Raising Teens featuring Leigh Nash
Grammy-nominated singer-songwriter and frontwoman of the platinum-selling modern pop band, Sixpence None the Richer, Leigh Nash gives us the scoop on what it's like raising her teenager in the 21st century. Plus, Caroline Breen, daughter of Point of Grace's Shelley Breen, turns the table to share what it's like being a teenager in the 21st century. No matter your age, pull up a chair and learn something new with us.
Transcript
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Mark: Well, we had a fabulous conversation with Leigh Nash about raising teenagers. Now you might know her from Sixpence None the Richer.
Kiss me
But she's also got kids.
Andrew: One.
Mark: Well, she's got one kid.
Andrew: So we should call it raising a teenager.
Mark: So, yeah,
Andrew: But, absolutely. I also had a great conversation. Leigh talked about what it is to raise children as they're coming up through their teen years, gave us the perspective of a parent. But I sat down with Caroline Breen. Of course, we film right here in David and Shelley Breen's house. Caroline is their daughter, who just graduated from high school, 18-years-old. And so we talked to her about what is it like to be a teenager in relationship with her parents? So it's a really cool episode, and Leigh is hilarious.
Mark: She is hilarious. And there's one seat left at this table, and it's yours. So let's join the conversation.
Leigh: You have rice on your nose. What kinda beast would I be if I didn't tell you?
Mark: You're a good friend.
Leigh: I am.
Andrew: Yeah. We're from Texas.
Mark: Oh, no. All three of us?
Andrew: Yes.
Mark: New Braunfels.
Leigh: New Braunfels.
Mark: I spent so many happy, happy childhood summers.
Andrew: With the rich kids.
Mark: No, well.
Leigh: I take that back.
Mark: Maybe.
Leigh: I've got a big chip on my shoulder.
Mark: You do?
Leigh: I'm working on it.
Mark: Oh. 'Cause I didn't know that, I was little. So we'd go there, and it was an old wood shack house that my dad got on this Comal River, I guess before the rich kids moved in. And we would float around there, and you'd get up and walk across the street, and you start back where you left, just do a circle.
Andrew: On the river?
Mark: Yes.
Andrew: The river was a circle?
Mark: It was a horseshoe. And you would cross the street, and you'd do it for another hour and a half.
Leigh: It's like a lazy river.
Mark: It is like a Huck Finn novel.
Leigh: The Comal, I believe, is the shortest river in the world.
Mark: He didn't write any novels, did he?
Leigh: Starts and stops in the same town.
Andrew: Really?
Leigh: Yeah. And it's really...
Mark: I interrupted you, what?
Leigh: Oh, it's okay.
Mark: No, say that again.
Leigh: I'm used to it. The Comal River is the shortest river in the world. I believe that that's still true.
Mark: I think you're right.
Leigh: 'Cause then nothing gets shorter, right? It just is or it isn't.
Andrew: True. Yeah.
Leigh: Maybe one just got shorter, so I don't know. But, yeah, I think it's the shortest.
Mark: So you started in New Braunfels? You were born there?
Leigh: I was born in Houston, but then raised in New Braunfels.
Mark: I was born in Houston.
Leigh: Were you really?
Mark: Still live there.
Leigh: And then where did you grow up?
Mark: Houston.
Leigh: And you still live there?
Andrew: Wait, we know about him. What was your growing up experience?
Leigh: I grew up in a Southern Baptist church. It was really a great church. It really was. My mom is a very spiritual woman. She's my hero. She's awesome. And my dad was also awesome. He passed away 12 years ago at 59. He was really young. But man, he just kept us spinning my whole childhood. He kept things very interesting and pretty traumatic, and my mom just kind of held the fort down. So of course, she's my hero.
Andrew: Sure.
Leigh: And as I go through therapy though, as an adult, the therapists are like, "Let's look at your mom a little better. Are you sure that she's the hero in this picture?"
Andrew: Yeah.
Leigh: You're fired.
Andrew: We learn more about our parents. As we get older, we begin to filter 'em through an adult perspective.
Leigh: Right.
Andrew: Though it takes like a little hump, I feel like, to get over what we idolize about our parents to then not idolize 'em, but once we do, they're more human, and don't you think they're more beautiful?
Mark: And that may be why the teen years you go crazy, 'cause you start realizing they're a freak just like you.
Leigh: Right. It's gotta be alarming.
Mark: Maybe that's it.
Andrew: When you were growing up, did you go, "My dad is keeping us spinning and interesting," or did you not really see it that way?
Leigh: I was reading about myself last night. I looked something up where you can put in your time of birth and your month of birth, or your birthday, it'll give you an alarming amount of information about yourself, and I found it to be really accurate.
And I was playing peacemaker, and I know that's a really common family of origin thing that can happen. I have one older sister that's two years older, but I was the peacemaker. So I was aware that, yeah, my dad was definitely making things really tough on my mom and therefore on us, but I was trying to protect her, trying to protect my sister, even trying to protect my dad to a certain extent, take care of everybody.
So, then you don't necessarily get parented certain ways. I'm just learning my sister and I were not parented to be respectful of our dad 'cause he wasn't being worthy of respect.
Andrew: Respectful of himself maybe?
