Back to Basics featuring CeCe Winans
Iconic gospel artist CeCe Winans, who is nominated for 3 Grammy Awards for her latest record Believe For It, shares her unexpected journey into starting Nashville Life Church and becoming a pastor. Her son Alvin Love III, pastor of Nashville Life Church, also joins us to talk about the Church in the 21st Century.
Transcript
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Mark: I first heard CeCe Winans years ago, I think it was on...
Andrew: PTL Club.
Mark: Jim and Tammy's show. With her brother BeBe. And I have watched her blossom into this incredible beautiful woman of God, and the smile! There's something magical about the CeCe Winans smile. You just feel at home when she smiles at you, and then her son comes along, but she and her husband founded a church here in Nashville.
Andrew: That's right, they founded a church. Here in Nashville. It was not what they were expecting. I think they were on their way moving outside of Nashville. And yet Nashville kept them grounded because of their son's spiritual experience while he was in Australia, which eventually called him back to here, helped them build the church. And now is the pastor of the church.
And I have to say of all the conversations we've had, you know, we've had some really cool people on here, but I am a true fan boy of CeCe Winans. So I'm getting even like ticklish inside just thinking about having this conversation and watching it again.
Mark: Well, we need to move along. There's one seat left at the table, and it's yours. So let's join this conversation.
Andrew: Yeah, my first foray into, so I grew up in a predominantly. Yeah, so I grew up in a predominantly Caucasian and Hispanic environment west of Fort Worth, getting into west Texas territory. We had a high school 2,500 kids and one African American.
CeCe: One.
Andrew: So my, my mother grew up in New Orleans though, was highly influenced by Motown music in the 60s and brought that into our household and loved it. You know, my brothers and me, but I was immediately drawn to music from African American heritage and traditions. And I remember, on our kind of white CCM radio station, you and BeBe really were the first, my introduction to, what I would say, Black music in that kind of environment. So we went to a show when I was 10-years-old of yours.
CeCe: Come on.
Andrew: I'm serious. And yeah, yeah, yeah. And so we waited, I loved music, I played the piano, all this kind of stuff. And they had heard, I think they bought a CD at the merch table or something, they said, you know, she's gonna come sign afterwards. Do you want to meet her? I was like, I don't know, you know, kind of thing. So I waited in line, got up there. I get up to the front of the table. I mean, this was, I don't know where this was like, maybe Prestonwood Baptist or something like that. A big church, you know, you stood up and you said, "Hi, I'm CeCe," when I got to the front of the line, and I was like, I know who you are. You can sit back down. That's what I was thinking. But the influence of the humility that I experienced. Yeah. Because you see one thing. So especially as a 10-year-old, I'm still taking in a lot of like, what is this?
CeCe: Wow, you were 10.
Andrew: And what is it?
CeCe: Unbelievable.
Andrew: But I remember thinking, okay, cause you're talking about ministry from stage, right?
CeCe: Right.
Andrew: And I remember thinking, I feel something, I felt something in Black gospel music, we'd go to Tony Evans' church and to The Potter's House because I just wanted to experience the feeling of the energy, because in my church growing up, we were told to, basically, the MO was sit down and shut up.
CeCe: Wow! How do you have church sitting down and being quiet.
Andrew: When you think about what Jesus has done? You know? So that energy...
Mark: Like what that one preacher said, like came up and said, "Brother, Jesus," because he was all excited about the... He was like, "Jesus never acted like that." And he said, "Yeah, but everybody he touched did."
CeCe: I love that.
Andrew: I mean, did you feel, well, one, did you know that you and your family members would have this kind of influence in a fairly tight knit, not tight knit, but tied up, you know, kind of.
CeCe: No, no, no.
Andrew: And did you receive that once you did realize.
CeCe: Well, I mean, when you start out, I mean, we started out as kids, BeBe and I, when we were on the PTL Club, I was probably about 17-years-old. And then we did our first… So as a young person, I mean, you know, you're called to do something, but you're excited about doing your first record. And it's like, oh my goodness. But then you realize the responsibility that comes with that. And then it hits you. It's like, oh, this is not about you. This is not about your name in lights. It's not about your singing or your song, but it's about the hearts that are out there.
And I remember receiving probably our first mail from a fan. And it was a young lady if I remember right. It was a young lady that said that she was contemplating suicide, but she heard our songs on the radio and decided to give life another try. So you read that and you're a kid yourself. And it's like, oh my God. But you realize, okay, this is what this is about. This is what this is about.
So we look back and, no, we never thought we would have the influence. We never thought, there's no way I could have thought of all the things that God has done since then, and you do it for him and you just do it day by day. And you, then you look back and it's like, wow, it's been a long time.
Mark: And then you have people come by: "My grandmother loves you." Do you get that?
CeCe: Definitely mother, grandmother, 10-years-old.
Mark: They walk up and say, "My grandmother loves you".
So you've made this new record with your son, who I adore your son, and you pitched a fit about it.
CeCe: Yes, I did.
Andrew: So you didn't want, did he come to you with the idea?
Mark: Tell the story.
CeCe: Oh yeah. He came to me with the idea maybe four years, five or four years prior to going into the studio. My son Alvin came and he said, "Mom, I got it." 'Cause I have been out of the studio for a long time. My husband and I started a church, and I just kind of put everything on hold so we could focus on the congregation. 'Cause that was something that we hadn't planned on doing, but God had another plan.
And so it had been almost, well, then was probably about eight years since I had new work out, and my son came and said, "Mom, I got it, I got it." I was like, "You have what?" "I have the whole thing, the whole idea of when you come back out, what you're gonna do and how you should do it. And it's gonna be incredible." And I was like, okay.
And Alvin's always been talented. I mean, he's always, he's a great writer, he's a visionary, all of that. And so he began to tell me what was the vision that he had, and right away, I was just like, what? I mean 'cause you hear the music now, and it's something that's totally different than I've ever done before. But he was like, "Mom, it’s going to touch your followers who have followed you for years. So it would get the older generation, and it's gonna touch my generation, and it's just gonna… Everything I'm gonna show you, you're gonna think it's out of style, but it's back in style." And I was like, really? "Yeah. Yeah. And we're gonna wrap it up in different sounds." And I was like, no, I don't think so.
Mark: Why, why was that offensive to you? I wonder.
CeCe: Well, it's just the sound. All the different sounds that he was creating.
Mark: On one project were too much.
CeCe: On one project, but it was just, and you know, when you look at my career, I do different things you know, but his was just a little bit out there for me.
Mark: Okay.
CeCe: So yeah, it was a little too different for me at first. And then I began to hear it and I listened, and when I got it, I got it. But I fought him for a while. We had very intense conversations. My son and daughter… I should've said my husband and daughter are witnesses. They were very intense. Cause he wanted to do it all live.
Mark: Well, he said that there was something in your voice that was different than the studio voice.
Andrew: But you sang on this record, you sang.
