Nothing But The Truth featuring Matthew West
Matthew West is known for writing and recording number hit song after hit song after hit song. And though he had written truth-telling songs for years, he had yet to own up to the truth that though he was playing the role of a "professional Christian" he had yet to accept his true identity as a child of God. Hear Matthew's honest conversations plus a couple of his songs acoustic exclusively on this episode of Dinner Conversations!
Transcript
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Mark: I met Matthew West actually over the phone. We had a mutual friend, and she was really helping him get his career started as a songwriter-
Andrew: Years ago.
Mark: Probably 20 years ago. And we talked on the phone briefly, and he still remembers what I said, 'cause what happened was we didn't talk about this in the interview. They were wanting him to use… His record label was wanting him to go into Christian as a way to go into secular.
Andrew: Oh, okay.
Mark: And I said on the phone, I said, "Well, you can go, you can cross over as long as you take the cross over." And he remembered that. He still remembers it.
Andrew: Really?
Mark: I remember that.
Andrew: Yeah. I've heard you say that.
Mark: Millions of times, but it's the truth. Don't go if you can't take Jesus. And he has not. He's stayed in Christian music, and he's been very successful. And this new song-
Andrew: "Truth Be Told"
Mark: "Truth Be Told." Oh my goodness, I love honest songs. Don't you?
Andrew: Yeah, and Matthew's an honest person as well. He was talking to us about how to be vulnerable, how to be authentic. He talks about his history as what he would call being a professional Christian and really growing into having a relationship with God and beginning to discover his identity, not based on what he does but just based on him being a child of God. It is a really, really fun and good conversation.
Mark: And there's one seat left at the table, and it's yours. So let's join the conversation.
Andrew: That's very southern of you.
Mark: Thrilled you're here because you are one of my favorite songwriters.
Andrew: He's serious. He's serious about that. That is not some kind of platitude.
Matthew: Well, cheers to that. Thank you very much for those kind words.
Andrew: I wasn't saying… For me. (laughs)
Matthew: Well, thanks Andrew.
Mark: And I love the new song, which right now slipped my brain again.
Andrew: "Truth Be Told"
Mark: "Truth Be Told"
Matthew: I love it so much that--
Andrew: Yeah, you're not the only one.
Matthew: I can't remember it.
Andrew: You're not the only one.
Mark: You wait till you're 62. You've got a few years to go buddy. The memory comes and goes.
Andrew: But I was surprised this morning. I sent him the story behind the song that you did on "Truth Be Told."
Matthew: Okay.
Andrew: I said, "Hey, just start watching.” So he was like, "I've seen it. I love that song." That's very rare for Mark over here.
Matthew: No, Mark texted me on March 6th of 2021, telling me how much you love that song.
Mark: Yeah, I did.
Andrew: Did you respond?
Matthew: I did.
Mark: He actually did.
Matthew: And then he texted me something else, a video that I don't know… You know how sometimes– This is my defense. But sometimes you'll get a text message and you'll just completely miss it. That happens, right?
Andrew: Sure. And you'll check it and miss it. Yes.
Matthew: But like if I'm getting--
Mark: I mean, it hurt my feelings, but don't worry about it.
Matthew: So he followed up with a text, in true Mark fashion, that was something hilarious that I totally missed until I got here. He's like, "I sent you a video. Did it offend you?" It was a pastor saying...
Mark: Some pastor. Yeah. He was trying to say, "Dear Heavenly Father." And he said, "Dear holy farts."
Andrew: Seriously?
Mark: Cause he meant to say, "Heavenly Father, our hearts." So he kinda-- "Dear holy farts."
Matthew: Dear holy farts.
Mark: And I said, "Oh Lord, I have offended him."
Andrew: But it is kinda right up your alley.
Matthew: If you knew me well enough, which after this you will, you know you can't offend me. So...
Mark: And it's so interesting that we have mutual friends, Kathy Ward and of course Cindy Wilt going back. Oh my gosh, what a treasure she was.
