barriers that keep children from realizing and reaching their dreams.

Mark: Today, it is the support from sponsors like you that allows ChildFund to focus on the children and build lasting relationships with the communities, like the ones we visited in Guatemala. ChildFund strives to help provide communities with critical necessities, including education, clean drinking water, food and nutrition, basic healthcare, and hygiene, and helping children and parents alike know and understand their basic human rights.

Andrew: We believe everyone of us have been created unique with value on purpose and in love by God. We have been created in the image of God. The children we met in Guatemala are image-bearers of our Creator. Think about that! And I believe to love God best, we must learn to love our neighbors even better. Our neighbors like these children in Guatemala. ChildFund is giving us that unique opportunity, all of us, you guys and us, to serve God by loving these children through sponsoring a child today.

Andrew: Your child sponsorship of $36 a month will immediately link you with a child that you can write letters back and for with, correspond, send pictures of you and your family, even potentially visit one day.

Andrew: Yes! Plus, a special item made just for you by the communities in Guatemala.

Mark: And every sponsor and a guest is invited to a Dinner Conversations Friends & Family Weekend in Nashville.

Andrew: Hey, now! Which includes mealtimes with Mark and me, private little concerts and chitchats with our friends, and a special Sunday morning service that will happen right before you head out of town.

Mark: And if you sponsor more than one child, you will have the opportunity to be a guest on an actual episode of Dinner Conversations during the Friends & Family Weekend in Nashville.

Andrew: Does it get better than that?

Mark: No.

Andrew: Does it, Mark? Does it? Stayed tuned for exact details. And don't forget to visit childfund.org/dinnerconversations to sponsor your child today.

Andrew: And you blossomed, too, at that time, if you think about Receptionist Julie. But two and a half years later, you landed a record deal.

Mark: How'd that happen?

Andrew: Yeah, I mean that's fascinating.

Julie: Okay, so I was still answering phones, you know. And then, the head of Mercury, Luke Lewis, came to me and he said, "I like the way you answer phones.” And he said, "Will you be my assistant? But if you're a singer, don't tell me 'cause I don't want a singer answering my phones.” I said, “Okay." "You'll get a pay raise.” I said, “Okay." So then I started answering Luke's phones for another year and a half. But at night, I had formed a band in college, and at night, I was playing when I'd get off of work, playing at anywhere you could get a gig. It's hard to get a gig. So we'd play in coffee houses. We even played at a laundromat, Harvey Washbanger’s. Harvey, they had never had anybody there, and they said, "If you get too loud, and you hear the dryer go off, you need to say, 'Dryer number three, your clothes are ready.'"

Mark: That is fantastic!

Julie: We played there all the time.

Mark: Really? And people'd come, and they’d say, "If you're gonna be at the laundromat tonight, let's go!"

Julie: Listen, no. It was just people doing their laundry. So we'd always have a crowd.

Mark: A built-in crowd.

Julie: That's right. So we would play anywhere we could like that. And my guitar player was a receptionist at a publishing company across town. And he'd been my guitar player through college, Belmont. At his office, producers would come in, and he saw Brent Rowan one day. He said, "Hey Brent, I'm playin' with this girl at the laundromat. Why don't you come and hear her sing?” And he said, "I'm not going to a laundromat to hear somebody sing.” He said, "Do you have a CD or somethin' I can hear?” And we actually had made a CD in a class at Belmont. So he said, "Yeah, here ya go.” And then he told Brent that it was Luke Lewis' assistant. So Brent calls me, and he said, "Hey, I heard your stuff. Can you put the laundromat gigs on hold awhile? And let's record at night. Just guitar vocals.” 'Cause he's a brilliant guitar player. And, I said, “Okay." And so we started recording, and we spent a lot of time. I would go to the Blue Bird, listen for songs. That's actually where I heard "Break Down Here.” And that was mama's story, ya know, every part of that. I didn't want her to break down and turn around and go back. And the lyrics to that song are about mama. Even there's a line in "Break Down Here,” it says, "I'm out of cigarettes, and I'm down to may last drag.” And mama used to smoke Doral Lights, and when I heard that song, I could see her ridin' down 40 to Nashville with her Doral Lights. But she ended up quitting. She said, "If you get a record deal, I'll quit smoking.” And so she ended up quitting smokin’. But, ya know, sorry.

Andrew: Well, you're gonna end up quittin' smokin' here, sista.

Mark: So you get a record deal.

Julie: So I started recording with Brent. And he said, "I'm gonna start takin' it to every label in town.” Just guitar vocals. And he did. He went to every label in town. And they all said, "She's too bluesy. She's too soulful.” They wanted more pop country. And so we kept workin' and he said, "I believe in you. Somebody'll get it.” And finally he said, "Julie, I wanna take it to Luke, your boss.” And I said, "No, you'll get me fired. I'm not supposed to be a singer.” He said, "I know. Just get me on his calendar.” So I prayed, and I went to my boss, Luke. And I said, "Hey, Luke, Brent Rowan is working with a new artist in town. And he'd like a meeting with you.” And my boss, Luke, never said, "Who's the artist? Is it a guy or a girl?” And so I knew that was God. Looking back now, that was God working on my behalf.

Mark: He just said, "Okay"?

Julie: He said, "Okay, find a spot.” And so the day came, and Brent came into my boss' office, and Luke always listened to his music really loud, which I loved. I loved hearing music as I answered his phones. But I could hear me playing through the wall, just me and the guitar. And he stopped and started the CD a few times. And then Brent left, and he said, "Call me when you get off.” And then my boss left, and he said, "I'll see you tomorrow.” So I called Brent as soon as I could. And he said, "He stopped the CD the first time, and he said, 'Who's this girl? I wanna meet her.’" He said, "She's your assistant. She's right outside your office."

Andrew: Hello!

Mark: Then what happened?

Julie: And then Luke said a lot of things that I can't say at this table!

Mark: Was he upset? Was he upset?

Julie: Well, he was shocked, number one.

Mark: But he signed you.

Julie: Well. He didn't know what to do. And he basically said, "She's not supposed to be a singer. I don't know what to do,” but in his words. So it took him... I knew he liked it, but it took him a few days, and he finally came and stood in front of my desk, and he said, "I heard your stuff, and I like it.” And he said, "I'm gonna play it for the rest of Mercury Records and not tell 'em it's you, exactly how it was played for me. And if they say they like it and then they want to sign it, then I'll tell 'em it's you."

Mark: Wow!

Julie: And so it took a little while still. And he finally came back to me, and he said, "I need a new assistant that definitely does not sing.” And that's how my record deal came into my life. And I thought that that was all I wanted, was this piece of paper.

Mark: You finally are on your way to becoming Barbara Mandrell.

Julie: Barbara Mandrell.

Mark: And then what happened?

Julie: And then life was great. I put out a record, went gold, did the theme song for Good Morning America a few years. I got to do The Tonight Show. I got to be on a bus. I started gettin' my hair done where Barbara Mandrell gets her hair done!

Mark: No way. Are you serious?

Julie: By the same guy!

Mark: How did you get that worked out?

Andrew: She's a stalker. Stalkers do it.

Julie: That's right, that's right!

Mark: Yeah, that's great!

Julie: No, I figured it out.

Mark: You said whoever did her hair has gotta do mine.

Julie: Yes! And she still goes there. We both still go there.

Mark: Have you met her?

Julie: Yes. She actually wrote... She read my book, and she wrote a note in the front of my book.

Mark: Okay, so take your time. We want y'all to just sit back. You're gonna love this story. We're not half done.

Julie: That's right.

Mark: You think, okay, we’re meetin' a country singer. Just buckle up and hold on.

Julie: That's right. Okay, so I was doin' what I always wanted to do, be on the road singin’. And, ya know, I was playin' shows every night. I told my booking agent, I said, "Keep me on the road. I only wanna come home to get my roots done."

Mark: I love you! I mean, I can almost remember those days when I would tell them the same thing, I just wanna come home to get my roots done.

Julie: See!

Andrew: Actually, that's still in the contract.

Mark: So anyway.

Julie: So they kept me busy. And I would have to come home. So soon as you release a record, you have to go ahead and start working on your next one. And my second album was called Men and Mascara. And the line is, “Men and mascara always run."

Mark: Always run, that's good. Did you write that?

Julie: No.

Mark: That's clever.

Julie: But I've lived it a lot.

Mark: You have? You got the best laugh. Gosh, I love your laugh. Okay, so well, that's another episode of all your men. We'll have to line them up.

Julie: Yeah, line… So I only came home to work on that song, record that song or what was on that record, and get my roots done. And so it was 2005. I'll never forget it. I was playin' a show in Asheville, North Carolina. And by this time, people knew my songs. They'd been on the radio. And so at this club, it was a club--

Mark: Your dream was comin' true, wasn't it?

Julie: It was comin' true. And my fans were there singing. I could hear 'em singin' back to me. In the middle of my show, my vision went blurry, and I couldn't see their faces anymore. I loved to make eye contact, and I couldn't see them anymore. And then I'm right-handed, so I hold my microphone with my right hand. In the middle of my show, my had went numb and weak, and I couldn't hold my microphone anymore. So I switched it to my left hand, and the same thing happened. I couldn't hold my microphone. But thankfully, there was a stand on stage, a microphone stand, and I was able to put my microphone in the stand. And I stood there and finished the show. And I always sign after my shows. I love to do meet and greets. And I still couldn't see. But sittin' at that desk, I had practiced my autograph all those years, so I was able to hold a Sharpie and sign my name without seein' it.

Mark: And you never told anyone yet?

Julie: No. I didn't tell anybody. Except when I got back on the bus, I called mama. And mama's been my other half, until recent, till I got married. She'll always be my other half. And I called her, and she said, "You're comin' home tomorrow to record, and you need to go straight to the doctor.” And so I came home and went straight to my regular doctor, who sent me to a neurologist. I learned I was claustrophobic 'cause I had an MRI. And they did a spinal tap and some other tests. And he said, "I'll call you.” I said, “Okay." And so I was singin' "Men and Mascara.” And when I listen to that song on my record, I think back to that day. And my phone rang, and I knew it was his number, my neurologist's number. And I didn't answer it. I said, "I wanna keep singin’." But when I had a break, I called mama. I said, "Hey mama, can you call him, and I'll call you when I'm done.” Mama said, "Okay."

Mark: Okay, so it was in the middle of your concert. I got it.

Julie: It was in the middle of recording.

Andrew: At the studio.

Mark: Oh, studio. I got it.

Julie: So I called Mama. I remember exactly where I was. 'Cause the studio that we were workin' at was in south of Franklin. And so I was drivin' 65 North to our townhouse, and I called mama and I said, "What did he say?” And she said, "Why don't you pull over? I wanna come pick you up and drive you home?” And I said, "I'm good, mama. Just tell me." And she said, "Well, you don't have.” And I know she'd gone on the internet. She said, "You don't have,” and she had a list of things that she thought sounded worse than what they told her. I said, "Okay, what do I have?” She said, "You have MS. I'll come pick you up. Pull over.” And I said, "That's okay. I'll be home in a little bit.” And so I was drivin' to our townhouse, and the whole way there, I thought about a lady. When I was in South Carolina growing up, I used to sing in nursing homes every Saturday, and there was a young lady in one of the nursing homes. People always say, "Julie, how old are you?” And I say, "30 several plus a couple.” So this lady was in her 30s. And as a little girl, she looks very different from the other residents there. And I would ask... Her name was Carol, and I would say, "Why is Carol in the nursing home? She's so young.” And Carol would always ask me to sing "Peace in the Valley" for her. And I just connected to her. And finally, probably after I'd aggravated them so much, they said, "Carol has MS and doesn't have a caretaker.” So I had the picture of Carol in my mind the whole drive home, and I knew then why God introduced me to her. And I thought, okay, well my music helped Carol. Maybe I'm supposed to have, maybe I'm supposed to do something else, like help people now like me 'cause I'm like Carol. So I got home. And I'm tryin' not to cry. But I pull up to our townhouse, and we don't have a garage. It's a carport. And, um, you're gonna make me cry!

Mark: Why?

Julie: I don't know!

Mark: I'm listenin', honey.

Andrew: It's a common effect.

Mark: You're okay. Go ahead and tell us.

Julie: Oh yeah, I'm good. I'm passed all this.

Mark: Bless your heart. So you pulled up.

Julie: Okay, pull up. And so my younger sister had moved to Nashville, too. She'd gotten her new start, too. So we were all livin' together, and we had four dogs. I love dogs.

Mark: I do too, honey.

Julie: Listen, I just rescued another one. So they were all waitin’ on the patio for me, and I opened the gate, and mama and my sister, Laurie, were crying. And I said, "Why are y'all crying?” And mama said, "Why aren't you?” 'Cause I wasn’t. And I said, "I just keep thinkin' about Carol.” And mama knew who Carol was. And I said, "I know why I met her.” I said, "But I don't know what God wants me to do with my life now 'cause this is all I've ever wanted to do was to sing country music.” So in my mind, because Carol had MS before there were any disease-modifying therapies. So she was in a wheelchair, and she couldn't use her hands. And I thought that that was what my life would look like pretty soon. So the next day, I went to my neurologist. He gave me tons of literature on MS. And he told me about the available therapies at the time, and I said, "Okay, thank you.” And I took the literature. I never read it. I put it in a drawer, and I got back on the road. And just like when we were little, and we never talked about what happened in our home, we hid everything. I said, and mama, we both said, "If we don't say it out loud, maybe it'll go away.” And I was afraid to tell the music industry, too. I'd just started, things were going great, and I was afraid they would think I couldn't sing or I couldn't tour. So I kept it to me. The only people that knew were my neurologist, mama, my sister, and my dogs.

Mark: But did you go on the medicine?

Julie: No, I didn't read anything.

Mark: So did your mama even push you to do that?

Julie: Nope. We both thought it would go away.

Andrew: Was that like an inborn fear of being broken or seen as broken?

Julie: Oh, yeah. And when I look back--

Mark: Did you think the Lord would heal you, or were you really thinkin' if you ignore it, it won't be there?

Julie: No, I thought if I said it out loud and told anybody, it meant I was accepting it and that I had it. And I thought if I didn't accept it, that it would go away. And I got back on the bus, I released Men and Mascara. And then in 2009, Lifetime… Y'all watch movies on Lifetime? I bet you do every night.

Mark: Well. I've heard they're on there.

Julie: They wanted to make a movie about this girl, me, that got this record deal from a guy that she worked for. And they knew also how country music saved mama and me, and they wanted to make it for other women to help ‘em, and dreamers, too. And so they said, “Will you move to Los Angeles? You'd have to take a year off of music.” And I said, "Okay, I’ll move to Los Angeles.” So I moved out there, and I started working with Tom Rickman, who wrote "Coal Miner's Daughter."

Mark: Oh, wow.

Andrew: Oh, love it.

Julie: And started taking acting classes and was there for a whole year, and I loved it. I rescued another dog.

Mark: Oh, yeah?

Julie: Yes. And at the end of 2009, the heads of Lifetime changed, personnel changed, and they said, "Your movie is on hold.” And I said, "What's on hold mean?” I know what on hold means in Nashville.

Andrew: Oh, yeah yeah.

Julie: And they said, “It means it could be 10 years before your movie's made.” And I said, “Okay." So I moved back to Nashville the end of 2009, and I started writing and recording some songs. And by the beginning of 2010, like around April, I was ready to meet with Luke, my old boss, and play him this music ‘cause I wanted a new record out and I wanted to get back on the road. So I went in and he said, "Before you play me any music,” he said, "tell me what’s going on with the movie.” I said, "It's on hold.” And he said, "Well, your career here is on hold, too.” And that, honestly, was harder than hearing my mom tell me I had MS. Because all I ever wanted was that record deal and to sing. And just a few days later, May 1, 2010, the same exact week, the 1,000 year flood came through Nashville, Tennessee. And people lost their lives in that flood. And that morning at 8 a.m., someone started knocking on our townhouse door and told us to get out, that the water was rising. And I was like, what water? Because I was never home. I didn't know I lived near water.

Mark: Right?

Julie: They said, "The Harpeth River's rising. And your cars are floating away.” Well, I'd just paid off my car, and I'd just paid off mama's car. And I said, "Mama, I just paid off those cars.” So she tried to go out and save the car. The car ended up floating away. And so the water rose really fast in our townhouse, and we had to go up to the second level. And we were there for like six hours and were rescued by boat eventually. And so we lost everything.

Mark: So you lost your health. You've lost your home. You've lost your career.

Andrew: Your dream, essentially. Back to back blows. What was the aftermath of that for you just personally? Your psyche, your emotions? That's a lot!

Julie: I think you just kinda have to keep moving, you know. And so when we were able to go back to our townhouse, nobody had flood insurance. 'Cause it never floods here. So we had to pull up our carpet. And when I was tryin’ to pull up my carpet, I couldn't use my hands again. And this had been five years since my initial diagnosis. And so mama saw that 'cause she was there too, and she said, "You need to go back to your neurologist. It didn't go away.” I know now why I had to live through that and lose everything 'cause I thought that was what was important, and what was really important was I was saved by that boat. But as God had another purpose for me, and it was to sing, but it was also to help people like Carol. When I was saved and I went back to my neurologist, I said, "I was saved. I was rescued by a boat,” I said, "But my symptoms are back. Now I wanna save me from me."

