Faith Shall Be Sight featuring Ginny Owens and Kelly Minter
Dove Award-winning singer-songwriter Ginny Owens and author-speaker Kelly Minter are women of song and scripture. Plus, they are seminarians! Join us along the streets of New York City as Ginny shares her perspectives of being blind in the Big Apple. Plus Kelly shares how scripture can speak to us in an everyday way.
Transcript
Mark: Dinner Conversations is brought to you by Food for the Hungry, an incredible relief and community development organization serving those with physical and spiritual needs around the world for 50 years this year.
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Mark: I am excited about this episode because we got to go to New York City, and we got to interview Ginny Owens. What a delight. Now you've known her for years.
Andrew: I've known Ginny for a long time. She's been a very close friend. She lives in New York City now. She took us to one of her favorite restaurants for this dinner conversation. And of course, she is going to seminary, that's why she moved to New York City.
Ginny has a unique perspective in every way. One of the most unique things about Ginny's perspective is that she doesn't have sight, and hasn't since she was a little child. In fact, she taught us how it might be to be blind walking down the street. She blindfolded us. That's something you gotta see.
Mark: And Kelly Minter is in this conversation. You're going to love meeting her. Andrew had an incredible conversation with Kelly, and just this afternoon, I got to have a conversation with her too. You're going to love Kelly Minter.
Andrew: Yeah, she's a great author, teacher, speaker, Bible studier.
So get ready to walk the streets of New York with us.
Mark: Yeah, and there's one seat left at the table, and it's yours. So let's join the conversation.
Mark: Can you believe we're in New York City? Going to visit our friend Ginny Owens. Yeah. She walks three flights of stairs every day.
Andrew: Are you out of breath?
Mark: I felt my glutes burn.
Ginny: Password please.
Mark: I didn't even know I had glutes.
Andrew: What glutes are left.
Mark: Hi Ginny.
Andrew: Ginny.
Ginny: Hi, guys, how's it going?
Mark: How are you? I didn't realize I had glutes till I climbed your stairs.
Ginny: I know, they're so good for that. They're a great workout.
Andrew: Hey.
Ginny: Hi, how are you, friend? I'm going to take you to such a good place.
Mark: Oh, good.
Ginny: You're going to love it, but you're never going to want to leave New York ever.
Mark: Well, let's go.
Andrew: Let's go.
Mark: Take us to breakfast.
Ginny: Let's go have some food.
Mark: I was 14.
Ginny: Yep.
Mark: I became best friends with a blind girl at camp. She told me what color her eyes were. She picked them out. So we became good friends. And I was going to lead her up at camp, 500 kids there. And it's an old, what is it? Chicken coop that had been turned into...
Ginny: Oh my gosh.
Mark: A sawdust tabernacle thing, okay.
Ginny: Sawdust tabernacle, I love this.
Mark: Trust me. This is Texas, like in ancient Texas.
Ginny: We're going right.
Mark: And so there's all these poles, there's no walls.
Ginny: Yeah.
Mark: There's poles in the ceiling.
Ginny: Yeah.
Mark: I go around the pole. Evidently, I didn't lead her around the pole.
Ginny: Oh no, no.
Mark: Boom, she hit her head on a pole. And then she's sang "He Touched Me" while a knot grew on her head.
Ginny: Oh.
Mark: Well, how do you know-
Andrew: Yeah.
Mark: We can't keep walking?
Ginny: Well, because…
Andrew: We stopped.
Ginny: I can hear the traffic on the left, like there's the parallel traffic stopped.
Andrew: Oh.
Mark: Okay.
Andrew: So like when they go.
Ginny: Yeah. So now we can go.
Andrew: I see. So do you just think contextually the city is easier? Like when you lived in Nashville-
Ginny: Yeah.
Andrew: Especially in Franklin.
Ginny: Yeah.
Andrew: Right, in a suburb.
Ginny: Yeah.
Andrew: And there's sidewalks everywhere, but there's no- Is there no context because there's no traffic?
Ginny: It's not. So Franklin and Nashville, not great walking places because there's no context. It's not set up like a grid. Even where there are sidewalks, they don't necessarily make sense. And the street crossings are usually like five or six way stops. They're always kind of odd, especially in downtown Nashville.
Andrew: Instead of like perpendicular and parallel.
Ginny: Yeah, exactly. So it is a lot easier to get around here.
Mark: And you've lived in New York how long?
Ginny: Almost two years.
Mark: Two years.
Andrew: Check out here.
Ginny: Okay.
Andrew: Now how would you know about that big truck right there?
Ginny: I would just hear it.
Andrew: Okay.
Ginny: Like hear that it's taking up space.
Andrew: Oh, hear that it's taking up space.
Ginny: Yeah.
Andrew: So is that how you know how weighty I am?
Ginny: Yes. How much space do you take up.
Mark: How much you think I weigh?
Andrew: Yeah, yeah. He's on the your right.
Ginny: No, we're not playing that game.