CeCe: See, he didn't want me to be safe. He didn't want me to be safe at all, just go for it. And he wanted that live, raw feel. And I was like, what? No, we're not gonna remix it and do all this stuff. We just wanna go in there, like they used to do years ago.
Andrew: Yeah, yeah.
CeCe: We came in and take that one take and go. And I'm like, absolutely not. And then he was just like, "Just trust me." And I'm like, I raised you. So why would I trust you, you know, but he was right.
You know, once I got it, I was like, oh, this is gonna be a lot of fun.
Andrew: Yeah.
CeCe: You know, it's easy to do what you're used to doing, but it takes guts, it takes faith, but it takes guts to step out and do something.
Mark: So there are no praise and worship songs on it.
CeCe: I think we do. I think we have a few, a couple, maybe "Marvelous." Yeah, "Marvelous." I heard a young lady do that at the service the other day. And it was an awesome worship song. And we have "Dancing in the Spirit." It's more of a church-ish feel, but then you got the big band sound, you know, it's a big band sound.
Andrew: Those horns and those strings.
CeCe: "He's Never Failed Me Yet." And all the, every time, you know, I would go in the studio and Alvin is a perfectionist, you know, so I had to humble myself. You know, when he pushed that button and said, "Mom, that's not good enough." Like what?
Mark: Would you say, "Well, how is it not good enough?" What do you want me to do different?"
Cece: "Do it again. No, try this. Do this, do that." And I did. I just started doing what he told me to do. And I was like, wow, this is different. These roles are turned around, but he was right. He's got an ear.
Andrew: What did that produce in you to push through that with your son? You know, I think about my parents and at this stage of life, and we're great friends, but there's not a dynamic where I don't think they'd like to work with me, you know. And I mean, they appreciate my work. I appreciate theirs. So what does that produce in you to actually stay in the game with him as he continued to try to persuade you.
CeCe: Well, once I got it, I got it. And then I knew that everything... It's funny because everything Alvin had he had it six years ago or four years prior, whatever the years were. And so I realized that once I saw him, he started directing the orchestra and everything that was happening, and I was like, he really has this vision, like every part of it down in his brain.
Andrew: Wow!
CeCe: And so I knew I needed to just submit, shut up and be quiet.
Andrew: Do you think there's like a spiritual picture though? When you think about this cross-generational effort.
CeCe: Oh definitely. Cause God is all about generations. He's never about just us, but he's a generational God, you know, and so there would be nights I would go home after the studio and I would just weep. Hearing some of the lyrics of the songs, you know, as a parent, you just pray that your kids get it, you know?
And like the first song, "He's Never Failed Me Yet," you know, it's just so powerful. One of the lyrics in there is, "Like the three Hebrew boys that they all forced to take their faith to flames, I too have had the choice to make, to serve the world instead, but I stood on the word and did not bow, endured the steps the Lord allowed, came out stronger shouting, wow, he's never failed."
“[God is] a generational God”
Mark: Oh wow.
CeCe: Right.
Mark: Yes.
CeCe: Right.
Mark: Yes.
CeCe: So you hear that, and I just weep. I was like, Lord, you're just so faithful. You're faithful to every generation. And yeah. So it ended up being one of the greatest experiences of my life.
Andrew: See, I'm hearing that lyric, I'm in my thirties, okay, so I'm hearing that lyric thinking, I'm still testing that a bit I'm still curious, you know. I think I believe from the experience I've had so far, he's never failed me yet, yes. But I still got a lot that I'm curious about. I still got a lot that's conflicting me, honestly. I don't know, I'm still, you know, I'm in a process of living it rather than being able to totally testify.
Mark: Well, learn to trust it now and then you are home free.
CeCe: Yeah, I mean that's why we're here. You know, it's to coach the younger generation that, look, he's been faithful. He can't fail, you know. And there's things that you won't receive until you get older, but there are things that you can receive right now.
Mark: What do you wish you knew when you were 30 that you know now?
CeCe: Oh my God, we don't have time. That's a big question. What about you?
Mark: I think trusting him. I think I wish I had known then how trustworthy he really is. I can abandon myself.
CeCe: Yes.
Mark: And then he'll catch me.
CeCe: That's right. That's right.
Andrew: So you'd be more relaxed, do you think, or less anxious?
CeCe: Definitely.
Mark: I don't have anything to prove anymore. You know, I mean not really.
CeCe: Right, no.
Mark: I'm trying to end a career, not start one.
CeCe: Right.
Mark: And so I don't mind saying what I'm thinking.
CeCe: That's right.
Mark: But I do hope it's shrouded with grace.
CeCe: It is.
Mark: I wanna love people, you know. Like I've seen you love him. And one thing I love about you, since -- go ahead and take a bite – is your smile. You have a smile… And I was just talking about that with Reba Rambo the other day, about how she always smiles when she sings. And I think that is half the battle with an audience. Yeah. They walk out smiling. Like I'm here to love on you tonight, not to hurt you but to bless you. And you have done that.
Now with this church, what were you thinking? How did God lead you? And how did God tell y'all to do this?
CeCe: Okay.
Mark: And you're sure it was him.
CeCe: We're still in our right mind. So that's a good sign. And we're still doing good.
Mark: And it's mainly millennials going to your church.
CeCe: Yes, yes. But I'll tell you that… Ooh, okay. We've been a church now for almost six years.
Mark: Okay.
CeCe: So prior to starting, probably, I don't know, maybe 15 years before, my husband and I were going to our church that we've been going to for years, Born Again Church. We love 'em. Hi, everybody. And it was a lady there running a revival, you know, and she prayed over us and she prayed over my husband, my husband Alvin. And I heard her say, "Pastor." And when I heard the word pastor, I promise y'all I didn't even realize. It got out before I even thought. I just hollered out, "Oh no."
Mark: You're kidding me. That is hysterical.
CeCe: And I put my hand over my mouth. I was like, oh my God. If it's God, I could get struck, you know. Right here. And so that was the first time we heard it, but it didn't move my husband at all.
Mark: Did it move you?
CeCe: It moved me just because I just never heard that. And I just never thought that.
Mark: But you heard it from this lady.
CeCe: I heard it from this lady.
Mark: But you trust that it was from the Lord through her?
CeCe: No, not at that moment. But it just when you said, if it moved me, I was just like, oh.
Mark: Okay.
CeCe: You know, it's almost like you tuck it in the back of your mind, you know.
Andrew: And there was immediately a feeling of responsibility in a sense of if this is true, this is heavy.
CeCe: I was just like...
Mark: Like, please no, God.
CeCe: It was, it was, it was. Just because I just never thought that.
Mark: Well, you have seen what pastors go through too.
CeCe: I don't even know if it was that. It's just, I just never thought that this would be the case.
Mark: Never felt called.
CeCe: Never felt called to that. You know, we love people.
Mark: Right?
CeCe: You love God, you love people. And really you find out later that's really what pastoring is all about.
Mark: Right?
CeCe: So I think a lot of times we add things to things that have nothing to do with the call.
Andrew: Yeah, to me, it doesn't seem like such a...