Matthew: Cindy Wilt was a… I feel like I'm gonna spend the whole interview talking with my mouth full.
Andrew: That's fine. There's a couple networks that hate it.
Matthew: Cindy Wilt was a dear friend of both of ours. And she was instrumental in helping my career launch. Like she spent her whole life being a champion of others. So for all of the ones who are on stage entertaining or, in your case, entertaining big time, right? Making people laugh and singing with you. We're the ones in front of the camera, but there's these amazing people behind the scenes, just like the people behind these cameras. They spend their whole lives propping and lifting up and helping other people achieve their dreams. And Cindy was one of those people for us, and she passed away way too soon.
Andrew: When did you first realize that there's a lot of people that make this machine go? Or that to realize your dreams, it's gonna require a team of folks and how do you properly honor those? That's true for anybody. You know what I mean? But when did that first come into focus for you?
Matthew: Well, she was a big part of it. And I think the first time that-- I would say I've taken that for granted more times than I've stopped to really acknowledge and appreciate that, if I'm being honest. Maybe it'll make me feel better to think that a lot of us would do that where it's just, we're just so focused on doing life that we rarely stop long enough to think about who's helping me make it through. Like if I stop long enough to go, "Wow."
Like for example, my wife is out of town this week. I'm in charge of my daughters' schedules. And it took a few days with my wife being out of town to go, "Wait a minute, so this kid goes to this camp and this kid goes here, but I gotta go hang out with these guys and have dinner and interview." And I'm like, "Oh, what am I doing?" So now I'm going, "Oh, okay." It's just that little reminder that I couldn't do this without Emily.
Andrew: Well, it's also a reminder of who are the people that can't do it without us. And are we serving people in that way? You know, I think that's kind of interesting.
Talk about the song "Truth Be Told," because we were talking about this today, Mark and I, and was this the year? Was it 2020 when you started to kind of come to this realization that who am I is a...
Matthew: I'm not saved.
Andrew: To boil it down. That's what I wanted to say.
Mark: The song is basically saying, "I want to be real," right?
Matthew: Yes.
Mark: And I'm not always fine.
Matthew: It's about honesty and authenticity, easy for you to say, and how hard that is to find in our world right now. But truthfully how hard that can be to find in the story of my life, right?
In fact, so one other thing I wanted to say about what came to my mind as you were talking about the people behind the scenes helping is at our friend Cindy's memorial service. I don't know if you remember this, but you know how they have like pallbearers? The people who were carrying her casket out were all women who were serving time at the women's prison that she went to behind the scenes every week without fail. And she served them, and they had rehabilitated and had come to pay their respects to her.
And that was a moment where I remember thinking, "Here's this lady whose greatest legacy is how much she lifted other people up." And I got really, truth be told, I got really convicted to think, "All right, Matthew, who have you championed other than your own cause?" Right? And so that was a big moment for me to think about that.
And so speaking of honesty and authenticity, like I think that's part of my story. It's like, man, when you gotta dream to make music, it's like there's nothing gonna stop you, not even helping other people sometimes, right.
Andrew: Yeah. I mean, you're being very honest. Yeah.
Matthew: Exactly. So I think just in every respect, that song "Truth Be Told" is me kind of like crying out to myself to say like, "Just because you're in front of a camera all the time, just because you're on stage, just because you're a preacher's kid, just because you know how to say the right things, quote the right scriptures, write the right songs, and do the right shows, like the world doesn't need to see this pretender that you can easily dial up."
What the world's really gonna be impacted by is an authentically flawed human being, who's okay maybe not being put together all the time.
“What the world’s really gonna be impacted by is an authentically flawed human being.”
Mark: How close is authenticity to exhibitionism? I mean, when you can't… When you're saying you can't expose. I mean, you can also share too much of yourself.
Matthew: With too many.
Mark: And in one night. You have one night. You can't do major surgery in one night. You can do a little bit, a little nip and tuck, with the audience. But if you were to-
Matthew: That's actually the name of my tour, The Nip and Tuck. It's funny you mention that.
Mark: I am anointed.