Leigh: Well, yeah, he was being like an older brother.
Andrew: Sure.
Leigh: So now we have a lot of leftover baggage from that. But I just kind of learned that recently with my therapist. He just said, "You were not parented to be respectful, so you're nasty to your husband."
Mark: Oh really?
Andrew: Interesting.
Leigh: And so now I'm like really trying to be aware of that and show respect and also communicate with him, "Hey, this is not really, I mean, it's my fault, but-
Andrew: But it's not natural.
Leigh: "Help me work on this." Yeah.
Andrew: So he's championing that counseling?
Leigh: Yeah, I think so.
Mark: How's that going?
Leigh: The counseling?
Mark: No, how's it going? You say your husband is helping you.
Leigh: I think it's going way better.
Mark: There you go.
Leigh: He's dealing with his own stuff. He lost his father a year ago, so he is in deep grief right now. So I know I'm bringing up all kinds of stuff at this table, but it's an interesting time for all of us in the household, my son, my husband, and myself, to work on ourselves and to not repeat history, for him to not hold on to not letting go, which is what my husband's really good at. He lets go. I mean, he doesn't let go. So I'm trying to help him work through that, and at the same time, I'm trying to show my son, model good behavior, like a good, respectful treatment of the man of the household, so that when he grows up, he is not used to a woman saying, ...
Andrew: Diminishing him or…
Leigh: Every five seconds. Yeah. And I'm, I keep him laughing. I'm not an abusive wife.
Mark: You do?
Leigh: Yes. I'm very funny.
Mark: So you're funny when you chew him out.
Leigh: I'll do it with humor, and that's the same way it is in my sister's family, not to throw her under the bus.
Mark: Right.
Leigh: But this summer, I just got back from Texas, and I gently brought to her attention, "Hey, we're both stuck in a family of origin situation, so let's just help each other break out of it a little bit."
Andrew: Yeah. So there's a little bite to your humor.
Mark: How did she receive that?
Leigh: A lot of bite.
Andrew: Yeah.
Leigh: She was wonderful about it 'cause the way, I mean, I have to say because of the way I brought it up.
Mark: But seriously, it is the way you bring these things up, which matters.
Andrew: How?
Mark: When you bring them up to the sister, and you're not condemning her, and you're not accusing her. You're saying, "Hey, we're in this together."
Andrew: Yeah.
Leigh: Yeah.
Mark: And I've just learned this.
Leigh: I definitely said, "I just realized it about myself, so I wonder if that might be something that's happening here too." So instead of saying, "I noticed that you."
Andrew: Or this is what I saw about you, instead of here's what I've discovered about me.
Leigh: Not at all.
Andrew: Yeah. It's interesting, too, that for your son to be in a household with you and your husband, like he's seeing examples of people who are not always perfect, who are not always making all the right decisions, who are not always being married well, or parenting well, but are wanting to continue to be aware, self-aware.
Leigh: Aware.
Andrew: I mean, my dad was a therapist, so I think I got a little leg up as far as an encouragement to be self-aware, even at a younger age. But that's the most difficult thing, right? Is because if you become self-aware- I was talking to someone about this the other day. One, you have to be a critical thinker. You have to begin to want to actually think about things on a deeper level than just existing.
Leigh: Absolutely.
Andrew: Then that creates self-awareness. But then with that, that causes me to then be accountable to life.
Leigh: Right.
Andrew: That's not what most of us want. I don't want- That's not my favorite thing, to be accountable
Mark: It's work.
Andrew: Right.
Leigh: Yes. It is so much work. And I am very grateful though, for whatever reason, part of what, in my toolbox, when I was born, I was given a lot of natural ability to be vulnerable. So that's given me, I think, a lot of shortcuts into wanting something deeper because I'm aware like, oh my gosh, I'm- Even to a fault, like I'm trash.
Andrew: Oh, right. Sure.
Leigh: And I know there's a difference between vulnerability and just having poor self-esteem.
“There’s a difference between vulnerability and just having poor self-esteem.”
Andrew: Yeah. But you could be critical of yourself before...
Mark: I mean, we've all said that to ourselves.
Leigh: Sure. Of course. And sometimes the things that I've done have been trashy things. But there's self-care that you've gotta go in there, and books, authors have helped me. I've had teachers along the way, one of them being my mom, that have helped me kinda come a little closer to full circle. And as a parent, I think that vulnerability has been one of my best tools so far, just not even pretending for a second to be perfect. 'Cause my son is the opposite of my husband and I, of his dad, 'cause my husband is not Henry's dad. Henry's dad, his name is Mark. My husband's name is Steven if that helps in the conversation. But Mark and I are great friends. He's one of my best friends and...
Andrew: Henry's dad?
Leigh: Right. And so that's a huge blessing and something we've worked on. It's something that didn't just come out of nowhere. But none of us are like Henry. Henry is very stoic and serious, and he's really into languages. He's into learning Russian and Spanish, and he's just a different kind of person. And it's not that he's not creative, he's just not driven by the same things we are. And so I've said to him before, many times, "Think about that. You were given parents, you were given this structure that's opposite of who you are. Like what do you think that means God has for you or wants you to learn in life? You're in a bank with a bunch of clowns."