Mark: Oh, wow, wow, wow!

Julie: And I said, "Oh, and by the way, I didn't read anything you gave me. It's floatin' in the Harpeth River."

Andrew: Hand it back.

Mark: I might need another copy.

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Mark: Oh, yes. Well, you know you get that after every episode. And what about this mug with our faces on it?

Andrew: What says good morning better?

Mark: It's like we're on both sides, so now lefty or a righty, you get to see us every morning.

Andrew: You know, I think it's time we get back to those guests.

Mark: Yeah, probably.

Andrew: What that says to me, and I think we've all been at some place in life, or will be again, or will be for the first time, of our whole identity, our whole self, being wrapped up in what we do more than who we are. And I think that speaks to a lot of people because when you get to the end of that, if what I do equals who I am and then what I do goes away, even if temporarily. You know, they say you don’t have a career here anymore. Oh wait, that career also bought us a happy home. That's gone. All these things go away, my health, my physicality. How did you find... Like what happened to your identity at that point in time? When it's all wrapped up in this and all of it's gone.

Julie: It was really tough ‘cause I, even as a little girl singin' in South Carolina, and people said, "Oh, that's Julie. She's the singer." So that was hard. I had to really find who I am here, ya know. And I really had to dig deep and see if there was another purpose in my life. And I asked God, I said, "God, what do you want me to do now? You've gotta show me because all you've ever shown me was this, was music."

Mark: It kinda sounds to me like all you ever showed him was music, like I'm gonna be Barbara Mandrell. And I hope you go along with it.

Julie: And he did. He was losin' it!

Mark: And he did! He let you have your dream, and then it's gone.

Julie: It's gone. But I really was, that day in my neurologist's office when I said I'm ready to take care of me, because I think I was saved for a reason. That was a big step for me because everything was gone, but I still had my life, ya know.

Mark: What year was that?

Julie: 2010.

Mark: So it's been eight years.

Andrew: So in that eight years, I've seen advocacy for MS. Like you really have shifted. Music has started to come into play, but even with this book and telling your story, that you've started to allow your story it seems like to be the impetus for your life, for your stage, for your platform, for what you have to share rather than just a song.

Julie: Right. 'Cause I wasn't scared anymore to tell the world I had MS. And I just wasn't scared to admit to myself I had it. And then I started to learn more about MS. I wanted to. I got involved. I learned about the National MS Society, and I would sign up for a walk. And I would learn what they did. And then somebody asked me one day if I would be interested in speaking at a benefit for the National MS Society. And from that point, I started really doin' that more than singing.

Mark: Wow.

Julie: And when I stand in front of a room of other people living with MS, and especially newly-diagnosed people who are in the same place that I was, who were afraid and didn't know that they'd be able to continue their dreams. I'm more fulfilled than I ever was dropping off a song at a radio station hoping they'd play it. And so it took me all of that to figure out that I could do other things and that God really introduced me to Carol for a reason and had this purpose for me.

Andrew: I feel like this whole story, this whole journey of yours, leads into that title of this, Finding Beauty in Brokenness. It seems like at one point, growing up with this broken family, or father, and then maybe associating that MS or that illness with brokenness, don’t wanna be broken-hearted, shut it away. And finally discovering that, actually, they're beautiful things. Right?

Julie: Totally.

Mark: You wouldn't wish it, but would you have missed it? I mean, I'm wondering... I mean, it's kinda what day you ask me. Would I change it? How about you?

Julie: I think if you ask me, not I think, I know if you'd ask me any day, I wouldn't change it. At all. Because as I said just a minute ago, if I know that I'm helping one person to save them from themselves--

Julie Roberts singing “The Song Goes With Me”

Lately I've been wonderin'
If I should even be here
Seems everything you're showin' me
That I don't belong
But still I've got the story
And this broken heart of gold
Memories and melodies
And I've got this song
And the song goes with me

When the lights go down
It's my true companion
At the edge of this town
You can leave me stranded
Strike a bargain for my soul
But the song goes with me
When I go

Heard it as a baby
Rockin' me fast asleep
Gentle as a morning rain
Woke me from my young girl's dreams
It took me to the honky-tonks
To bring my stumblin' daddy home
He sang Haggard from the back seat drunk
And I sang along
And the song goes with me

Where the lights go down
It's my true companion
At the edge of this town
You can leave me stranded
Strike a bargain for my soul
But the song goes with me
When I go

I know where I'm headed when I go
There'll be a whole lot a singin' in heaven
You can leave me stranded
Strike a bargain for my soul
But the song goes with me
Yeah, the song goes with me
Yeah, the song goes with me
When I go

Mark: Oh, I love a country song. And Julie Roberts, thank you for being with us.

Andrew: You liked Julie. I could tell she's one of your favorites.

Mark: Oh, she's beautiful! Sweet girl.

Andrew: She is absolutely. You can find her music in our Amazon affiliate link in the episode description below.

Mark: And if you'd like to binge watch Dinner Conversations, you can do that right now on Amazon Prime. Dinner Conversations is brought by ChildFund, a community development organization that has been envisioning a world where every child is free to live at their fullest potential no matter where they're from or what challenges they face since 1938.

Andrew: Partner with us and our good friends at ChildFund to change the world and the life of a child by considering sponsoring a child today.

Mark: It really does take so little to make a difference.

Andrew: Visit childfund.org/dinnerconversations.

Mark: A child is waiting.

Learn more here: childfund.org/dinnerconversations.

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Watch Our Other Episodes:

S03, E02: Perfectly Imperfect featuring Wynonna Judd

S03, E03: Surviving Miscarriage featuring Jason Crabb and Sonya Isaacs

S03, E05: A New Normal featuring Jaci Velasquez and Nic Gonzales

S03, E06: Suicide: Hiding in Plain Sight featuring Mark Means and Wes Hampton

S03, E07: Personality by Number featuring Ian Morgan Cron and Lisa Whelchel

S03, E08: An Intellectual Faith featuring Eric Metaxas

4/6/20 4/6/20

Family Matters featuring Lynda Randle and Michael Tait

Sibling singers Lynda Randle and Michael Tait of Newsboys fame dish on hot topics like family dynamics, race relations and the unifying power of music. Musical artist Jon Reddick expounds on the conversation.

Sibling singers Lynda Randle and Michael Tait of Newsboys fame dish on hot topics like family dynamics, race relations and the unifying power of music. Musical artist Jon Reddick expounds on the conversation. Don't miss a single episode of Dinner Conversations — subscribe below!

Transcript

Andrew: Partner with us and our good friends at ChildFund to change the world and the life of a child by considering sponsoring a child today.

Mark: It really does take so little to make a difference.

Andrew: Visit childfund.org/dinnercoversations.

Mark: A child is waiting.

Mark: Well, today's conversation is interesting. It's about siblings, the love and the rivalry, being a preacher's kid, that extra added pressure of.

Andrew: Weight.

Mark: You know, you're not just a kid, you're my kid, you represent me, the pastor.

Andrew: Right.

Mark: It's Michael Tait and Lynda Randle.

Andrew: Tait.

Mark: Randle.

Andrew: Oh, that's right ‘cause that's her maiden name.

Mark: Yeah, 'cause they're siblings.

Andrew: And some people still don't even know they're siblings.

Mark: Yeah.

Andrew: We were talking today with Shelley Breen where we filmed this, and she was like, "Lynda Randle is Michael Tait’s...?" Of course, I think they look the same with different hair.

Mark: They do, they do. And you're gonna love this talk. There's one seat left at the table and it's yours, so let’s join the conversation.

Andrew: First question a lot of people have, well, they don't even know you're brother and sister. Like we were… Look at y’all and look at each other.

Michael: They don't know.

Andrew: I know.

Mark: Who knew?

Andrew: We're in, you know, David and Shelley Breen's house, and Shelley was like, "Wait a second,” and she had to think twice.

Mark: Are you serious?

Andrew: Yeah, Shelley was like and I was like, now have you ever looked at 'em real close?

Lynda: That's funny people are still discovering.

Michael: When I was a kid, I couldn't, I didn't understand how a boy and a girl could look alike and not be each other. I'm like, mom says, “Honey, you can look like your sister, but you're still a boy." I said, "Thanks, mom.” You know?

Mark: Now who is the oldest?

Lynda: Um, to tell the truth, no, I am, I am, four years.

Andrew: Yeah, like twins.

Lynda: Yeah, like twins.

Mark: I didn't know that. Well, you know what, ‘cause we went to, okay, I came...

Lynda: But I was, you were ahead of me at Liberty.

Mark: Many years. How many years? I graduated in '80.

Lynda: And I was '85.

Mark: Okay, so you're five.

Lynda: '85, yeah.

Michael: I came in '84.

Lynda: Yeah, so wow.

Andrew: Oh, 'cause you were at Liberty too, that's right. So all of y'all were under that weight.

Lynda: Yes, yes. We were fundamentalist. No, I'm just kidding.

Mark: How did y'all end up there?

Lynda: Well, you know what, actually,

Michael: We were the first.

Lynda: Jerry Falwell came to our church in Kansas City. Sorry, Washington, D.C. Kansas City, Missouri, Washington, D.C. We had a bus ministry. At the time, we had the fastest growing bus ministry in the country. We had 500 kids on bus ministry in our Sunday schools. So they... You remember Lynn Sandy? Do you remember the guy at Liberty University? Well, he had Dr. Falwell come in, and he spoke at our church. I remember he came, he didn’t have security, anything, he just came to our little humble church, and then he said, "When you're ready for school, I'll give you a scholarship."

Michael: Thank you, Jerry. We love you.

Lynda: And that was pretty much...

Mark: And you know, I came to your church too.

Lynda: Yeah, I know, I know, Mark.

Michael: True that.

Lynda: My parents love you.

Mark: Their daddy's church. Listen to me. I was a student at Liberty,

Michael: Yes!

Mark: I walked in, and do y'all remember what they were hollering at me from the street?

Lynda: No, I don't remember.

Mark: Somebody called me a cracker.

Lynda: No, they did not. Oh my, no!

Mark: Remember that?

Lynda: No, I don't.

Michael: Cracker, ya cracker jack.

Lynda: Well.

Michael: No, it's funny.

Mark: But the church was precious.

Lynda: Yeah, yeah.

Andrew: Was it a predominantly African American church?

Lynda: Well, yeah, all so much, but... Well, I shouldn't say…

Andrew: You can.

Lynda: You can cut stuff out.

Andrew: Yeah, we won't.

Lynda: But we were taught to love people no matter what, but there was one white family in our neighborhood. I remember Patrick. I don’t remember his last name. But I got upset with him one day, and I called him a white cracker.

Mark: Uh oh.

Michael: Lynda Randle.

Lynda: I did, and I got a whipping when they used to whip kids back then.

Andrew: Sure.

Michael: You know what James says about the tongue? James 1, right?

Lynda: What's it say?

Michael: Unruly evil.

Lynda: Yeah, well. Anyway, anyway. I would say it's unruly, but yeah, I just kind of got vexed in my spirit and I didn't know what else to say, but I'd heard somebody say white cracker, but you don't say that. But I didn't know it then.

Mark: You know, I'd never been called that name. I love crackers. I love it with peanut butter.

Michael: Me too.

Mark: Okay, question. So have y'all always been very close?

Michael: Yeah.

Lynda: I think best friends forever. Like okay, so here's a story I told Mike just recently.

Michael: We've drifted here and there.

Lynda: And he didn't know, but when my mother went to give birth to him--

Michael: Oh goodness, not this story.

Lynda: I was standing on the front porch of our humble home there in D.C., and I saw my mom go out like this and she got in my dad's, my dad drove a cab, got in the cab and went off to the hospital. And a few days later, she comes back with this little bundle. I was four, don't forget.

Andrew: Right.

Lynda: And it was this kid, and I remember just being in awe of that moment, like you know, I don't remember any other deliveries in my--

Michael: Just a beautiful brown boy. What a beautiful child.

Lynda: That's not what I thought. He's got a big head. So anyways, no, that's...

Michael: Born this day.

Andrew: Yeah, born this day.

Lynda: That's not what I thought, but no, so from day one I think, you know, I always felt like I was a big sister and stuff, so yeah, you have sibling stuff that goes on because we're human.

Andrew: Well, is there anybody between y’all? Or are y'all?

Michael: Yeah, oh yeah.

Lynda: Yeah, there was seven of us.

Andrew: Okay, there's seven total.

Lynda: So I'm in the middle of seven kids, so there were... Six of us are stair-stepping in age.

Michael: They saved the best for last.

Lynda: And then he's the baby.

Mark: Are you close to any of the others?

Lynda: Yeah, we're close.

Michael: I'd say regular.

Mark: But y'all got something special.

Michael: I love all my sisters, I love all my sisters and my brothers. I'm saying, but we...

Mark: So you are in touch with your other siblings?

Michael: Absolutely, yeah. I think because we sing, because we sing, you know, we just kind of have the same kind of lifestyle, so to speak.

Lynda: Yeah. And five out of seven of us sang. Two are with the Lord now, but five out of seven, so we’re the ones that were blessed to do it full time.

Mark: Wait, before we go any further, give me a little bit of your mother.

Lynda: Oh my word.

Mark: She can imitate her mother. This is her mother.

Lynda: If my mother were here she would say, she'd say, "Mark," she always have to do our, "Mark, Andrew, I love you. I'm praying for you.”

Michael: That's spot on.

Lynda: "And now I'm meeting in heaven the Mary of the ‘Mary, Did You Know?' that you wrote. I know her now.” That's what my mom, that's my mom. Seriously.

Mark: Is that great?

Lynda: If you were to meet my mom, that was her voice. That was her voice.

Mark: I met her, I met her, I knew her.

Andrew: Is she here?

Lynda: No, she's with the Lord.

Mark: She's in heaven.

Michael: Her spirit is here.

Lynda: And she was, mom was so funny 'cause of course she's proud of all of us and everything, but she somehow got wind that the Chick-fil-A stores, you know, they are familiar with of course Newsboys, familiar with Gaither, and they kind of give you free stuff sometimes because of that.

Mark: What?

Michael: My momma loved--

Mark: So wait, so wait, so--

Michael: My momma loved free stuff.

Mark: Wait, wait, wait.

Lynda: So wait, wait, Mark. This is the, this is the best one, okay.

Mark: I was with Gaither sometimes.

Lynda: I know.

Mark: I never got a free sandwich.

Lynda: So I don't go into Chick-fil-A and say, "Hey, I'm gonna get" ‘cause, you know, some of the people, they kind of know.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah.

Lynda: Okay, so my mom lived with us in Kansas City a couple years before she passed, so we're in the drive-thru at Chick-fil-A.

Michael: Oh boy.

Lynda: And we're ordering and it's only about 11 bucks. That's it, and so we get up to the window, and the lady says it'll be $11. Before the lady got it out really good, my mother said, "My daughter sings with the Gaithers and my son is with Michael with Newsboys," and I got so… I said, “Mom, we've got eleven dollars.”

Michael: Looking for a deal.

Lynda: "We can pay.” Yeah, she was looking for the free food.

Andrew: She was!

Mark: And the lady should've said, "Well, then you can afford it."

Lynda: That's what I told her. I said, "We can afford this."

Michael: My mom was a hustler.

Lynda: Yeah, I know she was.

Michael: That lady, sweetie pie, but if she wanted something, she got it.

Lynda: Yeah, she's sweet, and she loved you too, Mark.

Mark: I loved her.

Lynda: My mother, I'm not just saying that. She adored Mark. Yeah, you can have that.

Mark: I love this. Now, that's a first.

Lynda: I didn't want to get green stuff in teeth.

Andrew: Yeah, that is a first.

Mark: I love that someone’s actually loving our food. First time anybody's ever loved this food. No, I'm kidding.

Andrew: We have to encourage you to eat.

Mark: What is the point of this?

Andrew: The conversation.

Lynda: That's good food.

Mark: No, but I mean the siblings. What's your point?

Andrew: Think about, well, sibling dynamics. I'm interested about sibling rivalry. 'Cause I think it's like, and I was even talking to my dad just last night about, I have two older brothers, okay. We're separated by about 10 years total.

Lynda: Okay, wow.

Andrew: So we're split up a little bit, and you know, I was talking to my dad, we’re all close to our parents and my brothers, at times, are going through things at times and I'm going through things, and we talk to our parents about that some. But I don't remember any like specific rivalry necessarily, but we didn't pick similar professions. We weren't interested in the same things.

Lynda: Okay.

Andrew: So was that ever a thing with you guys? Was there ever any kind of tension of like, you know?

Michael: Well, I'll tell you a true story. When Lynda and I, when Lynda was at Liberty,

Lynda: A true story. Liberty, there's a Liberty.

Michael: At Liberty, at Liberty, uh, uh.

