Losing Control featuring Jimmy Fortune and Ben Isaacs
Two of Country and Gospel music's main men – The Statler Brothers' Jimmy Fortune and The Isaacs' Ben Isaacs – share their stories of learning to love the addicts in their families, and what they learned about themselves and what they let go of in the process. Plus, Jimmy and The Isaacs sing for us!
Transcript
Mark: Dinner Conversations is brought to you by Food for the Hungry, an incredible relief and community development organization serving those with physical and spiritual needs around the world for 50 years this year.
Andrew: Help us as we help our friends at Food for the Hungry save thousands of lives in Ethiopia today by considering a generous gift.
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Mark: I've known Ben Isaacs a long time because of the Isaacs. You know, he is the oldest sibling in that group, family group. And--
Andrew: Not older than his mom.
Mark: No, of course, but his mom is still part of the group too. I mean, the founding member, and oh my goodness, what harmonies they've got, but come to find out, Ben is a control freak.
Andrew: Who would have thought?
Mark: Who would have thought? But you know, you almost have to be when you're the head of a family group. Bill Gaither, control freak.
Andrew: They're directors.
Mark: He even tells you where to sit. So all the greatest I think leaders… Yeah, you're a control freak.
Andrew: I'm like that too.
Mark: But I like that. As long as they're leading it the way I would do it, if I had to do it.
Andrew: So, doesn't that make you a control freak?
Mark: Well...
Andrew: It doesn't matter. We all have our preferences. Ben is a wonderful human being. And he is talking about his family member struggles with addiction and him walking on that journey alongside that family member of course.
Mark: What it's like when you don't have the addiction but it affects you as much as if you did.
Andrew: Sure, and you don't have control over it.
Mark: Right.
Andrew: The same thing is happening with our friend Jimmy Fortune, who is a part of this. I got to sit down with Jimmy here in Nashville and talk about his very incredible life. Of course, tons of musical experience, the Statler Brothers and now as Jimmy Fortune, but his experience with his father who was an alcoholic. Both of these lives though have turned around, and as a result, Jimmy's life and Ben's life, they have experienced growth and change and transformation for sticking it out, walking through with their families as they walk through the road of addiction to recovery.
Mark: And it's a good show. And we've got one seat left at the table, and it's yours. So let's join the conversation.
Andrew: Jimmy, so I'm thrilled. Here's what I'm most thrilled about. It's a little bit of a selfish reason is that, you know, Mark and I do some interviews together. We conquer and divide. He lives in Houston, I live here. So when we got the opportunity to talk to you, of course, you're good friends with our executive producer, Celeste Winstead, who's our good friend.
Jimmy: Everybody loves Celeste. I mean, what can you say?
Andrew: I have a feeling that's why you're here, for Celeste. You know, like Andrew who, Mark bozo, no. You know, that kind of thing.
But I'm excited because when we divide and conquer, I get someone's full attention. You've been around Mark Lowry.
Jimmy: It's hard to get full attention around Mark. I mean, the boy is wide open, but I will say this, he's not only one of the funniest guys in the world, but he's one of the greatest singers I've ever heard. I mean, when they… I mean, literally.
Andrew: He downplays it completely.
Jimmy: He downplays it. And I mean, he will literally make you just stand there and with your mouth open and go, "My gosh, what did I just hear?" He's that good, I know.
Andrew: He is. I agree. I mean, I don't want to talk too much about Mark. He is awesome.
You're a good singer too. And I, you know, as I was commenting because listening to you just here in this house and when your voice is completely filling up the space. And I've heard you on record for years, of course not only in your solo stuff over the past, what you were saying, 18 years now since the Statler Brothers retired, but the 20 years of catalog before that with them and, but never heard you live. Where did music begin? Like where do you first remember resonating with music somewhere inside that was like, this is a special, this different?
Jimmy: Well, of course my family sang. I'm number seven of nine children. And daddy went broke making Fortunes. He really did. So, put that in your pipe and smoke it.
Andrew: Okay, okay.
Jimmy: But anyway, my family sang in churches and everything, and I was 6-years-old when I realized that not everybody could sing. I was standing next to my mom in church, and this man came in, the pew right behind me, and whatever came out of his mouth flipped me totally around in the pew. I'm standing next to my mom and I'm looking at this man. I said, "And mama," I said, "Mama, something is really wrong with this guy. What is wrong?"
Andrew: He's sick.
Jimmy: Yeah, he's sick. And so she said, that's when I realized, she said, "You know, don't look at that man. You going to hurt his feelings." She said, "You know, I'll tell you later about why."
Andrew: She had some great revelation to you.
Jimmy: So on the way home she says, "Jimmy, you know, it's okay when, if you come to church, not everybody can sing. God has given you a gift. It's a gift. And not everybody has that gift." And so this man comes to church. She said, "He's making a joyful noise, son, to the Lord." I mean, you know, but...
Andrew: That's all you got.
Jimmy: I said, "Mama, you're right. It's a noise, but there ain't nothing joyful about it."
Andrew: I don't want to hear that man again.
Jimmy: For some reason, I said, I told mama, I said, "Ma…” I understood what she was trying to say, but I said, "You know what, I bet when everybody gets to heaven, when you get to heaven, everybody can sing." And she said, "Well, that's nice, son. Why do you think that?" I said, "Because I'm pretty sure God ain't putting up with that." But that's when I realized--
Andrew: You thought you had a little in with God too, didn't you?