I mean, that just came off the top of my head.
Mark: That's really funny and true probably. He might feel that way.
Leigh: I think he does. And I've said before, "I'm sorry. There's nothing I can do about my personality other than be really aware of myself and try as hard as I can to be aware of your needs."
Andrew: Yeah.
Leigh: "And be sensitive and be vulnerable." Yeah.
Andrew: But I don't think any of us grew up wanting our parents to be, like I now look- The differences between my parents and me are what actually bond us together still to this day.
“The differences between my parents and me are what actually bond us together still to this day.”
Leigh: That's wonderful to know.
Andrew: I mean, I don't have children, so I can't speak into this from that personal experience, but being a child of parents who I still am in a relationship with, I think y'all will be such great friends.
Leigh: That's wonderful. I hope so. He's my favorite person in the whole world.
Andrew: You just wanna be his favorite person.
Leigh: Yeah, and that's not the case.
Mark: You know what, I'm sure he does. What's not to adore about you? You seem lovely.
Leigh: I agree with you.
Mark: I know.
Leigh: But I know he appreciates my color, and I do. It's not his thing.
Mark: The way you see things.
Leigh: Yeah. But I know that he does, he appreciates it, and I know he appreciates his stepdad. I know he loves his dad. They're going to Iceland the day after tomorrow, their first like dude trip.
Andrew: Cool.
Mark: Is his dad vulnerable? Is your husband vulnerable?
Leigh: He really is.
Mark: You made me think of something 'cause I don't remember my dad saying I'm sorry but one time to me when he thought I said S-H-I-T.
Leigh: Oh, dear.
Mark: But I didn't.
Andrew: But you didn't?
Mark: I was four. I will never forget it. I said shoot, and he thought it and he popped my face.
Leigh: Oh.
Andrew: Really?
Mark: And said, "We don't say that word." And I said, "I didn't." And he apologized.
Leigh: He apologized.
Andrew: But that's interesting 'cause that's an apology based on your behavior rather- Well, what I mean, that's kind of convoluted, right?
Mark: That's the only one I remember. I was four.
Andrew: Yeah. Conversely, I remember my dad, I remember that being very important because I'm very stubborn and I don't like to be wrong, and so it has given me a leg up that my dad apologized for things growing up.
Leigh: Right.
Andrew: In real time.
Mark: I think that's the most powerful thing a father could do is to show vulnerability to their child. Oh my gosh.
I was at a church one time, years ago, and I saw a poster that kind of reminds me of that. He said, "The greatest gift a father can give to their child is to love their mother."
Leigh: Oh.
Mark: Which I thought was so powerful.
Leigh: Very powerful.
Mark: But also, that whole thing of, the fact that I remember the one time, my gosh, what an impact that would have on children
Leigh: I know. And you were only four.
Andrew: Do you think about that as a parent? Like do you wonder sometimes when y'all have some kind of thing?
Leigh: Shake up?
Mark: Yeah, you're like, what do y'all shake up over?
Leigh: Well, I'm trying to think of the last time, if it's something I can even talk about. Things got pretty real in Texas a few times, but yeah, I had to apologize to him. I mean, sometimes I'll get a little too rough 'cause I'm really comfortable saying, "Henry Nash" and my tone is just, it's just too abrasive, and I'm not really sure where that comes from, but it's like, there will be no, be yes. You're gonna toe the line, you're gonna do what I say, and sometimes I'm just too harsh, and my mom brought that to my attention, so I apologized.
Mark: Yeah. And when he was four, you probably had to do that, but now you're having to change your way of parenting too, right? As they age.
Leigh: Very much. Give space, but make sure they know that you're right there. And I've only got the one child, so it's been hard for me to not be a helicopter parent. And so I'm learning to try to back off a little bit and also just make sure that he knows that I'm right there.
Andrew: Sure.
Leigh: And I've gotta rely on God to help guide me through this.
Mark: Oh yeah.
Leigh: 'Cause I've never parented before. I've never had a son. I didn't have a brother, other than my dad who was kind of a brother. Thanks, dad. Daddy brother, brother daddy.
Mark: I want you to meet my daddy brother.
Leigh: Come say hello to my daddy brother.
Andrew: That's very New Braunfels, it feels like.
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Andrew: All right. So Caroline Breen, which we're on set of Dinner Conversations
Caroline: Yes.
Andrew: Because that's your home.
Caroline: Yeah, it is. My room is right down there.
Andrew: All right. That's right. I remember the first day that we ever filmed any episodes of Season One, and I think you were sick that day from school, right?
Caroline: I was. I was here that whole week.
Andrew: Did we make you sick?
Caroline: No. But I remember someone came over and I was like, "What is that?" Cause it was really loud.
Andrew: Chonda Pierce.
But you were in middle school, I think, so if you think about it, you've grown up in front of our eyes. Here you are, you're 18, you're an adult. Okay. So tell me something. What year were you born?
Caroline: 2002.
Andrew: Okay. So 2002, I mean, that's amazing to me 'cause I was in college in 2002. But what I think about is you are, I mean, you guys that are becoming adults now, that're starting to go to college, and even get into the workforce are the first generation that you grew up in the 21st century. Have you thought about that before?
