Birthing Hope featuring Angie & Todd Smith
Bestselling author Angie Smith digs deep to talk about learning to live and hope again after losing a child. Her husband Todd Smith, of vocal sensation group Selah, adds musical moments.
Transcript
Mark: Dinner Conversations is brought to you by Food for the Hungry, an incredible relief and community development organization serving those with physical and spiritual needs around the world for 50 years this year.
Andrew: Help us as we help our friends at Food for the Hungry save thousands of lives in Ethiopia today by considering a generous gift.
Mark: A gift that will be matched 22 times.
Andrew: Your one-time gift will make an eternal difference. So visit fh.org/dinner to give now.
Mark: Man, we've had so much fun on this season of Dinner Conversations. Can you believe it is our seventh season?
Andrew: It's only four.
Mark: Oh, it's only four? It feels like seven. No, but the conversations. That's why I hope one day we will have a seventh season 'cause I know there'll be that many more conversations, and this was a good one.
Andrew: This was a good one. Todd Smith and Angie Smith. Of course, Angie Smith is a really popular Bible study writer, author, speaker, teacher. But really she came to be known because she began writing a blog after they lost one of their daughters after delivery. And Todd is in the incredible group Selah, which we know them, of course, great people, great music, and he's here to sing. So she's speaking, she's talking with us around the table, and he's adding some melody and verse to the story, and it's a really cool pairing.
Mark: And there's one seat left at the table, and it's yours. So let's join the conversation.
Mark: Pray this time. I wanna hear you-
Andrew: You want me to pray?
Mark: I wanna see if you know how.
Andrew: He never lets me pray, all right. Maybe Angie should.
Lord, thank you for today. Thank you for Angie. Thank you for Todd. Thank you for who they are as people and the stories they have to share. May you translate all our stories for your glory, our good. It's in Jesus' name we pray, amen.
Angie: Amen.
Mark: I'd give that a B.
Andrew: He won't ever, I like to hold hands when you pray, you know.
Mark: Uh-uh.
Andrew: He doesn't wanna touch.
Angie: You don't like that.
Mark: I don't touch.
Angie: Okay.
Mark: Not him, I'd, you know.
Angie: Are you weird about hugs though?
Mark: No, no, no.
Andrew: But he doesn't linger.
Mark: But don't enjoy it too much.
Angie: You know, like I'll kind of, I rest my little head.
Mark: I don't expect anybody's head on my shoulder.
Angie: (laughs) But don't linger. I'm absolutely gonna use that.
Andrew: But I grew up in a family with all brothers, youngest, and my dad, therapist. So very, he's met my parents now. My mom's more kind of straightforward and my dad's real touchy, feely. I mean, he would come lay down on the couch with us and just cuddle us.
Angie: Aw.
Andrew: You know, so.
Mark: I would now. I would do that with a child. I would do that with, you know, I love babies. I love babies. But you, ah...
Angie: You get to a certain age and should learn not to-
Mark: And I like, I love hugging people, but.
Angie: And then letting go.
Andrew: (laughs) Are you affectionate?
Angie: It depends who the person is. Like a Target cashier, no. You know what I mean? It just depends.
Mark: What about Walmart?
Angie: Definitely not. (laughs) Not the Walmart I go to. Not late at night, but no. I think it depends.
Andrew: Yeah, I mean, Todd seems like a bear hugger.
Angie: Yeah, he's pretty- He's huggy. I don't like-
Mark: Well, don't you think artists are more sensitive?
Angie: Yeah, I do.
Mark: I do.
Andrew: To touch?
Mark: Probably.
Angie: What's a to touch?
Andrew: No, I take it- (laughs)
Mark: Like sensitive.
Angie: Oh, I was like, I don't even know about this.
Mark: In the sense that artists-
Andrew: It's how to test someone out.
Mark: You know, are more touchy.
Andrew: (laughs) Yeah.
Mark: So we're here today though.
Andrew: Yes, that's right, to talk about your family.
Angie: Oh my goodness.
Mark: Isn't that good?
Angie: I thought I was gonna have to fake eat.
Mark: You don't, please. Amy Grant barely touched hers, so.
Angie: Well, do you have it still?
Andrew: You know, I was talking to Allie beforehand about, it's been 10 years since y'all really were in the thick of the journey with your daughter, Audrey, who lived a few hours after her birth. And I was talking to Allie, who works with y'all and sayin', you know, you guys are three dimensional people with daughters and a full family and I'm sure plenty of stories to tell. Is this really a story that needs to be retold, or that we should even talk about, or address again, just wanting to be sensitive to that. And she was so, how she talked about it, that this is a continuing part of your whole family story. It's not just about a daughter who's no longer here in this life. It's about your whole family. Do you see it that way when you think about Audrey?
