Truth Be Sung featuring Ellie Holcomb and Amy Grant
Legendary pop singer-songwriter Amy Grant and indie-folk singer-songwriter Ellie Holcomb share the heart behind their personal spiritual journeys and the role of women in the story of scripture.
Transcript
Mark: Dinner Conversations is brought to you by Food for the Hungry, an incredible relief and community development organization serving those with physical and spiritual needs around the world for 50 years this year.
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Mark: This episode's gonna be fantastic. We have the renowned, forever-famous Amy Grant.
Andrew: And lovely.
Mark: And lovely. And then we have a new up-and-coming superstar, Ms. Ellie Holcomb.
Andrew: Mmhmm.
Mark: And her dad happens to be Brown Bannister, who produced Amy Grant when Ellie was a little girl.
Andrew: Way back when. It's a cool full circle. And both of these women are part of a new project called Faithful And the project of Faithful, it's a book and music project that highlights the role of women throughout the history of sharing the story of Jesus, going all the way back to scripture and celebrating their role all the way to today.
And, of course, I think through their amazing music, their amazing voices, their big hearts for other people and for God, that these two women are a perfect example of how women have played an important role in sharing the story of Jesus throughout time.
Mark: And there's one seat left at the table, and it's yours. So let's join the conversation.
Mark: Your father produced Michael English's first record.
Ellie: Oh, yeah.
Mark: Which was actually a record, probably.
Ellie: A vinyl, yeah.
Mark: Vinyl.
Ellie: Old school.
Mark: Well, I was in the Gaither Vocal Band at that time, and I wrote this lyric, and Buddy Greene put some music to it, called "Mary, Did You Know?" And I cornered your dad-
Ellie: Never heard of it. Just kidding.
Andrew: Always does.
Mark: Well, if it wasn't for your daddy, you would never have heard of it.
Ellie: Really?
Mark: Yeah.
Ellie: What?
Mark: Because I cornered-
Ellie: How does my dad not tell me these stories?
Mark: Your dad, he might not know it. Your dad, this was probably… Well, it's '91-
Andrew: Early '90s.
Ellie: Okay.
Mark: '91. And I cornered your father. I knew he was producing Michael's record, and I'd played the demo for Michael, but he hated it 'cause Buddy Greene did it in that country- You know, Buddy Greene?
Ellie: Oh yeah, oh yeah, he did it in Buddy form.
Mark: So I cornered your dad and I said, "I got a song Michael needs to do on that record," and I quoted him the lyric. I didn't even know the melody yet. I quoted him the lyric, and he fell back against that limo all at the right places. When I said, "The child that you delivered will soon deliver you," he went, "Oh." And then I said, "When you kiss your little baby, you've kissed the face of God." He went, "Oh." I said, "I got it."
Ellie: I got it, I got it.
Mark: And then he took it out of that country vibe and created the definitive to this day, 'cause I've probably heard a lot of them, cut of "Mary, Did You Know?" That intro that he created is the definitive one.
Ellie: Oh my goodness.
Mark: And so from there, it went from Michael to Kathy Mattea to Kathleen Battle to-
Andrew: Cee Lo.
Mark: A lot after that.
Andrew: The Cee Lo of the Braxtons.
Mark: But your father, so would you please tell him from me, "Thank you"?
Ellie: I will tell him thank you. And from me. And for all of us.
Andrew: Actually, yeah, that probably did something for you, too.
Ellie: And then I'll just say, "Thank you for writing it." Oh my goodness.
Mark: Well, hey, listen. It was God. I hadn't done it twice. You know, if I'd done that twice, I'd think a lot of myself. But Buddy and I both are one-hit wonders.
Ellie: Oh, I love that.
Mark: But we're so grateful. We are so grateful.
Ellie: What a beautiful song.
Mark: Aren't you grateful that God has given you the gift of writing? I mean, you write a lot.
Ellie: I love it. It is-
Mark: When did you write your first song?
Andrew: When did you start writing?
Ellie: You know what? I was in high school, actually.
Andrew: Tell me about it.
Ellie: Well, I started from a really early age, which is so funny, like seventh grade, playing guitar. And I remember the first moment. This is so dumb 'cause my dad's in music. This makes him sound bad, kind of. But I remember learning all these chords and my fingers were hurting and it was hard. And all of a sudden, I figured out I could use the guitar to sing a song. And it was just "Jingle Bells." And then it was Joan, what's her name?
Mark: Baez?
Ellie: Baez. The "If God-
Mark: Osborne.
Ellie: Joan Osborne. "What If God was One of Us."
Andrew: Oh, yeah. That's perfect.
Ellie: Yeah, a child of the '90s. Or a child of the '80s.
Andrew: Yeah, we get it.
Ellie: But I was like, you know, in middle school in the '90s. I was like, "Oh my goodness," 'cause I just love to sing. I grew up, I mean, grew up around music. Mom and Dad said, "Life is a musical." And so all of a sudden, they're like, "Oh my goodness, she's singing about everything you're doing." So singing feels like breathing to me, and it feels like prayer.
And so from a really young age, as soon as I figured out I could play the guitar and sing at the same time, I started writing. And started writing, two things, one, my first song is on my first little EP. It's from a Psalm. It's from Psalm 108.
Andrew: It was the first song you wrote?
Ellie: It was the first song I wrote.
Mark: What does it say? How do you do it? Do you write the-
Ellie: It's "My heart steadfast, O God." It's just literally the psalm.
Mark: The psalm, okay.
Ellie: Like, put to Psalm 108. It's not the whole psalm.
Mark: So you write the melody?
Ellie: But I just wrote a melody to it. And then, after that, I wrote a couple of psalm songs, and then I was like a bad version of Taylor Swift for a few years.
Andrew: I was thinking about how you said, through music, how it creates a space for you to pray, like that's how you began writing. And I was thinking like, the last few years, you've talked about this, how the last few years in your peer group, even in your own family, of course, but this kind of persistence of things untimely. You know, everything from untimely deaths, to divorce, to a lot of persistence that obviously have pain, right? Did music become a safe spot? One, how did that shape your faith perspectives? That's what I'm most interested in. What was that season and how did it begin to… I mean, was there elements of doubt?
Ellie: Oh, certainly. I mean, I'm just… Here's the deal. I'm so thankful for David and for the psalms. He makes me feel normal. But honestly, writing has been, for me, even from the time I was writing heartbreak songs, I just was processing my life and my faith through song. And it literally feels, it feels like breathing to me. And so during that season, it was like pain compounded. So I had to walk through painful things, through heartache, through loss before, but never a longer season. Now I know in the Bible, there are seasons of like 40 years of wandering in the desert. So it's nothing like that, but-
“I’m so thankful for David and for the psalms. He makes me feel normal.”