Jimmy: Yeah. So anyway, I started singing with my family, of course. And then I got a guitar, I found a guitar. When I talk about my family being poor, poor, poor, we were really poor. And back in Virginia, central Virginia. And I found an old guitar, a piece of junk guitar with two strings on, in a dump near our house. I was eight. I took it back home, and I played on those two strings for about four years. I was just doing stuff. And mom and dad finally said, "Hey, we're going to try to buy you a guitar this Christmas." Christmas, 1967. And they said, "Don't know if we can or not, but we're gonna try." So they bought me.... They… Christmas that year I'm--
Andrew: Cause you were already fooling around with that little two string.
Jimmy: Yeah, I was already fooling with that and picking out melodies and stuff. And so Christmas night, Christmas Eve, mom and dad came up to me and said, "Hey, we thought we were going to be able to get this guitar for you, but we really couldn't afford it this year, Jimmy, you know?"
And so I was so devastated, disappointed, but then I went to bed and I was thinking, woke up a little. I really couldn't go to sleep. I was so excited. And I was like, well, maybe they're just trying to fool me. You know? So I had this hope, you know, but yet I didn't, you know?
Andrew: Holdin' out hope.
Jimmy: That Christmas morning I get up and I go to the, get ready to go in the living room. I open the door, and I see this beautiful Harmony guitar on the couch next to the Christmas tree. And I ran over and I grabbed the guitar and I just held onto it. I remember just holding it. I said, "This is a real guitar with six strings on it?" I was so excited. And I said, "Daddy, if I can learn to play and sing at the same time, I'm going to make a living at this. This is what I want to do."
And daddy is like, "Son, are you crazy?" He said, "You can't make a living playing music. Why do you think they call it playing?" That's what he told me. And to him, it was a hobby. It wasn't anything anybody was ever going to do. And to me, it was everything. I knew it in my heart. You know, I said, this is, really this is what I want to do.
And I started learning songs and I started playing. I had a band by the time I was 13 and we were playing. Our first gig was in Lovingston Elementary School in Nelson County, Virginia for a PTA meeting. Four of us made a dollar a piece. And we thought--
Andrew: You probably thought–
Jimmy: I told my dad, I said, "Son, we're on our way. We are on our way."
Andrew: We aren't playing anymore.
Jimmy: We made a dollar that night. We walked there. It's about three miles from my house. And we walked right out to a little restaurant there on the side of the road and blew it all on a milkshake. And I think one of the happiest days of my life where I had my guitar strongly on my back and we were walking down the road back to the house thinking, man, wasn't that great? We did something we love to do and made money at it.
Andrew: I mean, did you feel some responsibility? And I mean, for the record here too--
Jimmy: I gotta take a bite.
Andrew: You have to eat because we are having the worst Dinner Conversation meal. Actually, it's the best. Eat your heart out, Mark. Because he would love this food.
Jimmy: There you go, Mark.
Andrew: We've had all, you know, we usually have farm to table food, and it's very, it's good for you, keeps you in shape, and that kind of thing, but we heard you don't like anything green. So this meal is specifically for you.
Jimmy: Well, except for money.
Andrew: Yeah.
So when your mom first explained to you like about that guy next to you, singing that couldn't, you know, carry a tune. And she explained it as a gift, as something that you had been given.
Jimmy: Right.
Andrew: That could of course be excelled at, crafted, shaped, whatever. Did you feel, even at that age, a certain responsibility with that or more just a freedom from that?
Jimmy: I always felt… I always felt this presence around me, even at a young age. Even when I used to play, when I was alone playing. Whether it was out in the woods swinging on a grapevine, down near a river by myself, I always felt this presence around me. And I always felt like it was, mom always instilled in me that, you know, that God was gonna take care of me, that he was everything that, you know, I could pray. I could talk to God, you know, anytime I wanted to. She was just this prayer warrior and just, I just felt her prayers being answered all the time. I still feel it today even though she's been gone. But I felt...
As time went on, she wanted me to be a preacher. She kind of wanted me to go into the ministry. And I think my dad kind of would rather me have done that too. But of course, I got into playing music and I got out playing clubs and things like that. And I was in the rock and roll and I was into all kinds of genres of music and they didn't like that. They always wanted me to… But I came back to that. I came back to what my roots were because I went through so many changes in my life. And some of those dead end roads wound up as dead end roads that I followed. And I always felt mama's prayers bringing me back, you know, to what really meant the most, what God wanted me to do.
And it's led me to where I'm at right today because back even to when the Statler Brothers retired, I talked to God a lot about, "Hey, what do you want me to do?" And he pretty much said, "I want you to do what I want you to do." I want you to… My purpose in music is to put forth a feeling of hope and of inspiration, of forgiveness, because we go through life and we make so many mistakes, which I did. But the fact is that if God can help me and do it for me, he can do it for anybody. I saw him, my dad, healed of alcoholism through my mom's prayers. So these are all the things that brought me to where I'm at today. So I've always known that God had a purpose for me, but it took me a while to really find that purpose, the real purpose.
“I’ve always known that God had a purpose for me, but it took me a while to really find that purpose.”
Andrew: Do you think some of that… I know you've talked about your dad having some of those demons through that disease of alcoholism and in your childhood years and do you feel like… Sometimes, I mean, I think especially as men, we look to our fathers as examples and the messages we long to receive, the messages we do receive, all of that combines and creates some of how we feel about ourselves in the future, how we interact with the world around us, the relationships we have, our children, our marriages, whatever, even professionally. Do you feel like some of your relationship with your father is what maybe, did that influence kind of that longer road back home a little bit? Was there some insecurities there?
Jimmy: Yeah. I was like my daddy's shadow when I was little. He played square dances and things like that. He'd go out on Saturday night and--
Andrew: So he's a musician.