Angie: I do, I think that we- Sorry. I feel like I was supposed to do that earlier. I feel like we, from the very beginning, made it clear that she was part of our family, even when she was in my stomach.
Mark: Now, was she your first child?
Angie: No, she would've been my fourth daughter.
Mark: Okay, okay.
Angie: And now I have another after her, so I have five girls.
Mark: Wow.
Angie: Yeah. But even when we found out that I was pregnant, we made a point of saying to the girls, you know-
There's kind of a story with this bunny that I had wanted from Anthropologie before we found out. And Todd's like, "It's expensive. We're not buyin' it." So we went and found out. And for some reason, we decided to stop at that store again. And the bunny ears were kind of out, so we pulled it. And it had a mark right on its heart, which is one of the conditions Audrey had. And so we brought it to the register, and she's trying to get it off and we're, I'm bawling and we're like, it's not gonna come off, you know?
And she's like, "Do you wanna discount?" I was like, "No." "Do you want another one?" "No, this one's ours." Pay full price.
Mark: Wow.
Angie: So we took it home, and I put a bandaid on it, and that's how we explained to the girls. And so, you know, Audrey Bunny, there's now a children's book. She's a little bunny, sits in my office. And when we- I never talk about this part.
When we buried her, she had her, this little tiny coffin, you know? And Audrey Bunny was sitting on top of it, and without any prompting, my daughter Kate reached over and ripped off the bandaids and just threw them.
Mark: Wow.
Angie: You know, like she doesn't need these anymore.
Mark: She's free now.
Angie: Mm-hmm. And so even when I was pregnant, I gave the girls disposable cameras. And so they have all these pictures of like, here's Audrey at the park. Here's Audrey at the ballet or whatever. You know, it was just my stomach. Ellie, I said, "Where do you wanna take her while we have her?"
Mark: Oh, gosh.
Angie: And of course Ellie is like, totally selflessly, 'cause she'd never been to Disney World. I'm like, "All right."
Mark: That's fantastic.
Andrew: She has to.
Mark: So you knew, take us back to the diagnosis. What happened?
Angie: So I already had three girls. I was 20 weeks pregnant. And we just went in thinking it was the normal, you know, you get your 20-week ultrasound.
Mark: Wasn't your first rodeo. You've done this.
Angie: Yeah, totally. So we just were wondering if it was a girl or boy. I mean, that was the only thing that was on our minds. And we got in there, and I could just, yeah, I could tell. And I had had pretty bad pregnancies.
Mark: You could tell. What do you mean you could tell?
Angie: Well, from the technician. I mean, she was just pale. And from her response, I didn't even say, "Is everything okay?” What I said to her was, "Is she gonna live?" And she was like, "I don't think so. I need to get the doctor."
Mark: Oh my God.
Angie: So it was just, and we had no reason to believe that anything was wrong.
Andrew: Right.
Mark: You had no clue.
Angie: Nothing. No, nothing.
Mark: She was growing normally.
Angie: Yeah, I mean, there was nothing that would.
Mark: So what was it?
Angie: It's really confusing. It's not genetic. It started with her kidneys, and I didn't know all this 'cause I'm not, I didn't pay attention to most of that part of school. But apparently there, you know, the way things work are, because her kidneys weren't working, there wasn't enough amniotic fluid. And that is what helps grow the lungs. So sort of like multiple, any one of the variables would've made her incompatible with life.
But I will say one of the coolest parts of it was, she had, you know, cysts on her kidneys, and they said, "She has these cysts. They'll get worse. She doesn't have a bladder. She doesn't have a stomach. She doesn't have four chambers in her heart." I mean, it just is hitting me like bullets.
And we went back and I had the same technician. We went back a few weeks later and they said, "She'll have more cysts, so just anticipate that." And the same woman is scanning over it. I wish I'd kept the paperwork. They probably still have it. And she goes, "That's weird. Actually, it looks like she has like fewer cysts. I didn't expect that."
And then she like- Oh no, it was a different woman. She scrolls over, and she goes, "Here's her stomach." And I'm like, "But." And she's looking at the paperwork. And she's like, "I don't know." And then she's like, "Bladder. I don't, okay, I don't know." And then she slid, and I saw her eyes open tender, like well, I remember grabbing the bed. And she's like, "She has four chambers in her heart."