CeCe: Far thing.
Andrew: No, far-fetched evolution or something.
CeCe: But it was so far-fetched to us in our mind. And it didn't bother him at all. He was like, "CeCe, I'll probably walk on the moon before I ever pastor. So don't even be uptight about it." You know, I was just like, okay. And sure enough, we heard nothing else. We felt nothing else. We went on living our lives like normal. And of course, we always say, Lord, whatever your will is, we want your will.
Andrew: Right.
CeCe: 'Cause you know what's best. So let's fast forward to maybe five years prior to starting the church. We started getting prophecies everywhere we went. I mean, strangers would come up to you, "You started your church yet?" And I was like.
Mark: You are kidding.
CeCe: No, I'm not kidding.
Mark: What kind of church are you involved with? I have never heard anybody walk up to me and prophecy.
CeCe: If I go sing somewhere…
Mark: Are you Baptist? I thought you were Baptist. No, you must be Pentacostal. See, Baptists, we never hear from God.
Andrew: I don't know if I've ever felt a nudge.
Mark: No really, seriously. I've never had anyone come and say, "Hey, God's... You're gonna pastor."
CeCe: Oh yeah.
Mark: How many did you have do that?
CeCe: Oh, it was ridiculous. It's like everywhere I went. Even the week that BeBe and I were getting stars on the Hollywood walk of fame, right,
Mark: Right.
CeCe: A man came up and prayed for us. He was actually like the manager at the Beverly Hills Hotel. And he, he knew a friend of mine. He was like, "Can we pray for you?" And then we were like, okay. So he prayed for us. And he started prophesying, and he saw all these young people and all the things that God was gonna do. And at that time, we were still like, what is he talking about? You know. But yeah, we were at another church singing, and a man came up to my husband, always going to Alvin.
Mark: Does God not know how to reach you directly? Why would he not reach you directly?
CeCe: Well, I guess he knows us. So as that kept going, we were like, what in the world is going on? And actually, it wasn't until we started praying about it. You know, a lot of times God can tell you stuff, and you don't feel it, you don't see it, but you owe him enough to at least start praying about it and asking him to reveal it in our hearts and make it plain and make it clear. And so we started doing that. We talked to our pastors, and they were like, "We're gonna pray with you." We just said, "This keeps coming up. What in the world is going on?" I mean, it was just, you couldn't ignore it.
Mark: Did it start to build an urge in you to do it?
CeCe: No.
Mark: Why is that funny?
CeCe: No, you just said "did it start" because I said, no, it didn't start an urge in him, it didn't start an urge in me. So, we're praying about it. But still just tucked in our mind, just, you know, "Lord, whatever it is, just show it to us." But we keep living our lives.
So my son Alvin goes to Australia. He tells us he wants to try living abroad. So he went to Australia. Melbourne, Australia. And I was like, why are you going so far? I mean, what have we done to you for you to live that far? So he went, and he called. He said, "Mom, a friend of mine is going to this ministry school. It's a short... Well, it's a long-term commitment." And he says, "Should I go?" And I was like, "Well, Alvin." He went to the small church in Melbourne. Melbourne, Australia. And I said, "Well, Alvin you're there. You just got there. You don't have a car or anything yet. You're still, you know, getting things in order. Just go. Your friend goes to this church. Just go. If you don't like it, you can get out of it."
Well, make a long story short, God just transformed his life. He called me, and I knew when he called me that he was totally different. So I went from praying, "Lord, bring my son home," to, "Lord, he can stay there as long as he wanted to say." Because I could tell in his conversation that God had just got a hold to his heart. He's always been a great kid, but it was definitely somebody totally different on that side of the phone.
Mark: Cool.
CeCe: And when he came back from Australia, my father had passed, and he came back actually for that funeral, he started talking to his friends, and he wanted his friends to be saved and get filled with the Holy Spirit. And so he just started a revival, and he asked us if we would hold a class for some of his friends at our house.
Mark: How neat.
CeCe: And so we were like, "Sure, Alvin. What do you wanna do?" He said, "I want them to experience what I experienced in Australia." And I was like, "Well, how are they gonna do that?" He said, "I'm gonna call Pastor Bram and Dianne Manusama." That was, that was their names.
Andrew: I thought that was y'all's new names.
CeCe: No. But, "And see if they'll come and run the class." It's called...
Mark: From Australia.
CeCe: From Australia. See if they'll come to the house and run the class, a week long class. It was called Discipleship Ministry School. DMS is what they called it. And so he called them, and they said, "Sure, we'll come." I mean, they didn't ask for anything. They were like, "Yes, we'll come. We believe God is doing something in you, and we'll come." And they came. Alvin got on the phone, text some of his friends to come.
Mark: And they came?
CeCe: And they came. It was probably, I don't know, maybe about 40 people that ended up at the house. Young people, totally diverse crowd. A lot of them were his friends from Belmont University he went to school with. And all I can say is that their lives were changed.
Mark: Really.
CeCe: Drastically.
Mark: Like you sat in on this meeting too?
CeCe: Oh, of course.
Mark: What was different about that?
CeCe: When they came, the way these incredible people taught the Word. As you know, growing up in the church all my life, I could just hear the Holy Spirit telling me to sit back and just watch, forget about everything you think you know, and sit back and watch.
Mark: Really?
CeCe: And that's what I did in my living room.
Mark: What did you learn?
CeCe: Well, I learned that the way they taught, they just kind of met this generation where they were, you know. It was very simple, very relational, you know. It wasn't about God being so far away. That generation, your generation, they really don't care about all the different, what do you say, all the different protocols,
Andrew: Sure, or even doctrine.
CeCe: All of that. They just want a relationship with Jesus.
Andrew: Which is really, when you think about it, that's really getting back…
CeCe: To what it should be.
Mark: I want that too.
Food for the Hungry Sponsorship Message
Mark: You can help save thousands of lives by giving a generous gift to Food for the Hungry today.
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Mark: Give generously today at fh.org/dinner. We're so excited that you'll be giving that we wanna give something to you. We have several add-ons, we call them, where we will be maybe making a special phone call to a friend of yours, a video.
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The Abide Bible Sponsorship Message
Mark: The Bible is the foundation of our theology. We would not know of Jesus if it weren't for the Bible. We wouldn't know about grace. We wouldn't know about how God cares for us. And there is a new Bible out called the Abide Bible. You know how Jesus said, if you abide in me as I abide in my father, and we abide in each other, and it's just a continual feed off each other. And what I like about this Bible is it's asking us to go deeper.
Andrew: Yeah, it's taking an approach to the Bible from being just simply informational to really being invitational. So there's a lot of prompts in this Bible to journal alongside Scriptures. It gives you opportunity to pray certain Scriptures at different seasons of your life, to meditate on the Scripture. There's beautiful artwork in here that's really cool cause it's not just like some kind of Sunday school artwork. They're using like da Vinci and beautiful pieces of classic art to really just get us to imagine, to be able to use all of our senses as we enter into Scripture, so that we really step into the story of Scripture, not just see it as words on a page but as part of a living, breathing active part of our lives. And you know what? I asked my brother one time, who's a pastor, I said, "Why is the Bible so important?" And he said exactly what you said a second ago, because it is the greatest written revelation of who God is. And so it gives us the opportunity to know God but also to be a part of God's story. That's the Abide Bible.