Jimmy: He was a musician. He played mandolin and the old square dances and things. And of course, mama would make us get up on Sunday morning and go to church and repent after being out on, you know? I was just a kid and he would give me an old guitar just to pluck on and I'd sit back and I'd just play on it until my fingers would bleed. And I'd be up with him until all hours of the night. Sometimes I had to even drive him home as a kid because he'd be so intoxicated. And he'd say, "Well, if you don't tell your mom I've been drinking, I won't, I'll let you drive." And I was like, well, yeah, man.
The first thing I did, walk through the door and my mama said, "Your dad's been drinking, ain't he?" "Yup."
Andrew: You never held up your end of the deal.
Jimmy: But those were the beginnings of all of that. And then as time went on, the drinking got so bad that, you know, my dad eventually, you know, it was just staying away from home. He got to running around on mom and things like that. And it all came to a head one night. And I remember it got so bad that, I loved my daddy with all my heart, but I got to where I didn't care if he came home or not.
Andrew: Because of how it changed the environment?
Jimmy: Yeah. And so it was one night in 1967, it was in spring of 1967. My mom and dad got in a big fight and it was really bad. And so my dad, we didn't know what he was going to do. He went out of the house. We thought he was going to maybe take a gun and kill himself. He'd gotten to that point. You know, we knew he had a gun in the car and stuff like that.
And I remember going out after this big fight, and I hid behind a maple tree in the yard. And I was sitting there waiting for this gunshot to go off cause I thought, man, this is it. This is probably, he's going to end it all because, and I didn't hear the shot. And I remember I started peeking around the tree and I saw my dad come up to the front porch and my mom was on, standing on the front porch. And he said, her name was Bird. He called her Bird. It was a nickname. He said, "Bird, you know, I think I've just about lost everything." He said, "You've prayed for me." And he said, "I've tried everything to quit." He said, "I'm going to give God a try." He said, "Jerry Falwell is coming to preach at Oak Hill Baptist Church tomorrow at revival.
Andrew: At your church.
Jimmy: Our church. And he said, "Let's take all the family and we'll go." We all went. And my dad that night ran up this aisle and fell at the aisle with his tears and just a broken man. I mean, he was broken. And he said he wanted to give his life to the Lord. And he wanted, he loved his family. He didn't want to lose his family. And from that moment on, he became my hero. I mean, the real, the alcohol was gone. He let it go.
I remember those men coming to the house saying, "Come on, man, you got to go with us." And he, "No, I'm not. I'm staying here." He'd stand there and tell them. He said, "I love my family and y'all go on and have fun." They would just laugh at him. "That's not going to last long. We'll come back next week." Well, next week came around and he didn't go.
Andrew: You saw him make a choice.
Jimmy: I saw him make… And when I saw my dad, that was probably the biggest turning point of my life. I was 12. And I saw that happen with my dad and I knew that I had hang ups too. I had things in my life that only God could help me get over. And so when I saw my dad do that, what am I going to do when things come to that road for me? I'm going to choose God.
My mom would say, "Jimmy, don't run from God, run to God. No matter what you do, you don't run from him, run to him." And I found that there's so much comfort in that, the forgiveness of God. And saw the forgiveness through my mom for my dad, for things that she just totally said. You know, when he gave his life to the Lord, I don't care about all that stuff. And he just, he became my hero.
I saw him save people's lives. I saw him just do so many things that the real person could come out. The real person that he was, that alcohol and everything was hiding. And that's what God can do for anybody. He can do it for my daddy. I saw him going on…
We had an outdoor toilet. I mean, I know this sounds funny. She would throw his liquor away in the toilet and he'd go get it out. That's how bad he had it. I mean, that's bad.
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Mark: Dinner Conversations is brought to you by Food for the Hungry, an incredible relief and community development organization serving those with physical and spiritual needs around the world for over 50 years now.
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Visit Dinner-Conversations.com for DVDs, CDs, and more!
Mark: Did you know that at dinner-conversations.com, we have a store. We have been around long enough to produce products.
Andrew: That you want.
Mark: You want this. A Dinner Conversations mug to hold your eight ounces of coffee in the morning, or less. And then one if you wanna look at us. See how intellectual I look with my glasses.
Andrew: You look like you're judging me.
Mark: Well, I am. It gives me that intellectual look.
Andrew: We also have DVDs full of all of our episodes and a bunch of bonus content you can't find anywhere else. We've got this Season One DVD with all kinds of guests, like Sandi Patty and Chonda Pierce and Point of Grace. And we've got this Season Two DVD set. I mean, these are tons of disks, Kathie Lee Gifford, Montell Jordan, Scott Hamilton, Amy Grant. And you know what else we have? We have the Songs from the Set CD where we sing a little bit together, but also, you'll hear a lot of songs from people like Russ Taff and The Isaacs, some of our very favorites. You can find all of that at dinner-conversations.com.
Mark: Well, we have one-third of the Isaac sensation, actually one-fourth because your mom is still adding that fourth part. And I love watching her up there, but I just was with you at Family Fest. We had a great time. But you are the producer, the brains.
I tell everybody Sonya… I tell everybody Sonya is the show, Becky is the heart, and you are the blend. I've told everybody. I told Bill that.
Ben: Yeah. You know, Bill told me you told him that.
Mark: No, but that's what Bill Gaither says about y'all. And that's the truth. That high, showy voice of Sonya, which is one of the greatest, but that blend that you do when you, oh, I love a good blend, you know?
Ben: Well, thank you.