Andrew: But it is something.
Ellie: Three years of a lot of really, really painful stuff. And so absolutely I had a lot of moments of doubt. And in the same breath, what I found, as I felt like I was in this season where all everything was crumbling around us, I felt like I was sitting in a pile of ashes and rubble. What I encountered there is the presence of God and the companionship of God in deep, deep sorrow.
And so what I started to do is… I still have questions about, I'm like, "Lord, I do not understand. I do not have answers." I don't have any answers, but I do have a lot of stories of Jesus showing up in the middle of a lot of pain and bringing comfort and hope that this wasn't the end of the story.
Andrew: Did you experience… Was that presence a different feeling or even a different… Was there a revelation to have like, "Oh, this is who God is I never knew Him to be."
Ellie: Yeah, absolutely. I think-
Mark: Well, what happened? I don't know the...
Ellie: Oh yeah. That's a good question. Well, it started off very dear friends of ours walked through so much pain leading up to a really painful divorce. And then we had a friend with-
Andrew: Peers of ours, right? Young, younger.
Ellie: Peers, yeah, our age, But we were both in the wedding. You know, just one of these, one of these… And, you know, when it's like your best guy friend and your best girl friend, it just was intense. It was heavy. And there was so much pain and brokenness, as there is, well, in any relationship really. But especially the divorce, it just was heavy.
And then we had friends of ours, same stage of life, walk through just losing their baby 36 hours after the baby was born. And they knew that there wasn't a strong chance of their baby surviving. Some chromosomal kind of disorder there. And so walked through losing baby Blake.
And then walked through years of infertility with another couple, friend of ours, who… It's seemingly an amazing story of God's redemption in this adoption story that God seemed to be writing. And then when the mom had some drug issues and had relapsed three times, and at 37 weeks lost the baby that they were gonna adopt. And so it felt like, I just remember shaking my fist like, "God, this felt like the story that you were gonna write of redemption." And now this just feels like a cruel trick. Like, what in the world? So it was walking through the pain and the ache of that family member who checked into rehab for alcohol, for addiction.
And so all of these things kind of compounding over the course of two and a half, three years.
Mark: And where did you end up? I mean, how did you-
Ellie: On the floor.
Mark: But I mean, how did you get through it? Like, I just talked to some who throw God away.
Andrew: Do you get through it?
Mark: I have friends who are now atheists.
Ellie: Who have walked because of that kinda pain.
Andrew: Because of pain?
Mark: Because of stuff. Yeah, divorce. He was so broken. I think it's the divorce. It could be many, many other things. I don't know. But he's now an atheist. And I wonder how you didn't throw God out?
Ellie: Yeah. You know, I threw a lot of questions His way and a lot of doubt His way, but I think what happens is we all have a choice when we're in the middle of pain and you have the choice to shake your fist and be angry with God. There's freedom for that, of course. Like, He can handle that.
Mark: Right.
Ellie: Which I love about Him. And I love that you see that in the psalm. In one Psalm, David is like, "Where are You?" And some of them end in utter despair. Psalm 81. I mean, there are psalms where it's not like tied in a bow at the end.
Andrew: It doesn't, yeah.
Mark: Right, right.
Ellie: And then some psalms, I'm like, "David, freaking A, how long..." Er, I hope that's okay.
Mark: It's alright, it's alright.
Ellie: Sorry, I said that.
Mark: Nobody in my crowd knows what that means.
Andrew: Yeah, freaking awesome.
Ellie: Yeah, freaking awesome.
Mark: They've never heard it.
Ellie: How long did it take you to get to "But God"? Like, "But God, did this take you three years to write? Did it take you 10?" At the end of the day, we have that choice to trust and to, you know, it's okay to be angry and to doubt, or to despair and reject who He is. And I kept finding myself at that place where I wanted to despair. But I'm like, "I don't know what else I have to keep me going but You."
Andrew: Yeah, press into.
Ellie: And I'm so grateful that what I found to be very true and to be very comforting is that, in some ways, I think that God's answer to suffering is "Me too." Like, He was a man of sorrows, well acquainted with grief. And so I encountered that man of sorrows in a place of deep sorrow and deep loss, walking through that with-
Mark: Alright, let me ask you-
Andrew: It's like-
Mark: Oh, go ahead.
Andrew: It's like God is our father becoming God who is our friend. You know, that's what pain has… And I think of like, you were saying trusting, like the story of your friends who were leading up to adoption, infertility, then this beautiful adoption story that seems to be unfolding, and then totally unravels. In my mind, it's like in a lot of our life, we trust a story, and at some point, we get to where we have to literally trust God.
“At some point, we get to where we have to literally trust God.”
Ellie: The ultimate storyteller.
Andrew: Right. It's like we trust in this path. We're like, "Here's where it's going and here's where it's leading," and then when it doesn't, it's like, "This is what we're left with."
Ellie: Yeah, and it feels like rubble. Like the ruins of a city, you know?
Andrew: Right.
Ellie: And you're just like going, "Okay, Lord." But I think there is this… And here's the deal. I wrote a lot of the songs on my last record not at the end. Like I needed to write them in the middle because I know that I'll face pain again. We all do. This is like a broken world and we're broken people. And so I just wanted to remember, I wanted to mark what I was encountering in the comfort and the hope of God, to even say, even on this side of glory, on this earth, the circumstances may not ever turn out like I want them to. In fact, they haven't. This isn't how I would've written the story.
Mark: Right.
Ellie: But because of what Jesus has done on the cross and because He walked up out of the grave, I have the hope, we have the hope, that this isn't the end of the story.
Mark: Right. And can you imagine going through all that without Him?
Ellie: I can't. And that's where I got to in that place when you're on the floor, shaking your fists at Him, and you're like, "Okay, I'm still mad at You, but I actually need You. I need You too."
Mark: Yes, yes.
Ellie: Like "I need You."
Mark: I'd rather be in the valley with Him than on the mountain without Him.
“I’d rather be in the valley with Him than on the mountain without Him.”
Ellie: It is. It is, truly. And I can honestly say, not 'cause everything is all wrapped up and everything is fine and easy and pretty, but I can say that because of walking through pain and loss and sore and suffering, I think, not in spite of that but because of that, I know and believe that God is real more now because of that not in spite of it, which is so backwards.
Mark: I've wondered sometimes when Christ says, "I've come to give you abundant life," if that doesn't just mean a lot of it.