Lynda: Remember when TobyMac called the house to talk to you one time and he never heard dad's voice on the phone, and he said, "Yeah, Mr. Tait, is Mike Tait?” Toby was like, "Who is...?" I said that's my dad talking. He couldn't understand, and he said, "What did your dad say?"

Michael: Was there a the in there Michael Tait?

Lynda: But my dad--

Michael: Lynda goes off to Liberty and I'm still in high school, and I'm like singing and making cassette tapes and the Good Life soundtrack. Remember those Good Life soundtracks?

Lynda: Yes, Good Life, wow, Publications.

Michael: And the studio series?

Lynda: Yeah.

Michael: They were the best, by the way. So Lynda goes to Liberty, and I was, for some reason, I was just jealous. I was like, how come she gets to do this music, gets to make her CD, her own little tape. What about me?

Mark: Is that what you thought?

Michael: Mark, but then I was like... And she was so sweet.

Andrew: And how old were you?

Lynda: Teenager, 18, 17?

Mark: So you had literally told her, "What about me?” Or you just thought that?

Michael: No, I thought that, yeah.

Lynda: But you didn't tell me. You didn't tell me till years later.

Michael: But you never knew it till like Christmas.

Lynda: A few years ago. But what's crazy is I was so proud of him, like see, so every chance I got to sing, I took him out with me to sing. There was nothing in my, not even a halfway jealous bone, body, nothing.

Mark: Well, you're older too.

Lynda: But I just, it never even crossed my mind that he would be because it wasn't like I was coming home going, "I sold 100 cassettes tonight.” It was nothing like that.

Michael: And what's crazy--

Lynda: But my, but my dad would say, we would mess with dad too, 'cause at the end of the day, for my dad, the bottom line was--

Michael: Chub, Chub, what'd you do?

Lynda: It was, my nickname was Chub, he said, after a concert, he said, "Chub, how'd you make out?"

Michael: "Chub, how much more you get, Chub?"

Lynda: So I knew, I knew he wasn't asking about salvation or the mission. I knew. But see, what we would do.

Michael: No, but we knew our dad was...

Lynda: But we would make it up. So he'd say--

Michael: He was a soul winner.

Lynda: "Chub, how'd you make out?" and I said, "Daddy, tonight five people came to know the Lord.” And then that got him riled up a little bit, and then he would ask, he said, and I finally got him to say it, he said, "Chub, how'd your tape sales go?” I said, "Daddy, we sold a lot of tapes.” And sometimes Mike would hear those conversations.

Michael: But he was sad about that because dad would think, "Okay, bigger offering time now. Lynda's got more money. Give to the ministry, make bait."

Lynda: Yeah, because he was a missionary in the inner city and he lived on the support of people and his cab, and so we got to bless he and my momma in so many ways. My mom worked a government job, but it was funny 'cause it was, “Chub, how you make out, baby?” And then, Mark, he would always have no matter where we went, he would say, he would go with these pastors meetings and he said, "Chub, always have a tape on you, always, 'cause you never know.” So he was always kind of our like impromptu manager kind of thing, like you know, whatever. Basically, it was like, how much did you sell, how much you were gonna get.

Michael: And it was every time we got the chance to sing, sing.

Lynda: And one time I told him seriously, I told my soul back then I said, it was like $1,500. He said, "Chub, you hit the jackpot!” I mean, he was like, you know how happy dad was when it came to money and stuff, but yeah.

Mark: Well, your genres of music were so different.

Lynda: But not when we started that way.

Michael: I started in Liberty, you know. Singing with Falwell on the Old Time Gospel Hour, so a bit more on the conservative side till I met this guy named TobyMac. And then we started mixing things up a bit, and then the roads kind of split.

Lynda: 'Cause you were doing some Leon Patillo.

Andrew: Wow.

Lynda: You were doing Larnelle Harris, and who else? I mean, yeah, he was, yeah.

Michael: Wayne Watson, do you know who Wayne Watson is? Russ Taff. Probably my favorite.

Mark: What is?

Michael: Russ Taff.

The hands of time go round and round
They don't slow down when you lose your way
At every turn, the things you learn

I love you, Russ.

Lynda: Love you, Russ.

Andrew: Do you ever like, overhearing those conversations, was it like wanting some attention from your dad, maybe? That was a little bit of jealousy or?

Michael: No, no, because you know what, little did I know that inside I didn't have the gumption to actually do it, but she was doing what I wanted to do, so I was like, hold up, slow down a bit.

Lynda: And I never knew he was.

Michael: Let me catch up.

Lynda: I never knew he wanted to do it, and he's doing it in a big way too. I mean, like, you know, it's--

Michael: Bottom line is you were young, you know? You had emotions everywhere.

Lynda: But when he told me how jealous he was, it shocked me because I'm thinking all this time, we were so--

Michael: I didn't tell you the whole story though. I had thoughts of going… Yeah, I thought about it.

Mark: What?

Michael: Just.

Lynda: But you know what?

Michael: I never did.

Lynda: Anyway.

Michael: Come here.

Lynda: I love you.

Mark: Aww.

Michael: I'd never do that.

Lynda: But yeah, and I'm so proud. It's funny people ask me now, aren't you proud of your brother? And I say, well, I was always proud of my brother. I don't like when they equate me being proud because of--

Mark: His success.

Lynda: His success or something. I go, I was always proud. Yeah, I'm proud. That's great, but that's not what our relationship is based on.

Michael: Thank the Lord.

Lynda: And when we get to sing together, like we’re gonna do some Christmas stuff, which is fun.

Mark: That's gonna be good.

Lynda: And it's pretty exciting. But so I'm not wanting to hang out, you know, 'cause he's doing Newsboys and all that kind of stuff now. I'm on the Gaither side too, and we've got a blessed following as well. It's just because we're siblings, we're close, and we just make beautiful music.

Michael: And she gets free tickets to all my shows.

Lynda: You know what.

Michael: I give her backstage pass to come and see me.

Lynda: Oh yeah, tell us about that.

ChildFund Sponsorship Message

Mark: Dinner Conversations is brought to you by ChildFund, a community development organization that has been envisioning a world where every child is free to live at their fullest potential no matter where they're from or what challenges they face, and they've been doing this since 1938. ChildFund's mission is to help bring positive and lasting change to communities around the world by removing the barriers that keep children from realizing and reaching their dreams.

Andrew: Worldwide, over 570 million children are living in extreme poverty. For too many families, access to healthcare is a luxury and opportunities for education and employment are extremely limited, forcing parents to often make choices that hinder, rather than promote, their children's futures. ChildFund's community development programs address these issues so that children around the world don't just have to survive, they can truly thrive.

Mark: Yeah.

Andrew: And I believe to love God best, we must learn to love our neighbors even better, our neighbors like these children in Guatemala. ChildFund is giving us that unique opportunity, all of us, you guys and us, to serve God by loving these children through sponsoring a child today.

Andrew: Yes, plus a special item made just for you by the communities in Guatemala.

Mark: And every sponsor and a guest is invited to a Dinner Conversations Friends & Family Weekend in Nashville.

Andrew: Hey now, which includes mealtimes with Mark and me, private little concerts and chit chats with our friends, and a special Sunday morning service that will happen right before you head out of town.

Mark: And if you sponsor more than one child, you will have the opportunity to be a guest on an actual episode of Dinner Conversations during the Friends & Family Weekend in Nashville.

Andrew: Does it get better than that?

Mark: No.

Andrew: Does it, Mark? Does it? Stay tuned for exact details, and don't forget to visit childfund.org/dinnerconversations to sponsor your child today.

Lynda Randle and Michael Tait singing “At The Cross”

Alas and did my Savior bleed
And did my Sovereign die
Would He devote
That sacred head
For sinners such as I

At the cross, at the cross where I first saw the light
And the burdens of my heart rolled away
It was there by faith I received my sight
And now I am happy all the day

At the cross, at the cross where I first saw the light
And the burden of my heart, they rolled away
It was there by faith I received my sight
And now I am happy all the day
And now we are happy all the day
And now I am happy
All the day

Michael: Come on now, Jesus.

Lynda: Yeah!

Lynda: We grew up in this space. We grew up in that duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh. Yeah, we grew up right there, you know what. We used to shout and dance, okay. That's good.

Michael: That's fun.

Andrew: All right.

Mark: What would you tell parents? How can you foster that your kids will like each other?

Michael: I think you, I think you… Well, I don't have kids, but I will tell you something. Watching my nieces and nephews grow up--

Lynda: I'm trying to get him a wife.

Michael: And raise some of them with Lynda, kids obviously watch their parents, whether they do good or bad or whatever. Using Lynda and Mike as an example, Lynda and Mike Randle, their two daughters, Joy and Patience.

Lynda: Hey Pay, Joy.

Michael: They are besties.

Lynda: Oh, they are so close.

Michael: Because they watched mom and dad love each other, and I think that that love example goes around. It's reciprocal, and the kids watch that.

Andrew: You think the parent example of the parents loving one another.

Lynda: Yeah, and plus, you are not supposed to, and we just never did this with our kids, like pit them against each other and say, why can't you be like your sister? Why can't you be like your brother?

Michael: Right.

Lynda: 'Cause there was an article that came out in Kansas City about Patience and it was just great, in the newspaper or whatever, and we were sharing it with somebody and Joy was in the room, and they said, and they said, "Well now, what are you gonna do?” And I said, "No, no, no, no, no. We don't do that with our kids."

Michael: Yeah, right, back it up.

Lynda: Joy is brilliant. God's gifted her in ways he hasn't gifted Pay. They're best friends, and this is what we don't do.

Andrew: Yeah, we can all just celebrate each kid to be celebrated by their peers, by their parents--

Lynda: Absolutely.

Andrew: Without them feeling like, oh, I didn't do something, just 'cause I'm not being celebrated in this moment.

Lynda: Absolutely, and they are best buds.

Michael: And I think if mom and dad celebrate the kid, if Lynda just celebrated Patience or Joy, or the other. That feels like a major lack, like what's going on? Am I, you know, minced meat? What am I?

Andrew: Yeah, yeah. And you see that in sibling groups 'cause I've seen sibling groups of friends where it's like they do kind of obviously favor one, and the favoritism doesn't come out verbally but you look at the attention, even the way they provide for one child over the other. Maybe that one is aspiring to something that one parent understands. So I would think as a parent, you have to pay attention to your kids.

Lynda: Yeah, absolutely. And I heard Chuck Swindoll say years ago one that says, "Train up a child in the way he should go, not the way you think they should go but the child's bent.” So you kind of know after, three, four. Patience, I knew Patience. Like we always would watch these little VeggieTale videos and things like that, and I said, "This girl really likes film." She ended up getting her degree in filmmaking and everything, so it’s great and you just kind of, you kind of foster that and encourage that, you know, you just find their bent and not train them up in the way you think they should go.

Michael: Preach it. Preach, Chub.

Lynda: And that's kind of what, that's kind of what we've tried.

Mark: How did you get the name Chub?

Lynda: Well, because my bell bottoms did not flare on me because I was so chunky.

Andrew: Skinny jeans in the first generation.

Michael: When Lynda was young, she had these, she had these cherubim cheeks, cherubim cheeks.

Lynda: Yeah, I was.

Michael: She was a little--

Lynda: I was a little chunker and I'm still, I'll never be skinny, I'm not trying, but I, so my nickname's Chub and I love it.

Michael: In the black world, we call you what you are. If you're skinny, we call you slim. If you're fat, we call you--

Lynda: If you're fat? Do you actually use that word? Mike, you have to be politically on point.

Mark: Be sure we're PC. I can't hardly talk anymore.

Lynda: I know, I know. I got you.

Michael: Like Fats Domino. Or if you're small, what's up shorty?

Lynda: Was Chubby Checker chubby?

Andrew: But is that used as offensive, do you feel like?

Michael: And I don't, I don't know.

Andrew: 'Cause it's kind of nickname-y.

Michael: Yeah, but its like you don’t think about it that much because it's okay.

Lynda: I love it. My dad says, "Baby, if you don’t mean it, don't sing it.” I'll never forget that.

Mark: Oh, I love that. It's the truth.

Lynda: Yeah, he would tell me that, seriously.

Mark: If you don't mean it, don't sing it.

Lynda: You know how we used to play church? We used to play church.

Michael: My dad hated that, yeah.

Lynda: And we grew up in a Pentecostal church when we first started, you know, and they would be preaching and my dad would be sweating and hand behind the ear and they would be squealing and people.

Michael: And the Bible says, God, our Father's glory, come to me, all you that are heavy laden and I will give you rest. Take my yoke up.

Mark: Is that the way he preached?

Lynda: Well, yeah, that's the way we started. That way it was called hooping.

Mark: It's called what?

Lynda: It's called hooping.

Andrew: So it's actually called something.

Michael: Mark is like.

Lynda: Okay, so here's the thing.

Andrew: I've never heard that.

Lynda: So for all of the friends of color that are watching, to be respectful of our culture, that is the way we were taught, as we were, you know, growing up, all the way back through slavery as the way we expressed ourselves, and it was, it's kind of a--

Michael: The church voice.

Mark: A singsong.

Lynda: It's kind of a, it's a singsong.

Michael: Yep, that's what it is.

Lynda: It's rhythm, it's chant, it's call and response, and so I say that's why the black church go on so long because we're talking to the preacher.

Mark: Oh, I love it.

Lynda: You know, but it was a hoop, it was a hoop.

Michael: Hoop and holler.

Lynda: And my parents, my dad started out hooping, and then, of course, somewhere along the way, you know, he realized that, not saying that people that are hooping are not teaching because sometimes they are, but my dad realized it was just a lot of hooping.

Michael: He could teach without the hoop.

Lynda: He could teach without the hoop, so it just became a lot of noises.

Andrew: It became more authentic to him to just be himself.

Lynda: So he started learning, you know, more Bible teaching.

Mark: I love that. Don't sing it if you don't mean it. Boy, that's a great quote.

Andrew: Let's talk about your dad, Nate Tait, right?

Michael: Reverend Nate Tait, like a cartoon name.

Andrew: So growing up preachers kids, which there are a lot of people who grow up PK. I don't know if that was a term.

Michael: I know. We're the worst ones ever.

Andrew: Yeah, I know. I mean, it’s right here in front of us, but when I think about preachers kids, I think about, okay, there is an added element of expectation or weight--

Michael: You think?

Andrew: Whether your dad put on it you, whether the church put it on you, whether whoever, you may put it on yourself, right? So did you feel that way, number one, and then number two, like how did that shape your faith, positively or negatively? Because you're still people of faith, so it didn't turn you away.

Michael: Well, quick funny story, next door neighbor. We had a next door neighbor.

Lynda: Miss Janie Payne.

Michael: Her name was Janie Payne, and when mom and dad were gone from the house, she took it upon herself to be the neighborhood police over the Tait family. Thank you, honey.

Lynda: Eat your vegetables.

Michael: Some more meat.

Lynda: I made a mess.

Michael: So Janie Payne would watch us play or do what else we're doing, and every little tit and tottle she would copy in her brain.

Lynda: Yeah, she would tell him, "Mr. Tait, your kids..."

Michael: Your daughter, you know what Michael did when you were gone? Right when you drove off in that cab, you know what Michael did? Mark, I was like, I'm gonna choke her. But that kind of pressure 'cause, you know, preacher's kids, other kids can run and do all of this kind of stuff.

Mark: So she was watching y'all particularly?

Lynda: All the time. And we had the brownstone home.

Michael: We were 12-years-old. Of course, you're gonna be ornery at 12.

Lynda: Yeah, she could hang out of her window, like her bedroom window, and it's next to our bedroom.

Michael: Yeah, like brownstones.

Lynda: Brownstones. It was, it was crazy. It was insane. And she would always tell on us, but you do feel, yeah, it was pressure 'cause our church was right next door to our home.

Mark: Oh, wow.

Michael: Yeah, it was tough.

Lynda: So we were there all the time. We had, okay, let's start with like Friday night service. We had Saturday choir rehearsal. We had three services on Sunday, three.

Andrew: Oh my gosh.

Lynda: We'd do the Sunday morning, of course, the Sunday school, and then we'd go down for like a lunch or something. We'd have a musical. We'd have these quartets come. Then we had Wednesday night. Well, actually Wednesday afternoon. It was prayer time, Wednesday afternoon, and then Wednesday night Bible study. So we were in church all the time, and to the point where there was a lot of things, there were a lot of things that have affected me, but I'm not saying it's negative, but I thought if I missed church, like it's done, it's over. God's gonna be mad. ‘Cause we had to go to church all the time, and I just realized that God is not just sitting up, you know, hanging up there and like when are you going?

Michael: Give you gold star every time you go to church.

Lynda: And strike up those stars and it's just not about physically going--

Michael: It's a good thing to do.

Lynda: Which is great

Michael: Right.

Lynda: But that kind of messed with my psyche a little bit, and my husband, you know, as we were traveling sometimes I didn't go to church, and he said, "Baby, you gotta, you gotta get off of this.” If I'm not in church, which we do go to church a lot because he's a pastor.

Andrew: Sure.

Lynda: But that's something for me that if you missed at all, then I felt like it was a brownie point, not a brownie. You know, it’s a mark against me.