Andrew: It's part of I think what made you such a huge part of the Brotherly Love project. You know, we were just talking with Jimmy Fortune--
Ben: Oh, I love him so much.
Andrew: I mean, you two… I mean, I just had a friend who was with you guys, they were visiting in town, but they came back and they said, "We were with the best musicians tonight." And I was, they showed pictures of you and Jimmy, and I was like, "Of course you were." They didn't even know who they were with, greatness--
Mark: Have y'all done shows together?
Ben: We've done a few live things. We did, it was actually a made for TV quartet. It's Jimmy Fortune, Bradley Walker, Mike Rogers and myself. And you know, it's just, we're a bunch of characters. We all have our own separate identity thing that we do, but when the four of us, when we sing together, talk about a blend. It's just… It's hard to sing bad because the blend, Jimmy is so hard and so straight tone that no matter what, you're going to drift into his big, old, beautiful wide tone. So it is… It's been fun. It's been a blast.
Andrew: Well, and call it Brotherly Love too, which I think, you know, you think about a timely just kind of theme and message too. And this… I mean, y'all filmed it right before the shutdown of the world.
Ben: February.
Andrew: Yeah, right before we kind of had our topsy-turvy 2020.
Mark: Are you the producer of that group?
Ben: Yeah.
Mark: So are you the producer of the Isaacs? So are you a control freak?
Ben: Am I? Are you?
Mark: Absolutely.
Ben: I am very, very, very, very strong type A.
Mark: I don't know how strong I am, but to me, all the great leaders, Bill Gaither, you know this, when you go to eat with him, he'll tell you where to sit. Does he not? And that's not exaggeration.
Andrew: He's a director there.
Mark: Oh yeah. He'll say, "Mark, sit over here. You sit there and there." He's controlling the room. You do it?
Ben: I don't tell people where to sit. I do. You know, I have spent my life traveling with my mom and my sisters. I'm the oldest child. I'm also the only boy. And from the time I was 14-years-old, I was driving the bus.
Mark: Wow.
Ben: Setting up PA system. You know, when I was 16-years-old, I was doing almost all the bus driving. I'd drive all… You know, at that time, we were regional Southern Ohio. I would drive four or five hours a night, sleep till noon. You know, do the same thing until we got back home. I mean, I missed a lot of Fridays in school.
Mark: But on the harmonies, on the production and the… Everybody leans on you, right?
Ben: They do. They do.
You know, my sisters are very, very strong opinionated. You know, we… Typically for Isaacs, we usually fight it out like--
Andrew: Like siblings?
Ben: Yeah, for sure. There'll be suggestions. You know, we all have an opinion. And, you know, we had to go to counseling, Mark, to find out that we all have the same goal in mind. We all have just different ways of getting there.
Mark: Oh, what a great thought.
Ben: So that has been...
Mark: And what is that goal? What is that main goal for y'all?
Ben: I mean… You know, to, I feel like it's to make the best music possible. Obviously, you know, we sing Christian music. We're never going to get wealthy. We're never going to get rich doing it. So how do we change people's lives in what we do? You know, how do we offer what we've been through, talking about control issues, what we've been through to make someone else know that somebody else has been there?
You know, if you look through the Isaacs of the last 10 years, we've been very vocal about our problems. You know, whether it be Becky's illness, Sonya losing a baby, mom's cancer, mom's health with her back, you know, my family member's addiction issues. And I mean, it's just, you've got to share.
You know, I love hearing a pastor preach, a preacher preach, when I know what they've been through because grace means more to me from them than it does somebody who's never done anything wrong, in my opinion.
Andrew: You know, I'm curious about when, you've talked before about one of your family member's, you know, intense struggle with addiction. As a control freak, or as someone who likes things to work out in a certain order, how has walking alongside with that family member, on their journey to sobriety, how has that impacted you, influenced you?
Ben: Oh boy. It taught me my biggest lesson in life. You know, I'll just be honest, you know? I mean, that's the way I am. I'm 49-years-old. And up until my family started dealing with addiction, stuff that was out of my control, I never went through anything personally that I needed God for. I know he saved me. I had no problem. And I know that I love God and I know that God loves me. I have no problem with trusting God with my past or my future heaven, but I had issues with Ben being in control right now.
Until someone that you love with all of your heart doesn't care enough about themselves or what they're going through that it just, you go, "Okay, God, if I could just fight this battle for them, I know I'm strong enough to do it." So that's when, my first time in my life I had to really go, "Okay, God, I trust you now because I need you right now." You know, it wasn't about me getting saved or making it to heaven. I wasn't worried about that.
Mark: Getting through the day.
Ben: It's getting through the day.
Andrew: Yeah. I've heard you talk about too, how walking that journey alongside them, that that taught you who Jesus really is. What do you mean by that? How so?
Ben: Well, you know, I've, you know, we've… Again, we've sang Christian songs about peace and love and "Through It All" and all these songs and it just goes right back to me saying, I never went through anything that I just I didn't have control over. And when I say that it took me really just learning to pray, "Okay God, I give it to you and I trust you with it," and letting go. God will meet you at any obstacle you have. But when he meets you, you gotta learn to let go of it.
My pastor always said, you know, in the battle with Christ, when it's you and God, there's only one sword. If you have it, he can't.
Mark: That's brilliant.
Ben: So, you know, I mean, it's just like when, if you learn to give your weapon away and let him fight the battles, you'll have more peace.
Andrew: How did you experience that? Like how, do you remember--
Mark: Let him be daddy and you be the kid.
Ben: That's it.
Mark: Don't you think that's it?
Ben: For sure. For sure.