Ellie: A lot of it.
Mark: Abundant, you know? It's higher mountains and deeper valleys sometimes, I think, with Him, but at least you're with Him.
Ellie: You're with Him. I mean, isn't that it? That life to the full, life abundantly. John 10:10, right?
I mean, my friend Shelly, who's in her 50s, she's on "Young Lifestyle," she's amazing. When we were walking through this season, she was like, "Life to the full." She was like, "I think that means the full scope of life. Great joy, deep sorrow."
Mark: Yeah, taste it all.
Andrew: The whole range of emotion.
Ellie: And the fullness of God's presence in all of those places. And you're like.
Andrew: Yeah, was it-
Mark: Well, I wanna repeat myself.
Andrew: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Mark: 'Cause I've been accused of it. But don't you think that… Oh, crud, now don't turn 60 'cause you forget-
Andrew: You can't remember what you say all the time.
Mark: Yeah, I know. About this subject...
Andrew: Okay, we'll-
Mark: I'll come back to it, crap.
Andrew: Same subject- Trust me, it's a cycle.
Mark: Crap. Yes, I said crap.
Andrew: Was this in the same time period when your dad was diagnosed with cancer?
Ellie: Okay, so great question. If you think of it, come in at any point.
Mark: No, no, no, no, I will.
Andrew: Just slide in.
Ellie: I'm really in trouble when I'm 60, 'cause I'm 35-
Mark: Thank you for honoring your elders.
Ellie: I'm 35 and I'm already like that.
Mark: Do you know how dead I'll be when you're 60? How dead will I be? You picture it, like this.
Ellie: You won't be dead.
Mark: Oh, I'll be dead.
Ellie: You won't be dead, you'll be alive.
Andrew: Yeah, that's it.
Ellie: You will be alive.
Mark: But this will be decaying, and I've kind of grown accustomed to it. But it'll be like this. Kind of picture it.
Ellie: I'm picturing it. And then I'm picturing you dancing.
Mark: And when you're 60, you better come to my funeral, too.
Ellie: I'll be there.
Andrew: Tell them what they're gonna sing when they take you.
Mark: Oh, you wanna know what I'll have them sing when they take me out?
If you don't know me by now
You will never, never, never know me
Wouldn't that be fabulous?
Andrew: Swinging that casket.
Mark: As they're swinging that casket out of the church.
Andrew: Yeah, just throw it right into the ditch.
Mark: Okay, back to you.
Andrew: Dad had cancer.
Mark: Oh, back to cancer.
Oh gosh, why is this thing here? We don't need this.
Andrew: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
Mark: Look, look. I'm caught up in it.
Andrew: Keep it, keep it, keep it.
Mark: Do you need that?
Ellie: I'll give you a mic.
Mark: Alright, okay, back to cancer.
Ellie: No, it looks important.
Andrew: Yeah, thank you.
Ellie: So what's interesting is I walked through all of this pain with dear, dear friends. Like our people that we do life with. And then had written this record, and actually, we were in the process of getting ready to go into pre-production. And my dad is my producer.
Mark: Oh, lucky you.
Andrew: Cool, yeah, right?
Ellie: So that is like, oh, totally lucky.
Mark: You were born in the right family, honey.
Ellie: I totally was. I totally was, and it's just the sweetest. Oh, it's such a gift to get to work together. But we were actually in pre-production, and I was on a trip in the middle of all of that. And, you know, got the text that nobody's ever ready to get, that the test came back positive and that Dad had cancer. And so all of these things that I had walked through and seen God to be faithful, and it was like, "Okay, we're gonna just bring this a little closer to home."
Andrew: Yes.
Ellie: Which is just crazy.
Andrew: Right, plain personal.
Mark: I got it. This is bootcamp.
Ellie: It totally is.
Mark: That's what I was gonna say.
Andrew: Say it right there so the rod will catch it.
Mark: That this time of 80 years on this earth is where we get to learn to walk by faith.
Ellie: It is. It's true.
Mark: And that includes all the crap you're going through.
Ellie: 'Cause you can't see, you don't know the end of the story. And then I do think like… I heard a teacher, Jen Wilkins, she's a Bible teacher down in Texas, and I've been doing some of her studies, and she says our hope isn't in our circumstances, it's in the God who's over all circumstances, and He's writing a good story that will...
Mark: Love that. What's her name?
Ellie: Jen Wilkins.
Andrew: It's so different to experience it personally, right, though? Like I mean, I think about my sister-in-law was diagnosed with cancer at our age, and then my dad was diagnosed with cancer a couple years ago. It's completely different. We walk through cancer stories. And I think it's an honor-
Ellie: It is an honor.
Andrew: To walk through people's dark night of the soul or people's tough journeys. But it's a different, I mean, feeling, if you have those feelings about your parents. I mean, some people may be different. But for me there's a completely… It requires a different level of surrender, in my opinion, don't you think?
Ellie: Oh, absolutely. So even still, having seen God be faithful through all these things, I will never… It is a totally different thing. And I called all my friends who had lost parents, and it just was like, I mean, just wept on the phone with them. I'm like, "Sorry, if you weren't ready to re-deal with this, but I'm so sorry."
Andrew: Right.
Ellie: Just 'cause, man, it hits at another level when you experience it, like somebody that close to you who you love that much. And I'll never forget-
Mark: But is he okay now?
Ellie: He's in remission now. We're so grateful.
Mark: What kind of cancer?
Ellie: It was prostate. And so it was like, which sometimes that is the case, and they're like, "Come back next year." I mean, it's like a slow moving thing. And his was very aggressive. They found it randomly. He was getting his calcium levels tested for something else. And they were like, "Hey, you need to go in now. Your PSA levels are super high."
So I will never forget. It was my mom's birthday. And they, for her birthday, a week after they get this diagnosis, they don't know what the journey's gonna look like, they have no clue what's ahead, Mom is like, "I wanna do a praise and worship night for my birthday. And that's what I want." And we were like, "Okay."
Mark: I love it.
Ellie: Easy. So we have their friends and family all over to have a praise and worship night. And I remember, my son was tiny at the time, I had him strapped to me, like a little baby carrier. I remember standing in the back of the room and going, "God, I know you've been faithful through all this other stuff. I am so scared. I am not ready to lose my dad." And I will never forget watching Mom and Dad that night just run into all the darkness, all the unknown ahead of them, with their hands raised in the air, praising God. And I moved from the outside of the room to the very center of the room that night, somewhat awkwardly stepping over people, you know, just packed in there, just 'cause I felt like they were crazy on one hand, and then it felt irresistible to not just follow their lead on the other, and so I was like, "Okay, I'm going in. I'm gonna choose to rejoice, even in the middle of this."