Michael: But let me say the impact I felt though. You mentioned the impact. The impact I felt from my dad's lifestyle and mom's lifestyle I felt years after 'cause I think when you're Bible thunked, you're in school, you go to a Christian probably high school, junior high school, you go to a Christian college, you join a band called DC Talk, you're always in church situations or Christian situations. It's like you don't, you kind of just take for granted, like I'm serving you, God, because I'm working for you, so I'll talk to you later.

Mark: What now?

Michael: I'm serving you God 'cause I'm working for you.

Andrew: I'm working for you.

Michael: So Oswald Chambers talks about, he says, it's an insult to, I’m paraphrasing, to work for God and not know Him. God wants you to sit still and just be. We're called human beings, not human doing. He wants us to be, and I realized as I got older, like my dad had a lot of good words to say and they come back to you. You think you forget about them, but then you go-- Oh wait, they're in your brain. They lie dormant inside your brain and then life comes along and all of a sudden you go, well, dad said this. Oh, I get it now. Oh, walk a mile in his shoes, now talk.

“God wants you to sit still and just be. We’re called human beings, not human doing.”

— Michael Tait

Andrew: So it came full circle to understanding that.

Michael: Sometimes it hits me like a freight train.

Lynda: And we had family devotions around the table every single night. If my dad wasn't there, he was in this cab, my mom would do it, so we’d just sit around the table and we would read the Psalms and the Proverbs and we had to learn… Well, I say we had to learn Bible verses. We did have to, and I'm not mad about it.

Mark: You know, it sounds magical, a little bit to me too. It may have been--

Lynda: No, but in our community, just the fact that our family was together, like the mom and dad--

Mark: Yeah, what an example.

Lynda: Was there, that was pretty amazing.

Mark: But I mean, I know it sounds kind of horrible on one side to think you're right next to your church, which means your people were there all the time. There's no privacy.

Lynda: Yeah, and we would catch them look in my mother's pots. What you got cooking mom, Mama Tait? You know, yeah.

Mark: But yet on the other hand, what a cool childhood, kind of. 'Cause our house was like that, a lot of activities, and when you're a kid, it's kind of magical when you look back on it.

Lynda: And I remember some of the saints of old. In our church, we had the mothers of the church, like some of the older--

Michael: Missionaries in the front row.

Lynda: The missionaries and they would wear their white and stuff--

Michael: We had water jugs.

Mark: What was their job?

Lynda: Well, their job was that they were praying and they were covering us as a body, and one night, a guy came in and he was robbing our church. He came in with a gun, and I'll never forget this, Missionary Carter. You remember Missionary Carter?

Michael: Yes, Lynda.

Lynda: She had this old black patent leather purse. I'll never forget it, probably not a dime in it, if a dime was in it, right? And the guy had the gun to her, and I remember before I crawled under the pews to crawl down the back stairs of the church to go to our house to call the police. One of the other ladies, Sister Johnson, she's still alive. I love you, sweetheart. But she stood up and said, "Don't shoot the pastor.” That's the first thing she said, hands outstretched. "Don't shoot the pastor.” So the guy with the gun was tussling with Missionary Carter. Now you talk about hindsight looking back. Who would do that now? But her faith, you can call it foolishness or faith 'cause she's one of those old praying mamas, like you can shoot me, you can kill me, you're not getting this person, we're in the house of God.

Michael: Don't shoot the pastor.

Lynda: You don't do this. This was years, this is like over 40-plus years ago, and they don't make saints too much like that anymore.

Mark: So what happened?

Lynda: Yeah, well, the police came. I thank God there was no shootout.

Mark: I thought there was a purse story behind all this.

Andrew: She kept her purse and said, "Not today."

Michael: Not today, Satan.

Lynda: 'Cause I remember some of those, like some of our old saints with the little black, but she didn't do anything with her purse.

Mark: So did everybody, it turn out all right?

Lynda: Turned out great. The police got it. But no, she was just like, "You're not getting in there."

Michael: Did he get the offering plate?

Lynda: I don't even know.

Andrew: This book right here, Lynda, The Cab Driver's Daughter, which I love, so this is you?

Lynda: Yes.

Andrew: Right, and this is Nate Tait? Reverend Nate Tait.

Michael: Bishop. I'm kidding.

Andrew: Your dad had some significant experiences living in D.C. I don't know if that was from being pastor and cab driver or just cab driver or whatever with some interesting racism poignant and pointed racism, racial oppression.

Lynda: He is from Alabama, born and raised in Alabama.

Michael: He never taught us how to hate.

Lynda: And yeah, but you know when we do these, I try not to like we're not the only two that have been touched with these stories.

Andrew: But you are some.

Mark: But it's your story.

Lynda: But it's my story, right, but I do try to tell it in the light of other people watching. It's not like we're, you know, something special in that regard, but we've had, my dad, they've had their struggles with racism and my mom in different stories. And even when we attended Liberty University, I had my struggles. I mean, somebody didn’t rent me an apartment because I was black, and on the phone, the lady says to me, when I was asking about the apartment, she said, "May I ask what your nationality is?” And I said, "Excuse me."

Andrew: Over the phone.

Lynda: She's over the phone, and I said, "Well, I'm black and I'm Negroid.” And she said "I can’t rent you this apartment."

Michael: You said Negroid?

Lynda: Yeah, that's Negroid. That's the proper name.

Mark: What year was that?

Lynda: This was the ‘80s. And then one of the, I sang with a white girl at Liberty and a white guy, and we would tour around a little bit.

Michael: Oh, let me tell the story.

Lynda: And we went to one church.

Michael: And the guy said, "No tracks, no slacks, no blacks."

Lynda: Oh no, not the same story.

Mark: They are like a married couple.

Michael: There was a Falwell story because--

Lynda: He is trying to tell my story.

Michael: My sister story.

Lynda: No, I heard it, right. That Jerry Falwell had gone out with some of the light singers and one of the groups had one of their first black people on the praise team or whatever, and they got to a church.

Michael: They saw an old chocolate guy.

Lynda: They went to Dr. Falwell 'cause they weren't into soundtracks, and remember soundtracks were of the devil back then too. So they looked at Jerry Falwell, and they said, "No tracks, no slacks, and no blacks."

Michael: You remember what Jerry did?

Lynda: And I forget what he said. He had another rhyme, and he come back with a rhyme and then he went off. But the story--

Mark: Now back to your story.

Lynda: So we were singing, and then something didn't work out with our hotel situation. So my friend David, I won't say his last name, David, he drives up to his grandma's home in Winston Salem, North Carolina. And we pull in the driveway and we needed a place to stay and she looked down that driveway and saw me in the car, and she said, "Get that N out of my yard.” I sat in that car and tears streamed down my face, and we ended up, 'cause we were breaking the rules at Liberty. We couldn't stay in the same hotel room because we were, you know, male and female. We ended up going to a hotel. We had the same room. We took a lamp, put it in between the bed. I'm not kidding. We gotta sleep in the same bed, seriously, because we had nowhere to stay and we couldn't drive back. But it doesn't make you… It's allowed me to build more bridges 'cause ignorant people will say a lot of stuff.

Andrew: How did your peers react in that scenario?

Lynda: They were disappointed. He didn't even know his grandmother was that way.

Michael: It's like I got it in Tennessee about 10 years ago. A guy says he's gonna hang me. Yeah, a little country store.

Mark: They'll hang you?

Michael: "Boy, it's getting dark outside. We'll hang you out here."

Andrew: Whoa.

Michael: I got in my car--

Andrew: 10 years ago?

Michael: Told my wife, got back in my car, and started to cry too because I'm thinking imagine what our forefathers went through. I mean, just here we are successful people, bless, safe, heaven-bound, and that one word in my life that one little negative little.

Andrew: Why do you think that is like why is it so powerful? Like you said, here I am. I don't have anything to prove. I don't have any need from this individual who's been disrespectful to me. But why does that still hurt?

Michael: People crave love. We all want to be loved. We want to match each other, you know. You want to enjoy people. It's about relationships, you know. And when this is in line, this is in line. When the vertical works, the horizontal works. But something my dad always said, "Son, colors don't hate. People do.” He says, we are God's bouquet. The beauty of the human race is found in the diversity, and we can celebrate each other. But we can't do it. Even if we were all green, it would be like, well, you're dark green. Well, I'm light green. We'll fuss and argue about it. Christianity, Protestants, and Catholics, you know.

Lynda: And one of the big myths that people, I mean, they go around and say that God is colorblind, and I said, no, he isn't colorblind.

Mark: He couldn't have invented the rainbows.

Lynda: Right, so why, and some people, you know, I've had people who say, “I don't see you as black.” I go, well, I am. I mean, is that a problem? 'Cause I am. Yeah, we're brown, right. But people, I think that's a way to end that people don't know how to deal in certain ways, and so they just feel like they could just dismiss, you know.

Andrew: And dismiss by categories.

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Mark: Oh yes, well, you know, you get that after every episode. And what about this mug with our faces on it?

Andrew: What says good morning better?

Mark: It's like we're on both sides, so lefty or righty, you get to see us every morning.

Andrew: You know, I think it's time we get back to those guests.

Mark: Yeah, probably.

Jon Reddick, Church of the City

Andrew: All right, so Mr. Jon Reddick, we first met in Aspen, Colorado. We got to sit down and have a conversation. I remember thinking we had not really ever talked before before we talked on camera, and I remember thinking and being impressed as I walked away by how articulate you are, not just about spiritual conversations but the way our spirituality interacts in very real day-to-day matters and conversations. And so as we were having, as Mark and I, for the show, we're having this kind of larger conversation with Michael Tait, Lynda Randle, who you know. I was texting with Lynda after that and you came up over and over and we had just met, and so I'm grateful to have another opportunity to hear from your mind and your heart on these matters. But for our audience who's being introduced to you, some of them, take me back again to growing up because you basically grew up in the church.

Jon: Yeah, in the church.

Andrew: Son of a preacher man, right?

Jon: Yeah, my father and he's still ministering and everything like that. So my father would always preach, and my mom would always play.

Andrew: Would she play as a response to his preaching?

Jon: Well, lemme see. Well, it wasn't set up like that. Maybe. I can't remember actually. But I just remember my dad was preaching, my mom was playing the piano, and my sister and I would be in the choir. So yes, so all through childhood, that was life.

Andrew: And you grew up in Memphis. I was in Memphis just a couple months ago, yeah, for the first time went to the Lorraine Motel, which of course is the site where Martin Luther King Jr. was assassinated, and really a lot of people would consider that the apex and the climax of the energy of the civil rights movement, at least in America, and the racial tension and strife, which of course has been a part of our culture here in America for hundreds of years, not just the last several decades. As I was listening and reading a lot of the recallings of the conflict that led up to his death, even in his own his last speech, right. "But that mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord.” Why do you think there is so much spiritual energy? Why do you think the conversation around racial, again, both division, both the negative and the positive reconciliation, is such a spiritual conversation, and even more specifically, like a Christian conversation?

Jon: I think part of it is that if the problems of racism or the difficulties that we face would be healed, I think that the church is at the foundation of a lot of that. And so I think it’s automatically something that God has his hand on in order to heal us, and it's used different ways.

Andrew: I mean, you are embedded into music, music is embedded into you, you know, throughout your history. Not only are you now a Gotee Record singer, songwriter, artist, but you've been a musical director for other artists on the road for years and been a part of the church like talking about since you were a child, and we're sitting here at Church of the City, which is based out of Nashville, you know, where you lead many weekends when you are home. What is it about music for you that extends the grace to actually be with others, think about others, change and shift your perspectives about things or people you don't understand?

Jon: Well, when I first started, I would pray this prayer and it would always be, God, help me to hear the cries of your people. Like I just want to be able to hear in some kind of way to help me to hear the cries, or now it's the stories, of your people because I think that's where you're broken and you get broken into a way where you're really trying to understand.

“God, help me to hear the cries of your people.”

— Jon Reddick

Andrew: Well, and our pain is also our common denominator as people. It's kind of like the level floor that we all find ourselves eventually and then exist out of in our surrender to God in our positioning.

Jon: It's a journey. I think one of the key things is for us to just keep getting people in the room, not to just get them in the room just for their presence but to also hear the story, so I think the more we keep being consistent about getting people in the room, getting to hear their stories, then we start getting more understanding of how we can even get together and make this thing mesh or build off of it versus fear. I think that's what is at the basis of all what we're talking about. Fear, fears that connect us to the things that we don't know, but fears about what we don't know.

Andrew: Or don't understand.

Jon: Or don't understand.

Andrew: Yeah, it's a control thing ultimately, fear is, right. How do we place that, what do we do with that fear so that we can… I don't think that we're supposed to wait until heaven, the other side of life, to like get it all together in the sense of loving one another. So what can, from your perspective, your experiences, all that we've talked about, what do you think we can do?

Jon: Number one is hearing stories for me. It's the sympathy that's learned or gained in hearing the story. When you hear things that other people have gone through or when you hear things that people are afraid of or when you hear, there's so many aspects of this topic that we're talking about. Where so many people find themselves in so many different places and it's emotional pain, like you say, for them. The other thing is to educate ourselves on what has happened in the past or what may be happening currently and allowing ourselves to know that, for whatever reason, that is that person's truth, you know, and I think, also is, when all else fails, this is a journey that we're traveling on, you know, and it's a hard journey. It's a difficult one. I mean, there's beauty in it. At the surface level, people are jumping in diversity and are like, man, this is great, I love this, and then there's that one comment there like (gasps) wait, you just test on all this stuff. And the funny thing about it is it'll tap on things that we didn't even know that we were harboring inside.

Andrew: Oh 100%, I have experienced that.

Jon: It's crazy, and so it's the desire to get in it with each other. It's being vulnerable in those times and reminding ourselves that this is a journey that all of us are on and probably in different places, but I do believe that we'll look back and realize we're not where we wanna be but we're not where we used to be.

Andrew: It's interesting, I think, the biases that we have against others, usually, I've experienced in my own life comes out of my own insecurity about myself, and my own insecurities come out of my inability to believe that I am who God is saying I am, which brings us back to the spiritual experience, why it's so important to come together, to worship together, to press in together, because I think it's a way of surrendering my perspective of myself back to how God sees me. And if I believe I am who God says I am, then I think I'm more readily open even though we're different and I don't understand everything about you and you don't understand everything about me. I'm more open to God sees you the same way, and then you become a beautiful person to me, not someone who’s just strikingly different. Although, the difference is the beauty too. Like you said, we gotta jump into it.

Jon: No, you're right. I think there's also value in… One of the things we find when we're educating ourselves is that we find out about what shared power does, right. We find out about what it means to celebrate differences, not just acknowledge differences. We find out what it means to make people a part instead of making people a beautiful other because making people other is still making people something else, you know. And if people are already feeling like they are not a part of what is not less than, then we prepare to perpetuate the situation. I do wanna, for a second, one of the things I said is we're not where we wanna be, but we're not where he used to be. I think that's a very sensitive topic because when you hear those stories from different people, the needle may barely be moving for some, you know. In 60 years, I've talked to people who said they can play clips from Malcolm X or Martin Luther King and it feel like it was a news clip from today. But then you talk to people who feel progression and who've walked in some progressive things, so it's like, I think that's a very, it's hearing the story.

Andrew: Sure, it's hearing the story, and it's honoring the story, and it's honoring the perspective not to say "Well, haven't we gotten over that" to someone, but to say, okay, to hear how it has played out in their story, even though it's not playing out in my story in the same way. And I gotta bring it back to music. I just think if we sing together, I mean, some people still aren't ready to hear someone's story, but within the context of music, there's a massaging of our heart, there's a softening. I really believe that, and you see it. I mean, you see it week to week. What have you learned about God by seeing so many thousands of people worship and so many people from so many different walks of life, even when they don't look that different. We know that we're all extremely unique. What has that taught you, or what have you felt like you've learned about God because of being in that leadership role?

Jon: One of the things I've learned is that he knew what he was doing when he placed music as a part of our lives, and I think music is one of those things that in this whole situation. I mean, it's music, sports, and war. You want to add what brings us together.

Andrew: Do not discriminate.

Jon: Right, right, because it's almost like Newton's Law where he's like, you know, if fear is going this way, an equal and opposite reaction is what will stop it, so music, that opposite thing of the fear brings it. You know, war is just a bigger fear, so now we're all afraid of that. Sports, we're having fun. So what it's taught me is that God does hear us and see us and even though he doesn’t always come through when we're wanting him to come through, it's not on our time, right? There is something that he's doing and there is something that he's working on, and I'm crazy enough to believe that he uses the things that are hard, he allows the things that are hard to shape us to be better, to shape us in some kind of way to be better, whether it's to lose pride or to overcome fear or to, you know, whatever all the different things may be. He's shaping us by allowing these things to help shape us, and music is the place... I mean, I said it earlier. It's the place where we lay down all of our crowns. It's the place where we're most vulnerable. At least we're most...

Andrew: Open or?

Jon: Yeah, we're more open when there's music going on because it hits us in different places.