Mark: Yeah. "Daddy, you take this," and then you can go play in the house. Your dad has got it covered.
Ben: Yeah. That's hard for somebody like me though.
Andrew: Yeah. And it doesn't always feel that way, does it? It doesn't always feel like I can just relax. And I mean, what does that look like practically? What did that look like practically for you? Do you remember? Was there one thing they were like, this is what letting go means, you know?
Ben: Oh yeah. Having to leave again to go on the bus when they're struggling. When the last thing that I wanted to do was be standing on stage singing about how good God is when I'm dying inside. Because of, you know...
I mean, again, it goes back to control issues because I thought if I was there, I could control it. But it doesn't matter. I learned that, you know, you can't make them start and you can't make them stop. It's got it… Once they have their desire to want to be whole, then it's their battle. And you can walk beside them at that point. When somebody changes their mind and says--
Mark: Let me ask you this. What would you tell Ben Isaacs at the beginning of that journey? What would you tell him that you know now that you wish you had known at the very beginning of this journey?
Ben: I would have, I would say, "Ben, you really need to learn to give it to God because he'll handle it way better than you will." Emotions just...
You know, I mean, there's a heart of it that, there's a part of it, I should say, that's not easy. Because I had to make some decisions in learning to give it to God, to learn to isolate myself from the problem. And sometimes that meant the person. That's not easy when someone you love and you've been with, or whatever it is, that you care so much that because you're with them, it feels like that you've got, okay…
My counselor, again, I thank God for good Christian counselor, said, "Ben, you gotta learn your boundaries. And you've got to stick with them." Sometimes it's hard. And it is. It is hard. But I would say to myself, "Ben, you should trust God more because he does really have it."
Mark: Are you through it or are you still in the middle of it?
Ben: No. Well, I mean, July the 28th of this year will be five years of sobriety.
Mark: Praise the Lord.
Ben: So it's been the most incredible journey of growth that I've been a part of. The trust. All the things that go, you know, I mean… And I mean, they were telling me, you know, the whole time, "Do you think I choose to be this way?" I was like, "Well, no." I really don't feel like you choose to be that way, but I feel like once you've had a dry spell, you do choose your next vice, whatever that is.
Andrew: Like the next first drink or the next whatever.
Ben: And it's just one triggers months of issues until they decide, oh my gosh, I can't do this again. And then I'm just sitting on the side going, you know, it's so hard.
Andrew: Well, it is the choice between whatever it is that we're addicted to and the people that we love. There is a very definitive choice, or the life that we want to live.
If you could boil it down, and I don't know if you can, to one thing that you've talked so much about how you've changed. I think that's a really cool perspective because a lot of people, you're not telling someone else's story and that you're telling your story through this. What is one thing that you feel like has changed about Ben? How is Ben different from then, from before?
Ben: I used to think, growing up, I grew up in a really strict, strict Pentecostal family. You know, we didn't even have a TV till I was 14-years-old. That's why we're all musicians. I used to think that when there was a troubled family member, there was trouble in the family. It's not true. You know, we all have free will, we all can make those choices.
I have learned to be, my heart goes out to people that are battling addiction and the family members that go around it. There is… You know, again, like my family member said, they don't choose it. Sometimes it's a result of something that they've been through. My grandfather died an alcoholic because of what he went through with World War II. That's just the only way he knew to cope.
The whole world of addiction, you know, we all have something that we kind of hide. I think… I feel like the people that have the AA communities and the, what's the Christian version? My mind is completely, I just got off the bus--
Andrew: Like Celebrate Recovery.
Ben: Celebrate Recovery. Yeah, forgive me. You know, the reality is, when they go to those places, everybody knows what their issue is, so they don't have to hide it anymore. So they automatically have this freedom that says, you know, "I am this person. I was this person. Because of you guys in this community, we have strength with each other to get out of it."
You know, I tell my family member all the time, I said, "You have the coolest friends because you guys know each other. You guys can call each other out on stuff that..." And I've just learned so much about helping and just watching and seeing what a good foundation, watching and trusting the Lord, community does for a relationship.
Mark: That's what church should be.
Ben: Exactly. I wish, I've said this so many times. And as I've watched it over the last five years, just because my family member's celebrated five years sobriety, there was about three years where it was like everywhere. I wish AA, or I wish church was like an AA meeting. I've seen it so much because again, we all go in, we know why we're there. We're all sinners saved by grace.
Andrew: We don't have to hide.
Ben: We don't have to hide behind our mask. It's up to you whether you want to hide behind a lie or not, but it's just like you go into it and you're like, "Okay, this is what happened to me this week. This is what almost caused me to start drinking." You know, it's just so cool. So cool.
Andrew: There's a prayer that I heard this morning that I think is used a lot in Catholic liturgy. It's the prayer of Saint Therese. And it made me think of this conversation we were going to have. And as someone who's a fellow control freak and who someone's been along the road of recovery from addiction,
"Let nothing disturb you, nothing distress you. While all things fade away, God is unchanging. So be patient for with God in your heart, nothing is lacking. God is enough."
And when I think about what you're talking about and elements of surrendering and allowing people to walk their roads and you discovering a new road, there's a lot of truly believing in that surrender that God is enough.
Ben: Amen. It's the truth.
Mark: Well, that's why God's put off so long calling Bill home. Because, you know, when Bill gets there, he's going to say, "We need to move that throne just a little bit. And we you need some chairs and those, angels, angels, here, here. Put Vestal over here." Don't you know?
Ben: "Have you ever had a Gaither DVD? Do you not know what I can do?"
Mark: Yeah, really? Oh my Lord.