And we encountered that night the peace and the presence of God in a way that will mark me for the rest of my life. And really, through that whole journey, I remember at one point looking over at my dad and he's got his hands in the air and he just takes this big sigh with this huge smile on his face. Like he'd never been anywhere better. And I am like, "This is so upside down and so backwards."
Mark: Yes.
Ellie: And this is what God promises.
Mark: Is the Kingdom.
Ellie: His presence. It's the kingdom of heaven here on earth coming one day that we'll all experience one day.
Mark: And just think how many more times in eternity we will experience that.
Ellie: We get to experience that.
Mark: You just had a taste, a foretaste, of glory divine, as Fanny Crosby says.
Ellie: A taste. It is. It is. That is it. And it is one of those nights and just journeys that I wanna build an altar to that. 'Cause I'm like, "Okay-
Mark: You'll never forget.
Ellie: "Okay, this doesn't make any sense. This is backwards, upside down, and that's the kingdom of heaven."
Mark: Yes.
Andrew: There's Nadia Bolz-Weber. Have you heard of her? She's like a kind of theologian author, whatever, but she says, "We go to God seeking solutions. What we receive is His presence."
Ellie: That's it. That is it.
Andrew: You know, and I feel like that's what you were experiencing that night.
Mark: Ooh, that's good. Slow down now, I'm from Texas. Wait. You what?
Andrew: You go to God seeking solutions.
Mark: Questions, answers, answers.
Andrew: Right. What you receive is His presence.
Mark: Oh, I love it.
Andrew: Which is what we actually need.
Ellie: It's what we need.
Andrew: That is the satisfaction.
Food for the Hungry Sponsorship Message
Mark: You can help save thousands of lives by giving a generous gift to Food for the Hungry today.
Andrew: In the rural Dera district of Ethiopia, families are experiencing high death rates in children under five due to preventable water-related diseases. They simply don't have access to clean water sources or the infrastructure to practice good health and hygiene.
Mark: Until now. We're talking latrines, Andrew. Your gift today will provide families in the Dera district with clean water, health and hygiene training, hand washing stations, and lifesaving latrines. And to add to the impact, your gift will be matched 22 times, 22 times.
Andrew: It’s a wonderful opportunity, Mark. Food for the Hungry is already laying the groundwork now to provide a safe place to live for hundreds of thousands of vulnerable children and their families in Ethiopia. I think of Jesus's own words in the Gospels where he says, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself." The people of Ethiopia, Mark, they matter to God. And so they matter to us too. Will you help us let them know they are important to God and to their neighbors across the ocean? That's us.
Mark: Give generously today at fh.org/dinner. We're so excited that you'll be giving that we wanna give something to you. We have several add-ons, we call them, where we will be maybe making a special phone call to a friend of yours, a video.
Andrew: It's a little video, that's right, as shoutout videos for your friend's birthday or for an anniversary, or maybe like a Zoom conversation with just you, Mark, and me, or even a Zoom party with you and some of your friends. All these are just a simple way to say thank you for the life-saving gift that you're giving to Food for the Hungry, for our friends in Ethiopia, at fh.org/dinner.
The Faithful Project
Mark: Women have been very important in my journey to know Jesus. First of all my mother, who would tuck me into bed at night, tell me God's gonna use me. My grandmothers were so important to me. And then some of the women in our church, like Delores Sims. You've never heard of her, but she would always woo me to Jesus. And did you know that women were the first ones that learned that Jesus had risen from the dead? And then they went back, told the men, the men didn't believe it until they saw him for themselves. But women have been very important in the message of the Gospel and this new project called Faithful, which is a CD and book.
Andrew: So many of our good friends and people that you have read their literature or you've heard their music, people like Amy Grant and Kelly Minter and Jenny Owens, Sandra McCracken, Sally Lloyd Jones, Trillia Newbell, there's so many wonderful authors and artists, and here's the cool part. They all got together to write about the women of the Bible and then write songs about how women are a part of continuing to share the story of the gospel all throughout history into today, but the artists and the authors combined efforts. So artists, musicians, were writing some of the chapters and authors were helping write some of the music, which I think it's just this shared experience to say that the telling and sharing of the Gospel, the story of God, is written in each of our lives to share and tell to others just like you.
When I think about who first shared the real nuts and bolts of the Gospel, it was women. And so this Faithful Project celebrates that, highlights that, and offers an opportunity, not just for women but also for men, to be invited into that conversation as well. To learn more about the book and the music project called Faithful, go to faithfulproject.com.
Amy Grant and Ellie Holcomb singing “A Woman” from Faithful: Go and Speak
I could not speak it
But you didn't quit when they called you heretic
Mh-mhmm
They said I was too dangerous
So I stood with all the women at a distance
Mhmm
But once my name crossed His lips
How could I keep quiet
He is not ashamed to be seen with me beside Him
Mhmm
I have seen the Lord, I will speak of Him
And nobody could talk me out of it
I have seen the Lord and my Lord's seen me
Oh, He said my name and told me
Go and speak of what you've seen
So I will run and tell the story of
The One denied stayed buried but it is alive
Spirit's setting tongues on fire
Oh, heaven's singing glory, glory, glory
Trees are clapping, clapping, clapping
Rocks are shouting, shouting, shouting
And then there's me, a woman
And I will speak of what I've seen
Go and speak (I will speak) of what you've seen (what I've seen)
Go and speak
Andrew: Thanks for sitting down today with us again.
Amy: And I know it's dinner, but we did just have eggs and bacon.
Andrew: We did. Courtesy of you by the way. I wanna make that real known that you are the one with the hospitality today.
Amy: Well, I'm the one with the hunger too.
Andrew: It's a little practical, isn't it?
Amy: Yes, yes.
Andrew: You know, I wanna talk about the influence of women in our lives. Every man, woman, girl, boy are influenced by women. And when I think about the influence of women in my life, I think about, of course, my mother, Jane, you know? And when I think about what I learned about God and what I'm still learning about God, when I think of the ability to begin to accept myself and to love myself, which I think in turn has helped me to accept and love others more wholeheartedly, that comes from my mother, a large part of that. Who is, has been, is, the most influential woman in your life?
Amy: Oh my goodness. Well, of course I would have to say my mother. And my Grandmother Grant was a great cook, and she loved flowers. She was involved with a garden club. I mean, she knew so much about flowers. And my mother's mother loved men.