Caroline: Yes. A lot. Yeah. The whole social media.
Andrew: Right.
Caroline: Yeah.
Andrew: Which I think a lot of people 'cause your generation has a lot of nicknames right now. I don't know what they'll finally land on, Gen Z or whatever, but iGen is one of 'em right? Like an iPhone.
Caroline: I haven't heard of that. I've only heard of Gen Z.
Andrew: Oh really? Well, iGen I think is another name for Gen Z. Chris doesn't know either. But what do you think about that? Like a lot of people from a cultural perspective, just like a broad stroke, will look at your generation and just think constant selfies, Snapchat, obsessed with themselves. How do you see your generation?
Caroline: I see that because a lot of like social media, like TikTok and stuff, you're really trying to be creative and showcase your talents or what you're good at to get likes and followers and comments and stuff.
But I also kind of see it as like, we're creative in a way, and we're really advanced with technology where we know a lot of things. Like, there are kids now who can pick up an iPad and know how to turn it on, and there are some adults who don't even know how to do that.
Andrew: Sure.
Caroline: So, it's kind of, there's good and bad to it. It depends how you look at it.
Andrew: Well, and with everything, it's about perspective. I see the good of it, like I've always loved being around generations. Now that I'm getting older I like being around younger generations 'cause I'm always learning something from them.
I think that when we talk about generations, and my parents taught me this a long time ago, they really taught us to respect older generations when they were still younger and we were real little, but they also had people that were younger than them over. So we really learned how to interact with the different generations.
Do you feel like it's important that we have relationships that cross generations?
Caroline: Yes, because for me, when I'm applying for a job or something, I think it's really important to be able to have those conversations with people older, or like, if you go into a field with like teaching or anything, like also reaching out to younger generations and being able to make those connections with people I feel like is really important, being able to have a conversation with people who are older than you.
Andrew: So tell me this, do you feel like sometimes there's this perspective of y'all's generation going to hell in handbasket kind of thing? Is that your perspective?
Caroline: Like what do you mean?
Andrew: Like that it's all hopeless. There's nothing positive about young people today.
Caroline: I don't really see that. I think, like I said before, like there are so many of my friends who are so knowledgeable and like, are gonna do so many amazing things. And of course, there are some people who will sit on their phone 24/7 and do nothing, but I feel like that's kind of how it's been with other generations too. Like it kind of depends on how you're gonna live. Like are you gonna go out and do something great and pursue what you're passionate about, or are you just gonna not pursue it, kind of do nothing? So I guess it's kind of the same as always. It's just how you look at it and how you handle it.
Andrew: Absolutely. I heard someone the other day too talking about millennials, which is my generation, though I'm an old millennial, and they were saying how millennials kinda got a bad rap too about being real self-obsessed, but he said, "Actually, I see another perspective because millennials were the first generation," and I think this carries into your generation too, "where they were actually interested in what they do day to day for their bread and butter mattering, making a difference in the world around them." So I see that in your generation. I don't think you're just concerned with yourself. You're very passionate and you're willing to pursue that passion, but you're also concerned about how it connects with the world around you. If there's one difference you can make in the world through your life, what would you hope that would be?
Caroline: I'm thinking about maybe going into- This is like one of the fields that I might wanna go into, possibly studying political science and stuff because I feel like that whole news media is very, I don't know, I feel like it's very twisted right now, and I think it'll be really interesting to work in that field and be able to deliver to audiences like the whole truth and really investigate certain situations and just be able to give like an honest take on things because right now, our country, it's kind of crazy.
Andrew: Let's talk about your parents.
Caroline: Okay.
Andrew: All right. So let's talk about David and Shelley.
Caroline: Okay.
Andrew: Which we know, of course, your mom's been on our show with her group Point of Grace, and your dad's worked in music for years, and so we've all kind of known each other. Of course, you've known him your whole life too. But what is your favorite part about your parents? What's your favorite thing?
Caroline: So, for my mom probably I've gotten a lot of opportunities, because she's in Point of Grace and stuff, when I was younger to go out and travel with her, so that was really fun. And just like watching her when I was really young and just getting to know her coworkers, Denise and Leigh, and their kids, and just being out with them, that was a really great way to grow up, and I have so many awesome memories from that time, so that's probably for my mom.
And for my dad, I don't know. I feel like he's just a really kind person, and he can tolerate, like, there are so many times when he'll come home from work with like stories, and me and my mom are like, "How do you tolerate that?" And he is just, he kind of lets it go. He doesn't really invest in drama I feel like, so that's something I look up to I guess.
Andrew: And hope to incorporate in your life. That would be good if a lot of us incorporated less drama in our life. Especially in 2021, right?
Caroline: Yes.
Andrew: We've had enough drama probably for all of our lifetimes.
Caroline: So true.
Andrew: One thing that I remember about my parents, and my dad especially, that really impacted me is that he would apologize. When he had sincerely done something wrong or made a mistake, he would come to me even when I was a kid and apologize, which to me expressed a certain humility, even though he was my elder, he was my parent, and I was- I believe in honoring my mother and father and respecting them, but it produced a different dynamic between us where I could really trust my dad because he was willing to take responsibility for what was his, and it made me wanna take responsibility for what was mine, instead of trying to skirt the truth.