Andrew: Come on, feel his elbow.
Ginny: You weigh 150 pounds.
Mark: Oh, aren't you precious, which side?
Do you ever get curious about what people look like?
Ginny: Oh yeah, totally. But not as curious, like I don't think about it too much just because, I don't know, it doesn't matter I guess.
Mark: Yeah.
Ginny: At the end of the day. But I am always curious, especially when I'm getting to know someone or even like, I love to watch like the Grammys and stuff with other people.
Mark: Right.
Ginny: Because...
Mark: They can describe.
Ginny: Yeah. Cause I'm like, what does she look like?
Mark: All right, here we are, y'all.
Andrew: I'm going to try to get us a round table.
Ginny: Okay.
Andrew: So Ginny, come on and I'll help you up.
Mark: Don't lead her into a door.
Andrew: Sorry, sorry. Step up.
Mark: After all that.
Andrew: Sorry.
Mark: Thank you for opening your world to us.
Ginny: Oh, thanks for coming to hang out in my world.
Mark: What are you studying and where?
Ginny: I am getting a master of biblical studies, right?
Mark: Is that at New York University or it's somewhere else?
Ginny: No, it's seminary. So I am in my third- No, I did three semesters of Greek. I'm in my second of Hebrew, and it's crazy times.
Mark: Can you read Greek in braille?
Ginny: I can, and Hebrew.
Mark: You're kidding me.
Ginny: No.
Mark: What is that like?
Andrew: Is it any different?
Ginny: It's pretty cool. Well, the weird thing is there's only six dots possible in braille.
Mark: Okay.
Ginny: So you reuse a lot of those combos for like Greek and Hebrew. So what's really confusing is when you're trying to read Hebrew and you're like, oh wait, this symbol meant something different in Greek, and now it means something different in Hebrew.
Andrew: Braille is a modern invention, right?
Ginny: Maybe 1800s.
Andrew: 1800s. Yeah.
Ginny: Yeah.
Andrew: So, but I mean, there was not a system like that when originally- Like the Dead Sea Scrolls aren't in braille.
Ginny: Right.
Mark: I wonder who came up with braille?
Ginny: Well, Louis Braille was sort...
Mark: There you go.
Ginny: It's named after him.
Andrew: Here's your cup of tea.
Ginny: Thank you.
Mark: So what is the hardest part of living in New York City for a blind person?
Andrew: Yeah, the biggest obstacle.
Mark: Biggest obstacle.
Ginny: I think the biggest obstacle.
Andrew: Thank you, Denisa.
Ginny: Yes. Thank you very much.
Mark: Thank you.
Ginny: And maybe this is the biggest obstacle everywhere, but getting people to move from sort of pity slash compassion to seeing you as a person that they respect and would want to be friends with.
Andrew: Oh, really in the city?
Ginny: Yeah, I think sometimes, at least in the city, there is sort of more of a compassion, but there is, you know, when you're walking down the street, people are always jumping out of your way. You know, you kind of think, I'm not going to eat you I just think that people don't always know what to do with someone who is different, you know, who has a disability, and here especially people live very busy lives, and so they kind of think, oh gosh, if I engage with her, maybe she's going to call me and ask for help.
Mark: Oh.
Andrew: Take up too much of their time.
Ginny: Yeah, totally.
Andrew: You know, culturally, like, even though you're saying like about people being fearful of getting invested in your life because it might require more investment from them than they're used to, right. I think that's even culturally a problem. Like when we worry about people. Like if I meet someone that I like just as a friend or whatever, I start to think, do I have time?
Ginny: Right.
Andrew: I don't want to give my number maybe, but I mean, that sounds real selfish, but you worry that it might cost you.
Mark: Because friends, friendships take time.
Ginny: They do.
Andrew: Yes.
Mark: And you cannot have a deep friendship without taking time.
Ginny: Right.
Andrew: Right.
Ginny: And the truth is the only reason I know that people think that is because I think that, and like people don't know like because when I meet someone and they chatter on and on, I'm like, oh gosh, I can't.
You just realize like friendship is what life is made of, like that's the real stuff of life.
“Friendship is what life is made of.”
Mark: So what is a typical day like for you when you're home?
Ginny: Oh gosh. Right now it's very uninteresting.
Mark: Is it?
Ginny: Well, so I get up pretty early, usually 5:30 or 6. I have to have my sort of time with Jesus in the morning. Otherwise, everything just falls apart.
Mark: Yeah.
Ginny: So I think especially all the studying and stuff, I just feel like I need that time to read and pray and think.
So I have that first, and then I usually- Oh no, I have coffee first.
Mark: Right.
Ginny: Coffee comes before even Jesus.
Mark: It comes even before Jesus.
Ginny: Yeah. I think maybe since...
Mark: He's probably having a cup with you.
Ginny: Yeah.
Mark: Tell me about the book. Now, you've already written how many books?
Ginny: Well, just one with this guy over here.
Andrew: She's written a lot of them.