I saw women that followed their passions, and that was wonderful. And my great grandmother had a fantastic laugh. Just a chuckle that was always just gurgling underneath. And she lived until I was a junior in college. And she was always also humming under her breath. Always humming, singing some old hymn. But that was in my programming, I do the same thing.
Andrew: There's a project that you've been a part of that's called Faithful, and of course it's celebrating a lot of women's voices today in today's culture. Words, song, exploring the role of the importance of the contribution of women's voices in the story of Scripture, the story of God. What first attracted you to that project?
Amy: The opportunity for community, creative community, is what really interested me. In fact, I had met Andrew Osenga, and I just said, "I feel like I'm sort of in no man's land." I don't know if that was my fault or, but I just said, "I want a community I can plug into." And, I mean, I do have community. But a creative community… You know, I'm 60. And so it's like, even people that started off doing what I was doing went on to other things. And so I had told Andrew, "Think of me. If you do something, please think of me." The first invitation was, "Hey, come be a think tank for a project we want to do."
We were divided up in small groups, twos and threes, and given a woman to study in the Bible. Some of them were nameless. And I thought I knew my Bible pretty well, but I was like, "Who is she? What did she do? Her life is awful. We're supposed to write a song about this?" Like she's part of the epic story of God's love, but her chapter is not good. But then it makes you kind of… You know, everything… You can't help it. You study one person's life and you go, "Oh, we have that similar," or "We have that different," or you just consider the implications of what does it mean to be important, to be vital. How do we define a good life?
It became a project I so wanted to share with other people. And I just threw personal invitations to people, "Would you please download this?” I know it's a ticketed event, but the money that comes from this is actually going to help someone else, so I'm not afraid to ask. And I had several women saying, "Spending an evening with women doesn't really sound good to me." And I said, "I know, I know, but this is not who's had the boob job, who looks better, who's whatever, blah, blah, blah. You're gonna wanna be in this circle." And everyone just said, "Thank you."
Andrew: Yeah, yeah.
Amy: Thank you. It was, yeah.
Andrew: I was gonna say, in the culture that we're in, women being together can't always be simple. I can't speak from firsthand experience, of course, but from observing women with women, that can be a really tough relationship. Some because of culture like, "How am I supposed to present myself?" "How many kids do I have?" "I can't even have kids." Or "What does their landscaping look like?" I mean, there's a lot of comparative opportunities, if taken, that can really divide women.
But what you all have examples here, really I think about the early church, too. Like the early church example to us, what the church could be and can be and should be all the way up 'til today, if we continue to evolve. Well, not even evolve but just continue to replicate that example. You women, you ladies in the Faithful Project set an example that can then be experienced. You didn't just experience it, you set an example. So I think that's beautiful.
I also think tracing the voices of women throughout the story of God is beautiful. But I am curious. You, as a woman, have you ever felt unseen or unheard?
Amy: Yeah, I don't know that I… I think the times that I felt the most unseen and unheard that were damaging to me, and there have been times, have been times when I was unwilling to see myself and to be honest and vulnerable about something that I was uncertain about. What a weird answer.
But I think there are things about having lived a public life that I just think sometimes doing what I felt like I was supposed to do or the job that had been carved out for me. You know, by the time I graduated high school, I was already in it. And I feel like, I wonder… I mean, I wouldn't go back and change anything, but I certainly did some things very poorly, made some awful mistakes. But I think in all the busyness, there were probably a lot of times that I just kind of barreled through life and didn't… I don't know.
I mean, I remember being in therapy at Porter's Call, and Al Andrews, the therapist, saying, "You at this age. Tell me what you think about her." And I said, "I despise her." I despise her. And he said, I forget how old I was at this level of therapy, I think I was in my late 30s, "I want you to go stand beside her and put your arm around that earlier version of yourself and I want you to say, 'You're not doing this by yourself. We're here now, I'm with you, and we'll consider things differently.'"
You know, it's weird. I mean, everything begins inside of us, and whatever message would make us not able to see ourselves, we're the perpetrator as well. And so I think the great thing about women being together is as soon as one says anything vulnerable, it's so refreshing just to say something vulnerable. If it's a party of five, three of the five will say, "I've been in the same place." And I do think that's a unique wiring of women. I don't think women are wired for a pissing contest. I think we're wired for community. And so, you know, as soon as somebody takes off that mask, everybody's like, "Oh God, I just wanted to get rid of that. Thank you." Women want to be seen for who they are with all their messiness and everything if it's safe.
“Women want to be seen for who they are with all their messiness.”
Andrew: If it's safe is, of course, important. And each of us have to journey that and understand our boundaries around that, of course, 'cause there can be vulnerability for vulnerability's sake, not vulnerability for building up sake. But that's a whole nother conversation. The beginning is the ability, the willingness, to be vulnerable. And I do feel that as one of women's great examples in opportunities in our culture is to teach the way of vulnerability and the courage that it requires to be vulnerable. And the beautiful benefit of being vulnerable is that, exactly what you're saying, we learn we're not alone. And what do we most crave to know? I think it's that we're not alone. So it's meeting a very deep desire in us.
I wanna kinda change course here for a second, but a vulnerable thing that happened to you, or that you had to go through, experience, was open heart surgery. Tell me how you discovered that you were gonna have to go under the knife.
Amy: Mm. I went to the doctor with Vince. He's 64. His dad died of a heart attack at 65. And I think any time something's sort of in your gene pool… Both my parents had dementia. Every time I can't find the keys, I'm like, (gasps).
Andrew: It's happening.
Amy: Yeah. But yeah, so I just went with him after he'd done a battery of tests to be there to say whatever the doctors, you know, just to support him. And Dr. John Bright Cage, he said, "Vince, exercise more, eat better. You're fine. I mean, believe it or not, your arteries are crystal clear." And I'm looking at him like, "Are you kidding?" He's like the sausage and bacon and cheeseburger man. It's genetics.
But, yeah, he said, "You're great." And then the doctor looked at me and said, "We need to get you checked out." And so-
Amy: Were you like, "What?"
Amy: I mean, I didn't give it a second thought, you know.
Andrew: Sure, sure.
Amy: And yeah, I went in for some tests. I thought I was gonna be on a treadmill. It was none of that. You know, not the dreaded treadmill test. Two days after the tests, I woke up to a message, "Call me." Anyway, and I called and he was like, "Man, you're wired so uniquely on the inside." And it was the radiologist looking at. And yeah. And so he said, "You have a thing that has to be fixed, so." Been there my whole life.