What's a lesson that you feel like you've learned or what's a way? Do you have an example of something that you're like that made my dad or my mom a human to me in a good way?
Caroline: Probably just like the daily sacrifices that they make for me. Like just them even sending me to the school that I go to, which I know that's a really big financial sacrifice for them, and just them doing everything that they possibly can do for my needs and my interests. And when I was younger, taking me from piano lessons to sports practice, whatever sport I was playing at the time. Just all of those sacrifices that they made for me day to day. And my mom like cooking for me and stuff.
Andrew: Your mother is a good cook.
Caroline: Right.
Andrew: Do you think you'll miss some of those little things, like your mom's cooking and stuff when you go to college?
Caroline: Yes, but if COVID keeps up, I probably will be home.
Andrew: I don't know that they're hoping for that.
Caroline: Maybe. I dunno.
Andrew: Okay. Tell me, just from where you're sitting today, what is your hope for the world around you?
Caroline: Probably to become more unified and be able to have conversations with people who maybe don't agree with you. Because I know right now in the political and social climate that we're in, I think it's hard to be able to connect with people who maybe don't share the same viewpoints as you on major topics, whether it be religion or politics or anything like that. So probably just being able to really sit down with one another and talk it out, and it's okay to not agree, but still being open to having those conversations.
Andrew: How do you think your faith plays into that perspective?
Caroline: Probably just being able to, I don't know, like, love is like the greatest commandment and just being able to love your enemies. And there's this whole verse about like, love your enemies, pray for those who hurt you and like, love those who mistreat you, like all those different things.
Andrew: And it's been true forever. Right? I think it's always been countercultural, and even to some degree, not the most intuitive human thing to do, right? To love someone that hurts you.
Caroline: Yes.
Andrew: But what we're learning and seeing is it can be one of the most powerful things.
Caroline: It's true.
Andrew: Can't it? And you get to exercise that even with your friends.
Caroline: Yes.
Andrew: I'm sure you can think of someone who may have hurt you and someone who you've hurt, and to be able to exercise love in spite of that, could make the world a different place, huh?
Caroline: Yes. 100 percent.
Andrew: So you've obviously, in your friendships with your peers, and being over at your friend's houses, et cetera, you've seen their parents' relationships with them, and you have a relationship with your parents. How important is it that parents try to relate to their kids, not just as a disciplinarian, that's important too, but as someone who's also a guide, a mentor, and in some ways also a friend?
Caroline: I think it's important to have a really good relationship like from the parent's perspective with your kid, but not overly protective, if that makes sense. Because I've seen instances where when the parent gives the child more freedom then they will go off and do crazy things, but I've also seen parents that, I don't know, I've seen it from both sides. Like if a parent is really overprotective, you have some kids, 50 percent of them will be scared outta their mind and don't wanna do anything crazy to upset the parent, but then you have the other 50 percent that wanna do the total opposite of what their parents say because it's so exhausting and they just want to rebel, I guess you could say.
Andrew: It's like what I hear you saying is, parents trust your kids before you distrust them, maybe?
Caroline: Yes.
Andrew: And that's harder said than done. If I'm a parent and I see all that's going on around the world, and I see some of my kids' friends too, and I'm like, who's influencing her, who's she buying into, that kind of thing, it can be real hard. But don't you think parents trusting kids first gives them a foundation of kind of security and confidence to make potentially good decisions?
Caroline: Yes. And if something doesn't go well, that's when you can learn that lesson of, okay, this was wrong, I'm not gonna do it again or else there will be consequences, but also I have the freedom to do what I want and potentially make right decisions without feeling like weighed down with rules and restrictions and pressure.
Andrew: I was talking to my parents more recently, 'cause I have two older brothers, so there's three of us, and we all really like hanging out with my parents to this day as adults. And I have other friends who I grew up with, who they don't have that kind of kinship with their parents. And so I asked my parents, I said, "Is there something you did in parenting that you felt like really developed that?" And they're very kind of, they're very observant people but pretty humble, and they were just like, "Y'all just turned out." And I was like, "Well, you had to have influenced us somehow. We definitely grew up in your household." They were present. And my dad said something that I thought was interesting and is reiterating some of what you're saying. He said, "We decided very early on in our parenting journey that you guys would have the freedom to fail and succeed. And those failures were your failures and the successes were your successes. So when you divinely screwed up on something, you had a safe place at home to come land and to face those consequences and to talk about it and to hurt and to grieve those things. And sure we might be," I don't even know if they used the word disappointed, "but we would walk in that journey of frustration and consequences with you. At the same time, when you succeeded, when you did something really fantastic, that was your success. We celebrate alongside you, but we did not take that for you."
Caroline: Yeah.
Andrew: So we all have seen parents who are so integrated in unhealthy ways in their children's lives, that their children are unable to develop into their own people. So I would say seeing you and how you've been parented that largely you've been able to develop into your own person.
Caroline: Yes.
Andrew: For better, for worse.
Caroline: Yeah. I don't know.
Andrew: Well, yeah, that's right. The verdict is still out. Perfect.