Andrew: What level do you be authentic?
Mark: How far can you go? I mean, when does exposing yourself to your audience, which is brilliant to do. When you show your scars, they'll show theirs, right? We know that.
Andrew: That's weird.
Mark: Well, my dad was in prison. So my dad at 76 went to prison.
Matthew: Wow.
Mark: I couldn't get up and talk about that every night.
Matthew: Because it was too painful for you?
Mark: Too painful for me and there was no solution. I don't like to talk about something till it's fixed.
Andrew: Well, the question is-
Matthew: That's a great point.
Andrew: Okay.
Matthew: Because I think… This is what I've discovered in my songwriting is that it's way easier to wait until you've made it through a struggle in your life and then write about it, looking back from the past tense, because you've seen Romans at work. You've seen how God, "Oh, he did indeed work all things for the good."
But I will also say that sometimes there's a surface level of communication of the gospel when you only write from the past tense, by looking back and saying, "Look what the Lord has done." That's great. But there's also something powerful about Paul saying, "I pleaded with God, like three times." The thorn is still in his flesh while he's writing the new text.
Andrew: I don't know what God is gonna do, except what he's already done.
Mark: Yeah, that's my point exactly. But he never told us what the thorn was.
Matthew: Never told us what it was. And just like with the song "Truth Be Told," like I'm not necessarily unpacking--
Andrew: All the details.
Matthew: All the.... Because that's as an individual, here's the deal.
Andrew: Well, you don't have to do it on stage, but… That's what we're here for, right?
Mark: Unpack, brother.
Matthew: For individuals though, to go like, "Hey." Knowing the time and the place. And especially as people in front of a camera, like here's what I would say. This song tells the story of the guy who is supposed to always have all the answers, acknowledging, you know what, I need to see a counselor. I need-- You know what?
Andrew: Professional help.
Matthew: Exactly. Like maybe having those, just being honest about the fact that I don't have everything put together, that I freak out in the middle of a pandemic and wonder how I'm gonna take care of my family, and that… Do you know what I mean?
And so I think there's power in being vulnerable in the way that you communicate your message, but there's also a time and a place. And I think in everybody's life, you've also had those conversations with people. Sometimes people come up to you at a show and say, "Hey, nice to meet you." And then just likes spill the deepest, darkest secrets of their life. And it's like, that's not the point either, right? The point is to realize that God is uniquely going to work all things for the good in your life.
So I'll give you a great example. Like a woman named Jenny, she shared her story with me in a very discreet way. She wrote a letter, and she heard me talking at a conference about how there's power… I talk a lot about how there's power in our story, but we might be surprised by which chapter God wants to speak the loudest through. And sometimes it might be those chapters that are, truth be told, less than put together. We always think about...
I talk a lot about how... I go, "God, use my good stuff." And God's saying, "I know about your good stuff. I gave it to you. Give me all the rest."
Mark: And it ain't that good.
Matthew: Yeah, watch him be… Exactly.
So Jenny writes to me about how a scared teenage kid got pregnant, the boyfriend didn't love her, took off. She's scared of the judgment from her family, her church in Austin, Texas. And so she decided to take care of her problem, right? And she chose to terminate her pregnancy, and it's haunted her for all these years since, right? She'd been married for 27 years, never told her husband. But deep down, there's this part of her story that just...
When I was talking at that conference about your story, there was something that brought that way up. And it was something she dealt with every single day. So she decided to just tell me about it, right? So I wrote a song for her, and I called her, and she didn't expect me to call her. And I said, "Why of all people would you share your story with me?" And she said, "Well, I never thought you'd actually read it. I just needed to set that secret free."
Mark: Oh wow.
Matthew: And she started crying. She said, "But I'm glad you did because secrets are a heavy thing to carry." And I thought, well, there's power in that.