Andrew: And just never had any indicator that that's what was going on?
Amy: No. And he did say things like… I mean, Vince and I were there and they were doing like an ultrasound. And I remember him saying, "You know, Vince, this will be fine, fine, fine, then catastrophic." And so, you know, that word, I was over on the table, I was like, "What was that word?"
But it wasn't until after the surgery and there was an article in the newspaper when I turned 60. Clearly nothing going on in Nashville on that day. But I am a hometown girl. But I was reading the article, and Dr. Cage said, "She would've been dead by 62."
Andrew: Wow.
Amy: And all I thought was, "A+ for bedside manner." A+.
Andrew: I mean, it's interesting. I think it was probably a few weeks afterwards, and we were texting or talking, and I remember just everything you articulated was so infused with this kind of underlying peace and surrender. And a part of this episode, you know, we've been talking to Ellie Holcomb, of course who was Ellie Banister, which of course is the daughter of Brown, who was such a pivotal part of your many years of recording, not just your first years of recording.
She was saying when Brown began going through kind of just thinking through the diagnosis of cancer and all that implied for his life at that point in time, that they had in their home, her parents kind of hosted just an intimate gathering of close friends, kind of a worship night just of singing just together and praying together. And really that, while she was still wrestling with the realities of the diagnosis and still wrestling with "What does this mean for my dad's life?" and how she felt about that, she's watching her parents on their knees with their hands up in the air, just in a total posture of surrender.
And that's what I saw, those indicators, a lot in your language around it. And what I'm curious about is, where do you find the freedom? Like where does the freedom, the permission, even the courage, come from to just truly open up your hands and say, "Alright, whatever you got, God. Here we go."
Amy: Yeah. I'm thinking a lot of things right now. First off, knowing that at some point my body will fail. And being squarely in the third third of my life, I'm looking at all kinds of things that I wonder how I want to use my imagination and creativity for how they could be different. And I think the real gift to me in facing something that could have been the end is it just reminded me that we all have just a certain amount of time. And this might just be something I have conjured up totally in my imagination. But my faith compels me to say, at whatever point somebody dies, if it's a heroic death or a tragic death or a violent death at the hands of somebody else, in my mind, right on the other side of that last breath is the arms of love saying, "Tap out, good job. Okay, now you go on. Alright, it's your turn. Now, come on." You know, just like this ever-evolving story. And so, you know, through the death of loved ones, I've just had to say, death is not the punishment. Death is just the end of this time tube. That's it. Not to be feared.
Like somebody will say, "What are the things on your bucket list you want to accomplish?" That might be one way to look at it. But recently, I've just been going, "I want to really live fearlessly." I don't know what that means, you know? But I don't know what that means.
You know, I've been praying most days of my life for half my life, since I was 30, "Lord, lead me today to those I need and those that need me, and let something I do have eternal significance." And, you know, I mean, wouldn't it be amazing if we were all so intricately connected and we weren't responsible so much for each other as we were just if we just welcomed each other, if we just made ourselves available, if we made what we have available. Not the responsibility to fix it, but you know.
I feel like the little boy with the five loaves and two fish. It's not his job. All he did was go, "I'm here, I got something," you know? I mean, what a radical ripple effect would it be in a world of scarcity and fear if we were brave enough to just cannonball into the cesspool, you know?
To take it back to the Faithful Project, every one of us is a part of the story God's telling. And to what depth are we willing to be engaged? And I just think, I think as time gets less and less, we find ourselves going, "Did I leave it all on the table?" "Did I leave it all in that race that I ran?"
Andrew: Well, in this chapter of your life, I would think, and I'm heading towards that eventually, hopefully, you know, I think that's the beautiful perspective that you get to have, having lived this length of life, is that you get to say, "What am I holding onto it for?" And therefore, you're able to release it in a way that I probably still have not quite developed enough, experienced enough, mature enough. I'm hoping if I can listen well, then I can learn well. And maybe before I get to 70, 80, you know, before I'm at the very last stride, I can actually already be open and can already be extending. And receiving, too, because one of my issues is receiving, so-
Amy: I did think one thing.
Andrew: Okay.
Amy: This can be a PS. Jimmy Gentry, part of Highway 96, there's a name for him. I've said this so many times, but while he's still alive, and if he dies, I'm gonna keep saying it, but, you know, there are tiny lessons that change your life. And when my son, Matt, was in high school and, oh, I just couldn't figure out what all, you know. I'd gone through a divorce, I was like, "Help me," and I drove out to see Jimmy. He's in his 90s now, you know. But back then, he just said in his Southern drawl, "I'm gonna give you five phrases, easy to remember. And I want you say these phrases as often as possible to your son and to yourself, and to everyone."
Anyway, and he held up his big, old gnarled hand, and he said, "Now we're gonna remember it by how many fingers I'm holding up. The first phrase I want you to know is 'How can I help you?' Say that as often as you can to your son, and to yourself, and to everybody. 'How can I help you?' Now fold your thumb down. Now, 'I'm proud of you,' as often as you can, just say that." He held down another finger. "Now you know what this phrase is." And I said, "I love you."
Andrew: Yes.
Amy: He said, "Two words?" And I went "Thank you?" And he said, "Yes." And he said, "Now this is the most important of all." And it was the Southern drawl. And I'm so crazy about him, and I was like, "I wanna get this right." I was like, "Jesus?" And he was like, "Nope." "Love?" "No. No, that's not it, Amy." "Forgiveness?" "Mm-mm, that's good, but that's not it. This is the most important one of all."
And I just kept, kept, kept, kept, you know, the songwriter in me, (imitates motor). "Nope, nope. Everything hangs on this one." And I said, "I don't know what it is." And he said, "We. That's the most important of all." You know, it changes everything.
Andrew: Yeah.
Amy: Houston, we have a problem.
Andrew: Yes, exactly. I have a problem.
Amy: I'm up here in the craft. I'm in the craft. I know.
Andrew: Yeah.
Amy: I feel that way about the world politics, every table where we are seemingly on opposite sides. We have a problem.
Andrew: Yeah. Yeah.
Amy: We.
My ex-husband, when we were first trying to find our way through. We. We need to learn reconciliation, and we have.
Andrew: Isn't that interesting? We, yeah.
Amy: We.
Andrew: Even in that most tense and personal experience
Amy: We, I know. When we look at it that way, we.
Andrew: Mmhmm, yeah.
Amy: Yeah.