Mark: So go to abidebible.com to get your copy today.
CeCe Winans and Alvin Love III performing “Looking Up”
For the battle is the Lord's
I'm not ashamed to celebrate
Stand and testify
'Cause every time I call that name
I know the victory is mine
I'm looking up, I'm looking up
I'm looking up to where my help comes from
All of my problems are below you
All that I need is in the palm of your hands
Looking up, looking up
I'm looking up, I'm looking up
To where my help comes from
All of my problems are below you
All that I need is in the palm of your hands
Tell me where, tell me where
Is my help, is my help
Coming from, coming from
It's coming from the Lord
It's coming from the Lord
Tell me where, tell me where
Is my help, is my help
Coming from, coming from
It's coming from the Lord
It's coming from the Lord
It's coming from the Lord
It's coming from the Lord
Healing is coming from the Lord
It's is coming from the Lord
Salvation is coming from the Lord
It's coming from the Lord
Oh, it's coming from the Lord
It's coming from the Lord
Tell me where, tell me where
Is my help, is my help
Coming from, coming from
It's coming from the Lord
It's coming from the Lord
It's coming from the Lord
It's coming from the Lord
Andrew: We're sitting here in the future home, the soon to be future home, of Nashville Life Church. There's construction going on all around. We're in the middle of the energy of the church that you now, you were just installed as lead pastor.
Alvin: Yes, sir.
Andrew: Just a few weeks ago. In fact, your own journey was really the impetus for the genesis of this.
Alvin: I like that. Yeah, I'll take note.
Andrew: Well, take me back to the story. Tell me your story. Tell me the Alvin Love story that brought you up to a place where you and your friends are meeting, you know, as a house church that began this church we're in.
Alvin: 2008 I moved. No, 2009. I was out of college, out of Belmont, which we both graduated from. A year, I was out for a year, and I moved to Australia just to try something different. I was pretty unmotivated. I grew up in Nashville, and I kinda wanted to shake things up, and I wasn't in the best place. In fact, I was in a bad place of just my own personal life and didn't have a lot of drive, a lot of vision. So I figured if I go somewhere else, it might kind of refresh my sense of existence and life. But it wasn't really exclusively like for Christian or faith purposes. It was really just because I wasn't that engaged with my faith. That's probably putting it nicely.
Andrew: Is that because of your growing up experience or...
Alvin: So much of my church involvement and faith involvement was because my parents drove me and I had no way of getting around. So when I got that independence, it was really a revelation that, man, I'm not really working with a lot for like Alvin. And I kind of ran and got it to all kinds of sin and just lived life that you live when you're not following Jesus And that's where I was when I went to Australia and ended up finding a church. I wasn't planning on going to a church, but someone that I met invited me and I didn't know anybody in the whole country. So I figured I would. Or continent. So I figured I would, yeah, go meet some people.
Andrew: And it was that kind of… Was it a pretty surface reception as far as, yeah, I'll go to church with you 'cause it seemed like you're trying to get away from everything you kind of knew before.
Alvin: Right. When I was invited, I didn't really wanna go 'cause in my mind I had been there and done that. I was, at 23, arrogant enough to think that I've seen everything that church can offer. And I remember having the thought, well, at least you can go meet some people. So I went solely just for a social motive, and jokes on me, ended up being this really impactful service, the message, the worship, all of it like pricked my heart in a big way. And the events of that service convinced me to stay for nine months. I was only planning on staying there for three months max. And turns out, that was the first Sunday for a class that they offered, a discipleship class, that was a nine-month commitment. And something about that day, I was so convicted and so compelled by whatever happened that I called my family and said I was gonna stay for nine months and had my life changed and came home to Nashville and just couldn't shut up about the experience.
My roommate kinda caught on, and then we start to tag team into our friends and people started coming over to the house and asking if they could get prayer. And I'm like, what? Because I mean, I wasn't even really going to church prior to this, let alone praying for people at my house. I would Skype my pastors in Australia and be like, "Are we allowed to do this?" Like, we're just these guys.
Andrew: Sure, yeah.
Alvin: And they were like, "Yes, yes." Because they're really big on empowering the believer. And they're... So much of what they do is saying it shouldn't just be the pastor or the staff. Like we all should be making disciples. We all should be leading people to Jesus.
So word got around our circle of friends that Alvin and Trey, who was my roommate, kind of turned into these radicals. And we were seeing people healed. We were seeing people like coming to Jesus, like things that we just never thought could come through us was happening, and it blew us away. And then it got too big for our house, so I asked my parents if we could meet over at their house. And before we knew it, we had this community, and we were calling it anything but a church. We were calling it like hang, fellowship, prayer, worship night. We would not let that word come up.
Andrew: Still a little bit of like...
Alvin: Oh, absolutely.
Andrew: Residue, right.
Alvin: Absolutely. My parents, their house was on the market. They were moving to California. They were moving to Orange County. So like starting a church in Nashville, my dad was, you know, 65 at the time. Like that was nowhere on their radar. But they had been getting prophecies since like '95 that they were gonna pastor a church. And they would like graciously nod their head, But inside they're like, that's not happening because my dad's a real laid back, kinda just behind-the-scenes guy. Mom sings. They just didn't think that made sense. But dad's prayer was, "God, if you want this to happen, you've gotta make it so obvious that a blind man could see it." And he said when he saw 80 people in his living room, he said, he felt God say, "How much more obvious do you want me to make it?" And that day, that night, they announced that they were gonna start a church. It was March 2012.
Andrew: I mean, think about that. Like your dad saying, "I'm gonna need kind of this writing on the wall." But his son, who I'm sure your parents being in relationship with you, and I remember your mom talking a little bit about this, kind of being an observation of your life, just interested in where this is gonna end up spiritually. Then that you have your own spiritual experience, unexpected spiritual awakening, that then intersects with your parents' calling that they've somewhat been, they've been resistant in their own way. You've been resistant to faith, they've been resistant of a calling, that you would be the motivation for that writing on the wall.
Alvin: So strange.
Andrew: Did anyone ever think?
Alvin: No, like when I think back in retrospect, I think of the same thing. Like these two plots kind of like intersected because I thought my story was just independent. Little did I know that that story was meant to be a kind of ignition to this other story that's been going on even before with my parents. And then there was just this kind of colliding of my faith and the fire that came out of nowhere that I didn't know why it was there, but now I do understand. Yeah, it's very wild.
Andrew: Do you feel like Australia, in hindsight when you look at it, do you feel like you were really actually more driven, you know, by spiritual motivations than you knew?