Mark: You've written one book with Andrew, and then what's this one?
Andrew: And we survived.
Ginny: We did survive. We're still friends.
Mark: He's so good at it.
Ginny: He's really good at it.
Mark: Well, it's just this incessant regurgitation of unnecessary verbiage. It just flows.
Ginny: Yes, I like that. I don't if that's true, but I like the way it felt.
Mark: I told that to Chonda Pierce, one time when she was on my bus early on. I said, "This incessant regurgitation of unnecessary verbiage is killing me." And she put that in her book.
Ginny: Oh my gosh.
Mark: Okay, so...
Ginny: That's amazing.
Mark: Tell me about the book.
Ginny: So it's a lot of personal testimony. Every chapter is sort of testimony and study. So every chapter is sort of an example of something I've learned about singing in life's difficult situations or singing in the dark as it were. And then there's a story of someone from the Bible who, you know, I'm calling songs, you know, something maybe that they declared to God.
Andrew: Okay
Ginny: So the first one is about Leah and how, you know, she had such a longing like to be loved by her husband, but she also found herself in unchangeable circumstances. Like, you know, her day after day, year after year, her husband did not love her. And so in a sense, I can relate in like, you know, I day after day cannot see, and that is not changing.
So then just kind of talking about what Leah finally learned and how she finally learned to have peace with God. And then kind of talking about some of the things that I've learned from Leah.
Mark: This book could open up a whole new area for you, but you are so...
Andrew: He didn't know you taught.
Mark: Of course, I knew you taught, but I'm saying you're brilliant the way you articulate. But my question is really for other single women like you, blind, sighted, or whatever. What would you tell them? To get up and live your life and quit waiting on a man?
Andrew: Is that what you would tell them?
Ginny: You know what is so funny? This weekend I've had two different conversations with friends who got married later in life because that's one thing that happens a lot in New York. You definitely get married later, and it's happening all over the country now. But both of them said to me, "I wish I would have enjoyed my time as a single person," because you think you're waiting for the end all and you're not. Like when you get married-
Andrew: It's just another season.
Ginny: It's a different season, and then you miss that time you had alone to do all the different things.
Mark: And that season may never happen.
Ginny: Right.
Andrew: The single season?
Mark: The married season.
Andrew: Right. So why completely bide your time?
You know, I was reading this article of a man who wrote a book about all the contributions the single population, which is a decent size. I mean, it's not like everyone in the world is married, but he was talking about specifically in America, the single population. How, if we did not have some single population-
Ginny: Right.
Andrew: That society would crumble. Because we don't have to be at home around the table with our kids at 7 every night.
Ginny: Right.
Andrew: We might be with some elderly people who need assistance.
Mark: Right.
Andrew: Or we might be dreaming of new innovative ideas that take a lot more time than a family...
Mark: Like somebody's got to run the hospital.
Andrew: Right.
Ginny: Right.
Andrew: And so the interviewer said, "Now are you single?" He was in his maybe early fifties. He said, "I'm not anymore, but I was. I've been married for about five years, but I was for a very long time." And he said, "And I quite miss it."
Mark: Do you think it would be hard now for either one of you? And let me just say myself.
Andrew: Yeah, we're all single.
Mark: I'm much older than either one of you, and it ain't never gonna happen. Because I have thoroughly loved being single. I've never had any desire to get married. The thought of it makes me feel like I'm going to break out in sweat.
Ginny: I like that.
Andrew: So that's a little different than other people.
Mark: For me it's like, I evidently have a very good gift of just, I don't miss it. Miss it, I've never had it. I don't long for it.
Ginny: Yeah, you don't long for that, yeah.
Mark: I've surrounded myself with friends, and I think that's what single people need to do.
Ginny: Right.
Mark: Get good, good, good friends you can grow old with.
Have you had that longing?
“Get good, good, good friends you can grow old with.”
Ginny: I definitely have. I feel like in this season in life, I sort of am comfortable and content in the idea that maybe I won't ever get married and that's okay. But I also think I'm more comfortable with myself than ever before. So I also go, well, if I ever get married, that would also be super great. However, there are things that I would need to change. You know, there are things I would need to give up. There are things that would need to be different.
Andrew: Sure, evolve.
Ginny: Right, and so I think I have that realization now. So I know it wouldn't be like exchanging the dark life for just this life of joy.
Andrew: Complete light and joy and love.
The Faithful Project
Mark: Women have been very important in my journey to know Jesus. First of all my mother, who would tuck me into bed at night, tell me God's gonna use me. My grandmothers were so important to me. And then some of the women in our church, like Delores Sims. You've never heard of her, but she would always woo me to Jesus. And did you know that women were the first ones that learned that Jesus had risen from the dead? And then they went back, told the men, the men didn't believe it until they saw him for themselves. But women have been very important in the message of the Gospel and this new project called Faithful, which is a CD and book.