Now here's where the story gets really good. She starts to realize that maybe this part of her story is not the shame that needs to hide back with the skeletons in her closet. But rather, maybe just maybe, this could be an empowering moment for her story. So now she volunteers all the time at the crisis pregnancy center in Austin, Texas. And they put her with young women who are coming through those doors, wondering if they too should take care of their problem or if they should take heart and take hold of a new life and dare to believe that God's gonna help them through that process. So I love seeing that.
And that to me can come from… Songs like "Truth Be Told" are helping people go, "All right. What if I got honest about what's going on in my life?"
Andrew: Well, it's a great example of what you're saying that authenticity at a certain level doesn't have to have all the nitty gritty and can still inspire and motivate others as well as ourselves to do the things maybe, wrestle with things, talk about the things with the people that matter.
Mark: His questions are real long.
Andrew: Well, I'm actually having a conversation, but-
Matthew: My answers are real long. So when I answer, you eat.
Mark: No, we love 'em.
Andrew: That's right. That's right. So it's a shared experience.
But the identities we hide behind, like you think about Jenny, this woman and probably the identity of kind of shame or even that abortion became her identity even secretly. Let's talk about that for a second because you wrote a book called "Hello, My Name Is."
Matthew: Yep. All about identities.
Andrew: All about identities, and the identities that are barriers for us in our relationship with God, or as identifying as a brother and sister of Jesus or a child, a son and daughter, of God. So for you, what has that identity been that has been a barrier in your relationship with God?
Matthew: Like false identities?
Mark: Yeah, yeah.
Andrew: Yeah, yeah. To the true identity.
Matthew: So what's interesting is the song "Truth Be Told" was... Normally, like my song ideas inspire my book ideas, but I was writing a chapter about the false identities and about authenticity really. And one of the chapters was talking about, "Hello, my name is pretender." And I talk about my upbringing as a preacher's kid and this ability that I had at a very young age to kind of put on a show, right? I literally remember… And this is and this is me being honest, that there's been moments as a kid in the front row where I'm like, if I raise my hand during this slow song in the worship service, like the parents behind me are gonna nudge their kid. Like they're gonna think, "Man, why can't my kid..."
And sometimes it was placed on me to be the example. I remember getting kicked out of the Christian Boy Scouts, which was called Royal Rangers, because they expected me to open with a prayer every week. And one week I just like stood up and had my William Wallace rebellion and said, "I'm not gonna pray. And you can't make me." Was it because I didn't want to pray? No, it's just because I didn't like that the leader was saying, "You need to set the example. You're the preacher's kid."
Mark: Horrible.
Matthew: And so I think there's that. But so as far as me, that chapter that I was writing wound up inspiring the song "Truth Be Told." I'm going, "Okay, let me start to peel back some of my own layers.” Like what, what am I? And I think a lot of times, for me, it's like the fear of failure.
Like I've done a lot of digging into the Enneagram which I used to think was like, I was like, what is that? What's going on?
Andrew: Some of our viewers can tell you what they think about it.
Mark: I still kinda think that.
Matthew: You think it's weird?
Mark: Well, I'm old. I don't understand it.
Matthew: Well, I'll tell you what.
Andrew: He's not of that threshold.
Mark: I don't know what that means either.
Andrew: I don't know either.
Matthew: Some of it felt like it was reading my mail though, and when I discovered, like, when I read a certain number, so it was like the number three. And I read that description of like, I was like, okay, this is the performer. This is the guy who, he's desperately afraid of being a failure, or like if he has number one song, he's convinced that it's gonna be the last number one song. And so he's gotta work even harder, right? And then just this relentless...
And I think that maybe one of the names that I run from that I'm convinced is gonna be on my name tag at some point is failure. And some people will probably look at me and go… In fact, my wife looks at me and is like, "What's the matter with you? What the heck's the matter?" Or my team would go...
Mark: How are you working on that?
Matthew: I don't know. I think I just need to sit here and talk with you guys. Well, I'll give you a great example.
So I'll never forget. I got a text message. This was years ago. My brother was managing me, and this is probably what led to us ending that.
Andrew: How did that work out?