So I mean, we didn't ultimately get the miracle that we wanted, but I believe that along the way, there were just reminders that God was like. So we, you know, there are things, mysteries we’re not supposed to see or understand. And that's just this sacred. I don't know.
“There are things, mysteries we’re not supposed to see or understand.”
Mark: And so she was born.
Angie: Yep. We carried her for as long as we could.
Mark: And she lived.
Angie: For two and a half hours.
Andrew: Take me back to that incompatible with life statement, right. So that's gotta be a weird phrase to hear, especially considering our spirituality and our belief in life.
Angie: Right. Mm-hmm.
Andrew: How did that hit you? And was there advices based on that? I mean, what do people do when they have a child in the womb that's incompatible with life?
Angie: Well, I mean, I'm pretty open about this. And I'm, I don't know if I get hate mail about it 'cause my assistant reads it all, so it doesn't even come to me. People write, and I'm like, it's not gonna come to me, so just get your heart out, and.
Mark: I'll never see it.
Angie: I'll never see it. So I don't know if I have ever. Allie's got a secret folder.
But one of the things I say often from stage is, you know, that day and you have, you just, you don't know until you're there.
So I'm in this room, I'm completely in shock. My mother-in-law was supposed to fly out. And she said, "For some reason, I felt like I was supposed to stay." So she was in the waiting room. She came back, we're all in a daze. They bring us right over to a room, I mean within 10 minutes. And they start working out a plan. Like, "Okay, if you want to abort here, here's when the last day is. If you aren't ready, you can wait until this day if you go to this state." And they're saying all this, and we're like.
Mark: They took it for granted that you were going to do that.
Angie: There's no, like incompatible means this won't work. So let's eliminate the problem. There's no point in dragging it out. I mean, that really was the feeling.
And the thing that happened was they really led us to believe that she was in pain. And so, you know, you-
Andrew: That's messing' with your brain.
Angie: You've got these staunch, "I am pro-life." I am. But I have a different empathy because in that moment, I was like, "I don't know how to mother her best." I don't know.
Andrew: If carrying her to term.
Angie: Like I'm hurting her.
Mark: Was she in pain? How did they know she was-
Angie: We got a second opinion the next day, and he said, "Absolutely not, there's no."
Mark: Why would they tell you that? Did they just not know?
Angie: I don't know.
Mark: Or you think it was manipulative?
Angie: I don't know. I mean, I never, we never really talked about it.
Mark: 'Cause what mother wouldn't?
Angie: Right. But it makes that black and white have a little bit of gray that feels, it felt very strange to me. I just had never, you know.
Mark: Wow.
Andrew: Yeah, it makes it a little bit more complex in how to deal with it. I mean, it's at that point what's so interesting, is it's not a, you know, when you throw around phrases like pro-life and stuff, we all go so political with it.
Angie: Yeah.
Andrew: It's so human in that moment.
Angie: Right.
Mark: It's individual.
Andrew: It's your experience.
Angie: Well, it's your story.
Andrew: And the fact that you even had that dilemma in your story, I think is an incredible, I think that makes your story that much more potent.
Mark: So you went the next day to find out that the child did not have any pain.
Angie: That's right.
Mark: And so then your decision was we're gonna play this out.
Angie: Yep, we're just gonna see how it goes.
Mark: And you held her for the last two hours. What happened those last two hours?
Angie: Yeah, I mean, when she was born, we said, "When she's born, if everything you thought you saw is accurate, bring her to me, so that we just can have as much time."
Mark: Now was she on anything to help her breathe?
Angie: No, because when she was born and you know, I had said, "Bring her to me," when she was born and we had all these nurses, they brought her over to a table. And I could see them, and I'm like, "He's doing it. We're about to see a miracle. He's doing it." And they're all scrambling. And so, you know, we're just kind of waiting.
And then like, I will never forget it. I could sketch which person, I just saw them take their stethoscopes off and kind of back away from the table. And I, "All right, we're not gonna get to keep her."
So they brought her over then. And I don't remember it, but apparently I just, I kept saying to her, "It's okay. You don't have to stay. It's okay." And I don't have any recollection of it, but.
Mark: Wow!
Angie: So just strange things.
So then they, you know, they put you there, and then they're wheeling you back. Well, it's a normal floor, a maternity floor. So I'm holding a baby, passing rooms with all these moms who have just had babies. It is just like-
Mark: Surreal.
Angie: So surreal, yeah.