Andrew: So many of our good friends and people that you have read their literature or you've heard their music, people like Amy Grant and Kelly Minter and Jenny Owens, Sandra McCracken, Sally Lloyd Jones, Trillia Newbell, there's so many wonderful authors and artists, and here's the cool part. They all got together to write about the women of the Bible and then write songs about how women are a part of continuing to share the story of the gospel all throughout history into today, but the artists and the authors combined efforts. So artists, musicians, were writing some of the chapters and authors were helping write some of the music, which I think it's just this shared experience to say that the telling and sharing of the Gospel, the story of God, is written in each of our lives to share and tell to others just like you.
When I think about who first shared the real nuts and bolts of the Gospel, it was women. And so this Faithful Project celebrates that, highlights that, and offers an opportunity, not just for women but also for men, to be invited into that conversation as well. To learn more about the book and the music project called Faithful, go to faithfulproject.com.
Andrew: Okay. Well, Kelly, well, thank you for sitting down with us today, and thank you for being a part of… I mean we've never had you on Dinner Conversations.
Kelly: What is that about?
Andrew: I don't know.
Kelly: I am a dinner conversation. I love cooking.
Andrew: I know.
Kelly: And being in the kitchen and all of it. How has this not happened? I don't know.
Andrew: It's so true. And every one of your Bible studies, that's one of the first things I remember is one of my cousins here in town, she loves your studies. And she was like, and look at this like, like black bean sauce or something, you know. She was going through all of that.
Kelly: Got to have the recipes in the study because that's when people like are together, right?
Andrew: Yes, it is true. That's when communion is happening. But what I'm curious about is people who don't necessarily have the space in their life, for whatever reason, maybe to go to seminary or to get some kind formal biblical education. How is it that we as believers, as disciples of Jesus, can incorporate a full bodied understanding of scripture, like kind of in layman's terms, if we're not able to have a concerted season of time where we're in study of scripture on an academic level?
Kelly: Right.
Andrew: How do we do that? How do we involve scripture in our lives?
Kelly: Well, I think the first thing to think about is why do we want to do that? Because I mean, there's a million things that I would like to do, right? I'd like to take a cooking class or I'd like to take Portuguese lessons or, you know, but we're limited with the amount of time that we have in our day.
And so for me, the study of God's Word is, it colors everything, like it's so direct- It's so directing. Like even today, like having to deal with kind of a difficult situation. And like now, my brain, I'm going to be honest, my brain was going a lot of directions, but I'm like-
I was in John, I think it was 13, this morning where Jesus washes the feet of the disciples, and he just becomes a servant. And it's a simple little shift, but this morning it was like, the Lord was like, okay, when you go in there, you're going to serve. Even though I kind of wanted to go into a certain situation, like, okay, here's how it's going to be, you know?
Andrew: Yeah.
Kelly: And so it was this shift because in scripture they're always doing that. It's always changing us. It's moving up against us because it's God's Word. And it's inspired by the Holy Spirit. So it changes everything.
So I think the why is we need it for every single thing that we do. It's applicable for everything. And then yeah, not everybody's going to be in seminary, not everybody's going to get a formal education, but we live in a place where there are endless resources. So whether it's grabbing a Bible study that someone's written that has homework laid out, like, okay, I'm going to study this book of the Bible, or I'm going to study this theme through this Bible study that's going to trace me through scripture or I'm going to join a Bible study, or I'm going to add in an online class, there's so many ways that we can get into the Bible study.
I think the key is doing it. And then maybe even finding some people that are going to do it with you because that always helps, right? When you're..
Andrew: Sure. It's just like exercise, right?
Kelly: Exercising. I was going to go for dieting, yeah. Like who's going to not have sugar with me for the next 30 days or whatever, yeah.
So I think having a framework, and that's the thing too in our culture right now, everybody's pretty isolated, right?
Andrew: Yeah.
Kelly: And so this is an opportunity for us to go together and do this together.
Andrew: You started in town here in Nashville as a songwriter, as an artist, and you have transitioned over the past 14, 15 years to become, you know, your platform really became much wider as you began to write Bible studies, become an author, teach, and speak. Were you ever intimidated? Like expressing yourself in a song, there's a lot more fluidity in that when you're being thoughtful about your theology or whatever then now authoring books about scripture and teaching scripture. Was that intimidating, that kind of higher calling?
Kelly: Yeah, I think, oh yeah. I think so. And that's part of the reason why I am in seminary because I do think that we need to take the Word of God so seriously. And so I have really wanted to make sure that I'm not wading into waters that I shouldn't be wading into, you know, but I think too, you know, when the Lord, he calls you into something different, I mean, honestly singing was intimidating. And yet even though, you know, you had that three-minute song and the lyrics, you know you're not going to stray from the lyrics, right? So once you feel settled on them, there they are. You're not going to make those up unless you forget the words, which I've done many times.