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Andrew: Yeah, it's taking an approach to the Bible from being just simply informational to really being invitational. So there's a lot of prompts in this Bible to journal alongside Scriptures. It gives you opportunity to pray certain Scriptures at different seasons of your life, to meditate on the Scripture. There's beautiful artwork in here that's really cool cause it's not just like some kind of Sunday school artwork. They're using like da Vinci and beautiful pieces of classic art to really just get us to imagine, to be able to use all of our senses as we enter into Scripture, so that we really step into the story of Scripture, not just see it as words on a page but as part of a living, breathing active part of our lives. And you know what? I asked my brother one time, who's a pastor, I said, "Why is the Bible so important?" And he said exactly what you said a second ago, because it is the greatest written revelation of who God is. And so it gives us the opportunity to know God but also to be a part of God's story. That's the Abide Bible.
Mark: So go to abidebible.com to get your copy today.
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Andrew: I wanna take us into a new conversation about motherhood. Okay, I think about you're a particular parent.
Mark: Okay, well, I'm gonna have a cigarette break.
How has it changed your image of God? Is that what you were gonna ask?
Andrew: Yeah.
Mark: Okay, alright, let me ask it. How's that change… No. How does it change you? 'Cause I've never had a kid. He's never had a kid. What happens?
Ellie: You know.
Mark: Now don't laugh over her.
Ellie: No, it's been one of my favorite things to do that I don't know how to do.
Mark: Wow.
Ellie: You know? I mean, I remember coming home, like we were leaving the hospital with Emmylou, they're like, "Okay, you can go," and I'm like, "What?"
Andrew: Where?
Ellie: Don't have to pass a test?
Mark: Yeah.
Ellie: I mean, I do. I have no clue what I'm doing. I love this kid so much. That's about all I got going for me. And so I think it has been one of the most humbling, beautiful things.
I'll never forget being two and a half months, and Emmylou is tiny, we had just been to the hospital 'cause she had a hip dysplasia, which I had when I was a little girl.
Mark: Oh.
Ellie: And so she's in a brace and two-
Mark: One of my dogs had that. I swear. It broke my heart, too.
Ellie: It's hard.
Mark: That's as close as I've got to a kid.
Ellie: It's hard.
Mark: But it's dead. Anyway, go ahead.
Ellie: But it's dead.
Mark: Pit bull next door. So you've never had a pit bull kill one of your children?
Ellie: I've never had a pit bull kill one of my children.
Mark: You've never had a pit bull kill one of your children.
Ellie: Jesus, may it never be so. I'm so sorry. That sounds horrible.
Mark: Right in front of me. But it sucked.
Andrew: It killed one of your kids?
Ellie: That is terrible.
Mark: But you know what?
Ellie: I'm gonna go and write a song about that.
Mark: But I believe dogs go to heaven, Psalm 36:6. But anyway, back to you.
Ellie: I'm gonna go look that up later.
Mark: Look that up.
Ellie: Oh my gosh.
Mark: He saves humans and animals alike. It's in the Bible.
Ellie: I love it, I love it, I love it. It's a new earth. There's gonna be animals there, for sure.
Okay, so two and a half months in, and just so you know what our life was like, at two weeks we were on the road. So I was in my husband's band at the time, and we were touring when she was two weeks.
Mark: So you're learning how to be a mother and be a mother on the road.
Andrew: Two weeks.
Ellie: Yes, yeah, it was crazy. And y'all, we were in a van. It was not like in a bus, glamour touring. It was different.
Andrew: Uh-uh, with nannies.
Ellie: No, yeah, it was like different. It was different venues every night in hotels. And she was an amazing little traveler. But at two and a half months, we had been touring and we were on another trip. And then we had a four month run that we were doing, opening for a band called NEEDTOBREATHE, so that was gonna be just intense. And I was exhausted and so overwhelmed. I mean, just so overwhelmed, and I will never forget. I just remember going, "Okay, I'm gonna have to go. I just need to go take a rest 'cause I'm not okay." Like, I'm not okay.
Andrew: Yeah, this is about to-
Ellie: It was one of those times I looked up… Do y'all know "Jesus Calling" by Sarah Young?
Mark: I love it.
Ellie: It almost always is exactly what I need to hear on the day.
Mark: Isn't it?
Ellie: So I looked up the day, and I'm like, "That's not even working."
Mark: Oh, it's not even working.
Ellie: I'm like, "If 'Jesus Calling,' the word of the Lord, I need it." I'm like, "That was not." I'm like, "It's the wrong day."
Andrew: I'm done.
Ellie: You know, I flipped a couple days before, and I'm like, "No, no, no, no."
Mark: No, no, no. Oh, that is hysterical.
Ellie: It's literally the one time that like, it hasn't been exactly, perfectly what I needed. So I was just like, "Oh, oh, Lord." And so I am like, "God, I need to hear from You." And it was one of the sweetest. This is another like altar Ebenezer moment for me. But I got up in the little bunk, and I'm just, tears are streaming down my face. I'm trying to not just sob 'cause I feel so ill-equipped to do this mom thing and this work thing at the same time. And then so tired. And I felt like I just sensed God saying, "I've given Emmylou to you to raise and to nurture and to grow, but she's mine."
Mark: Ooh.
Ellie: And I am gonna take such good care of her. And I was like, "Okay.
Mark: Oh my goodness.
Ellie: And then on top of that, on top of that, "I know I've given you the mom role. I've given you this calling to be a mother. But before you're a mother, you are My beloved daughter, and I'm gonna take such good care of you."
Mark: Oh my gosh, He talks to you so much better than He talks to me.
Ellie: I know, He talks so good.
Andrew: You don't need Jesus Calling, just write it-
Mark: How did you get such a connection?
Ellie: Oh my gosh, I don't know.
Andrew: Ellie's calling.
Ellie: But I literally-
Mark: But isn’t it the truth?
Ellie: It was like I go back to that moment. So it's not all the time that that kind of thing happens. But I go back to that moment-
Mark: I've had 'em.
Ellie: All the time, all the time, and I write it down and I keep telling the story.
Mark: Aren't you thankful you have those to look back on?
Ellie: Oh my goodness.
Mark: And writing them down is good 'cause when you turn 60, your memory is shot.
Ellie: You forget. Or 35 already, so I'm like-
Mark: So two kids, two kids. Do you want more of them?
Ellie: Yeah, 35 with two kids.
Mark: Do you want more children?
Ellie: Oh yes.
Mark: Yeah, how many?
Ellie: Well, I'll take three.
Mark: Right now?
Ellie: Or however many the Lord wants to give us.
Mark: Really?
Ellie: You know, I come from-
Mark: So you think you've got it down now?