Food for the Hungry Sponsorship Message
Mark: You can help save thousands of lives by giving a generous gift to Food for the Hungry today.
Andrew: In the rural Dera district of Ethiopia, families are experiencing high death rates in children under five due to preventable water-related diseases. They simply don't have access to clean water sources or the infrastructure to practice good health and hygiene.
Mark: Until now. We're talking latrines, Andrew. Your gift today will provide families in the Dera district with clean water, health and hygiene training, hand washing stations, and lifesaving latrines. And to add to the impact, your gift will be matched 22 times, 22 times.
Andrew: It’s a wonderful opportunity, Mark. Food for the Hungry is already laying the groundwork now to provide a safe place to live for hundreds of thousands of vulnerable children and their families in Ethiopia. I think of Jesus's own words in the Gospels where he says, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself." The people of Ethiopia, Mark, they matter to God. And so they matter to us too. Will you help us let them know they are important to God and to their neighbors across the ocean? That's us.
Mark: Give generously today at fh.org/dinner. We're so excited that you'll be giving that we wanna give something to you. We have several add-ons, we call them, where we will be maybe making a special phone call to a friend of yours, a video.
Andrew: It's a little video, that's right, as shoutout videos for your friend's birthday or for an anniversary, or maybe like a Zoom conversation with just you, Mark, and me, or even a Zoom party with you and some of your friends. All these are just a simple way to say thank you for the life-saving gift that you're giving to Food for the Hungry, for our friends in Ethiopia, at fh.org/dinner.
Todd Smith singing “Lord, I Trust You”
It may not seem I have what it will take
I fear that in the face of trial I'll break
Any trouble's just a day away
But Lord, I trust You
The best, the worst of day are yet to come
Be glorified regardless of the cost
Be magnified, whether joy or loss
Lord, I trust You
Lord, You are life inside the fire
Lord, You are the grace that rises higher
Oh, there will never be a day
That You are not with me
Oh Lord, I trust You
I believe but help my unbelief
Help me go wherever You will lead
Do with me whatever You would please
Lord, I trust You
Lord, You are life inside the fire
Lord, You are the grace that rises higher
Oh, there will never be a day
That You are not with me
Oh Lord, I trust You
I can't find the strength to pray
It all seems lost, and it's too late, oh
I can't fear what comes my way
Then find me faithful in that day, oh
'Cause the only hope I have is
You will be enough
Lord, You are life inside the fire
Lord, You are the grace that rises higher
Oh, there will never be a day
That You are not with me
Oh Lord, I trust You
Oh Lord, I trust You
Mark: I don't want- I guess I'm curious. Was she able to breathe for two hours?
Angie: She was, yeah. She breathed for two hours. And I had sort of explained to my girls, you know, "She'll stop breathing, but when that happens, it's not scary. It means she's in heaven. And it's almost like what we see is like a baby doll. So like, don't be scared, it's okay."
Mark: But they were there too?
Angie: Oh yeah, they, so they were on the bed. Everyone was like- They all held her. Cousins, we had people come, and she-
Mark: So she was loved while she was here.
Angie: She's so loved. And she, I mean, that's all like, she knew love in the face of Jesus, that's what she knew.
But in that moment, I had said to the nurse, "When she passes, just let me know, but don't make it obvious," because I didn't want the girls to be scared. So we have it on video. This sweet nurse comes over, and puts the stethoscope and I'm holding her, and the girls are all around me. And she listens, and she takes her stethoscope down. And I just remember she took Audrey's dress, and brought it down and smoothed it, just this sort of like respectful. And she looked at me and she just went. And so I turned to the camera and I just said, (whispers) "She's gone," to Todd.
But then, I looked at the girls and I said, "Hey girls, do you remember how mommy told you that? That's what's happening? So she's there, but look." And Abby goes, "Can I, can I still play like this little piggy on her toes?"
Andrew: Can I do what?
Angie: Play this little piggy on her toes. I was like, "Of course, yeah." Of course, you're trying to navigate all these people and ages, and.
Andrew: Have you seen that change their, like in your daughters as they've gotten older now? Do you think that kinda like, that's a very unique experience for children, much less you being adults.
Mark: Yes, it sure is.
Angie: Sure.
Andrew: To have an experience of being in the room when someone passes over-
Mark: I've never been in the room.
Angie: I haven't either. Other than that, never.
Andrew: Do you think that shaped some of their idea about death? You know, that's such a big thing for a kid.
Angie: Totally. What's interesting to me is in the moment it did. I remember leaving the funeral because I just didn't- They had buried her. I just didn't. And let me back up.