But that I always felt a little like kind of off my game. But I think it was because the Lord was preparing me for something different, but it was a process. And I think I have just continually wanted to learn. And I think that that also is where accountability comes in, where you've got people in your life that are going to look at what you're saying, look at what you're writing, that are with you and you're hashing things out. I mean, I don't really do much without running it by a few people, you know? And hey, how does this sound? Is this right? Do you think that this is okay to say? Should I not say this? So I think the community, the church body, is helpful when it comes to that.
But yeah, yes, it still is to this day. I don't think I ever get up on stage and open scripture and think, oh yeah, I got this.
Andrew: I got this.
Kelly: No, no, no. I think most of the time I'm still walking up going, okay, Lord, I hope that I'm doing this justice. And that I do believe in grace. I'm all about that too.
But I try to be really well prepared and well studied, but yeah, it's intimidating, yes.
Andrew: The desire to learn, I think that's something really important. Mark and I were talking with all of our friend, Patsy Clairmont, yesterday about-
Kelly: I love that.
Andrew: Remaining curious. Of course, we were talking about that as you get older, like never stopping somewhere, stopping the learning process. But I think especially when we come into our spiritual lives, wanting to always be interested, wanting to be curious, like I was telling you before we started that my dad would always ask us even as kids, "What do you think about that?" after we heard a sermon, which gave us the permission to be in relationship with God ourselves.
I mean, it goes back to ancient times, right? This is accessible to us. It's not just a priest or it's not just someone delivering the Word of God to us. The Word of God is available to all of us.
“The Word of God is available to all of us.”
Kelly: Right.
Andrew: So how do you stay- Like when you've got deadlines and when you've got books to finish and when you've got speaking tours to be on, how do you personally stay curious about the Bible but also just in life?
Kelly: Yeah, taking time. So like I was off last week, which is hard, you know. We're all busy. It's all crazy. But I took a week vacation, and it was so nice to just let my mind go wherever it wanted to go. So taking that time, taking small portions of scripture and really thinking about them, like really.
So on vacation, I'm reading through John's gospel, and I'm reading about the blind man, and all the religious leaders are like, "Well, what sin did he commit," you know? And even the disciples are like, what did he do to become blind? Like what sin did he commit? And Jesus is like, "He didn't commit any sin. This has nothing to do with sin." And he says it happens so that the works of God might be displayed in him.
And I've read that a bunch of times, but I was sitting there and I was like, oh my gosh. So like any of my brokenness, any of my struggles, God's work can actually be displayed in me. There was something about the "in him" that just like blew my mind because I had time.
Whereas if I had been racing out the door or something, I would've been like, oh yeah, yeah, but I stopped. Like I got my journal out, and I thought, what a remarkable passage to think about God's work being displayed in Andrew or like being displayed in me.
And so thinking about stuff like that and just having time is the big thing for me because otherwise it starts to get pretty rote and you're like, I got to turn this thing in, I got to, and as soon as it starts feeling like that to me, I'm not saying that the Lord can't use it, because I think he does.
Andrew: Sure, yeah.
Kelly: But I try to stop and go, okay, Lord I'm getting a little- This is getting a little dry and crispy, like I need to- So I think for me...
Andrew: Refreshed.
Kelly: Just yeah, refreshed, and not always having everything be on a deadline, like it's not a school paper or it's not for a project or it's not for a publishing thing. This is like for me to sit with you and to hear the voice of God. That's how I stay curious, and reading other people is huge, you know?
Andrew: Yeah. You're also talking about the difference between being a professional Christian, if you will, and having a personal relationship with God.
Kelly: Yeah. Right, right.
Andrew: Which can be tricky if your deadline is based around a Bible study and you are in the Bible to get the Bible study done, which is not a terrible thing.
Kelly: No.
Andrew: But it is also what you're doing for work. It's also part of your productivity. I think space is absolutely necessary. That's why like the Catholics have it so right in being contemplative, right, and having time reserved for reflection.
Kelly: Yes.
Andrew: Because that's where I think what I hear you saying is where we can actually receive.
Kelly: Yep.
Andrew: And then it's out of the reception, as in like being able to receive is where we're then able to pour out. At least at some point that's got to balance out, right?
Kelly: Absolutely, yes.
Andrew: You know, it's not selfish to be alone or to be quiet or to take a break.
Kelly: Right. No, I mean, we have to have it. And I can tell when I'm in professional Christian mode versus Jesus, Holy Spirit place. And there is a difference. And I think too like the older I get, I realize that there's a lot that I can just kind of like accomplish on my own, but it's really boring. And when the Holy Spirit is in it and you are part of that, you go, okay, that's it, that's what I want. And that I can't just manufacture. That has to be the Lord and me walking in a posture of prayer and humility and all of that. And so I'm seeking more of those moments where you just know that was the Lord. That was not me like just putting a good talk together, good whatever.
Andrew: So there's a project that you were a part of that's called Faithful, and the idea Faithful, it's a collection of a lot of authors, speakers, musicians, some of you are both, who contribute to chapters in a book and all sorts of songs on a musical project, and it's called Faithful. Folks like you, our good friend Ginny Owens, of course.