Andrew: Thank you, Ben.
Mark: I love you, buddy.
Ben: Love you guys. Thank you.
The Isaacs performing “He Never Failed Me”
I've been walking through the valley so troubled
And I prayed Lord please make a way
Then He reached me just before I stumbled
And He gave me strength to face another day
I raise my hands to heaven
Lord you gently wiped my tears away
There has never been a time when you failed me
Lord I thank you for touching me today
Dear Lord I thank you because you're my consolation
When my friends and my loved ones let me down
You're the only one that I can turn to
And when I need you Lord you're always around
Oh I raise my hands to heaven
Lord you gently wiped my tears away
There has never been a time when you failed me
Lord I thank you for touching me today
There has never been a time when you failed me
Lord I thank you for touching me today
Dear Lord I thank you for touching me today
The Abide Bible Sponsorship Message
Mark: The Bible is the foundation of our theology. We would not know of Jesus if it weren't for the Bible. We wouldn't know about grace. We wouldn't know about how God cares for us. And there is a new Bible out called the Abide Bible. You know how Jesus said, if you abide in me as I abide in my father, and we abide in each other, and it's just a continual feed off each other. And what I like about this Bible is it's asking us to go deeper.
Andrew: Yeah, it's taking an approach to the Bible from being just simply informational to really being invitational. So there's a lot of prompts in this Bible to journal alongside Scriptures. It gives you opportunity to pray certain Scriptures at different seasons of your life, to meditate on the Scripture. There's beautiful artwork in here that's really cool cause it's not just like some kind of Sunday school artwork. They're using like da Vinci and beautiful pieces of classic art to really just get us to imagine, to be able to use all of our senses as we enter into Scripture, so that we really step into the story of Scripture, not just see it as words on a page but as part of a living, breathing active part of our lives. And you know what? I asked my brother one time, who's a pastor, I said, "Why is the Bible so important?" And he said exactly what you said a second ago, because it is the greatest written revelation of who God is. And so it gives us the opportunity to know God but also to be a part of God's story. That's the Abide Bible.
Mark: So go to abidebible.com to get your copy today.
Andrew: I don't think we have to, you know, like I remember going up and some people saying, especially as a teenager in Texas and church, "Well, if I hadn't done that, I wouldn't have the testimony I have now." I don't think that's what you have to do. I don't think you have to set out on a course of destruction to then have a story of redemption, right?
Jimmy: No.
Andrew: But you received what I would call the benefit and the gift of still being in a relationship with your father. You could have also, that could have been the end of your father's life. And that would've been a big question mark.
Jimmy: I hear so many people come up. I tell that story quite a bit. So many people come up and say, with tears in their eyes and say, "That didn't happen with my daddy. He didn't make that decision." And I don't really, sometimes I don't know what to say to them except that I believe in my heart that Christ died for everybody. He died for everybody. He died for the lowest scum of this earth. Whether you want to like it or not, he did.
And so I believe, we don't know what that person faced in the last five seconds of their life. We don't know what kind of decision they made, but God can save someone that just, that believes and accepts him in spite of their faults. He can save that person. I believe that with all my heart.
Andrew: It's not our actions or activity that confirm, well, our relationship with God is not built based on what we do, right?
Jimmy: Right.
Andrew: So no matter how--
Jimmy: No, we can't work our way to heaven.
Andrew: Right. I think our actions can express what we believe, can over time, can express to others, show to others, confirm our relationship with God. But yeah, I don't think you can ever get too destitute to sever a relationship with God.
“I don’t think you can ever get too destitute to sever a relationship with God.”
Jimmy: Yeah, I think so too because it is the outcome of what we do and our choices. We have consequences. And those consequences could have been totally different for us if daddy hadn't made that right decision. But it doesn't matter whether he made that decision 20 years before he passed away or whether he made that decision five seconds before he passed away. If he's going to heaven, he's going to heaven. I mean, he believes and he accepts Christ in his heart. So it's the outcome on this earth that changes things. That people don't understand that...
I try to explain it to people that I know, even my own children, that because we all make bad choices, that we go with sometimes blinders on like when somebody says, "Well, you need..." I did it with my family. My mama tried to tell me something and I just go right on down that path. "Oh mom, you know, this is..." You know what?
Andrew: "I'm good."
Jimmy: Yeah. And, but then I realized as time went on, everything she was saying was going to make a better life for me, you know? Yeah, I made some wrong choices. Even the wrong choices I made, God has somehow made it okay. Like once you ask for forgiveness and you want God to change your life, he comes in and he starts changing things. He doesn't make everything like perfect right off the bat, those consequences that you made, those choices have consequences that will carry on for the rest of your life. But with those, he can change the outcome of those consequences, if you know what I mean.
Andrew: Yeah, you can receive the consequence and not be shaped by it forever.
Jimmy: Right.
Andrew: I mean, that's our doing. I think that's my doing, that's my shame. That's my worry, just speaking to me. If I'm going to let some, a bad decision and its consequences define who I am and what my future looks like, right?
Jimmy: No, you can't do that. I run into so many people today that say, "Well, you know, my momma did this to me. My daddy did this to me." Well, there are a lot of abusive situations, but you don't have to let that define you. A husband or wife abusing you, you don't have to let that define you. Your relationship when you accept Christ as your Savior, that is probably the most valuable thing. Well, I know it is the most valuable thing you can do in life. No matter how much money you have, it doesn't matter how much money you have. If you don't have Christ and to have a purpose in your life, you're the poorest man on earth.
Andrew: Well, you think that relationship with God is, that is the definition or that defines our purpose in life?