Alvin: That's a great question. I've always said my trip to Australia really kind of flipped my whole theology upside down because, in the moment, there was nothing that was like, God is leading me to Australia. If anything, it was this is me breaking away doing my own thing. And the concept and hindsight of the time that I thought I was actually straying from the path the most is when I was walking right dead smack in the middle of God's will for my life. And of course, I've gone down rabbit trails of like, did God lead me to Australia? Or it was that just the sovereignty of God? If I had picked France, would that have happened to me in France? If I'd picked Wyoming, would it have happened in Wyoming? Like, you know, you could go and start thinking about that stuff. And then you realize it's just not getting you anywhere, but I've definitely thought through like, man, how did that happen? 'Cause if anything, I thought I was kind of rebelling and maybe doing the prodigal situation, and right within a week, I'm in the presence of God being called to follow him and represent him. So, I don't know. I can't really make sense of it.
Andrew: I was listening to one of your sermons yesterday. And so the theme for Nashville Life Church in this season is... I've got it right… I wanna get this right. It is, I am--
Alvin: A life giver.
Andrew: I am a life giver. And one of the quotes that I wrote down that you said, which I really liked, and the idea is that we're not just saved, that's not the end game. Salvation is not the end game, but we are here to be really agents of change through the gospel of Jesus in us, right? Okay, but I love what you said here. You said, "The cross doesn't just save us but enables us to help save others."
Alvin: That's right.
Andrew: Explain that.
Alvin: Second Corinthians, chapter five. A lot of times we quote this one part, but after it, I realized we were really kind of brushing over the coolest part in my opinion, but it says, you know, "Anyone who's in Christ is a new creation. Old has past. Behold, all has become new," which is awesome. That's the quoted one.
And then it says, "And then he's entrusted to us the ministry of reconciliation." And it talks about how we're ambassadors for him and how God makes his appeal through us. I'm like, there's this whole backend to the faith that I don't hear enough of. Like I definitely wasn't living it. I came from the mindset of you get saved and then you just pretty much wait to go to heaven. And if that was the case, you know, that really is a buzzkill for the rest of my life, especially if you get saved at 5-years-old. Like...
Andrew: Sure.
Alvin: What's the rest of your life? And to me, I had to learn that salvation isn't the end, it's the beginning. It's the new birth. Like you're just born when you come to Jesus. And then if you look at that analogy, you know, when you're born, that's the beginning of life. So now what? And my pastors in Australia, Dianne and Bram Manusama, pastors of Melbourne Life, They used to always say we spend so much emphasis on what we've been saved from opposed to what we've been saved for. I hear so many people say, especially people who've been raised in church, they get that sense of I just feel like there's more, and they let, I don't know, that's, that can be very frustrating if you don't know what that is to the point to where some people leave the church because if this is all there is, then no, thanks, you know.
Andrew: Well, it's kind of interesting. I wonder if those people's response actually – that kind of, no thanks, there's gotta be more – is actually a result of us, and that could be whoever, in the church historically, and I think especially in the Bible Belt type church, making the gospel me-centric, which says salvation is the end game, instead of Jesus-centric, which says he is saving us for the effort of redemption of the entire world, in my perspective. So--
Alvin: That was really good. I love that.
Andrew: Thank you. You can watch the tape later and create some sermons from it if you like. I think I'm sensing a calling. You do not want me to be a pastor. I don't have...
Alvin: Do you preach?
Andrew: No. I mean, I preach in a way, but not… I don't have a theological backbone, so it's like I want everyone to go to heaven. So, you know, it's like, I can't be a preacher.
Alvin: Oh, whatever.
Andrew: Yeah. I know, but you probably believe not everybody. Well, I'm not there yet.
Alvin: Oh my God. Well then maybe you shouldn't. That's a pretty fundamental thing.
Andrew: Yeah, it is. I'm not denying the fundamental of it, okay. I'm just not denying myself.
Alvin: Okay. Well said. So you're further than you think.
Andrew: Yeah, just need to go to Australia. Okay. Go back to the ministry of rec...that we have been entrusted with the ministry of reconciliation. How so?
Alvin: I believe through the Holy Spirit. I think, you know how toys, they say "each sold separately," and there's this whole idea of you get this and you get this. I believe that with salvation comes the ministry of reconciliation with... Almost like if I give you 20 bucks, now you have money to give. Like with that gift came the ability to now give to others. And I think that's how it works with God. Like pay it forward because I've been given it.
Like Scripture says, "To much is given much is required," right? So that's the part, that's the responsibility that comes with blessings. A lot of times we'll be talking about the benefit of blessings. We don't talk about the responsibility of blessings. You know, if I've been given a gift, now I'm accountable to use that gift for the benefit of others. And I think salvation is the same as 20 bucks or anything else. It's a gift that, now with that reconciliation that we have with God, we now have a connection that other people can benefit from. And God is holding us responsible to share this reconciliation, this connection, that we all have because that's what Jesus did.
Jesus had this tight relationship with the Father, but he didn't just keep it to himself. He said, "Hey, I'm gonna let you guys in on this relationship too. Everything that I have I'm gonna share it with you." And he wants us to continue in that same spirit. Now that we've been brought into this incredible father-son, father-daughter relationship with God, don't keep it for yourself. Bring other people, bring other people to the table as well. So that's kind of how.
Andrew: Yeah. It sounds elementary. But in the culture we live in today, to believe and then to get motivated behind the fact that the truth that we as followers of Jesus have not only been entrusted with but that we have been given the skillsets to be in the ministry of reconciliation, really that's a contrast today more than maybe ever before, at least in our knowledge.
Alvin: I preach that message every week in this culture. So I know the resistance. I know the fixed mindsets, the barriers. Honestly, particularly within people who've been in church the longest. The new converts get it like that. Like at our church, if you got saved at our church, within weeks you're making disciples. It's the ones who've been on the deacon board for this long and they were here and they ran Vacation Bible School and they have all the experience. Sometimes that can be, I don't know, it can give this, I don't know, it's you get stuck or you get set in a certain way.
And that's why I feel like our calling, at least for Nashville Life… We, you know, I believe we have a dual calling. It's for the lost, but it's also to like the stagnant believer and that's kinda like thought that this is the end. And I'm like, no, there's so much more. And I love doing both. I feel like that's pretty much... Nashville Life touches the person who's been saved since birth and just realizing, oh my God, my eyes are open to a whole new dimension of this, of this relationship with God. And then the person who's like, "Who's Jesus?" You know, I think that's kind of our church. We've kinda got this spectrum and then this, yeah.
Andrew: That's... To be able to have that interacting with one another, that requires an element of sacrifice, of surrender on everyone's part. For me to be patient with the person who says, "My experience is done," and for that person to say, "Okay, maybe my experience is not finished." You know, that's to me that's the dynamic of a healthy church, even when there's tension.
Alvin: That's it.
Andrew: And I don't think that's toxic.
Alvin: Aw man. Not at all. Like you're right. I love... I think I've seen in our church the new convert really serves as inspiration and accountability for like the old heads or people like who've been walking with God for a long time and then vice versa. There's mutual things that people can learn from each other. And that tension is so beneficial.