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Andrew: Yeah, it's taking an approach to the Bible from being just simply informational to really being invitational. So there's a lot of prompts in this Bible to journal alongside Scriptures. It gives you opportunity to pray certain Scriptures at different seasons of your life, to meditate on the Scripture. There's beautiful artwork in here that's really cool cause it's not just like some kind of Sunday school artwork. They're using like da Vinci and beautiful pieces of classic art to really just get us to imagine, to be able to use all of our senses as we enter into Scripture, so that we really step into the story of Scripture, not just see it as words on a page but as part of a living, breathing active part of our lives. And you know what? I asked my brother one time, who's a pastor, I said, "Why is the Bible so important?" And he said exactly what you said a second ago, because it is the greatest written revelation of who God is. And so it gives us the opportunity to know God but also to be a part of God's story. That's the Abide Bible.
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Andrew: I was thinking some about career, about Sixpence None the Richer, and when you and Matt Slocum, your partner, and you were around 14, 15, right? So you were around Henry's age, and I'm thinking about, even though...
Mark: Would you let him up and move away?
Andrew: Yeah, think about your lifestyles as 15-year-old.
Leigh: I would, if it were the same circumstances, because I didn't move away at that age, but my mom and dad did start letting me travel with Matt Slocum. We'd drive up to Dallas for the night and drive back. And Matt, at the time, he's probably gotten a little better, a little bit of a narcolept. So we'd be driving back and I would have to be ultra alert because the truck would start veering off and be like, "Dude, I gotta be at school in the morning." Please don't let me die right now. But they trusted Matt. Matt's wonderful and has always been a good brother type friend.
Mark: But I don't know if, this day and age, I would let my daughter go off with any adult man.
Andrew: That's an interesting one.
Leigh: Well, and Matt didn't ever seem like much of an adult, especially at that age. And it wasn't...
Mark: Well, that's even worse.
Leigh: But he just had a very responsible innocence about him. My mom knew his parents.
Andrew: Yeah.
Leigh: He just, he wasn't a typical teenager. He's five years older than me.
Mark: You didn't end up on forensic files, so that's good.
Leigh: No, I don't know how close though. He may have had intentions to murder me a few times. Maybe that's why he was pulling off the road. But no, I don't think so. He was very much a gentleman always. And we know he just was really into the band and motivated, and I think my family knew that if it wasn't music...
Andrew: What would it be that you would get your hands into?
Leigh: What's gonna happen to her?
Andrew: Yeah.
Mark: What's gonna happen to her.
Andrew: I mean, that's a good point though, seeing music as a direction that gave you outlets to express yourself, angst, emotions.
Mark: You could do comedy.
Leigh: Oh. I would've loved to be a comedian, but that has had to- I've sharpened my funny stick over the years on stage being really awkward and dealing with stage fright. That's made it funny.
Mark: Are you still doing concerts?
Leigh: Very much, all the time.
Andrew: Do you still experience stage fright?
Leigh: I do.
Andrew: After all these years?
Leigh: I have. That's why I'm in therapy.
Mark: Are you funny on stage?
Leigh: I believe so.
Mark: Do you take a band?
Leigh: I have been traveling with my husband, but the thing about him is he's a songwriter and he's become Mr. Big Britches. And it only happened in the last year and a half, and all of a sudden, he's Mr. "I write with Tom Douglas every week." So that hurt my feelings 'cause I thought Tom and I had something.
Andrew: And you've probably written with Tom before, haven't you?
Leigh: Twice. And it's like, she's just writing for herself. We're not writing any Miranda Lambert cuts.
But Steven, he's an amazing songwriter, and now he's starting to do artist stuff and he's incredible, and I don't wanna get in the way of that. So I'm gonna have to take someone else out. And I've got a guy that travels with Over the Rhine, and they're really busy, but when they're not busy, I'm gonna steal him.
Mark: Now, is he a guitar player?
Leigh: Oh, he's amazing.
Mark: So you just take a guitar player?
Leigh: Just me and a guitar player.
Andrew: Your voice.
Leigh: Yeah. I would love it to be. And so, and that's also helped me hone the humor craft a little bit and the banter between songs, and I do get the comment a lot like "I feel like I just got a comedy show and music and I cried, all in one ticket." And I was like, that's right. So when I don't hear that, I feel like I didn't do a good job.
Mark: It's like a rollercoaster where you take them here, you go up here. I've watched Gaither do it. I've watched other people do it, the masters.
Leigh: Right.
Mark: They'll take you on a ride.
Leigh: It's wonderful.
Andrew: Well, life's a ride, and the more life you experience, the more ride you're gonna offer other people. What did you learn that is now influencing how you raise a teenager?
Leigh: From all that I experienced, I think just how big life is, how big it can be, how much you can do, 'cause I've definitely, I got out of New Braunfels. I mean, I've seen the world and I've seen the kindness of people, and I'm really proud of Henry, that he's interested in languages, because that will open up your world quicker than I think anything else. And maybe it doesn't matter what I would love for him 'cause supposedly he's not mine, he's God’s, which I really, that takes my breath away.
Mark: I love that supposedly.
Leigh: Supposedly.
Mark: I love that.
Leigh: It definitely feels like he's mine, but I really try to like...
Mark: He's on loan. Don't you hate that?