Matthew: But he's like, "I got great news. You got nominated for a Grammy award." That was the text message. I texted back, "Which category?" He texted me back, "Christian song of the year." My response, "Not album?" His response, "What's wrong with you? I quit." But I think that's been a struggle for me.
Andrew: Interesting.
Matthew: And it's not because I'm ungrateful. I think there's just something deep.
Andrew: It's like hard to relax and just receive it.
Mark: Who are you competing with? I mean, Bill Gaither told one time, "I've really only ever competed with myself." Now I don't know if that's really true or not, but he tries to outdo himself. Is there anything wrong with that? I mean, you want to outdo your last album.
Andrew: What if it never stops?
Matthew: I think, for me, the challenge is why is it so hard for me to rest in my God-given identity? And what's interesting is like, when you listen to a lot of my songs, even like you mentioned my book, "Hello My Name Is." It's a book about identity. One of the biggest songs of my career is about taking hold of the most significant title you'll ever have, which is 1 John chapter three, verse one. "How great is the love of the father who lavished on us that we should be called children of God." And that is what we are.
It's easy for me to preach that from the stage, but it is so hard for me to rest in that off stage, to go like, "I'm never a failure in God's eyes." So whether I'm competing against myself, like Bill Gaither used to say, or other artists or whatever, I don't know. I would say if anything, it's probably I'm trying to outrun that word getting on my name tag. And the enemy, when I'm feeling weak, like Satan will try to make me feel like, "No, that's..." And that can be failure career wise, that can be failure in terms of my spiritual life, right?
I mean, I'm the guy who, like I'll beat myself up. If my goal is to… We were talking about reading the Bible through from top to bottom. I'll count the days that I'm reading in a row, but if I miss a day.
Andrew: It's over.
Matthew: Then I'm like… That's why I sing so many songs about grace because I rarely give it to myself. And that's a struggle for me.
Matthew West singing “Truth Be Told”
Lie number one you're supposed to have it all together
And when they ask how you're doing
Just smile and tell them, "Never better"
Lie number two, everybody's life is perfect except yours
So keep your messes and your wounds
And your secret’s safe with you behind closed doors
Truth be told
The truth is rarely told now
I say I'm fine, yeah I'm fine oh I'm fine, hey I'm fine but I'm not
I'm broken
And when it's out of control I say it's under control but it's not
And you know it
I don't know why it's so hard to admit it
When being honest is the only way to fix it
There's no failure, no fall
There's no sin you don't already know
So let the truth be told
There's a sign on the door, says, "Come as you are" but I doubt it
'Cause if we lived like it was true, every Sunday morning pew would be crowded
But didn't you say the church should look more like a hospital
A safe place for the sick, the sinner and the scarred and the prodigals
Like me
Well, truth be told
The truth is rarely told
Oh am I the only one who says
I'm fine, yeah I'm fine oh I'm fine, hey I'm fine but I'm not
I'm broken
And when it's out of control I say it's under control but it's not
And you know it
I don't know why it's so hard to admit it
When being honest is the only way to fix it
There's no failure, no fall
There's no sin you don't already know
So let the truth be told
Can I really stand here unashamed
Knowing that you love for me won't change?
Oh God if that's really true
Then let the truth be told
I say I'm fine, yeah I'm fine oh I'm fine, hey I'm fine but I'm not
I'm broken
And when it's out of control I say it's under control but it's not
And you know it
I don't know why it's so hard to admit it
When being honest is the only way to fix it
There's no failure, no fall
There's no sin you don't already know
Yeah, I know
There's no failure, no fall
There's no sin you don't already know
So let the truth be told
Food for the Hungry Sponsorship Message
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The Abide Bible Sponsorship Message
Mark: The Bible is the foundation of our theology. We would not know of Jesus if it weren't for the Bible. We wouldn't know about grace. We wouldn't know about how God cares for us. And there is a new Bible out called the Abide Bible. You know how Jesus said, if you abide in me as I abide in my father, and we abide in each other, and it's just a continual feed off each other. And what I like about this Bible is it's asking us to go deeper.