And on the other side of it is, culturally too, like our church is pretty much half and half, Black and white. And that's been a cool benefit too because there's a tension of these different cultures. But when we humble ourselves and when we use patience and the things that Scripture teaches us to dwell in community, it really ends up producing this beautiful result.
Andrew: Yeah.
Alvin: Yeah.
Andrew: Well, it has been cool to be here in the middle of even the energy of this construction as y'all are building lives within a city. You know, that's kind of symbolic of what's happening.
Alvin: Yeah, I think so too. I actually just wrote that in a letter. I was like, I think what's happening in the building is symbolic or a representation or a reflection of what's happening with our church.
Andrew: Yeah.
Alvin: Yeah.
Andrew: I love it.
Alvin: Thank you.
Andrew: Well, you're welcome. I'm so glad you got so much good content from me.
Alvin: Oh, yes. You're blessing me.
Andrew: Now you know what you need to do with that blessing?
Alvin: Give it back to someone else.
Andrew: Someone else. Yes, someone else.
Alvin: I don't know if you wanted me to give you like an offering or something.
Andrew: Yeah, you can. Do you want me to give you my Venmo?
Alvin: Yeah, I'll Venmo you. But I'll pay it forward too.
Andrew: Okay. Okay, deal. Alright. Thanks, Alvin.
Alvin: Absolutely.
The Faithful Project
Mark: Women have been very important in my journey to know Jesus. First of all my mother, who would tuck me into bed at night, tell me God's gonna use me. My grandmothers were so important to me. And then some of the women in our church, like Delores Sims. You've never heard of her, but she would always woo me to Jesus. And did you know that women were the first ones that learned that Jesus had risen from the dead? And then they went back, told the men, the men didn't believe it until they saw him for themselves. But women have been very important in the message of the Gospel and this new project called Faithful, which is a CD and book.
Andrew: So many of our good friends and people that you have read their literature or you've heard their music, people like Amy Grant and Kelly Minter and Jenny Owens, Sandra McCracken, Sally Lloyd Jones, Trillia Newbell, there's so many wonderful authors and artists, and here's the cool part. They all got together to write about the women of the Bible and then write songs about how women are a part of continuing to share the story of the gospel all throughout history into today, but the artists and the authors combined efforts. So artists, musicians, were writing some of the chapters and authors were helping write some of the music, which I think it's just this shared experience to say that the telling and sharing of the Gospel, the story of God, is written in each of our lives to share and tell to others just like you.
When I think about who first shared the real nuts and bolts of the Gospel, it was women. And so this Faithful Project celebrates that, highlights that, and offers an opportunity, not just for women but also for men, to be invited into that conversation as well. To learn more about the book and the music project called Faithful, go to faithfulproject.com.
Visit Dinner-Conversations.com for DVDs, CDs, and more!
Mark: Did you know that at dinner-conversations.com, we have a store. We have been around long enough to produce products.
Andrew: That you want.
Mark: You want this. A Dinner Conversations mug to hold your eight ounces of coffee in the morning, or less. And then one if you wanna look at us. See how intellectual I look with my glasses.
Andrew: You look like you're judging me.
Mark: Well, I am. It gives me that intellectual look.
Andrew: We also have DVDs full of all of our episodes and a bunch of bonus content you can't find anywhere else. We've got this Season One DVD with all kinds of guests, like Sandi Patty and Chonda Pierce and Point of Grace. And we've got this Season Two DVD set. I mean, these are tons of disks, Kathie Lee Gifford, Montell Jordan, Scott Hamilton, Amy Grant. And you know what else we have? We have the Songs from the Set CD where we sing a little bit together, but also, you'll hear a lot of songs from people like Russ Taff and The Isaacs, some of our very favorites. You can find all of that at dinner-conversations.com.
Andrew: So in this generation, yes, desiring this pure or direct relationship with God through Jesus, right? At the same time, like I think about songs on your record, songs like "Hey Devil," you know, which is so much fun. If I heard those words in any other context, my little millennial spirit might be offended. You know what I'm saying though? Because like devil and hell is a bit taboo for us, I think, because we're wanting to hug everybody into the Kingdom a little bit. How do you feel? I mean, is that part of your pastoral role in some ways or just a shepherding role from your generation...
Mark: You still believe in hell?
CeCe: Oh yes.
Mark: Alright.
CeCe: The Bible says there is a hell.
Mark: Yeah.
CeCe: So there's one there.
Andrew: So what do we do at those counter-cultural conversations? Like, I don't know what to do with it sometimes, you know, like I'm not gonna preach hell, fire, and brimstone, yet I do want to believe the truth and I want to embody the truth.
Mark: Hell will get your attention. I think the fear of God will get your attention, but the love of God will constrain you.
“The fear of God will get your attention, but the love of God will constrain you.”
CeCe: Very good.
Mark: Right.
CeCe: Yeah.
Mark: And so I never even think about hell. Do you?
CeCe: No.
Mark: Hell is irrelevant to me.
CeCe: Exactly.
Mark: 'Cause I'm not going.
CeCe: We're not going. It's not made for us.
Mark: Yeah.
CeCe: You focus on the love of God. And I think that definitely I've had to learn how to minister to the millennials without compromising the truth because there's only the truth that's gonna set anybody free. You know, but focusing on the love of God, maybe more than what they did growing up with us, even though it worked for us.
“There’s only the truth that’s gonna set anybody free.”
Mark: Right.
CeCe: Right, we're still here.
Mark: Right.
Andrew: Right. Interesting, yeah.
CeCe: But God does know how to reach everybody and he wants to reach everybody, and we have to be willing to do things different. You know, I never thought I would go to church casual. That would be like, what? You're not dressing up going to church? But you come to Nashville Life and they're in their jeans and their T-shirt, and it's like Holy Spirit's like, this is really okay.
Mark: Ain't that funny, he still has to tell us?
CeCe: Exactly. So it's you have to be willing to do… And it's just being lit of the Holy Spirit. You know, he is love.
Mark: Is how they look more important than reaching them?
CeCe: Exactly.
Mark: You know, forget it. We're going for the heart.
CeCe: We're going for the heart. And that's what we see. We have incredible young people who are in love with Jesus, and they're sharing the gospel. They're making disciples.
Mark: Are you reaching out to the older folks in your area?
CeCe: Of course. We want everybody there. We're not forgetting, but going back to Alvin, it's just like when we started the church, I mean, we started out of that. Forty people came.
Mark: Bible study.
CeCe: And then we did it again, and still, my husband and I, we're still not saying we're pastors. We are like, "God bless you, young people. Go home. If you don't have a church, find a church and just stay on fire for God," because they were... They really did...
Mark: How many ended up in… How many you got in your church now?
CeCe: Probably about 300. Still very small. It is incredible because each life, the way we're doing discipleship, we're focusing on each person. So that they would be strong in the faith.
Mark: You know, 300 is huge to focus on every one of them.