Leigh: But I feel like what I learned is just how big the world can be and not to put people in boxes and just be in awe.
Leigh Nash singing “Kiss Me”
Kiss me, out of the bearded barley
Nightly, beside the green, green grass
Swing, swing, swing the spinning step
You wear those shoes and I will wear that dress
Oh, kiss me, beneath the milky twilight
Lead me out on the moonlit floor
Lift your open hand
Strike up the band and make the fireflies dance
Silver moon's sparkling
So kiss me
Kiss me, down by the broken tree house
Swing me, upon its hanging tire
Bring, bring, bring your flowered hat
We'll take the trail marked on your father's map
Oh, kiss me, beneath the milky twilight
Lead me out on the moonlit floor
Lift your open hand
Strike up the band and make the fireflies dance
Silver moon's sparkling
So kiss me
So kiss me, beneath the milky twilight
Lead me out on the moonlit floor
Lift your open hand
Strike up the band and make the fireflies dance
Silver moon's sparkling
So kiss me
Kiss me
Andrew: There's a mutual friend of ours, Andrew Osenga, and actually, we both listened to his interview with you on his podcast, which is great.
Leigh: I had such a good time talking to him.
Andrew: Yeah. He's such a tender spirit.
Mark: And he's a good interviewer.
Andrew: He is.
Leigh: He is.
Andrew: He doesn't go these places.
Leigh: He did a great job.
Andrew: But y'all were talking about worry, and I remember you said something in the context of raising kids, that that's enough to give you worried tears enough to make the world go around. But you said you were trying to learn not to worry. And worry seems like such an innate part of our humanity.
Leigh: Right.
Andrew: I don't even know what it means to learn not to worry. Like what is that exercise for you?
Leigh: Well, I wrote something on my husband's birthday card just a few days ago, he turned 40, and this is a Buddha quote, and I hope that's okay that I bring that up.
Andrew: Yeah.
Leigh: And I just happened to find it the night before in a book, but it said something and I wish I knew the exact quote, but maybe y'all can look it up later.
Andrew: We have it memorized.
Leigh: We have those abilities though.
Andrew: Did you find it in the Bible?
Leigh: It was a Buddha quote in the Bible. I think it's in Leviticus. But anyway.
But it talks about, and this does have to do with worry, that all the stuff's gonna happen. Loss, pain, passion, loss of passion, tragedy, all of it's gonna happen in your life. It's going to happen. There's nothing you can do, so you may as well take it, like be like the mighty oak and just be like a big tree. And yeah, you suffer it, but you also get to watch it all happen and you get to grow.
Think about a tree. A tree doesn't just stand still, it grows. And there's another- There was a movie that came out a couple years ago. I'll think of the title in a second. This beautiful movie, but there was a quote in it about how the tree bent but it still grew. And I thought that was also so sweet. And I know there's been so many...
Mark: Tree planted by the water, there's a scripture in Psalm about that too.
Leigh: You had to bring it back to the Bible, didn't you?
Mark: Or did I? I did. Of course.
Leigh: But the Bible is, I mean, it is the richest source.
Mark: Oh, absolutely.
Leigh: I mean, I know that God could have just put that Buddha quote down.
Andrew: Sure.
Leigh: And Steven appreciated it. It really meant a lot to him.
Andrew: Well.
Leigh: But does that make any sense?
Andrew: Yes.
Mark: Yes.
Leigh: I would not put a thing past God. And that's what makes me worry.
Mark: Yeah. I don't put anything past him.
Leigh: But I know that the strength, the net underneath, will be there.
Andrew: Yeah.
Leigh: And it's terrifying. And I've seen a lot of stuff.
Mark: So far so good.
Leigh: And he is precious.
Mark: He seems to be.
Leigh: He is. I mean, he's got a lot of rough edges, but who doesn't.
Mark: Three more years and you're done.
Leigh: Don't even start with me.
Andrew: He's in Russia. In three years, he's in Russia.
Mark: So as terrifying as it has been-
Leigh: Yeah. That he'd just leave.
Mark: You don't wanna-
Leigh: He just ran away.
Andrew: He's like, "I'm out of here"
Leigh: Thanks, guys.
Mark: Okay. As terrified- You talked about worry, right?
Leigh: Right.
Mark: So that will continue probably until you pass away?
Leigh: Your heart's outside your body for the rest of your life.
“Your heart’s outside your body for the rest of your life.”
Mark: 'Cause you're the center of this child. But yet you've let go. You've gotta let him go a little at a time, right?
Leigh: Right.
Mark: So how's that going?
Leigh: I always say when you become pregnant, you're not ready to have an infant. You have nine months to become ready to have an infant. So it's the same thing when you're raising a child. You're not ready when they're 10 or 15 to let 'em go, but maybe at 18.
Mark: What would you like that relationship to be like one day? I mean, when it finally is ready, I mean, it's done, when you're done. You'll never be done, but you know what I'm saying?
Andrew: When he's 30.
Leigh: Okay.
Mark: Yeah, what do you see when he is 30?
Leigh: I would just love him to be fulfilled in the way that he is meant to be filled, with whatever that is. Knowledge, wisdom, whatever I was able to impart, I would really love for him to have a healthy relationship, good friendships, healthy boundaries. Yeah. But he's his own man.