My sister-in-law was singing over her while she's being buried, holding her newborn son, Luke. Our pregnancies had crossed over.
Mark: Oh!
Andrew: Wow.
Angie: And he died the next month of SIDS.
Mark: No, no, no.
Angie: Yes. Yes. And so it wasn't just her. It was just like this, what is happening, you know?
So I think in the moment, they were so panicked. And I'm trying to figure out at one point, I don't wanna hear the dirt. That for some reason, was like, I don't wanna hear that. So I'm trying to pull the kids away, and they're pulling back. And I finally, we got in the car, and Abby said, "I don't want it to rain on her.” So in my mind, I'm thinking, I don't wanna hear that. And she's like, I'd be comforted by this. There was a lot of that in the moment.
Honestly now, I don't know that they remember very much of it. So I think it did shape something that they carry with them.
Mark: And it was how long ago?
Angie: They were like, I can't do math. Todd, how old are they, five. Five and three.
Andrew: 15 minus 10.
Angie: I'm like, I remember the month. (laughs)
Mark: Are you scared to have the next child?
Angie: Totally, yeah. But I just wanted to get past that appointment, you know? Like when something-
Andrew: That 20 week?
Angie: Yeah, that was the mark.
Mark: That appointment, that one.
Andrew: So there's some relief after that.
Angie: Yeah.
Andrew: I mean, did that factor into y'all wanting to have more children?
Angie: Oh yeah.
Andrew: Were you like, I can't do that again.
Angie: Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.
Andrew: That's a big hurdle.
Mark: You think you'd have had this last child had she made it?
Angie: I don't think so. No, I don't think so. Four was a lot. Five feels like a lot.
Mark: So that last one is kind of in my position. My mother lost the baby before me. And if that child had lived, I'd have missed my window of opportunity.
Angie: I'm so glad you didn't.
Mark: Do you understand what I'm saying?
Angie: So who's above that? Is that the oldest? Do you have older siblings?
Mark: I have an older brother, younger sister. But there was one between me and my brother, and then she tried to lose me, but I wouldn't have it. About seven months into the pregnancy her water broke with me.
Angie: No!
Mark: Yep, it did. I'm sorry, three months in the pregnancy 'cause she had to lay down for seven months. And I was on the inside of her naval holdin' on for dear life.
But no, but seriously, and so.
Andrew: Aren't we glad he did?
Mark: Huh?
Andrew: I said aren't we glad you did?
Angie: We are. We're glad.
Mark: Seriously, it's a weird kind of position that puts in that kid when you think, okay, I'm thankful to that older sibling that is in heaven, who I'll meet one day, I believe. But I'm kinda glad they didn't make it.
Angie: Well, and you know what? I always have to go back to the fact that, from the beginning of time, that was always what it was going to be. You know, sometimes that comforts me. But just like it didn't take Him by surprise. 'Cause I got ticked! I mean, I'd scream at God.
Mark: You'd what?
Angie: I'd scream at God.
Andrew: While you were still pregnant? Like after you found out-
Angie: Yeah, or after.
Mark: You were upset. And you know what I love about God? He can take it.
Angie: That's what I think I learned. He's not intimidated by my emotions. It's not like I go to Him mad and He's shaking on the throne.
Mark: And it doesn't surprise Him.
Andrew: But you had to learn it, and you probably had to learn it while people are throwing trite phrases at you.
Mark: They say the stupidest things.
Angie: They sure do, mm-hmm, they sure do.
Mark: But they mean well, right?
Angie: They do.
Andrew: But that doesn't make it easy.
Angie: But then it's hard to know how to-
Mark: What's the best thing a person can do? What is the best-
Andrew: Hide?
Mark: Wait, if you've never been through it.
Angie: What'd you say?
Mark: I'm not asking you.
Angie: Did you say hide?
Mark: No, if you have a friend who goes- I believe I know what the best thing is to do, but I wanna hear you tell me what you think it is. I think, well, go ahead.
Angie: No, go ahead.
Mark: I would say just be there. Keep your mouth shut, which is very hard for me.
Angie: Well, but with someone like you that they would feel safe with, they would probably start talking, and then you would follow their lead.
Mark: Like Mark said this morning, mirror.
Angie: Yeah.
Mark: Mirror them. I know you're hurting. But I know, I think 'cause I can't say I know what you're going through. That is the worst thing I think you can say to someone.
Andrew: And it's not true.
Mark: 'Cause if you've not been through it.