Andrew: Yeah, it's taking an approach to the Bible from being just simply informational to really being invitational. So there's a lot of prompts in this Bible to journal alongside Scriptures. It gives you opportunity to pray certain Scriptures at different seasons of your life, to meditate on the Scripture. There's beautiful artwork in here that's really cool cause it's not just like some kind of Sunday school artwork. They're using like da Vinci and beautiful pieces of classic art to really just get us to imagine, to be able to use all of our senses as we enter into Scripture, so that we really step into the story of Scripture, not just see it as words on a page but as part of a living, breathing active part of our lives. And you know what? I asked my brother one time, who's a pastor, I said, "Why is the Bible so important?" And he said exactly what you said a second ago, because it is the greatest written revelation of who God is. And so it gives us the opportunity to know God but also to be a part of God's story. That's the Abide Bible.
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Andrew: Do you think in the culture of the church? Okay. So we're kind of talking about American church here because that's where-
Matthew: I didn't expect you guys to make me be this honest, by the way. I wrote that song. I don't want to be that way.
Andrew: It's something we put in the water.
Matthew: Go ahead. I'm sorry.
Andrew: You know, is the church… Like would you believe that you're loved, no strings attached? Would you be more likely to believe that if the church looked different?
Matthew: Well, the second verse of that song "Truth Be Told" says, "There's a sign on the door. It says, 'Come as you are but I doubt it.' Cause if we lived like that was true, every Sunday morning pew would be crowded." Those words pack a little bit of a punch or a dig even. And so I don't know that I can blame the church for--
Mark: Well, we are the church.
Matthew: We are. Yeah.
Mark: So it's we must have done that, if that's the case.
Matthew: And I think, honestly, it's like I'm sure there are plenty of churches that… I mean, look, I think if a lot of people are honest, they feel like when they walk in the doors of the church, their tendency is to clean themselves up first. Right? That's why the chorus is so repetitive.
Like and when I talk at my shows… In fact, last night we were just rehearsing for our summer, and I was kind of going through like how do I want to communicate this message at the end of the night? It's like somebody in the crowd saying, coming into church and saying, "No, I'm fine. I'm not battling depression. I'm fine." No, I'm fine, or my marriage is fine. It's not on the verge of divorce, so I'm fine. This addiction is not an addiction." You know what I mean?
It's these things that, I don't know, it's like the church should be the place where you can come with your-
Andrew: Call like it is, right?
Matthew: Brokenness. But I do feel like there is, whether it's brought on by the church itself or just how the enemy plays tricks on our minds, like there's this feeling that maybe you can't really come as you are.
“The church should be the place where you can come with your brokenness.”
Andrew: Well, is that also an indicator that maybe those of us going to church don't believe what the church is or who the church is in Jesus? Like maybe we don't actually believe that God is enough.
Matthew: Yeah, that's… I mean.
Andrew: That that is the beginning and the end. Maybe we actually do believe that we're such a huge part of that, you know, our own salvation.
Mark: And also, your career, especially if your career- And I just took a bite before I did this. If your career is the standard of whether you're a failure or not, if your number ones, if your...
Matthew: Right.
Mark: Careers do this.
Matthew: Exactly.
Mark: They do, you know.
Andrew: Life does that.
Mark: And so yeah, life does that. So I don't know where along the way I just gave up, I mean, not gave up, but gave up on that race. I said, "I'm taking myself off this carousel."
Matthew: So how did you do that?
Mark: Just step aside.
Matthew: Because this is an opportunity for me to go, okay, if there's something to achieve in Christian music, in entertainment, in all this stuff, you've done it and do it continually.
Mark: Well, but I do it at my own pace now.
Matthew: But have you ever struggled with the thoughts that I have of going, like you're only as good as your last, your last sold out show, or your last-
Mark: I was 44 once.
Matthew: But was it as easy as going, "I'm taking myself off that treadmill?"
Mark: It was at a certain age, like two years ago. Well, the year before the COVID, I took the year off.
Andrew: The COVID, that's his age.
Matthew: Exactly, I like that.