Andrew: Yeah, it absolutely does. It's interesting, too, I remember one time someone on, I don't know, somewhere on some platform or maybe over the radio said something about "and then God showed up" or something,and I was with my dad. This was when I was growing up, and he says, "I don't like that.” I said, "What don't you like about that?” He said, "God doesn't show up. We show up," you know. Or more is revealed to us or more, you know, is taken away. It's what you're saying. God is always working. He's always at play. It's where is our posture, and music is allowing us the posture, I think, to open. It's not just an openness of heart. That openness of heart is the eyes to see, you know what I'm saying, so if you think about it, what a privilege that music is a part of your story and that that is helping thread for so many thousands of people their story to God, you know? Yes, it's our privilege to be… Yeah, it's your privilege, and it's our privilege.

Jon: It's our privilege.

Andrew: To be part of, yeah. What a great ending.

Mark: I think the best thing a child can do when their parents are racist is marry one.

Michael: Mark.

Mark: You know what I mean? You talk about healing and fixing it, and trust me you, will have beautiful babies. You mix the cream and black, you come up with gorgeous babies.

Lynda: Seth and Nirva.

Andrew: Oh yeah, they've been at this table.

Michael: I think God did that on purpose because when they mix, and come up with this.

Mark: God loves diversity. He loves it. Obviously, he created it.

Andrew: Yeah, and this isn't accurate maybe or something, but you think about children that have so many races involved in their makeup, you know, that aren't they even like, isn't it even more direct reflection of God somehow because he is reflecting all of this diversity instead of just being lily white. I don't know.

Lynda: None of us, I mean, we're all, you know, same source. It's like nobody's a hundred percent anything.

Mark: We all bleed red.

Lynda: Yeah, and that's, but I think, what you guys are doing, to the conversations, I did something a few years ago, Guess Who's Coming to Dinner. It was a little video I had and basically inviting people to your dinner table that don't look like you, start conversations. And so many people, you know, they just talk a lot of smack, but they have never sat down with anybody that doesn't look like them exactly, and that's kind of where it starts and because they’re ignorant a lot of, you know, as far as building bridges, they don't understand, and so it's kind of like the opportunity that we have, what you're doing, is this is where I think the healing begins.

Mark: The Dinner Conversations we did with Nicole C. Mullen. I called you after that and said I learned so much.

Lynda: I know, I know, I know.

Mark: I mean, that's why I love this because I had not heard so much of what she taught me that day about racism in the church.

Michael: And the truth is too, Mark, we're such creatures of comfort. I mean, you automatically, not because… Well, I'll give an example. I was a Liberty. A lot of my black friends would go sit with the black kids in chapel, and I would go sit with my other buddies, and they would think, okay, what's up with that. But I get it. They felt comfortable. But the point is if we're gonna ever come together, we say it all the time, you're gonna have to consciously--

Lynda: Yeah, it's intentional.

Michael: On purpose, yeah, walk outside that little comfort box of it looks like you, walks like you, talks like you, smells like you, is like you, lives where you live, and go over here and go, oh, no way. So there's that too? There's cheese pizza and pepperoni and meat lovers and veggie? No way, all those things? If all you have is cheese pizza your whole life, it's like, oh, cheese is the best thing ever. Until you get a bit of meat lovers. It'll change your life.

Lynda: Yeah, I like fish, but anyways.

Michael: I love fish.

Lynda: No, that's true. We did the same thing on purpose. When I would go in to the cafeteria, what was it Saga, and I would see all of my black friends over here, all of my white friends over here, and they were all at their tables. I would go over and sit at the white table--

Michael: Me too, Chub.

Lynda: With those wonderful folk, and it was great.

Michael: We love Caucasians.

Mark: Let me ask you this. What was that like?

Lynda: See, it's Caucasian, it's Negroid. It's in the same family. It's a proper word.

Mark: At those years you all were at Liberty when it was predominantly white.

Lynda: Yes.

Mark: You may have been the only black people there.

Michael: Might have been.

Lynda: Well, it was just few of us.

Mark: I mean, not many.

Andrew: It was a strong minority at that point.

Mark: Except the ones I’ve recruited for sports maybe.

Lynda: No, that's true. That's very true, yeah.

Mark: So my question is what was that like? I mean, as far as I think it would be interesting for me to be the only white person in an all African American school.

Lynda: It's good that you say that because I remember one of the music people there at the time thought that I was moving too much during the Living Christmas Tree. We were singing "Go Tell It On the Mountain.” And they, I mean, they took me to task and I mean, it just, it hurt.

Michael: Were you gyrating?

Lynda: No, no. But Dr. Falwell had told me, Dr. Falwell said, "I want you to sing like you sing at your home church.” I'll never forget that. And I looked at him and I said, "I have never sung for this many white folks in all my life, so I don't think I'm gonna be doing what I do at my home church, so it's not gonna happen.” I think that's where I kind of got a conservative edge too because that's not how we grew up. I used to actually dance before the Lord at church and shout, physically shout. We grew up shouting, and I had a tambourine and everything. But you know, when we were there at Liberty, somebody just like, "No, you know, you move too much.” And we had people in my dorm. They didn't know when we set, like when we do our hair, you can have curly hair, you can have straight hair, and like so when you straighten your hair, do you put it on an ironing board to press it? I mean, the questions that I got asked, but here's the thing, I thought, honestly, if I were gonna be the only black person that some of my white friends would ever encounter me--

Michael: Being an ambassador.

Lynda: I want to be an ambassador, I want to be a bridge, and so I wasn't angry with them. We had a lady that helped us in our home once, and she would help us and we were cleaning and she stopped in the middle of doing something and she said, "Now let me ask you something.” She said, "Now, what black folk,” she said, "If y'all don't like it, why don't you just go back to where you came from?” And she helped us in our home. This is a white woman. And somebody said, "Lynda, you just let her say that? You didn't tell her to go home, get out of your house?” I said, no, because she was honestly asking, and so I just said to her, I said, you know, "First of all, it's a long boat ride, and I get nauseous."

Mark: And you were born here.

Lynda: And I was born here. So I said, "I don't want to go back on the boat.” I was teasing, but no, I did not come on the boat. But no, I said, "No, no, you know, I was born here, so there's nowhere to go back to." And so yeah, I was just trying to engage her in another conversation, and then she did get to meet someone. She said she was at the gym and met a woman of color and she started having conversations and started building bridges and she was so excited, like I have a black friend now. We've been the only... I can tell you, Facebook, I know I am the only black friend of so many of my followers, and they forget that I'm on there when they start some of these racist remarks. When it gets to politics and stuff, people get kind of crazy. And then I want to just chime in and say, "Hello, I'm here."

Andrew: Having a lot of your professional career having been in the Gaither world now, which is a predominantly Caucasian world.

Lynda: Yes.

Andrew: Have you ever felt... I'm just curious. This is me being curious.

Lynda: Okay.

Andrew: Have you ever felt like the token black person?

Lynda: No. But. Oh, I can't say certain… No, I've never felt like the token black because I just I've always felt loved in everything, but we've had a few things that have happened in this group of people over the years here and there where I start to think a little bit. Maybe, you know, I don't know, but yeah. Let me just say this. I think, politically, the climate that we're in now, not that I tried to get in this world to pretend I wasn't black or anything like that. I'm not hiding at all, but I think the true colors have shown in ways with some of my touring mates.

Mark: Because they're aligning themselves so much politically.

Lynda: Yes, and I'm saying this… I'm a God voter. So I don't want to be like Democrat, Republican. I'm a God voter, so whatever that means to you, the viewer, you just take that. But the hateful things that have been said by people that you love and you know they love you, it's kinda made me feel like what do they really think about me? But as far as being a token, no. I'm a bridge builder. And I don't just sing, which is neat that I'm with Gaither, but we sing in mixed circles all around. I'm singing, thank God, all around the world in so many different genres, and I'm not just limited to the Gaither circle.

Mark: And as far as Gaither himself, I have seen him make a conscious effort--

Lynda: Yeah.

Mark: To include Larnelle back in the day.

Lynda: He said he's gonna black when he gets to heaven.

Andrew: Oh please, that's all I've hoped for.

Mark: Bill gets it.

Andrew: I could ask the same question of you. I mean, you're in all--

Mark: I've never seen anything like this political environment. I have never seen anything like it.

Michael: What's crazy being in black and white settings, but yeah, I've been with white boys, vanilla boys all my life. Like DC Talk, you know, two white guys, a black guy. Newsboys, three white guys, a black guy. My point is but I call it living integration because we get to live out loud. Can't a black guy front of pop rock band, making movies that impact culture to talk to people, and they can see, oh my gosh, okay, this is more than just... These guys are like... Like Duncan Phillips is one of my best friends on the planet. Love TobyMac. TobyMac and I started off--

Lynda: It's like when somebody said one of my best friends is black. That's not what you think.

Michael: Not at all.

Lynda: No, I was kidding.

Mark: Y'all talk so fast. My Lord, y'all talk fast.

Michael: My point is I don't think about that hard anymore because, to use millennial terms, haters are gonna hate, and it stinks. I wish it could be different, but the thing is I know I'm called to love. Love. Love. L-O-V-E. Exactly, it's a verb still. Love is a verb.

Mark: Thank you to Lynda Randle and Michael Tait.

Andrew: Be sure and check out some of their product right here in our Amazon affiliate link in the description of this episode.

Mark: And if you want to binge watch Dinner Conversations, you can do that right now on Amazon Prime. Dinner Conversations is brought to you by ChildFund, a community development organization that has been envisioning a world where every child is free to live with their fullest potential no matter where they're from or what challenges they face since 1938.

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S03, E02: Perfectly Imperfect featuring Wynonna Judd

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S03, E05: A New Normal featuring Jaci Velasquez and Nic Gonzales

S03, E06: Suicide: Hiding in Plain Sight featuring Mark Means and Wes Hampton

S03, E07: Personality by Number featuring Ian Morgan Cron and Lisa Whelchel

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S03, E09: Finding Beauty in Brokenness featuring Julie Roberts

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3/30/20 3/30/20

The Legend of Charlie Daniels

At 83 years-young, Charlie Daniels passed away on July 6, 2020. Filmed at his home studio in Nashville last year, this never-before-seen conversation with the Country music legend was much more than a chit-chat with a musical giant – it was a glimpse into the heart of a man educated and inspired by a lifetime of family, faith, and of course, music.

At 83 years-young, Charlie Daniels passed away on July 6, 2020. Filmed at his home studio in Nashville last year, this never-before-seen conversation with the Country music legend was much more than a chit-chat with a musical giant – it was a glimpse into the heart of a man educated and inspired by a lifetime of family, faith, and of course, music.

Transcript

O Lord, my God, when I in awesome wonder
Consider all the worlds Thy hands hath made
I see the sun, I hear the rolling thunder
Thy pow'r throughout the universe displayed

Andrew: That gritty, warm, Southern voice you are listening to belongs to none other than country music legend Charlie Daniels. On Monday, July 6, 2020, Charlie died of a stroke near his home just east of Nashville, Tennessee. He was 83. Mark and I had the incredible privilege of filming an episode of Dinner Conversations with Charlie at his home studio recently. We intended on airing the episode as part of next year's Season Four lineup. But when Mark and our assistant director, Chris Cameron, called me with the news that Charlie had just passed away, well, we all agreed It would be most poignant and most appropriate to share this conversation now. Our table talk with Charlie was much more than a chitchat with a musical celebrity. Rather as dinner progressed, this giant of a man began sharing from his heart about a lifetime journey with his family, his faith, and of course his music, which has impacted so many. And hopefully through conversations like these will impact many more. Even with the assurances of faith, the passage onto the other side of living is quite a mysterious one. And so when anyone passes away, we pause to remember and to reflect on a life well lived. But also to gaze into the heavens and ponder what it must be like to finally be at peace and to be at home. This conversation with Charlie is our small contribution to remembering and reflecting on his life here on Earth. And it is our way of pondering together with you the many signs that already point us all home.

Mark: Well, today was just so much fun. I had a different perception of Charlie Daniels than I'm leaving with. You know, in my mind, I think of a bad boy, a country singer with sunglasses, and every other word’s a cuss word, you know, in the songs, I mean, if you listen. But not that much, but I mean just more than Beverly would approve.

Andrew: Yeah, and kind of down and dirty.

Mark: And so I was listening to the songs coming over here and I'm getting prepared, you know. And I meet a Bible scholar, a guy, and I even asked him, I said, "What about all that cussing?” "No, I don't do that anymore,” he said, “because the songs really don't need it.” Well, you'll hear. I'm telling you, you're going to love this guy. He is one of us.

Andrew: Yeah, he is. You see in our conversation his evolution process from a young man into now an 82-year-old. Just what I love is not just a veteran of music but a veteran of life. We got this opportunity through a new book that Charlie's doing called Let's All Make the Day Count, and this book is a lot of that wisdom in one place. And we think we captured a lot of that wisdom on camera today.

Mark: And we have one seat left at the table, and it's yours. So let's join the conversation.

Mark: You wanna pray?

Andrew: Okay, yeah.

Mark: Are we ready? Are we ready? Okay. Yeah, absolutely.

Andrew: Father-- Oh, you were going--

Mark: No, you go.

Andrew: I thought you asked me.

Charlie: We're gonna have a millennial prayer.

Mark: Yeah, it might reach the ceiling.

Andrew: It'll pray for all things and people to go to heaven. All right. Lord Jesus, thank you for today. Thank you for Charlie and already his friendship, and Paula, and for their hospitality, and for Kelly and Alison and Richard and Chris and Mark. Just gift us with conversation that somehow reveals more of who you are.

Mark: Yes.

Andrew: And we love you. In Jesus' name, amen.

Charlie: Amen.

Mark: Amen.

Andrew: So in your studio, first.

Charlie: We are in my studio.

Mark: Where the magic happens.

Charlie: The hard work is what happens really actually.

Mark: Now, was "Devil Went Down to Georgia" recorded here?

Charlie: Oh no, this studio is not that old. "Devil Went Down to Georgia” was 40-years-old this month. We recorded it 40 years ago, and I can't remember the date. It was either last month or this month it was 40-years-old. We recorded it at Woodland Sound in Nashville.

Mark: And so you must've been 40-something.

Charlie: Something like that.

Mark: You had been already performing a long, long time.

Charlie: Oh yeah.

Mark: But that's the big… That changed everything, didn't it?

Charlie: The first hit I ever had was in 1973. It was called "Uneasy Rider.” It was a novelty song.

Mark: Right.

Charlie: And it made a big splash in the pop radio, in country radio, but it was not an album seller. It was a novelty song, and a lot of times novelty songs don't have the depth to make people want to go and listen to the rest of the album and see what's on it. It's just like that one thing.

Mark: You’re right.

Charlie: Did well as a single, but the first album we ever had that did good was in 1974. It was called Fire On the Mountain. It had a song called "The South's Gonna Do It” and "Caballo Diablo" and “Long-Haired Country Boy" in those tunes. And we got a lot of radio airplay on it. It kinda kicked things along. And then we had some other albums that did fairly well, but the one that really kicked it into high gear was in '79. It was called Million Mile Reflections, had "The Devil Went Down to Georgia" on it. I'll tell you a little story about that.

Mark: Yeah, please.

Andrew: And eat, please eat.

Charlie: We had written and rehearsed an album's worth of material. We were changing producers. We had guy that was coming in from L.A. named John Boylan, and he was bringing an L.A. engineer with him. We were fixing to go kind of a little different direction. And we had written and rehearsed an album's worth of material. And we got in the studio and came to the screaming realization we didn't have a fiddle song. Now, why we didn't realize that before we went in I don't know, but we took a break. We moved the equipment into a rehearsal studio, and I had this one line in mind that where it came from… I think it came from an old Stephen Vincent Benét poem called "Mountain Whippoorwill” that had to do with a fiddling contest. But that line stuck in my mind, and so we started, the drummer started playing a beat--

Mark: The line? What line?

Charlie: "Devil went down to Georgia."

Mark: Oh, that line.

Charlie: And the funny thing about it is this line is not in the poem, but I think the poem… I was a young fiddle player in high school when I read it, and I think it just kind of stuck with me. It was about a fiddle contest about a guy, a kid, that went and played in this fiddle contest against all these legendary fiddle players, you know, about they could do anything. They could fiddle down a bug from a sweet potato vine, fiddled down a possible from a mile-high tree, and all these legendary guys. But when he got to it, this little kid from back in the mountain said, "But nobody played about the whippoorwill. Nobody played about the sky and the trees.” And he goes through this long thing about it. And it was his time. And he walks on stage and he starts playing all this stuff. And when he finishes, everybody is just totally silent, and he thinks that he's bombed out. And then all of a sudden it explodes and he's, you know. So basically what he comes down to, he played his heart, you know, and that just stuck with me all those years. So I guess I started thinking along those lines and came up with it.

Andrew: Your heart's the devil.

Mark: And a deadline. Isn’t-- What did you say? See, millennial. He said your heart's the devil.

Andrew: I said the guy played from the heart. Then the devil went to Georgia and came out of yours.

Charlie: I don't know what he means.