Jimmy: Once you accept Christ and then you open yourself up spiritually to say, "Hey, now what's my job? What do you want me to do?" And really mean that cause it ain't about you anymore. The biggest lesson in life I learned is, when I learned it wasn't, life ain't all about me. And if you don't believe he'll change your life, you just ask him. Because if you really believe that he can do it, sit back and watch things happen. There'll be things out of your control that you don't, you just go, what in the world?
You know, after I made that decision in 1993 going through a divorce and my dad is having cancer and--
Andrew: That's all happened right in the same little pocket of time, right?
Jimmy: Yeah. All that happened right in the same. Cause I was kind of at a bottom point in my life just where I'd been blaming everybody else for my problems. You know? And then once I was in a hotel room in Little Rock, Arkansas, lonely, lonely time of my life. It's around May of 1993. Found my way into a hotel room. It's a cloudy, gloomy day just, actually it was in the morning, about 2 in the morning. And they told me my dad had cancer and he was dying. He wasn't going to be living much longer. I had just gotten separated from a marriage and everything and just felt hopeless.
And I remember sitting on the side of the bed in that hotel room just thinking, man, I have never been so alone in my life. And I thought to myself, I said, "You know, if I didn't know there was a God, I would understand how people would take their life that didn't know, that didn't have that hope." But I looked over and I turn, I had turned the light on and it was a Gideon Bible lying on the nightstand. And it was open, of all things. I'm like, what is it? And I just took it that God was trying to tell me something. These things went all, these alarms, you know, this is my Word, this is… And I'm trying, I want to tell you something. And so I literally ran over and I grabbed that Bible.
It was, and I will never forget, it was Jeremiah 5:25. It said, "Your sins and your iniquities have kept good things from you." And I literally sat there with chills on me. And I felt like Jesus was sitting right next to me. I've only had that feeling one other time in my life, where it felt like… I was in a hotel room. there was the most depressing thing you could ever imagine, and all of a sudden, I felt like I was siting in the middle of a vast eternity and there was nothing, there was just something that was holding me up that I couldn't even explain. It was a feeling.
And not saying that everything had gotten better from that point, just perfect. It wasn't. My dad passed away, the divorce. And so many things happened, but I had accepted Christ into my heart and he began to change things and get me ready for whatever it was I was going to be facing down the road for my career, for my family, for everything. He's been getting me ready ever since of that point.
Andrew: Yeah, that's interesting cause you talk about that being such a change, a moment of change, for you personally. And yet I think it's good for people to hear, for me to hear, that yes and the next step wasn't that, okay, I had this experience with Jesus. This very real benchmark experience with Jesus in my life and then dad was healed from cancer and then my marriage survived. No, but your discovery of beauty within the brokenness was that relationship with Jesus. You know what I mean?
I think because there's a fairy tale that has been wound around a relationship with God, et cetera, that has to do with me. So like my relationship with God is good or God is good if A, B, C, and D happens rather than a true relationship with someone, with God, which is just a foundational thing. It's a peace. It's a presence. It's an undercurrent that while life is doing this, divorce, dad died, whatever that is for whoever you are, this is a steady presence and the most true thing we could ever experience, you know what… I mean, that's kind of mystical, but the most true thing of experience is relationship with God.
Jimmy: It is. And I'll tell you the other experience I had when I felt that same presence was my son Jimmy was born with spina bifida. He's my first born son of seven.
Andrew: You took after your parents.
Jimmy: He'd been through a lot.
Yeah, following my dad, went broke making Fortunes.
But he'd been through a lot in his life, and they didn't think he'd make it two hours. He had the worst case of spina bifida that was ever in UVA, University of Virginia. But the good news is, through a lot of prayer and everything, now he's 47-years-old but he's been through, you know, I want to say to hell and back. He's been there.
Andrew: Yeah, it's been a journey.
Jimmy: In so many ways. But a couple of years ago… A couple of years ago, we were on vacation in Folly Beach, South Carolina. And Jimmy was there with the rest of the family were there and he got really, really sick and we couldn't get him to the hospital back to Virginia. So we had to take him to the emergency room in Charleston. And he went in there and I mean, he was so sick. I mean, he had like three major, major infections in his body. And he actually went into kind of, just was out for about three days, like a coma type thing. And they didn't know if he was going to come back or not.
I had to leave at that time and go on the road. I had to go back out. And so I had my other son, his brother, stay with him in South Carolina. So he kept keeping me posted on what was going on. I didn't want to leave because you know how hard it is, but I've had to do it many times in his life and hardest thing I've ever had to do really.
So I get a call. It's like on Sunday night, and Chris, my son, said, "Dad, it's not good." He's not, he hadn't been coherent for a couple of days now, not eating, he's not doing anything. And they're just debating on what to do, whether just to let him go or whatever." And the reality of all of it hit me so hard. I hung up with him and I hit my knees like I've never hit my knees before. I mean, I prayed til, I cried and I prayed and I prayed and I cried and I prayed, and I stood up after I finished praying and I walked over to the Bible and literally opened it, opened it up. And my eyes fell on these words written in read, "I will come heal him."
I saw that and I went, and it was like, he was speaking to me saying, don't doubt this.
Andrew: And you believe. I mean, that was--
Jimmy: I believed it. I said, and I got right on the phone and I called my son. I said, "Son..." I said, "God's going to heal him." I told him what happened. I said, "I know he's going to heal him." And it was like God spoke to me because I hadn't rested. And I was really, really at my wit's end. And God spoke to me and said, "Lay down and rest. I'm going to give you a good night's rest. And when you get up in the morning, I am going to heal him. Don't doubt it."