Kelly: Yeah.
Andrew: And Amy Grant and Sandra McCracken. I mean, the list is really amazing.
Kelly: Yeah, Ellie.
Andrew: Yeah, Ellie Holcomb and Lisa Harper, and all y'all coming together in a room to highlight the role of women in the carriage of the gospel throughout history, right? And so tell me what it was like to be not only in those rooms with those women but really to be a part of a project that is hailing such a beautiful part of God's story.
Kelly: Yeah. Well, it was great because it was very authentic and just beautiful people. You know, Christy Nockels, Sally Lloyd-Jones. I mean, just really amazing, and it was very humbling because you could look to your left or your right or across the room, and everybody was like, somebody was a better player, a better singer, a better writer. But that wasn't the point. The point was that, like you said, all there to celebrate women who had carried the gospel and to collaborate. And that's the beauty. You end up coming up with songs that you wouldn't have come up with by yourself, but they wouldn't have come up with that song without you either.
And oh, Ann Voskamp was part of that project.
Andrew: Yeah, yes.
Kelly: She's just one of my favorites too.
And then I got to write a chapter on the book of Ruth, which has always been a near and dear book of the Bible to me. I've written a study on that, so got to write that chapter, and yeah, it was wonderful.
We got together multiple times, and then we even did like a little concert kind of for ourselves, which was interesting because I think in our world we just always have this idea of like we should have this like taped or more people should have been here or we should have had these people. But there's something about like no, this was so awesome, and it's okay that there was just us and we could celebrate this.
So yeah, it was a really, really fabulous project to be a part of. And I'm really proud of the record and the book.
Andrew: You know, the only real question I have, and I think Mark and I both have this question, is why weren't we invited to be a part of Faithful?
Kelly: You know, these are-
Mark: I'd love to be a fly on the wall.
Andrew: Okay. Take me into that project that you have coming out later this year, and it's about spiritual disciplines. So first, when I think of spiritual disciplines, I think of Richard Foster.
Kelly: You start to get tired. Oh yeah.
Andrew: So spiritual discipline of… Well, I think about that book and then I get tired because I remember reading that book and just trying to get through it. And then I think about just the word discipline can be such a trigger because it means I have to give up something or I have to fight off something or whatever. Why were you compelled to get into kind of that topic and the headiness of that too?
Kelly: Yeah. Yeah. Well, this Bible study ended up being, it was really surprising for me because it's one of those things where you're getting back to the fundamentals of the faith, and you're getting back to practices that people have been practicing for thousands of years. And I was able to trace these practices throughout the scriptures. You have prayer, study, celebration, meditation, like, you know, scripture meditation, generosity, gratitude, service. I mean, so much stuff. And you can, you can start to get overwhelmed and think I can't even like get into my Bible for five minutes, how I'm going to do these, you know, disciplines?
But when you think about anything that you or I have done that has been worth it, it is because we disciplined ourselves at one point. Like you sit down at the piano now, and it is effortless for you, but that is because you disciplined yourself to do something that at one point was not effortless.
Andrew: Sure.
Kelly: You had to train your hands and your mind and everything. And now what was once impossible is now actually quite simple for you. Whereas I cannot sit down to the piano. Because I fought my mom and piano lessons. I can pick up a guitar.
Andrew: You can do a guitar very nicely.
Kelly: But those are things that, as you go, they actually, these disciplines actually create freedom for us, and they empower us. So there are not ways to manipulate God in any way, but they do put us in the best position to be in relationship with the Lord and things that used to be difficult, like maybe praying for 15 minutes or reading the Word for 20 minutes or serving at our church or whatever, they actually start to feel less like disciplines and more like life-giving activities that we really would miss if we're not engaged in them.
And I think, too, like I was thinking about exercise. Like okay, so I have to like kind drive myself to get on the Peloton or whatever. I have to make myself. And I do it for results, right? Like I get on there for results, and I love the Peloton instructor. She's awesome, she's super encouraging, she's all like bright and cool. So much cooler than me.
“Disciplines actually create freedom for us, and they empower us.”
Andrew: Never sweating.
Kelly: Yeah, never sweating, looks amazing, and you're looking at her, so actually starting to think, I like look like that. And then I catch myself up in the mirror. I'm like, oh, this is so depressing, but I don't go to hang out with the instructor. I don't go for her. I go for results, right? That's why I'm there.
But the spiritual disciplines are actually the exact opposite of that. Like we're not really doing them for a result. We're doing them for relationship, and we will see results. But I think we get it turned around when we think, oh, I've got to do all these things, so I can- Like the Lord's going to bless this or he's going to do this or he's going to give me that.
Andrew: The tit for tat.
Kelly: That's like so not what these are about. But I do think that they, worship, all of these, they're relationship based. Relationship with the church body, relationship with Christ, depending on if you're looking at an inward discipline or an outward discipline. But then results come, but if we're results motivated, it's going to be short-lived, and it's going to feel really legalistic I think too.