Mark: I don't either.

Charlie: I don't speak millennials.

Mark: Out of all the songs you've written, is there any song you would not write if you had to do it over? Wouldn't waste the time?

Charlie: Yes.

Mark: What would that be?

Andrew: Which one?

Charlie: I wrote a song one time many years ago called "The Universal Hand,” where I lumped some deities together. I mean, I say lumped them together. I didn't lump them together, but like I acknowledged, you know, some not in a worshipful way, and I didn't mean to, you know. I didn't realize what I was doing at the time. I was not as versed as I was at the time. I wish I had not written that.

Andrew: What does it say?

Charlie: It just talks about Allah, talks about the thing that the universal hand is like. Cause I used to think, you know, as a lot of people do, I thought that, there's one God. And I thought he was, you know, all the, not the Buddhist or Indians or anything like that. But I thought that was, I thought that--

Andrew: God was God.

Charlie: I thought they had a very weird view of him, but I thought that, you know, I come to find out that there's no way once I got to reading the Bible. I was raised listening to what the preacher said in the pulpit as far as the Bible is concerned. We used to read two or three verses a night maybe, and that was about it. And I decided, I got so confused I left a Baptist, actually a Methodist, background, and started going to a Holiness church.

Andrew: Wholeness?

Mark: Holiness.

Charlie: Holiness, Pentecostal.

Andrew: Gotcha.

Charlie: I kinda jumped out of the frying pan into the fire from one thing I didn't understand into another thing I didn't understand. You know, this was very staid and very formal and everything, and then over here it was just, you know, wide open. And they, what they believed and how they believed it was totally different. And I just kinda got, I got so confused with the whole situation. It's all in the book I'm going to give you. I finally said, "I am going to…" And this was only later in life. "I'm gonna read the Bible for myself. I'm gonna to make my own. I'm gonna listen to… There's certain people that I totally agree with that they tell me things about Scripture that I believe, things about prophecy I believe, but I'm going to fill in the gaps myself. I'm going to find out what it is." And I have. I read the Bible, Old Testament and New Testament, cover to cover several times. I do it. So I made my own decisions, you know, about what is what. And of course, I come to find out that there is no way that Allah and God and Jehovah could be the same God. There's no way because the Muslims say God did not have a son. The first thing we found out in the New Testament is the whole thing is about God did have a son, and he's still got a son. And you know, it's like, there is no God but Jehovah. and the people who worship him are us and the Jews. The Jews are still waiting on Jesus. We're not. We know he's come. But I have always… That's the one part of the Bible that I don't quite grasp is the dispensation for the Jews because it says all of Israel will be saved. That's God's business. That's not my business. I'm willing to let that go, you know, but I know there's one God, and Allah is not God.

Andrew: It's all a bit of God's business, isn't it? Like I think that's why we can open up the Bible and discover, rather than be fearful of not interpreting it correctly or whatever, cause it's God's business.

Charlie: But when you come to something you don't understand, I mean, you know, that you can't quite get a grasp on like I was with that, you know, I think the best thing to do is turn it loose and leave it up him. I'll understand it better by and by.

By and by, when the morning comes

Charlie: See there.

When all the saints of God are gathered home
We wilt tell the story of how we've overcome
We will understand it better by and by

Mark: See, same church songs.

Charlie: I know.

Andrew: See, and I knew that millennial.

Mark: Let me ask you this. When did Jesus become, I mean, have you... You were raised around it. Did he grab your attention early, or have you gotten to know him through the years? How has he become important to you?

Charlie: Always, I have always been a believer. I have all… One of the things I wanted to decide when I started reading the Bible was I've been told all my life that Jesus died for me. I acknowledged it, I believe it, that he was coming back again. I acknowledge it, I believe it, that he was God's only son. I acknowledge it, I believe it. Now, why? Why did he have to die for me? What was the reason for that? That's what I didn't understand. And that's what I was looking for. And that’s what I found. That's what I was looking for by reading the Bible, by exhaustively reading the Bible. And the Old Testament, New Testament, the more you read it the more you realize it goes together. There is so much. You'd be reading one of the minor prophets, and all of a sudden, you go, “There's Jesus right there.” You know, I mean, maybe just a couple of lines or something, you know, but it'd be in these prophecies. It'll tell you about it. And you know, I wanted to know why. Why did he? And I've got my own way that I feel about why he did, why he had to die.

Mark: What do you think?

Charlie: He broke... There had never been… Adam was sinless. They took a bite out of that apple or cherry or peach or whatever it was. They probably don't grow here anymore. I mean, if it was that simple, all he had to do to keep from sinning--

Mark: I wouldn't wanna have it.

Charlie: Is stay away from that tree. I'd put a big fence around it. But you know, he was sinless, and then when he did that, and what he did was not actually eating the fruit. He was disobeying God. That, you know, God told him not to do that. Only thing he told them. You got all these trees out here. You got all this place. You got this beautiful lady that, you know, you'll keep company with, and you got all these things, and, you know--

Mark: Isn't that interesting?

Charlie: Just stay away from that tree right there. And he couldn't do it. So sin entered into mankind. And when we were born into sin, the Bible tells us we're born in sin. Jesus never sinned. He was born of woman.

Mark: He was born of woman.

Charlie: Not by man. He was born of woman. He was the only other sinless person who ever came along. And so far as… That broke the line of sin, right there.

Mark: Well, you know, it says that by one man… Sin all fell by one man, all are redeemed.

Charlie: He brought it in. One man took it out.

Mark: Yes.

Charlie: But it's like, you know, he shed the blood. There's parts of it I still don't understand. I take it on faith. But he broke the path of sin, which broke the devil's back.

Mark: Right.

Charlie: He took the devil's power away from him.

Mark: Correct.

Charlie: And so he's, it's like all he asked you to do is the hardest thing going, but you read in the Bible when you get to Romans, it says confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead and you will be saved. It don't go into all these little theological things that a lot of people put in there. That's the first. That's the starting thing. If you do that, you're going to want to try to live right. You're going to want to… You're going to want to… You ever stop and think about, and I do sometimes, about what you might want to be like to have a nail driven right through your hand right there, and the only way you can breathe as to push up the nails on your feet, and at any time… And I keep thinking, my gosh, if that had been me, I'd have had them angels down here just doing away with everybody, you know. I mean, but yet he hung there for, I think, six hours or something like that.

Mark: What if that would have been your son on that cross?

Charlie: I just can't, you know, I can't imagine.

Mark: What kind of love.

Charlie: But he broke it. He broke that chain. He broke that power and gets us all a chance to, you know, to live for him.

Mark: Can I ask one more question about all the cussing in your songs?

Andrew: You can, and then I'm going to take it somewhere else.

Charlie: I've had about all the millennial questions I can take anyway.

Andrew: You haven't even had one yet.

Mark: My mother Beverly, would like to ask a question. My mother, when she died, she didn't go to heaven. She jumped in me, and every now and then, she'll come out and ask you a question that sounds so much like her. Like when I was listening to some of your songs, there’s... You know, my dad, who has actually been to prison, he's one of the best men I've ever known, but he made a mistake, went to prison '76, and I'm thinking, he's been to prison. But if you were to say, you know, S, the S-word in front of him.

Andrew: What word is that?

Mark: I can't say it. We're on film. But he, oh, you'd think… Okay, so have you… Do you have any problem with that, with all that cussing you do in your songs?

Charlie: I don't cuss anymore.

Mark: Really?

Charlie: I cut all the cussing out now.

Mark: You really did?

Charlie: I did, yeah.

Mark: Now, why?

Charlie: Well, because I just feel like, you know, the song says the same thing without it.

Mark: Yeah. I really was expecting a funnier answer. I didn't mean to condemn you or anything.

Charlie: Not at all.

Andrew: It's actually a thoughtful answer, that it says everything without--

Mark: It is a great answer.

Charlie: The song says the same thing without it, and I just got to thinking that I don't need it. You know, I don't need that in there. I mean, I don't think you're going to go to hell for saying a cuss word by any means. I don't mean that. My pastor says that if, you know… We don't like that kinda talk, but if I hit my finger with a hammer, you better watch out. So I mean, it's in all of us. I don't think... I think we… That's one of the problems with some of the denominations that, and I'm not trying to offend anybody or anything, that they chased their young people off when they get to be old enough to leave because everything is a sin. Everything is a sin. I mean, everything’s a sin except breathing, and if you breathe through your mouth, it's a sin. And that was, that was one of the things with the church that I went to when I was young. I went from Methodist over here, and everything was a sin. You gotta wear your hair a certain way. You could not go to movies. You couldn't smoke cigarettes, which is a good thing probably. I didn't do me any good. I smoked them anyway, but I quit 30 years, no, 50 years ago.

Mark: So how did you get from the Pentecostal church, you must have been there a while, to the country singing?

Charlie: Basically, I just kinda… After I went to a Pentecostal church for a while, though I did not quit believing in all the things that go along with that, but I did get away from any kind of organized religion for a good while. And all I ever wanted to do, once I learned three chords on a guitar and learned to play a whole song, that's all I ever wanted to do. I wanted do nothing else. I cared nothing about doing anything else. I didn't wanna… I did other things because making a living as a musician in my part of the country was almost impossible at the time, but that was the desire of my heart. I worked daytime jobs for a good little while and got the chance to go play music for a living, so I've been doing it for 60 years now.

Andrew: In 60 years, I mean, you’re not only a veteran in music, you're also 82-years-old.

Charlie: I'm 82.

Andrew: So you're a veteran of life. And the past few years, I've noticed that you share a lot of your wisdom. I mean, you've already shared a lot of that wisdom with us now and experience in life, through your social media, which is, that's speaking to millennials, right, that you're offering this advice. Do you feel, kind of at this stage and place of your life, do you feel a certain responsibility to share what you’ve experienced with generations that come behind?

Charlie: I don't know if I would call it responsibility or not. I don't know if it goes that deep or not, but I feel like I should.

Andrew: Okay.

Charlie: There's some things in my life I feel like I should do, and I just naturally… I get up every morning and pull up a Bible verse. I put up a let's-all-make-a-day-count thing, which I feel like, some of them are just old sayings I've heard, but a lot of them I feel like the Lord sends them to me cause I never worry about them. I get up, I always come up with something, and I can't do that myself, you know. So I put up a prayer every day and a couple of other things that I do. And that's just my, that's my morning thing. And I get feedback from that a lot of times, you know, from people that say the Bible verse was something they needed to hear that day or that prayer was up they needed to hear that day. And I mean, it's not, I'm not a minister. I don’t mean that, but maybe that's my ministry. Maybe this part of it.

Andrew: Well, you are someone who's lived some life and experienced things. And I even look at the three of us around the table here. We're stair-stepped, you know. We've got you at the top, and then we've got Mark, and then we've got me, but I often--

Charlie: Is he calling us old in a millennial sort of a way?

Mark: You know what? When we get to heaven, let's go black jack his mansion.

Charlie: No, I'll tell you. As soon as you turn the cameras off, then let's just beat him up.

Mark: Yeah, show him who's old.

Andrew: No, but film it, film it. But I felt like, I love… And Mark, I think I can speak for you, and Charlie, I think, you know, I was telling you that story about my friend’s 6-year-old at the concert last night, who went home and his whole takeaway was Charlie. “I love Charlie. I love Charlie.” Music has a multigenerational aspect to it. You've always been friends with people older and younger. I've always been friends with people older and younger and found it very valuable. Do you think that kind of multigenerational relationship, like living life side-by-side as people of different ages, different generations, with different opinions and perspectives on things, is an important, like, should we coexist?

Charlie: I think so. I think people… I have friends that are all different ages. I come from a blue-collar background, and I tend to hang around with blue-collar people, you know. I like the cowboys and the mechanics, you know, and that sort of thing. I mean, as far as who I actually really enjoy spending time with, because we talk about the same things. I love to talk about horses and football and, you know, that kind of stuff. I wouldn't fit in the board room very well. But yeah, I got friends who are young. Of course, we play, we don't have the concentration of teenagers like we used to have back in our younger days, but we still have quite a few young kids. And the little kids, like the one you we’re talking about that was at a concert, we have a couple of songs, like "The Devil Went Down to Georgia,” like "The Legend of Wooley Swamp," that sort of thing, and so the little kids, that's a real… You made my day by telling me the story about the kid cause that's the… If you can reach them, you know, if you can touch them, the little kids...

Mark: At 82. Think about that.

Charlie: If you can touch them, then you're still kind of cooking along.

Andrew: Yeah. Well, you've opened up conversation, right? Even just through music. In fact, I think it was Roger and I that we're talking about, Roger that works with you, about why is it that I think his 6-year-old or 7-year-old granddaughter had a similar experience after being at a festival and rodeos and all this kind of fun stuff happening. And he said at the end of the trip, "What did you like the most?” And she said, “Charlie." And I think music's a part of that, but isn't there something… It's important that we not lose touch with every age. I mean, don't you think there's still a part of you that's 6-years-old?

Charlie: I hope so. I hope so. I truly hope so. I hope I never… I hope part of me never grows up. I think when you do, I think you lose something. I think that you see people sometimes, they're hard. I mean, they don't have any affinity for what we're talking about. It's just not part of their life, and it don't happen in their life. I never want to get that way. I never want to get to where I can't get a thrill out of picking up a baby.

Mark: Oh, yes.

Charlie: I love children.

Mark: I do too.

Charlie: I love kids. And you know, somebody walks in with a baby, I got to hold him.

Mark: I know, and it's kind of creepy. This day and age, they go, you know, you go... Back in my day, everybody’s throwing babies around, and now you gotta be careful.

Charlie: Well, you know, I never want to lose that thing of being able to, you know, be around little kids and enjoy being with them. I didn't want to lose that. I think you're losing a very important part of yourself if you get to where you don’t enjoy that sort of thing.

Andrew: Well, and talk about the discovery of God. Don't you think kids, or I... My experience with kids seems to be a very pure… There's pure motivation in their perspectives and the... I mean, they still have humanity in them, right? They're still manipulating their parents and controlling the situation. But it seems like they’re a little closer to God in some ways.

Charlie: Well, Jesus said the kingdom belonged to such as these, to the little children, because they have no problem believing. They don't rationalize anything. They just believe it. You know, daddy's the greatest man in the world. You know, my daddy just, he is the best. He can drive a nail. He can saw a board. He can ride a horse. He can do all kinds of stuff. He's the greatest man in the world, my daddy is. You know, that kind of faith, that kind of--

Mark: They have nothing to unlearn.

Charlie: No, that kind of thing about, you know, and prejudice, you know, racial prejudice.

Mark: That's a learned thing.

Charlie: That is a learned thing, and nobody is born, nobody is born, with prejudice toward anybody.

Mark: Now you come from a very prejudicial background, and I did too. How did you shuck that?

Charlie: When I grew up to the point that… That is a social thing. That is a social thing. You are raised in a world where everybody, every white person, figure they're better than Black people are. They figure that there's a difference. There's some kind of biological difference, you know. And you come up with that in your face all the time. See, everything I went to was segregated. I never went to school with a Black person. I never went to a movie with a Black person. I never... Every restaurant I ever, it was all segregated. When I got up and got away from home and started, got away from that particular set of friends and things, and started thinking for myself, it's like, this is silly. I mean, we're talking about other human beings that are the same thing we are, except they're just a different color.

Mark: They all bleed red.

Charlie: What's so special about us? You know, why are we… Why would God make them if they're that way, if they're inferior? You get to figure it out, and it finally dawns on you after a while. And it's a pretty sobering thing. It's something that you really fight with.

Mark: Don't you think getting outside of your little petri dish of Kentucky and seeing the wider world though has helped?

Charlie: Oh, definitely. Yeah, definitely. Absolutely. I mean, you go out and… But getting closer... But you know, one of the things too is when you're brought up in that particular... I'm talking about 70, 80 years ago when things were really, you know, really segregated, before when all the Jim Crow laws were in fact, you had no reason to associate with people of color.

Mark: Cause everything was separate.

Charlie: And they were as standoffish about associating with you as you were with them. You had two different reasons. Yours was prejudice, just pure racial prejudice. Theirs was fear.

Mark: Of course.

Charlie: You know, theirs was a fear that maybe there was a certain line… So you never really got a chance to really get to be, you know, know somebody.

Andrew: Isn't prejudice fear too, like in a different...?

Charlie: It is. It's definitely, it's definitely, you just hit the nail on the head. It is. Most people that are would never admit it to you, but it is. It definitely is. But the thing about it is is once you get away and you start thinking about, it's silly. It's just down right silly.

Mark: If they would just look at the children, cause the children of the whites and the Blacks will mix until they're taught not to, right? Even back then.

Charlie: Exactly, it would. But you never get very close to somebody of color, basically.

Mark: Back then.

Charlie: And you finally get out and you start getting around people, and you start to think, what is this? Why?

Andrew: Do you remember when that, kind of like a light bulb?

Charlie: It's not like a light thing. It was kind of like my salvation. It didn't just... You know, I kept waiting for a Damascus Road experience. I always wanted to get knocked off my horse. I wasn't too crazy about the blind part.