CeCe: Yes.
Andrew: Yeah, that's a large responsibility.
CeCe: And the setup that we have...
Mark: How are you balancing that and your career?
CeCe: That's probably my biggest challenge these days.
Mark: Do you make hospital visits?
CeCe: Yes.
Andrew: Is that what you consider this?
CeCe: No, I do, but we have life groups, which are great.
Mark: Yeah.
Andrew: Yeah.
CeCe: And so it takes, you know, they're there at the hospital before we get there, you know, so everybody's taken care of.
Andrew: The church is taking care of itself.
CeCe: Yeah. It's awesome. But then, of course, we'll go too, so it's been amazing. But that's my biggest challenge because before this latest record, I had just been focusing on a church. So I had never did all the CeCe Winans, and then the pastor CeCe is like, "Oh my God, how am I gonna do this?" So I just have to balance it. Well, I don't go as much as I would have normally gone, if I wasn't pastoring. I'm trying to be home on Sundays. And which I've heard of a lot of artists who have done that over the years and have done it well. I think Casting Crowns.
Mark: Right, I was just thinking how Mark—
Andrew: Hall.
CeCe: Yeah. And so it's a few people who do it, and I was like, "Okay, Lord, if you called me to do it and you haven't told me to stop doing what I do globally, then you work it out."
Mark: Can you tell that what you have going on in your church has affected how you minister?
Andrew: Yeah, what goes on on stage?
CeCe: Yeah, I think so.
Mark: You have more sympathy for pastors and their wives. You know, you might be able to relate to them.
CeCe: I think as an artist, it's almost like an evangelist compared to a pastor. You go in as an artist and you deliver this message and they're blessed by it and you're blessed by it and you leave and you go somewhere else. But understanding, and I've always understood this because I've always been so connected to a local church, and a lot of people don't understand the importance of a local church, to make sure you're being poured into week by week, to make sure you're covered, to make sure you're submitted and that you have relationships with people, you're being discipled is so important. So now that we've been pastoring, I understand it even more so how important it is.
And so, yeah, I think it's changed me a lot as far as seeing the importance of encouraging those I'm singing to to be in church, you know, to live a life that is balanced. You know, to walk with Jesus every day, you know, not just during a conference or during an exciting concert, but what are you doing on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday because those are the things that are gonna keep you standing years and years later.
Andrew: And you know, when you think about even segueing songs, I know there's songs you choose based on there's people in the audience who've listened to you for years, and they're gonna want to hear certain things of course, and those have profound messages too, but then tying them together with,
I need thee every hour, you know and just start, that kinda thing. And literally, like the mood and the temperature of the place changes.
Mark: Don't you find that with hymns when you drag a hymn out?
CeCe: Nothing more powerful.
Mark: Are you seeing that the millennials are leaving the hymns behind? Or are they bringing them with them?
CeCe: Some of them are, but I'm tryna make sure they bring them with them. Because even in our church, our young people, when they're up there doing worship, he'll bring it. He'll bring a hymn in.
Mark: Good.
CeCe: Almost every Sunday, not every Sunday, but in his lineup of songs, he'll have it there.
Andrew: This may sound like a weird question, but what's a hymn that you feel like is still standing, that you're still seeing it used in as effective in Nashville Life Church? Is there one that comes to mind?
Mark: Is there one that just pops out at you when you're up there? I mean, like I have a song. There's a song that I'm just around the house, right? Just me alone. One always comes out of it.
CeCe: Really what?
Mark: Thank you Lord for saving my soul
CeCe: Yeah.
Mark: I don't know why.
CeCe: That's the best. Yeah, I mean, I sing a lot of the, the older songs. I don't know if they're really in the hymn books, but you know, like for instance, "He's Never Failed Me Yet." Even though that's a new song that my son wrote, but I remember the old mothers singing.
He's never failed me yet
He's never failed me yet
Jesus Christ has never failed me yet
Everywhere I go
I want the world to know
Jesus Christ has never failed me yet
Mark: I never heard that one.
CeCe: See.
Mark: That's not from our tradition.
Andrew: I didn't hear it the first time.
CeCe: So it's those songs like that that stir up in me all the time.
Mark: When I had my MRI, it was "Blessed assurance, Jesus is mine. Oh, what a foretaste of glory divine." It wasn't one of the new. Because I'm older, right? And I try to tell people my age, if you don't get those new songs, look at the young people. They're getting it. And I can get blessed watching them. I don't have to sit there and judge it because it doesn't rhyme correctly.
CeCe: Right.
Andrew: Well, music will always have a place in our relationship with God as disciples I think. There's a way that it translates from our mind to our heart. A melody, that lyric, it then connects it for me.
“Music will always have a place in our relationship with God as disciples.”
CeCe: Yeah.
Andrew: I mean, I often think I wonder if I would have been introduced to God without music. I wonder, even though I grew up in church, even though I grew up with parents who loved God, it was music and is music in my most lonely moments.
CeCe: Well, you know, music was created to bring glory and honor to God and to bring us to God. It really is the way we worship him. That's pretty spectacular.
Mark: It's what separates us, one of the things, from the animals. We can sing, right?
CeCe: Yeah.
Andrew: Birds.
CeCe: Well, the birds do sing.
Mark: Edit that.
Andrew: I have one more question for you. You can't leave without one more. Submission. I just wanna ask this because I've heard you say submit even today a couple of times. I've heard you say it before. That is not a popular term.
CeCe: Oh no, not in your generation at all.
Mark: Or with women in general. The submit to your husband thing, I used to browbeat Gloria Gaither with that.
Andrew: Do you rally behind that? I can't wait to submit.
Well, but so reframing. I mean, language is important.
Mark: Submit yourselves one to another too.
CeCe: I think that's why I'm blessed today because I understood. They taught us about submission, what it really meant, because it's God's idea. You know, we can't change what God already put in place. You know, he has an order.
Mark: Submission to who?
CeCe: I submitted to my pastors, you know, even when I disagreed. It's like, you know what, they're older than me for a reason, so let me submit. I submitted to my parents.
Mark: Okay.
CeCe: I submitted to my husband, you know. Thank God, I mean, he understands that we're a team together, but he's the head. That's what the Bible says, you know. And then, like you said, submitting to one another, I submit to my brothers and sisters. It's like, and that's where harmony comes in.
Mark: If your husband is beating you, okay, now I'm serious because somebody that might be watching.
CeCe: Okay, this is good.
Mark: You don't submit to that.
CeCe: No, no.
Andrew: Because that's not true submission.
CeCe: That's not true submission. No, no, no. Somebody is beating you, then you need to get out of there.
Mark: You're supposed to submit. I could see someone using that Scripture abusively.
Andrew: Sure. We've used that in race tensions.
CeCe: Yes, yes, no, no. It's a loving...
Mark: If your husband would die for you like Christ died for the church, it's a lot easier to submit. When someone loves you unconditionally, what's to submit?
CeCe: Exactly.
Andrew: You hear that, Alvin?