Andrew: Then aren't the results more satisfying anyway, because it goes back to what we were talking about, spirit life, that we are a participant in it. We do put effort into it, but the result of the effort is something kind of beyond our own comprehension.
Kelly: Yes.
Andrew: You know, it's a bit more serious. So I love the ability to have conversations with you always, Kelly, and I certainly love your teaching. I love your ability to extract from scripture things that are palpable, things that are understandable. And of course, that is helpful for the church at large. And so I'm grateful that you're willing to participate that way. And I think, also, for our little Dinner Conversations audience, our conversation today will be enlightening and helpful and maybe even empowering.
Kelly: Awesome, I love it.
Andrew: Thank you.
Kelly: Thanks, Andrew.
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Andrew: Oh.
Mark: Oh yeah.
Andrew: Here's the food.
Mark: Hold that thought.
Ginny: That's right.
Andrew: So yeah, Hebrew, what you got? What phrase?
Ginny: I'm trying to think of a good phrase.
Andrew: You got like a little song or a phrase, or like God? What's God in Hebrew?
Mark: Thank you, Lord, for this food. In Jesus' name, amen.
Ginny: Amen. Yes.
Andrew: What's amen?
Ginny: I mean, there's words that we know like Eloah is like the word for God and...
Mark: El Shaddai.
Ginny: And like Elohim.
Andrew: Amy taught us that.
Ginny: Yes, is like a version...
Mark: Did you know that I've taken Hebrew?
Andrew: You did?
Ginny: Well, and so what's super interesting is Yahweh, which was, you know, the name that God, the I am name that God gave to himself.
Mark: Right.
Ginny: When he talked to Moses. The Jews revere that name so much that they don't speak it, so they always say Adonai instead.
Mark: Interesting.
Andrew: Adonai, interesting instead of Yahweh.
Ginny: And even though, which is sort of another word for God. But so when we read Hebrew, if we come across Yahweh, we can't say it. We have to say a Adonai.
Andrew: Really? That's interesting.
Okay, so tell me this so we can get to eating, not because I don't like talking about you. Because I want you to eat your food.
Ginny: No, I'm fine.
Andrew: I have heard you say many times and that almost maybe in a way of wishing you could express this to others maybe, but that blindness is a challenge, yes.
Ginny: Sure.
Andrew: But it is not your greatest challenge.
Ginny: No.
Andrew: Is that true?
Ginny: It is true. It is so true. I feel like, you know, so I lost my eyesight when I was 3-years-old.
Mark: Oh, I didn't know that.
Ginny: Well, it was hereditary, and I had a little bit of vision, and I had a surgery that was actually supposed to improve the vision that I had. And we kind of think maybe the doctor wasn't so great, but the surgery he did ended up just taking away all my vision.
Mark: What you had.
Ginny: Yeah.
Andrew: When you were 3-years-old, is that right?
Ginny: When I was three. Yeah. So I was sort of in the middle of learning colors. Apparently my favorite one was purple, but I don't really remember. And honestly, my parents were great about just saying, you know, live your life. So I mean, I rode bikes and roller skated and climbed trees and, you know, did all the things that I'd never get to do.
Andrew: Don't you wish we could get that on camera?
Ginny: I know.
Andrew: She'd be riding a bike.
Mark: Wow, you rode bikes.
Ginny: Oh yeah, for sure. I think I was already learning to ride.
Mark: Okay.
Ginny: And so, but, but yeah, I mean, it was all, you know, and they're lots of blind folks that do crazier stuff than that every day.
Andrew: It's true, yeah.
Ginny: But I feel like, you know, one of the things that is always the initial barrier-
Mark: Here's your fork. Lean in and eat one.
Ginny: All right.
Mark: You like ketchup on it?
Ginny: No, I'm so good. Thank you.
Mark: Oh, you are?
Ginny: I'm so good.
But one of the things that's always so challenging when you first meet people is they'll maybe say things, if they're really kind, they'll say things like, "Well, if you need any help, let me know." And sometimes it's like, you know, no, why don't we just be friends?
Andrew: Yeah.
Ginny: That's what I need more because people don't realize that, you know, I don't think about being blind like all the time. Like other people do, but not me.
Andrew: This is your norm.
Ginny: This is my norm. So I'm thinking about what I'm struggling with today or like the good thing that just happened or hanging out with these two hot guys and eating eggs.
Andrew: Yeah. Do you hear that Mark?
Mark: I believe her eyesight was just healed.
Ginny: Yep.
Andrew: Exactly.
So do you think at this point in your life, you could say what is my greatest challenge?
Ginny: What is my greatest challenge? Right now, it's trying to get through school, trying to write a book on a really short deadline. There's a lot of great challenge.
You know, I think my greatest challenge is resting. Like learning to rest like, you know, learning to rest in the knowledge that God is in charge, that I don't have to earn his love. I don't have to earn anyone's love. Even just whatever's going on, I have come to a very simple view of how God sees me and just to know that I'm loved and to know that I don't have to prove anything to anyone. Like that I can spend my life giving or encouraging people but not trying to be, I don't know. I don't have to be a New York person.