Mark: You want to hit the ground.

Charlie: You know, and it's like it just never happened that way with me. It's an awakening. And sometimes some people I guess have an immediate awakening, and some people it just takes… It's kind of a slow awakening, but it's just been a gradual thing with me with I believe this. I believe this. I’ve got this far. You know, you just kinda keep going like that. But it was the same way with coming out of that period of my life. It was not a, you know, a quick think. It was just like... In fact, you fight it to start with because it's been so ingrained in your mind. You catch yourself thinking that way and say, "Wait a minute," you know? But then it just keeps dawning on you and dawning on you, and you kind of grow along with it, you know? And you finally come to the conclusion. It's like, this is it. I mean, if I use one word to describe the state of racial prejudice when I was a child, when I was raised, I would say it was silly. And what I'm talking about, you had people that were filled with the Holy Spirit in churches, and they were still prejudice.

Mark: Yeah. How's that happen?

Charlie: I don't know. And as I look back on it--

Mark: That just proves the Holy Spirit doesn't really have many standards. He'll go anywhere.

Charlie: Watch yourself now.

Mark: I mean, I love that about him. He includes me then.

Charlie: When I look back on it, you know, it's like, it's hard. That's one of the hard things for me to explain. I mean, there was people that would just, I mean, they would... Like you said your daddy was about the cuss words. Oh, you didn't do that. You need to do this.

Andrew: There was no explanation of why or the thought process.

Charlie: But as far as, you know, they had this prejudice thing. And that's the thing I do not understand.

Andrew: Country music is a predominantly white audience even still, so is there ways that you incorporate your belief system, especially into--

Mark: Oh, into your music and your concerts?

Andrew: Yeah, because I would say probably your audiences, who are showing up to concerts at least, are predominantly Caucasian.

Charlie: Most of them. Yeah, most of them are. I don't really, you know, the thing about it is what you find in that particular way is not so much has so much to do with the philosophical part of what we're taking about. It has to do with the kind of music people want.

Andrew: Right.

Charlie: And you know, that people show up at the kind of music they like. But we have some people of color sometimes they come to our concerts.

Andrew: Is there a way though that you're able to even… Cause I agree with you on that. It's based on just tastes, influence, et cetera, of them showing up. But there are probably plenty of people in your audience anywhere who still have some of that racial prejudice still within them. Do you find... And maybe you don't feel responsible--

Mark: Any way to chip away at it?

Charlie: I don't really get involved. I see we're talking politics now, and I don't do politics on stage.

Mark: I don't either.

Charlie: I mean, if you read my… You say you read my social media, I give them a fit on that.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah.

Charlie: But I don't do politics on stage. I figure people spend their hard earned money to come see me play and want entertainment.

Mark: I agree.

Charlie: So that's what I do on stage.

Andrew: Which creates a safe space.

Charlie: Now this, I'll talk to you about it all day long if we're doing something like this, but I just don't do it on stage. I don't think that's a place for it.

Mark: I agree.

Charlie: And so I don’t. I couldn't really say that I consciously did that. Now if somebody asked me a question about it, I'll be glad to answer them. But you know, I just think it's time… They come to hear "Wooley Swamp"

Andrew: Yeah. And that's kind of honoring of the music, and it keeps music a safe place, you know. But you're also talking about holding your tongue a little bit. I've heard you, I've read and heard you talk about the value of holding your tongue, which you're a talker. You're willing to speak your opinion and perspective when asked and stuff. But it seems that you also understand the value of holding your tongue. How do you discern when to speak out and when to maybe shut up?

Charlie: Well, I think it depends on what you're talking about and how you feel. You know, it took me a long time to figure out what pearls before swine is. I mean, you stop--

Mark: Do not throw your pearls before a swine.

Charlie: There's probably a thousand different interpretations of that in people's minds, but to me, it means, you know, why are you even talking to this person? I get people on social media sometimes that tell you what an idiot you are. They can't tell you why, but they can always tell you what an idiot you are. And I first, when I started, I started trying to explain things to people. I come to find out there's no explaining to these people because they don't go into a conversation being willing to see both sides of it. If you can't see both sides of a conversation, it's like throwing your pearls to swine. If you're unwilling, if me and you are sitting here and we're arguing about something and we're willing to say, you know, that you're willing to accept my part of it and at least let me explain it to you and I'm the same way with you, then we got something going. If you're implacable and totally reject everything that I've got to say and I feel the same way about you, you know, you wouldn’t throw me your pearls, I wouldn't throw you my pearls. So sometimes it's just better to hold your chumps. People learn stuff better by beating their own head against a wall. You know? I mean, I beat my head against the wall. It's a wonder I got a hair left on my head. I don't have many. But that's how I learned, mostly, was the hard way. I mean, learning the hard way. And most people, there's a lot of people that are that way. Some people can learn lessons the easy way. I never have been able to. I've always had to get out and live it. And you know, once I lived it, once I learned it, I got it though.

Andrew: Yeah. Well, and then you have something to share too.

Charlie: I ain't gonna put my finger in the same fire every time, you know.

Mark: That plays out in your songs, too, I would think.

Charlie: Oh, it does, yeah. Lessons learned.

Mark: I love the story I heard from a lady last night at the Michael W. Smith event when you were up there singing, and evidently, she was at your Christmas party. And she said, she said, "Charlie has a Christmas party. And anybody..." You know, like people come and there's a gay couple that comes. There's a... I don't know.

Charlie: Mixed race couple.

Mark: Mixed race couple. I mean, you just throw your doors open. How did that happen?

Charlie: It's not like that. We kind of take in the strays basically. But we started out with every Christmas Eve we'd have some friends that would come by, and then we started inviting different people. You know, it's sad to me to think about being by yourself at Christmastime.

Mark: Oh, me too, yeah.

Charlie: I'm never by myself. I'm always with, you know, with my people that have been with me… For a lot of people that work for me, have been with me… They're like my family.

Mark: And your wife has been with you for 55 years.

Charlie: Yeah, 55 in September, you know. And I'm always with somebody. To stop and think about somebody being by themselves at Christmastime and going Christmas to McDonald’s, Christmas Eve night, if they can find one open, is a sad sort of thing. And so we started, if we run across somebody like that, we'd say, you know… Maybe it'd be somebody working in a band that was knew that couldn’t go home or something, and we'd have them out. But we started having people out, and it turned into about 30 people usually that come out. And it just happened that a lot of these people are just, you know, people you learn that you pick up and everything, and you're welcome at Charlie's house on Christmas Eve night. And you're gonna have to listen to the Bible be read, listen to me say a prayer, but if you're willing to put up with that.

Andrew: Well, that's cool. That's different walks of life.

Mark: I just love that because the image I had of him, right? I didn't know Charlie Daniels till today.

Charlie: He thought I was gonna hit him when he walked in.

Mark: No, I did not. I mean, the image is the sunglasses. I mean, honestly, Hank Williams, Jr., Charlie Daniels, that same kind of... That's what's in my mind cause the music, and then I get here and the man's a reader and a Bible scholar and loves the Lord. And I'm not saying you can't, I mean… What am I saying?

Andrew: You just had a different idea.

Mark: Yeah, and I like you a lot.

Charlie: I like you a lot too. You're a good fellow.

Mark: You are too. You remind me so much of my buddy JD, but you're like an educated--

Andrew: A nice one.

Mark: Oh, JD was phenomenal.

Charlie: You know who I met last night? It was one of the Goodman boys.

Mark: Rick

Charlie: He looked just like his daddy. It was freaky. He walked into the dressing room, and wow, Howard, you look so young. He just looked like him.

Mark: Did you know Howard and Vestal?

Charlie: I didn't really. I got to sing with Vestal one time on a… They put a bunch of us together on an awards show or something, and I got to sing with her. But I never really got to know her. I got to, I got to be around her a little bit.

Mark: She'd love you.

Charlie: Oh, she could… This woman had a voice on her. Wow, she was just something else. That's one thing I said when we got through. I said, "I got to sing with Vestal Goodman."

Mark: Isn't that something? Yeah, she was, oh, that voice is like a tone.

Charlie: Well, she was training for the opera, wasn't she?

Mark: Well, that's what I heard.

Charlie: I heard her say one time she had intended to go to the opera stage.

Mark: Isn't that interesting cause I would think that is such a different voice in the opera, so she must've been able to do the big head tone too.

Andrew: She had the control though.

Charlie: I think she could do anything with her voice she wanted to, just about it. It was amazing. Some people just have a little golden sort of thing, you know, that their voice when it comes out. I sound like a fog horn.

Andrew: Yeah, but the 6-year-olds.

Charlie: I feel like a fog horn blowing in different keys.

Mark: You're an entertainer.

Andrew: Hey fog horn, I got one more question for you.

Charlie: Sure.

Andrew: Okay. So here's a little quote of yours. "I speak from experience and paid a price for my repentance."

Charlie: Right.

Andrew: Is there an experience or a season of experiences that you look back and you think, either with regret or just that cost me something, you know?

Charlie: Well, if you tend to dwell on mistakes, if you tend to dwell on that sort of, yeah, there would be, but what I've found... And I have done that. I mean, I've sat around and, you know, thought about things that I wish I hadn't have done or things I wish I had done or something like that. But that's just about a waste of time when you get right down to it. I'm not a what-if-er, you know. Stop and think, well, what if I had not come to Nashville when I had a chance. You know, I don't think about stuff like that cause it doesn't make any difference. I did come. And you can sit around and what-if yourself into an early grave, or you can worry yourself to death about stuff you can't go back. And you know, that's the thing that took me so long to learn about Jesus Christ and what the wondrous thing that he'd done about forgiving our sins. You know, it's like if you carry that around with you, which I did for many, many years. We all do, until you find out what to do with it. You know, if you carry that around with you, it will kill you. I mean, it will literally make an old person out of you because you’ve got that on you. And it's like that's what he said. Give it to me. I'll do away with it. You won't ever see it again, and I won’t ever think about it again. You know, it's all gone.

Mark: Can't beat that, can you?

Charlie: And you know, till you get to that point though, the things you're talking about, yeah, you could definitely. I have paid some price. I look at it as lessons learned. I try to learn lessons from things that happen. I cut a finger off on a rip saw, so I don't do rip saws anymore. You know, I broke my arm on a post hole digger. I'm don't do post hole diggers anymore. I mean, I'm being a little--

Mark: You really did?

Charlie: Yeah, I did, man.

Mark: You don't be messing with them picking fingers.

Charlie: Man, I didn't want to. I cut this off in high school.

Mark: That was a long time ago.

Charlie: So I pick with these two fingers, so it don't make no difference. That's just superfluous. At least that's what I tell myself anyway.

Andrew: Yeah, as long as I keep the middle one.

Charlie: Yeah, you gotta learn some… Of course, that's pretty drastic, those kinds of lessons, you know.

Andrew: And those are physical lessons.

Charlie: You learn about, you know, like I said, I'll never stick my finger in that fire again, you know. I ain't going to fool with no more post hole diggers, no more rip saws. I ain't got to be… I'm not good with machinery.

Mark: I'm not either. What are you doing with any of that anyway?

Andrew: Especially as a picker.

Mark: Don't you have people to take care of that?

Charlie: I'm a rancher, man. We're digging post holes.

Mark: I have people.

Andrew: That dig your post holes?

Mark: Yes.

Charlie: I'm just not good around machinery. I really am not.

Mark: Well, then don't do it.

Andrew: But you learned. You don't anymore.

Charlie: This is good for me. I didn't eat nothing. I need to do this every meal--

Andrew: You need to talk more.

Charlie: And I'd lose some weight.

Mark: I know. Well, you ate good.

Andrew: Oh yeah, I was fine listening.

Charlie: He's a millennial. He can eat--

Mark: I know. I'm trying to pretend it, but I get so involved in the conversation.

Charlie: We have this old manners. We don't eat while—

Mark: That's right.

Charlie: Well, guys, it's been fun.

Mark: I've loved it.

Charlie: Let's do it again some time.

Mark: I would love to come talk to you sometime about stuff.

Charlie: Let's do it.

Mark: Like I used to with JD.

Charlie: JD Sumner, you're talking about.

Mark: I miss him. Yeah. You know what? I really don't miss him. Let me tell you. I said all to him I had to say. It was an amazing five years. When I first met him, first of all, we were at one of them singings with everybody sitting around. You've seen them. I'm over here, Homecoming, and I see George Younce and JD Sumner, the two old guys, over there, and I'm the young guy right at this time. And I see JD lean over and whisper something in George Younce's ear, and then George dies laughing. And immediately, I said, "I'm going to know him.” I want to know funny people. I love funny people. And so, I asked him, his wife had died. I said, “You wanna go get breakfast?” And so we started having breakfast together. Well, we were in the car one day, and he says to me, “Well, if I get to heaven…" You know, he had that deep voice. He said, "If I get to heaven, it'd be by the skin of my teeth.” And Beverly rared up. It's my mother. And I said, “JD, ain't nobody getting in there by the skin of their teeth.” I said, "It's the blood of Jesus that'll get us in.” He said, "Well, I was raised Church of God where if your hair touched your ears you're going to hell, you know.” And I said, "Well, let’s go study it together.” So I got The Grace Awakening. You remember? You remember that, when hair… 1 Corinthians 11:14 "Doth not even nature itself teach you it's a shame for a man to have long hair.” We had that one memorized with John 3:16 back in my day. You know, that was a big deal, anyway. So we started studying grace together. And I would read this book, and then I'd go over to his house at night and we'd discuss, you know, just talk about it. I'd try to get it down, you know, to… He had an eighth grade education I think. And so we would just, and then he would take these thoughts and mull them over and regurgitate them down to a third. I mean, just, he would come up with some nugget that you really got it, you know, the grace of God. I mean, that was really a… Becoming a recovering fundamentalist has been my next step. I was born again in the Baptist church, but I have really become… I found out, like I said, Jesus is a lot nicer than they told me.

Charlie: Is the camera off?

Andrew: What are you about to say?

Charlie: We just lost the Baptist audience.

Mark: No, they know me.

Charlie: I don't care.

Mark: They know how I think.

Charlie: The hardest... I wrote a chapter on my salvation. It was the hardest in the book I'm going to give you. It was the hardest chapter for me to write.

Mark: Why?

Charlie: I knew what I wanted to say, but I wanted to make sure that everybody else knew what I was saying. And I really labored over it. And I really thought about it and put a lot of thought into it and everything. And I think I’ve, I think I've got it pretty much nailed as far as the way that I feel about things. And one of the things that I addressed, which was like, you know, if drinking wine is bad, why did Jesus take perfectly good water and make wine out of it?

Mark: Good question.

Charlie: You know, and that's what you get to thinking about when you're... Those kinds of questions, these little theological questions, I mean, that one is just one.

Mark: And if you couldn't be drunk with wine, why would he say don't be?

Charlie: Why? Yeah. Why is it wrong for women to cut their hair? Why? Show me in the New Testament. Show me the New Testament where it's wrong. You know, why? You know, these… I wrote a song some years ago called "The New Pharisees.” And it's like, you know--

Mark: Do you remember the lyric?

Charlie: I can't remember exactly. It's been a long time ago, but I did, I remember doing it. It's like, it's about everything, everything is a sin. Everything is a sin. Well, why? It's all this superficial stuff. It's what you're supposed to be getting past. It's what's here.

Mark: Exactly.

Charlie: It’s not like, you know, what your face looks like or your hair looks like. What I see here with humanity, they got everything but a bone in their nose, but they're sold out Christians and love the Lord.

Mark: Yes, I know.

Charlie: I mean, you mean to tell me just because a kid has earrings and long hair--

Andrew: Yeah, their physical appearance.

Charlie: And the stuff that he can't be a Christian? I don't see any place in the Bible that says that.

Mark: That's what happened, I mean, by getting out of your petri dish.

Charlie: That's what I'm talking about. It's like everything... And, you know, they run the young people off.

Andrew: Well, it's human control. It's literally just a--

Charlie: It's Pharisee-ism. It's exactly what it is. It's Pharisee-ism.

Andrew: What's the purpose of it is what I've always wondered.

Mark: It's control. Everybody has to look alike.

Charlie: You're exactly right.

Andrew: But why? Then I would say but why?

Mark: I don't know. That's the problem--

Andrew: That's the problem. There is no--

Charlie: And I like happy people, you know. I don't want somebody with one of these.

Mark: Where's the joy of the Lord?

Charlie: If you can't find it, if you ain't happy about it, why are you doing it? I mean, you ain't gonna be happy here, you ain't going to be happy there.

Andrew: Yeah, that's why I drink.

Charlie: Yeah.

Mark: He's Presbyterian.

Charlie: Oh, that explains it. That explains a lot.

Andrew: Ding, ding, ding.

Charlie: I went to a Presbyterian church. I went to all kinds of churches. I went to, I mean, I went to all kinds. But then there is an elitism in that particular thing.

Mark: There's a what?

Charlie: An elitism.

Mark: Elitism.

Andrew: It's kind of an academic faith.

Mark: In the Pentecostal or Presbyterian church?