Andrew: The YouTube.
Mark: And I took that whole year off. I just missed God by one year. I should have taken the next year.
Andrew: It'd have been easier.
Mark: But I had the best two years. I loved the plague. It didn't bother me a bit. I was in my Lazyboy.
Andrew: I mean, that's also a place of privilege. There's not a lot of people who can say-
Mark: Well, that's true. I will say that.
Matthew: I know what you mean.
Mark: But the thing is you've got children to raise, you're young. I've never had a child, don't understand that pressure, but I can imagine when the whole world shuts down and you've got babies to feed.
Matthew: Well, and I just think it's… What's interesting to me is I don't want my kids to see in me that like… Like the message that I'm all about with my kids, if there's something that I feel like I'm knocking out of the park as a dad, it's I will proudly say that, like I make my kids know that in my eyes, win or lose, they are nowhere near the word failure. Like they can do anything. They can accomplish anything. They're success in my eyes before they even walk out the door.
Mark: And that's how the Father looks at you.
Matthew: Exactly.
Mark: And you know what? Here's something I want- I don't know this- You can cut this out of the tape 'cause I've said it a million times, but it's so true.
The pot doesn't get to tell the Potter what the pot's worth. He thought you were worth dying for and how rude not to agree with him.
“The pot doesn’t get to tell the Potter what the pot’s worth.”
Matthew: Right.
Mark: How rude.
Matthew: Your finger's a little close to my face right now.
Andrew: You're like receiving it but looking at me.
Matthew: I'm like, "Is he gonna pick my nose right now?"
Mark: When it dawned me… "Life of the Beloved" by Henri Nouwen, "Life of the Beloved," that showed me that when I walk in the room, he's watching everything I do, not so he can step on me, because he loves me so much he can't take his eyes off me.
Matthew: And that's the thing.
Mark: And you love your children more than God loves you?
Andrew: And who speaks that to you? Is that your wife, is that your-
Matthew: Right.
Andrew: You know. And like what does your wife say about that? That's what I'm curious. You know, someone who's been...
Matthew: Well, I just wonder how many people… Because I think we all in our professions, like, we're trying to tell the world how much Jesus loves you, and like what you just said to me, like that is something like, I gotta receive that, and I love hearing that in that reminder. And that's exactly what I'm gonna get on stage in Iowa in a few nights and say to the people. But how many people on stage doing that are walking off having a hard time believing that in their own lives?
And maybe that's the full circle of the meaning of the song "Truth Be Told." It's just saying, "Lord, search me, know me.” Like I want to be able to receive the same messages that I'm sending to the world. And I think isn't it just like the enemy, isn't it just like the father of lies, to go right at the messenger with the antithesis of the message that he or she is delivering?
Mark: And if you know that's coming, usually on Monday after a great weekend, you can prepare for it.
Matthew: Yes.
Mark: Right? And you can remind yourself, I'm the image of God on legs.
You know, I remember sitting behind Jerry Falwell when I was at Liberty at a basketball game, and his redheaded boy came walking on the other side of the arena, and I saw Jerry Falwell's head turn off the game and follow that boy all across that arena. And I remember thinking, he's not watching him to see if he's gonna mess up. He's watching him because his image walked in, the apple of his eye walked in. And I have to believe-
Matthew: I love that.
Mark: That God is that crazy about us, if he's the perfect father. The reason why you love your children is a broken image of what God thinks of you.
Matthew: That's right. Yeah.
Mark: And you just gotta remind yourself. And don't you think the more you tell that audience, the more you believe it?
Matthew: Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah. And, but here's the thing too, is like, if my daughters see in me the inability to, like if they see in me this drive... 'Cause it's funny. I was saying to my daughter yesterday, my oldest daughter, I was asking her, I was like, "What are some of the things that I do that encourage you?" And then I asked-
Mark: What a great question.