Andrew: Sure
Ginny: You know, I don't have to sort of over achieve in every way, but just to sort of rest, I think, in the knowledge that I am complete and always growing, but because of who God is and because he's in me, I'm complete as I am.
So I think that's kind of my just learning to really- Because I believe that on some level, but learning to really believe it-
“Because of who God is and because he’s in me, I’m complete as I am.”
Mark: Learning to what?
Ginny: Learning to really believe it and learning to really rest.
Andrew: And then rest in it.
Mark: I wish to goodness I had trouble resting.
Ginny: Yeah.
Mark: I can lay down with the best of 'em.
Ginny: Oh, that's a gift.
Mark: Oh, I can take a nap. When I turned 60, I start taking naps, and I take one every day.
Ginny: Naps are so good.
Mark: They are so good.
Ginny: I'm so glad you do that. Can you take some naps for me? I would really like it if someone would do that.
Mark: You don't ever get a nap?
Ginny: I do sometimes, I do sometimes. Especially when I get up early and write and study, then sometimes at like 2 o'clock I'm like, all right, I need 20 minutes.
Mark: Yeah.
Ginny: And so that's a new thing though, but.
Andrew: Well, I think you're pretty darn complete.
Ginny: Well, thanks, friend.
Andrew: I've always thought that.
Mark: I think you're amazing actually.
Ginny: You're so sweet.
Mark: I love how you love Jesus.
Ginny: Aw.
Mark: I do love that most about you because it just, when you talk about him, your face glows.
Ginny: Yeah. He's a pretty cool dude.
Mark: Isn't he?
Ginny Owens singing “Be Thou My Vision”
Be Thou my vision, O Lord of my heart
Naught be all else to me, save that Thou art
Thou my best thought, by day or by night
Waking or sleeping, Thy presence my light
I will lift up my eyes
To my Help and my Peace
Till my faith becomes sight
Be my Light and my Strength
Riches I heed not, nor man's empty praise
Thou mine inheritance, now and always
Thou and Thou only, first in my heart
High King of heaven, my Treasure Thou art
High King of heaven, my victory won
May I reach heaven's joys, O bright heaven's sun
Heart of my own heart, whatever befalls
Still be my vision, O ruler of all
I will lift up my eyes
To my Help and my Peace
Till my faith becomes sight
Be my Light and my Strength
I will lift up my eyes
To my Help and my Peace
Till my faith becomes sight
Be my Light and my Strength
Mark: Now one thing I loved, the thought that the first face you're ever going to see is Jesus. I mean, that overwhelms me.
Ginny: It overwhelms me too. And you know, it's like Paul says, like we're all kind of a little bit blind right now, right? Like we're all looking through a blurry glass.
Mark: Yes.
Ginny: But there's going to be a day when we get it, like when we all see. So really the very next face we all perfectly see is going to be Jesus'.
Mark: What a day that will be.
Ginny: So cool, I know.
Andrew: Okay, here we go. Ready? Okay. Wait, how does that work?
Ginny: What? How's that work?
Andrew: I take the sticky.
Ginny: You have to put your hands flat.
Mark: Does this have a roller on the bottom?
Ginny: It does have a roller on this one, yeah.
So then you put this finger, your index finger, like straight out.
Andrew: Like that?
Ginny: Yep.
Andrew: Okay.
Ginny: And then you just...
Andrew: Like a golf club kind of?
Ginny: Yeah, kind of. Yep.
Andrew: Okay. So how do you, and you just hang on to me.
Ginny: And then you do your left side with your right foot.
Andrew: Wait, I'm going to close my eyes.
Ginny: Left side, right foot. But you got to put it in front of you. Left side, right foot. There you go.
Andrew: So this makes sure I don't hit like-
Ginny: Something or...
Cameraman: Like me.
Ginny: All right. Y'all close your eyes, and I'm going to lead you back to my house. You ready? All right. Here we go. All right, hold on. Yep. Hold on tight. Here we go. We got to get across the street.
Mark: Oh my.
Ginny: Yep.
Mark: I had to peek a little.
Ginny: Okay. Oh, all right. Almost to the curb, careful.
Mark: Watch the curb.
Andrew: Did you say you had to pee a little?
Ginny: No, peek.
Mark: Oh my gosh.
Ginny: Peek a little.
Andrew: Are we still going?
Mark: You need a hearing aid.
Andrew: I got my eyes closed.
Ginny: Well, open them.
Mark: Thank you for watching Dinner Conversations. Don't forget to subscribe, and then ring that bell and get all notifications.
Andrew: And don't forget to like us or dislike us. Don't do that. Leave comments, talk about what's resonating in your life from these conversations, and join us next time for Dinner Conversations with-
Mark: Mark Lowry.
Andrew: And Andrew Greer.
Mark: Turning the light on.
Andrew: One question at a time.
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