Charlie: In the Pentecostal church, or used to be. I don't know if he's still there or not because I ain't been to one real heavy duty one—

Andrew: Oh, in the Pentecostal?

Charlie: In the Pentecostal church, yes. If you don't do it like we do it, you ain't saved.

Mark: I think that's mellowing.

Charlie: I hope so.

Mark: I really… I see that the ones that... Like I mean, I see a lot of younger people that are in love with Jesus and they're letting go of that stuff, which I had to too. When I learned that it was okay--

Charlie: But you know what I'm talking about?

Mark: Yeah, for a woman to wear pants or… When I learned that, it was like removing a cornerstone from my life. So I've now deduced it all down to one cornerstone, and that's Jesus. And if we could teach the kids that, then they wouldn't have to grow up--

Andrew: I think they intuitively know it.

Mark: Remove all that other crap.

Andrew: That Jesus, that's the end all be all. I think they intuitively know it, which is why they don’t care about having a tattoo and why they don't care about... Like they don’t... I don't think intuitively they think that is somehow a detractor from them being a complete disciple of Jesus.

Charlie: Well, a church I went to, there’s people there that will tell you that church over there’s not going to heaven. They don't shout. They don't do this. They don't do that. You know, and it's like--

Mark: I don't hear that much--

Charlie: I could understand… That's what gets so confusing after awhile, you know? It's like--

Andrew: Cause then it's like which one is it?

Mark: Well, that's why you had to go find it out for yourself.

Charlie: Yeah, yeah, work it out.

Andrew: Now you can come to the Charlie Daniels church every Sunday morning at 8:30 a.m.

Mark: "Every head bowed, every eye closed. I'm Jerry Falwell. If you will help me build Liberty Mountain, I'll send you Macel and the kids. 1-800-SEND-CASH."

Charlie Daniels performing “How Great Thou Art”

When Christ shall come with shout of acclamation
And take me home, what joy shall fill my heart
Then I shall bow in humble adoration
And there proclaim, oh my God, how great Thou art

Then sings my soul, my Savior God, to Thee
How great Thou art, ohh, how great Thou art
Then sings my soul, my Savior, God to Thee
How great Thou art, how great Thou art

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Watch Our Other Episodes:

S03, E01: Orphans No More featuring Lisa Harper
S03, E02: Perfectly Imperfect featuring Wynonna Judd
S03, E03: Surviving Miscarriage featuring Jason Crabb and Sonya Isaacs
S03, E04: Fear Factors featuring Patsy Clairmont
S03, E05: A New Normal featuring Jaci Velasquez and Nic Gonzales
S03, E06: Suicide: Hiding in Plain Sight featuring Mark Means and Wes Hampton
S03, E07: Personality by Number featuring Ian Morgan Cron and Lisa Whelchel
S03, E08: An Intellectual Faith featuring Eric Metaxas
S03, E09: Finding Beauty in Brokenness featuring Julie Roberts
S03, E10: The Guatemala Episode
S03, E11: Family Matters featuring Lynda Randle and Michael Tait

12/17/19 12/17/19

The Guatemala Episode

Mark and Andrew take Dinner Conversations on the road and overseas to Guatemala to visit with and learn from their neighbors in Latin America!

Transcript

Mark: This episode is about Guatemala. We went to Guatemala. You know, I hate leaving the country. I don't wanna use my passport. I've traveled outside the country all I want to. In fact, I don't like to leaving Houston anymore.

Andrew: A world onto its own.

Mark: But I went to Guatemala with ChildFund, and I'm so glad I did.

Andrew: It was a really eye opening time. We got to talk to a really unique young woman who was a sponsored child with ChildFund for years and now is a full functioning adult in Guatemala giving back to her own community, and the same with a young man who is now in college.

Mark: They were raised up in the program, and now they're ministering to kids.

Andrew: Yeah, and they're part of community development from a long term standpoint.

Mark: I love that.

Andrew: So we got to actually go. This is the first time we've done Dinner Conversations overseas.

Mark: I know.

Andrew: Yeah, don't you want to do it a lot?

Mark: No.

Andrew: But we did it this time.

Mark: But I'm glad did this one, and there's one seat left at the table and it's yours. Let's join the conversation.

Andrew: We're in Guatemala City, and we're with our friends at ChildFund, which they're longtime friends of yours, going to visit two different now young adults who were for years sponsored children. So we're going to see kind of how their lives turned out. We don't know until we see. Well, we do know.

Mark: Well, we do know.

Andrew: Yeah.

Mark: They're doing very well, and most of the kids, you know, this is a sample of probably many of the kids that have gone through the program. You see a success story, you know, after you've supported them for years and years and years like you have and I have.

Andrew: And you will.

Mark: And it's amazing to watch how they've developed and been blessed by this ministry. So we're going to check it out.

Andrew: Really the end all be all is that this was on Mark's bucket list to go overseas with me.

Mark: Oh yes.

Andrew: You know where we're going?

Mark: We're going to Mirna's house.

Andrew: That's right, Mirna’s house. She was sponsored by a ChildFund sponsor for 13 years, the same sponsor, which I think that's cool. We've sponsored kids for years too. And she's now an accountant.

Mark: And she is a success story, and we're going to meet her.

Mirna Toj

Mark: Mirna, you were a child sponsored by ChildFund. How has that affected you and your family for the better?

Mirna: It was nice. Since childhood to date, it has been incredible. It was very nice because I used to go to ChildFund to study every Thursday. I was very little.

Andrew: What would you say is the key ingredient, the main thing, that helped you to get to where you are today as being a part of the ChildFund programs?

Mirna: What helped me so much was the training because they would encourage us and have us do presentations or learn about a lot of things. That’s when I began to develop personally. They helped us get what we had inside and be able to express it on the outside, all in a calm environment. We were able to be ourselves.

“[ChildFund] helped us get what we had inside and be able to express it on the outside, all in a calm environment. We were able to be ourselves.”

— Mirna Toj

Andrew: Would you say that being a sponsored child or how did it directly impact where you are today? What do you do? What do you do now?

Mark: For a living?

Mirna: I now work for a company called Grupo Ayser. I’m an accounting assistant doing the accounting.

Andrew: So it sounds like because of the community interaction of the ChildFund programs that you became more independent, that you were able to be independent as an adult.

Mirna: Yes, that is true.

Mark: Well, your English is as good as my Spanish.

Mirna: Thank you.

Andrew: What was your relationship like with the families who sponsored you?

Mirna: Throughout my time, there were two. They sent me letters for my birthday, and for Christmas, they gave us a gift. We wrote letters, they took photos of us, and we would draw them pictures even of small things.

Andrew: Was it ever interesting to you that someone from another country that you didn't know invested in you and your family's life in the way that they did? Did you ever wonder why?

Mirna: No.

Andrew: You just said okay?

Mark: Just grateful.

Mirna: But it’s great, it’s great.

Mark: So you would recommend people sponsoring children. I mean, you're a success story, and we're very grateful 'cause I've been sponsoring children for many many years and haven't been able to, not long enough to see them come to fruition like you have. So we're very proud of you.

Mirna: I really appreciate this. Really, it’s incredible for me, and ChildFund has been a highlight in my opinion.

Andrew: What did you learn by being a sponsored child? Did you learn anything new about God, or did your relationship with God change at all?

Mirna: Yes, the program helped me to develop. I am also in a group of Catholic youth. I’m Catholic. God has helped me a lot, as well as the institution. It has helped me to be more humble, calm, and grateful for what I have. I really am so grateful. Thank you.

Mark: Thank you so much for preparing our lunch and spending time with us and sharing your beautiful home.

Andrew: Yeah.

Mark: And your nieces and nephews, what a wonderful family you have.

Andrew: Do you ship tortillas to Tennessee? This is a real tortillas.

Mark: This is the real deal.

Andrew: We think in the United States we know how to make tortillas but not like this.

Mirna: It's delicious.

Mark: Delicioso. Is that the right word?

Andrew: Is this your mother?

Mirna: Yes.

Andrew: So you are Mirna's mother?

Manuela: Yes, I am Mirna’s mother.

Andrew: Are you proud of her?

Mark: Thank you so much.

Andrew: Thanks for sharing your daughter with us.

Mark: Thank you.

Manuela: Thank you for coming to our home. Thank you for visiting us, my daughter, my husband, my children, my daughter-in-law, and my grandchildren.

Mark: No wonder you want to spend every weekend with her. What a wonderful mother you have. I'd want to spend every weekend with her too. She works during the week and spends weekends with her parents.

Andrew: You can. We're leaving you here.

Mark: Okay, I'm moving in. Where is my bedroom?

Geraldine de Vera, Sponsorship Manager, ChildFund Guatemala

Geraldine: What I've heard from Mirna is that at one point of her life she realized that she could do things by her own and she can go through in order to overcome what she has to overcome in order to succeed in life, and this makes me think about sponsorship because a sponsorship is a journey that begins when they are toddlers and ends when they get to the young life. It's not one moment in life that makes the difference. The difference comes because there is a series of efforts and activities that are very well prepared in order to let them know and also prepare them to see life differently, to see life that they can achieve things that maybe they couldn’t think that before. And that's what we saw in Mirna's example. That was for me the moment in which we can realize how the intervention of our activities have done its job. For me, sponsorship is a contribution that comes from your heart in which we can see a series of events that makes a difference in not only one child but in lots of children who are part of our province.

Mark: What a wonderful day we had with Mirna and her family. It was such a good soup too.

Andrew: Yeah, it was a good soup. It had some plants that we saw in their gardens.

Mark: They grow everything.

Andrew: They do, for their family, including coffee beans. I tried one.

Mark: There's no Kroger near here.

Andrew: There is no Kroger, absolutely not. However, we learned a lot from Mirna about how sponsorship really impacted not only her, but what I love about sponsorship is that it has a ripple effect of impacting people, her entire family, generations impacted by that, and the spiritual takeaway for me was Mirna kept talking about her confidence, how confidence had been boosted and how she had really learned about the value of herself. I think a lot of people because of their circumstances — we live in a developing country, we are poor — we don't have value. I don't think that's true at all, but sometimes it's hard to connect the truth that you are loved, you're valued by God until someone steps in to say, "Here's why you're valuable. You can make a living for yourself. You can change the poverty that has been a part of your family for generations."

Mark: And now we're going to meet David, right?

Andrew: Jorge

Mark: Jorge. Is it Jorge?

Andrew: It's Jorge.

Mark: I thought it was David.

Andrew: I don't know who David is.

Mark: Oh, well, we might meet David.

Jorge Armira

Mark: Jorge, this is your university I hear?

Jorge: This is the University Rafael Landivar where I am currently studying.

Andrew: There's a program that you, a ChildFund program called Points of Encounter, that you're a big fan of, that you really like. Tell me what Points of Encounter is.

Jorge: ChildFund’s active youth project was born to empower young people to develop and be leaders in their own communities. At the Point of Encounters where I was, we had the opportunity to train multiple children in computers and also in some math. We went on to train older youth and gave workshops for children in schools. It was a nice program that gave us the power to focus on the community.

Andrew: He talks like I do.

Mark: What do you think it’s important to give back after you've been sponsored, give back to the ChildFund?

Jorge: Well, I believe that all who are sponsored who received the support of ChildFund should return what they have learned to the community. That’s why I mentioned the active youth project because, in the Points of Encounter, the focus was to return the knowledge that we had gained toward children and toward schools. So we trained children in bullying prevention, violence prevention, and reproductive health in sixth grade, for example. So yes, this is a commitment that all sponsored youth should have when we receive such benefits.

Andrew: Why do you think it's also important as a Guatemalan man for you to give back in your country? Some people would have received the help from an organization like ChildFund and seen new opportunities, better opportunities, and moved out of the country, perhaps maybe to the states or somewhere for the “best opportunity.” Why did you feel it was important to continue to invest back into your own community and country?

Jorge: I think it’s important to keep investing through ChildFund in the communities because it is a program that impacts children in their local areas. A child who is sponsored does not think the same as a child who isn’t because the sponsored child is openminded. The mentality of someone who has been sponsored is not to leave but to work here and fight for your people, right? So I don’t think of leaving, but ChildFund should continue investing in children because these children will be able to make their own thoughts and judgements. The majority of those who have left, it’s because they did not have direct support.

“A child who is sponsored does not think the same as a child who isn’t because the sponsored child is openminded. The mentality of someone who has been sponsored is not to leave but to work here and fight for your people.”

— Jorge Armira

Mark: Thank you so much, Jorge. Thank you all for allowing us to come to your wonderful country and see what what ChildFund is doing here.

Andrew: Yeah.

Mark: Cheers.

Andrew: How do you say cheers?

Jorge: Salud.

Andrew: Don't drink the water. No, I'm just kidding.

Brenda Sulamita, ChildFund Guatemala Consultant

Brenda: I have worked with ChildFund for more than four years in sponsorship, so I can say that difference… It starts everyday because every kid has a different story, has different elements, and you know our country is small but our difference are many. ChildFund is an opportunity to provide decent eduction programs in different ways.

Andrew: You were telling us yesterday how you still work in the field of inspiring education, education being the foundation block for ending poverty in people’s lives.

Brenda: Exactly. Exactly, because in the past because some projects and programs provide materials…

Andrew: Food.

Brenda: Exactly. But the idea is how you can provide food and money, at the same time what it means in terms of nutritional health and how the ChildFund forums can help kids, families, the whole community to support them.

Andrew: Themselves

Brenda: Exactly.

Andrew: Can you tell me what the likelihood is of Mark being kidnapped this trip? High likelihood?

Mark: High? That’s the only thing I haven’t done.

Geraldine de Vera, Sponsorship Manager, ChildFund Guatemala

Geraldine: ChildFund programs and sponsorship programs have a holistic approach with children because sponsorship is not only benefiting just one child but for example there are guide mothers that are in charge of training or there are 10 or 20 mothers that have one, two, three or more children. So this makes our approach more broader and it makes that more people, even though they are not sponsored, but other children from other, from the community are benefiting from these trainings. And we also are leaving capacity installed in community because these guide mothers already empower other mothers to repeat the same trainings with other mothers in order to have a generational impact to other children. Guatemala, nurturing with tenderness, that's not so common. You can think it's common, but here is just given them where to live and something to eat. It was like, okay, that’s my job as mother or father, but taking care of children, playing with them is not part of our culture. With these programs, they have learned how important is to take time with our children in order to nurture them and to promote their well-being.

Calixta Otzoy Simon, Guide Mother

Andrew: My name is Andrew.

Calixta: My name is Calixta.

Andrew: First, explain to me what a guide mother is or does.

Calixta: A guide mother has to teach kids that they must respect each other first. Then comes welcoming them, and then we move on to homework. Then we sing a song and work on motor skills, sociability, and language.

Andrew: And why is it important for children to receive an education in your opinion?

Calixta: You can learn from a young age. Even when you are little, you already have a little conceptual knowledge. Children can form thoughts on what they want to be and do.

Andrew: How has being a guide mother changed you as a woman or a mom?

Calixta: There is a difference. Children will learn more when you give of yourself, but when you don’t, they don’t learn. That’s why the guide mothers are there, to teach them how it is done. It takes time. Children need love. You can’t teach without it. You have to teach with patience.

“Children need love. You can’t teach without it. You have to teach with patience.”

— Calixta Otzoy Simon

Andrew: How has it changed the community to have the mother program in the community? Has it changed how all the children... Has it changed how you treat children other than even your own? You know, are all the children treated differently?

Calixta: Things are different today than before. Before, there was a lot of abuse to the children, but now it’s not like that. That is where education comes in. I believe education helps people treat children better. Before, if you did a bad thing, they would hit you, but that is not the case now. Now, you first explain what is good and what is bad, how doing good brings good things to your life and your future.

Andrew: So in essence or in summary, you're learning to love your children differently. Is that true?

Calixta: Yes. We have learned to treat them with love.

Andrew: Gracias.

Romelia, ChildFund Sponsored Student

Romelia: In my community, we have a lot of children who do not study. So a dream I have is to help the children because, in my case, I am studying, but there are many children from my community who don’t have the same opportunity to study because their parents lack resources. If they study, they will not work. I hope that in my community change arises so they can study and achieve their goals because there are many children here who have goals. I also have dreams that I want to achieve.

Student 1: I want to become a professional nurse.

Student 2: I want to be a translator.

Student 3: I want to study.

Student 4: I want to be a nurse.

Student 5: I want to be a singer.

Student 6: I want to be an officer.

Student 7: I want to be a lawyer.

Student 8: I want to be a nurse.

Student 9: I want to be a musician.

Mark: Thank you for watching Dinner Conversations.

Andrew: We had such a good time in Guatemala. Don't forget to sponsor a child today. Partner with us by sponsoring a child in Guatemala just like the ones you saw on this episode. Go to childfund.org/dinnerconversations. And you know what? We'll see you next time.

Mark: Yes.

Learn more here: childfund.org/dinnerconversations.

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Watch Our Other Episodes:

S03, E02: Perfectly Imperfect featuring Wynonna Judd

S03, E03: Surviving Miscarriage featuring Jason Crabb and Sonya Isaacs