I don't know anybody like Henry. I don't know anybody like him.
Andrew: Isn't that cool?
Leigh: So it is cool, and that I'm gonna have to rely on God to let go because I don't know how, in this body, to do it. I don't know how. So Richard Rohr's gonna have to keep writing books.
Andrew: Yeah.
Leigh: And I'm gonna have to keep listening to him in my car.
Mark: Listen to that voice. There's something to that.
Andrew: To Richard Rohr's voice?
Mark: No, listen to the voice of God.
Leigh: Right.
Mark: Get quiet. I'm just literally learning this myself at 61. I've heard about it, but I've never actually done it until recently. And I think there's something to it.
Leigh: What, be quiet?
Mark: Be quiet and listen.
Someone asked Mother Teresa, "When you pray, what do you say?" She said, "Oh, I don't don't say anything. I listen." "Well, what does God say?" "He doesn't say anything. He listens." Now, that is a little odd for me.
Leigh: Isn't that amazing?
Mark: Yeah. But I think so far for me is I get quiet, but he's still talking, or something in my brain is still talking. And let those pictures pass in front of your eyes and say, "Okay, is this what you want me to do today, Lord? Is this thought of you? Is this...." 'Cause He said, "My sheep know my voice," and he said, "Call on me and I'll answer you." And so I'm learning to just literally do that and then be quiet and see what happens.
Andrew: I mean, if I think about my ultimate desire, it's just, like my constant prayer, is God will just not leave me, will just be like my companion. Yeah. I really want companion. Don't we all? That's why we get married, that's why we date, that's why we have best friends, is because we want someone just to be with us, and not ask a lot.
Leigh: Right. Yeah. I'm very moved by this conversation and also by what you both said, and I think I'm just getting to the point of being quiet enough and I love things turning on their end. Does that make sense? Like things you always thought meant one thing and then it flips.
I was singing a song that Matt Slocam, my partner in Sixpence, wrote, called "The Melody of You." And there's another song called "Breathe Your Name," and both of those songs recently, and I need to talk to him about it, but he's not gonna know. I mean, he wrote them.
Mark: Isn't that funny.
Leigh: "The Melody of You" is like a love letter to God, and then "Breathe Your Name," in the same sense, is sort of a love letter to God, or just you're in my head, I can feel you, you're steering everything. And as I've been singing those songs the last few months, it started to turn around, like what if this is also the way God loves us? Like what if that's how God felt about Matt? And maybe part of it's true, maybe not the whole song, but little pieces of it, just break my heart. When I think about- I always thought, okay, well, I was the voice. The lyrics and melody of you are you're the scent of an unfound bloom.
You are the scent of an unfound bloom, a simple tune
I only write variations to a drink that will knock me down on the floor, a key that will unlock the door, where I hear a voice sing familiar things and beckons me weave notes in between.
And I always thought, well, I'm the voice, but no, I think that it's so much deeper and think God, I don't know, he's...
Mark: He wants us to sing harmony with him.
“[God] wants us to sing harmony with him.”
Leigh: Yeah.
Mark: That's what I hear in that lyric.
Leigh: So much.
Mark: He invites us to join the song.
Leigh: Yeah.
Mark: That's beautiful.
Leigh: There's just so many layers to everything in life and what we're willing to look at and what we're willing to meditate on and be quiet enough to actually hear.
Andrew: If we are so layered and we're reflections of God, he must be layered too.
Leigh: Oh yeah.
Andrew: And surely that's not the worst thing in the world.
Leigh: No, that's the mystery that the longer we get, I guess, the pleasure of being here is the more that mystery maybe gets revealed, and it's stunning.
My grandmother is 96, and I just got to spend a month washing her clothes and changing her sheets.
Mark: In New Braunfels?
Leigh: And talking to her. And the last conversation we had-
Yeah, she lives in New Braunfels. She's in an assisted living place.
But I talked to her the night before I left, and she said, "I love you, and I pray for you everyday." And she said, "And all I can say is you're supposed to tell God what you need. Ask him for what he wants for you, and he's supposed to tell you." And that's all she said, that was all. And I have a feeling, I mean, I don't know, she doesn't understand why she's still here. So I'm gonna be at peace that she's at peace whenever she's taken. But it felt like maybe our last conversation. I'm gonna call her in a minute. It doesn't have to be.
Mark: Right.
Andrew: You could have the last one right here on camera.
Mark: Wow.
Leigh: Let's call her right now.
Mark: You are so funny.
Leigh: And just give her permission to die.
Mark: Her mansion is not ready.
Leigh: Oh, and this is fun. This is funny as all get out. Henry and I and she were in a room. My mom was talking to her brother on the phone. So my grandmother is now alive, she's got two kids left, one passed away a few years ago, but they were on the phone, and ma looked over and she goes, "Don't ever get old, honey. Don't ever get old." And I said, "Well, I don't wanna die young. Yeah, I'd kind of like to get old." And she said, "Henry doesn't want you to."
Mark: Henry doesn't want you to, that is hysterical.
Leigh: And I looked at Henry, and he was like-
Andrew: You should go on and lay down, right?
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