I just kept saying that over. But then there was something in the back of my mind still saying, the human side of me was saying, I don't know, you know.
Andrew: Well, you think leaving it open because the kind of disappointment or grief that went ensue of it wasn't to be.
Jimmy: You're right. Right. But I said, I did say… I said, "God, even if you don't, I accept." I told him that.
And phone rang up that next morning and my son Chris says, "Jimmy, daddy, you're not going to believe this." I said, "What? Tell me. Yeah, I'm going to believe." He said, "He's up saying, 'I'm well and I'm hungry and I want something to eat.'"
Andrew: This is the next morning?
Jimmy: He had two sweet potatoes is what he wanted and a glass of orange juice is what he wanted. And from that moment on, he's been getting better and better every day.
Andrew: It seems like you take things on faith in that regard. Like you, that Bible was open. You read that and you have an element within you that is willing to believe. And there's a beauty to that. It seems a little childlike faith to me.
Jimmy: Well, there was any… He says, come on to me as a little child. And that's the only way I know how because I'm very, I'm not a very complicated person. I just… And I'm not, I don't consider myself a real smart person in a way. But I do feel like I have a openness of my spirit to Christ that is childlike. But I'm willing to accept the fact that, you know, if he didn't heal my child.
Andrew: That doesn't change.
Jimmy: That doesn't change the fact that I don't question God. I don't question why he did heal him. I don't question why he didn't heal my dad of cancer. It would be such a, I don't know how to… I don't know if I… A disgrace for me to ever turn my back on him after what he's done for me in my life. And I look at it and go, man, some of the things that he's brought me through despite myself and with my child Jimmy and with my whole family.
Even right today, the prayers that he's answered. And I get, like I said, four brothers and four sisters. And we're all, they're all getting to that age where things are starting to happen. But even through the hardships, we knew that our anchor was in a higher power. It had to be with Christ, not to run from him but run to him. And so that's been the whole key.
But when I think about my brother and sisters, even with all the things, we're all of the same agreeance that if it all ended right now, if I was to, something happen to me right now, I'm so thankful. I'm very thankful and happy that my life, I've had the life I've had. And mainly that I made the decision to follow Christ. That's the biggest decision I ever made.
Andrew: I think your sense of gratitude is very tangible. I think even from the time you walked in the room and this is the first time we've ever met in person, and I think gratitude, I'm learning as I'm getting a little older. I'm learning that gratitude truly is I think part of what opens up those spiritual eyes, you know? So I love hearing that.
I think culturally speaking, no matter, not just in America but all over the world, when you see communities that exercise gratefulness, you sense a different, I sense a different level of welcome, a different level of profound spirituality a lot of times. Like a trust and faith in God that is very elementary and basic and yet extremely profound in its childlikeness, if you will, and all that. So...
Jimmy: I think we can get, it can get too complicated for people, you know? Cause I hear people talk about it all like, you know, you hear they're talking about this story in the Bible and this story in the Bible and they don't understand. And there are a lot of things in the Bible that you look at and go, well, I don't know. You know, because there is a lot--
Andrew: They're not that great?
Jimmy: Yeah. And I have used the Bible for me, and I know some people might frown on this, but I literally use it as God's Word. And sometimes I may open it up and look at it and read something, man, I don't understand that at all. You know? When I'm reading it. But then there are times when there'll be something in my life going on that I'll just, I'll be reading it and going, wow God. It's just like he just reached out and just said, "This is what I want to tell you right now." Even though it may be a story about something totally different, "this is what I want you to hear right now."
And you know when it's God speaking to you. It's like you know when it's the devil speaking to you. You know that. You have that, we all are born with that instinct in us where, you know, we had that choice, is this God or is this the devil?
Andrew: Every time Mark talks to me I've… Sensed that.
Well, I want to express for both of us, but for me especially, today like an extreme amount of gratitude for your willingness to be here and just to express your life.
Jimmy: But honest to God, can't figure how I got here. How somebody in this town even knows my name sometimes because of the background where I came from. And I stood on the corner of a lot of these record labels back after the Statlers Brothers retired. And I would go in and get literally the boot. I mean, I don't know how else to say it. Like we don't need you, we don't want you, bye, bye. That's how you felt anyway.
They wasn't that bad, but to me, I took it to heart and I stood on the side of a street corner down here in Nashville and I felt defeated. I felt like… And I felt God, I really heard him speak to me. He said, "From this point on, trust me. Put one foot in front of the other. And if you're standing in front of 10,000 people or if you stand in front of 10 people, exalt me and with a thankful heart and I'll take care of you."
Andrew: Well, wait until the show airs. It'll be 10,000 people a night.
Jimmy: All right. Yes, sir. Love you, brother. Thank you so much for that.
Andrew: Thanks for the burgers. We don't ever get this excuse. I mean, we bought them. Thanks.
Jimmy Fortune singing “I Believe”
When I see the sunrise in the morning
When I feel the wind blow across my face
When I hear the sound of children playing
I know it’s all a part of God’s amazing grace
And I believe there’s a place called heaven
I believe in a place called Calvary
I believe in a man his name is Jesus
And I believe that he gave his life for me
I was there the day my mama went to heaven
I held her hand as she closed her eyes to sleep
I felt the power of ten thousand angels
Take her soul away to be crowned at Jesus’ feet
And I believe there’s a place called heaven
I believe in a place called Calvary
I believe in a man whose name is Jesus
And I believe that he gave his life for me
Oh, I believe that he gave his life for me
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Mark: Mark Lowry.
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