Mark: He's asleep.
I've loved watching you through the years. I remember when I was at Liberty, I'd turn on my TV that I had hidden in the closet. I would watch PTL and your brother, and you blessed me for years. And I mean that.
CeCe: Thank you, Mark. You've blessed me too. You've kept us laughing.
Andrew: Yeah. I will say, too, as personal testimony, you literally impacted the way I saw racial unity within the church and without it, just because we didn't have that, I didn't have that experience at my fingertips.
Mark: You have crossed over.
Andrew: Yeah, and music allowed me to be introduced to that.
CeCe: Well, great. Great. Yeah.
I mean, I grew up in really an all Black church, you know. It really wasn't until we went to PTL.
Mark: That's what exposed you.
CeCe: That exposed me to more audiences. And 'cause I remember, it's funny. I remember the first time, BeBe and I, we sang in front of some church, I guess it was in Charlotte, and it was an all white church, and they just sat there and looked at us. And we were just singing our hearts, and we finished and we looked at each other, said, "Well, praise God. I'm glad we enjoyed it."
Mark: It's gotta be shocking.
CeCe: But afterwards, they were just weeping, they were just weeping. They were blessed by it, but it was just like, we're used to everybody howling at us. "Sing that song." Whoa. Okay. So that was God preparing us for where he was taking us, you know, and so it's been a blessing too, because one of the things I think we really miss out on is each other. We really miss out, being separated. And so it's been a blessing to be able to go all over the world and sing in front of everybody and see how God moves and loves everybody just the same. But also, I think we miss out on a lot because we're not more diverse. And so Nashville Life is very diverse. Thank you, Lord. And it was just him that did it, and it's remained that way.
Andrew: Yeah.
Mark: So what's the sin that easily besets you? I'm digging deep, y'all.
Andrew: I'm usually the one who crosses a thousand lines, and Marks like, oh my God.
Mark: I mean, seriously, like I asked Janet Paschal one time.
CeCe: I've been interviewed for years, and I've never been asked a question like this. That's pretty good.
Mark: Okay, but like.
Andrew: Only on Dinner Conversations.
Mark: Let me explain myself. Janet Paschal, do you know her?
CeCe: I do know her.
Mark: Great singer. I've always said if I ever hear someone has had an argument with Janet Paschal, they're wrong. I don't even need a… I asked her one time… but she's probably one of the most perfect people I've ever known, seriously. And I said, "What could it be? Why did you even need Jesus?" No, what could he forgive. And I never could get her to tell me.
CeCe: Oh God, that is so funny.
Andrew: I do think some people are--
Mark: I mean, I do think you're pretty perfect from my… Hey, come here.
CeCe: Alvin knows.
Mark: Surely you know what sin is… Have you ever cussed a little?
CeCe: No.
Mark: Come on. When you slam that hammer down on that finger?
CeCe: No, nothing. No curse words come out.
Andrew: Don't let her see our B-roll.
CeCe: Absolutely not.
Mark: Well, the apostle Paul did. He said, "I count it all dung that I may..." Didn't he? Did he not? Somebody tell me the Bible.
Andrew: He's quoted it a lot of times.
Mark: And I thought, well, I like Paul. I'd count it all dung to know him. I mean, he named all of his… "I was this, I was that, I was this, I was the best, I was everything." And he wasn't bragging. He was telling the truth. "But I'd throw it all away. It's nothing but a pile of cow poop compared to knowing Jesus." I think that's wonderful.
CeCe: That is wonderful. No cursing though.
Andrew: I do think we all... Different, different people are leveled with different things in their spiritual journeys. In the sense of, I kinda remember hearing this lyric in a song that said something like, you know, some just get more than their fair share. It seems, from this perspective...
Mark: You mean talent-wise?
Andrew: No, I mean like when the heaviness of life, you know, think conflicts, whether it's inner conflict or circumstances outside of that, it does seem... I don't think anyone's less protected from a spiritual perspective or whatever, has different access to God and his righteousness, but it seems that some even without their decision, without poor decision or searching it out, have more to deal with.
Mark: Trouble.
Andrew: I guess so. Yeah.
CeCe: I mean, life is a mystery, you know. When I look at my life, when we look at all of our lives, we can see how many ways we've been so blessed, you know, and then you do see people who are suffering, and it's not because we've done anything so right. But at the same time...
Mark: Or they have done anything so wrong.
CeCe: So wrong. But I think in those times we have to know that God is sovereign. We won't always understand everything, but when you get to know him, you can trust him. You know, and we're just responsible to do what God has called us to do. And I think when we respond to that, then not only do we walk in the fullness of him, but then we're able to bless as many people as possible, you know. But if you're gonna look at all the situations around the world and let that make a deciding factor in any way if you're gonna trust God or not, then forget about it.
Mark: Right.
CeCe: You gotta know who he is, and when you know who he is, then you know that he's just.
Mark: Who said trust him when you can't trace him?
CeCe: Oh, that's good. I don't know. But it's really good.
Mark: You know, trust him. This was good.
CeCe: Like Oprah said, that's the one thing I know for sure is that the Word of God is true.
Mark: Yes. The Word of God is alive.
CeCe: It's alive.
Andrew: Living.
Mark: It is open to interpretation, but how do you know you're interpreting it right? That's a good question. I mean, if some of it is just like, I mean, there's a scripture in the Old Testament that says, if a woman sees a man, her husband and a man fighting – I need to find this Scripture. I read it one day, and I was appalled and jumped back over to the New Testament and haven't looked back since. But it says something about if you see your husband fighting with other men and you intervene and you accidentally touch the testicles of the other man, you're to cut her hand off, show her no mercy. Now, that doesn't sound like Jesus to me. I believe you have to look at the Old Testament through the lens of Jesus or it'll mess you up.
CeCe: Well. You are so funny. Well, it's so important that you read the whole Word of God and that you read it within context and that you know what's going on, as opposed to... A lot of times, like if you go to that Scripture and you just open up the Bible, let me just read that, then of course, you know what I'm saying? But if you read the whole thing, then you're understanding it's all connected, you know. And then to the New Testament, again, God is sovereign. He's perfect. And, and everything lines up with this.
Mark: I'm so thankful for Jesus.
CeCe: Me too.
Mark: I think Jesus saved God from me.
CeCe: He saved God for all of us.
Mark: The Old Testament side of God, he just seemed like he's in a bad mood half the time.
CeCe: Yeah, but it's not him. It's sin.
Andrew: So it's our context and perspective in a way. It's how we filter it.
CeCe: Right. And you've got to filter it through his eyes. If you filter through yours, it's not gonna happen.
Mark: Thank God for Jesus.
CeCe: You gotta filter through his eyes.
Andrew: I think that God's Word, because it's living, is still continuing to be born in and through us as we submit.
CeCe: Yeah. Is that that word again? Did you say it? Submit, yes.
Andrew: I feel like a traitor to my generation.
CeCe: No, it's more like a leader.
Andrew: Okay. Okay.
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