Ellie: No, not at all, not at all.
Mark: But you're willing to risk another ax murderer in the world You know, I contend, if you have eight, you're really taking...
My guy friend, my camera rod, has eight kids. He's gotta have an ax murderer in there somewhere.
Andrew: My statistics are if someone screwed up.
Mark: Well, somebody does. But how wonderful, seriously. I think it's a wonderful thing that you're doing over the… I mean, how fun that-
Ellie: You get to see everything again.
Mark: And their personalities are so different, right?
Ellie: Totally different.
Andrew: And do you see elements of yourself already in some of them that you're like, "Oh my goodness, not what I wanted"?
Ellie: Oh, man. It's like a mirror. It is like the best accountability partner you've ever had. I mean, and my little girl is, I mean, she's like-
Mark: 'Cause they'll repeat it back.
Ellie: Well, and she's like, "5:30. Mom, you need to go do your Bible study." I'm like, "Oh, Jesus."
Mark: You are kidding. In the morning or at 5:30 p.m.?
Ellie: 5:30 a.m.
Mark: Your daughter is up?
Ellie: 5:30 to 6, she's up.
Mark: And checking your Bible study records?
Ellie: She used to sleep 'til 9. I don't know what happened. Something changed.
So she's like, "Mom, we need to go do our Bible study together." Now her Bible study right now is listening to Winnie-the-Pooh audio books.
Andrew: Good enough.
Ellie: And then drawing what pictures of what she's thankful for.
And then you just, there are so many times. I mean, just the other day, a lot of times when she gets in trouble, that kid, she knows that we love her. She knows that we love her. But I always tell this story. You know, gosh, I was about to go play a women's conference down in Texas. And I usually tell her where I'm going 'cause she gets sad when I leave. So it helps her to prep.
Andrew: This is where you are.
Ellie: So she traces where I'm going on a map that's next to our kitchen.
I was like, "Emmylou, I'm going to Texas, but this time I'm playing for younger girls. They're a little closer to your age, middle school and high school. And I get to sing and talk to them about Jesus. And is there anything you want me to tell them about?" And, y'all, she put her little hand over her heart and she goes, "Oh, Mama. Tell them all about me."
Mark: Did you tell them that?
Ellie: Oh, yes, absolutely.
Mark: Oh yes, you did. How much material has she given you?
Ellie: Is that not tons?
And I was like, "Oh, baby." And I just did what y'all did. I laughed and I said, "I will, baby, I will."
But here's the deal.
Mark: I love that.
Ellie: I got to thinking about it. And I am like, "Man, she knows that I could stand up and talk about her for an hour and a half," you know? She knows that we love her. And even if she's in trouble, usually, she'll be in time out, she's like, "But you still love me, Mom." And I'm like, "Yes. Shut your mouth. You're in trouble."
Andrew: Turn around, I love you.
Ellie: "You're in time out," yeah.
Mark: But just still love me.
Ellie: "But still love me, Mom."
But somewhere along the way, I think that we forget we get into trouble. You know, we have shame, we have things that we're…
And even the other day, she got in trouble for interrupting. Anyway, I was having a conversation with an adult, and she was whining, interrupting, and didn't listen. So I was like, as soon as the person left, I was like, "You, little miss, are in trouble. Get yourself up into time out." And she was like, just sobbing. And so literally she said to me… So this is a year later, that story was a year ago. She goes. (sobs) She was just sobbing, she doesn't usually cry that much. She usually just is sitting there fine, knows the deal. And she was like, "Mom, do you not love me anymore?"
Mark: Oh my.
Ellie: I didn't do anything different than any other time that she got in trouble. And I said, "Baby, what on earth would make you think that?" She said, "Well, I was hiding in the closet 'cause I knew that I was in trouble, and I thought you would be more scared that I was gone." I was like, "I knew you were hiding in the closet." And she was like, "I thought you would be glad to find me."
Mark: I thought you would be more scared that I was gone. She's smart.
Andrew: Look at that, yeah.
Ellie: She's smart.
Mark: She's already psycho-analyzing.
Ellie: She's like, "I know I'm gonna be in trouble, I'm gonna hide, and then she'll just be relieved that I'm not missing anymore."
Mark: Brilliant.
Ellie: And I was like, "Baby, I knew you were in the closet, and you are still in trouble. And there is nothing that you could ever, ever, ever." But already those little lies come into her head and I'm like, "Babe-
Andrew: Isn't that amazing how that's intuitive? Like there's a message.
Ellie: It happens in all of us.
Mark: I contend that you and others who have had children will have a greater judgment. Let me tell you why.
Ellie: Oh, man. No kidding.
Mark: Let me tell why.
Andrew: I hope you enjoyed coming today.
Ellie: I already know it. I'm like, "Oh Lord Jesus."
Mark: Because you have experienced that kind of love, that parent to child.
Andrew: No strings attached.
Mark: And how rude to think God doesn't think of you that way.
Ellie: It is.
Mark: And how rude to Him.
Ellie: It is. Well, that's exactly what I thought when she said that to me. I'm like, "I know exactly how this feels." 'Cause you're like, "There's no way, God, you can love me after I did something like that. I know better, God. I know better."
Andrew: I'll go hide.
Ellie: Literally, I'm just gonna go and hide. And it's a story from the beginning of time. And I love… Do y'all know Sally Lloyd-Jones?
Andrew: Oh yeah.
Ellie: She is an amazing author. She calls herself an advocate for children, and she writes children's books. She written "The Jesus Storybook Bible."
Andrew: And she wrote the Jesus Storybook, which you may have-
Ellie: Which the subtitle of that is "Every Story Whispers His Name." And so she takes every story that you would typically hear about or read in Sunday school, Old Testament and New, and weaves Jesus throughout each one, points to Jesus in each story.
Andrew: It's fantastic, yeah.
Ellie: It is so beautiful. But the way she talks about the Garden is that when Satan is talking to them, when the snake is talking to Eve, he's like, "Poor you. God must not really love you if he doesn't want you to have that fruit." And it says that Eve believed the lie that would sink down into the heart of every human being forever. Does God really love me? Does God really love me? You're just like, "Oh my goodness."
And so that, when she said that, I'm like, "Oh my goodness, This is me with God all the time."
Andrew: Absolutely.
Ellie: Do you really, though? Like you're allowing this thing to happen. I know you could do something about it. Do you really love me still?
Man, so I just am so grateful for the chance to preach to her what I need to preach to myself.
“I just am so grateful for the chance to preach to [my daughter] what I need to preach to myself.”
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