Matthew: Well, I got it from pastor. I got it from a pastor who said he was taking some inventory. And then you ask the other, what are some of the things I do that discourage you? And I remember one of the things my oldest daughter said, she's like, "You work really hard. And that encourages me to like work hard too. And you always tell me that I can." She said, "When I came to you and said, 'I think I want to try lacrosse,' you said, 'Let's go to the store. Let's get the things.'" You know what I mean?
But one of the things she commented was how hard I work, and I just want my work to be coming from the right, like-
Andrew: Motivation.
Matthew: From the right place. You know what I mean? And only me and God will know. 'Cause a lot of people, they're like, "Man, how do you find enough time in the day?" And that's one of my Enneagram number's like strengths is like we get stuff done. I get stuff done, dude. But that can also be coming from this… Am I running to all the things I'm getting done, or am I running away from this name tag that says failure on it because I haven't fully embraced what God says about… Or as you said, the Potter. I love that.
Andrew: But to even be aware, at this stage of your life, that you are running from something when you're thinking through that failure perspective, I think there's a lot of people in the world who never take a moment or take the time or are encouraged to step back a second and go, "Why am I spinning like this?" So even that awareness is a huge beginning. It's a huge step, and it's a huge example to your family, you know?
Matthew: Well, songwriting can be like… I wonder if you feel like this from the stage. Like I do feel like a lot of times I'm writing the songs that I-
Andrew: You need?
Matthew: That I need. Yeah. I've described it like this. I literally, I've never heard God speak in an audible voice, but there are moments, there was a moment on stage where like I started praying this prayer nightly, like just a very quick prayer as I walk on stage. And I don't know where I got it from or why, but I had this image of arrows, and I just imagined one by one the songs that I would sing becoming arrows shooting from the stage.
And what I loved about that image of the arrow is that the arrow doesn't do this like a shotgun. You know, the arrow has a very finite focus and aim. It's going to towards a target, and it may be towards Jenny, right? It may go straight for Jenny. It may not be for the person next to Jenny, but that other song may have an arrow focus because that's how involved in the details God is. And so I would pray this every night, like turn these songs to arrows, you know?
And well, what's crazy is I'm on stage one night, and I was singing a song. I know exactly, it was a song called "Only Grace." And the word grace is in more of my songs than any other word. And I've done the research, and I felt like the Lord said to me, "Matthew, you asked for arrows, but I gave you boomerangs." And it just like… And I remember just being struck from the stage going, in other words, he was saying-
Mark: It's for you.
Matthew: These are for you, yeah. Don't get to the end of your career and you missed that the songs you were singing were for the singer.
Andrew: Well, what if some of them were only for that? What if they were only for you?
Mark: Killing that audience with them, they're just for you.
Matthew: The audience is like, "Get outta here."
Andrew: That's why I never resonated.
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Matthew West singing “Hello, My Name Is”
Hello, my name is regret
I'm pretty sure we have met
Every single day of your life
I'm the whisper inside
That won't let you forget
Hello, my name is defeat
I know you recognize me
Just when you think you can win
I'll drag you right back down again
Till you've lost all belief
Oh, these are the voices, oh these are the lies
And I have believed them, for the very last time
Hello, my name is child of the One true King
I've been saved, I've been changed, I have been set free
Amazing grace is the song I sing
Hello, my name is child of the One true King
Whoa, whoa, whoa
Whoa, whoa, whoa
Whoa, whoa, whoa
I am no longer defined
By all the wreckage behind
The One who makes all things new
Has proven it's true
Just take a look at my life
Hello, my name is child of the One true King
I've been saved, I've been changed, I have been set free
Amazing grace is the song I sing
Hello, my name is child of the one true King
Whoa, whoa, whoa
Whoa, whoa, whoa
Whoa, whoa, whoa
What love the Father Has lavished upon us
That we should be called His children
I am a child of the One true King
What love the Father Has lavished upon us
That we should be called His children
Hello, my name is child of the One true King
I've been saved, I've been changed, I have been set free
Amazing grace is the song I sing
Hello, my name is child of the One true King, yeah
Matthew: I've never ended it like that before, but...
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Mark: Mark Lowry.
Andrew: And Andrew Greer.
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