Angie: No.
Andrew: And not even if you haven't been through it, there are women who have lost children after they've been born, who were alive for hours to days, whatever. They still did not have your experience 'cause they didn't have that husband, and they didn't have these other children, and they didn't live here. So really when we say that, it's completely inaccurate.
Mark: So everybody's experience is unique.
Angie: But I think we have enough to at least-
Andrew: Share.
Angie: Yeah, I mean, to at least have the empathy for someone and know there were pieces of it that are familiar or-
Mark: Have you had the opportunity, like Paul said, to comfort that which we've been comforted? Have you had women come into your life that have been through this that you've been able to?
Angie: Yeah, I have. And I say it a lot when I'm teaching. I talk about it and I have, because here's the thing. And I don't know how it was in your family, but typically a generation above me, a generation above that, women didn't talk about this at all.
I mean, I meet so many women who say, "This is the first time I've ever even talked about it. My husband put me in a wheelchair. We wheeled out. We never spoke of it again."
Andrew: Wow.
Angie: It was just that, you know, that was just the way it was. So that to me is like a real, it's a really beautiful thing when you have people who finally are able to.
Your mom told you?
Mark: Oh yes.
Angie: That's amazing.
Mark: They must've missed that generation. Almost the day I was born, she said, "I gave you to God before you were born." 'Cause she thought she was gonna lose me, so she reminded me my whole life, which I'm thankful for 'cause I felt like I was chosen by God before I- 'Cause you believe everything your parents tell you. Right? Up until a point. Until you're 13, you believe everything.
Angie: Just a line in the sand. I agree.
Andrew: (laughs) So two of yours are over it.
Angie: You're a liar.
Mark: Well, I've heard that. But Mama said that, and I believed it. And so I'm thankful for it. But yeah, she told me, she talked.
So your parents, your mother never talked, would talk about this kinda thing?
Angie: Well, no, I mean, not typically. When I meet women who are maybe in their 50s, 60s.
Mark: You mean they have lost a child, the husband puts 'em in a wheelchair, they wheel out the door and never mention it, don't even have a funeral for the baby?
Angie: No, no.
Mark: What do they do with the baby?
Angie: They just don't see it.
Andrew: Leave it in the hospital.
Angie: I mean, it's like a-
Mark: It goes to some unmarked grave?
Angie: Yeah. Who knows?
Andrew: So they do go in hiding. These are women who are coming out of hiding.
Angie: Essentially, they've had to.
Andrew: Releasing this part of their life.
Angie: Right.
Andrew: And there is an element in our society today. I mean, social media, et cetera, et cetera. There is an oversharing element that can be a part of our culture today. Have you ever felt like you've had to ride that line of like, this is an important story to tell because people need to be able to identify. But this part, I mean, even being here today and talking about it, this part's for me and for Todd and for our family.
Angie: Yeah, there are parts that I won't, that I don't talk about that were just a sacred, you know.
Mark: Can you share one of those?
Angie: Absolutely.
Andrew: And look into that camera. (laughs)
Angie: Started when I was seven. I had this nightmare.
Mark: Well, it is- I'm thankful that we don't all have to go through everything everybody else goes through to be able to help and comfort, you know?
“I’m thankful that we don’t all have to go through everything everybody else goes through to be able to help and comfort.”
What would you say, what was the best? Give me an example of someone who did it right. Do you remember anyone who really did it right? That you say, man, they brought this, they did this, they said this. What happened? Tell me that story.
Angie: There were several people. But there was one moment in particular that I will never forget because the problem is, everyone is saying, well-meaning, "God just needed another angel in heaven."
Mark: Oh, I hate that one.
Angie: That's wow!
Andrew: Not our angel.
Mark: How about your kid?
Angie: Yeah. Right?
Or Satan took your baby, this wasn't God. (imitates crying) Someone brought a casserole. I was like, took the casserole, I was like, "Get out before I get struck by lightning!"
Mark: Oh my God.
Angie: There are a couple of other ones like that. Oh, what's the other one? Oh, God'll never give you more than you can handle. That's not in the Bible at all. That's not in the Bible. Everything's more than you can handle. That's why we have God.
So there were just these things that were like (imitates explosion). I don't know how to deal with that. (laughs)
“Everything’s more than you can handle. That’s why we have God.”
Mark: That was a line for the ages, right there.
Andrew: Would you like to repeat that?
Angie: It's true!
Andrew: That one you can take to that camera. (laughs)
Mark: That is brilliant.
Angie: It's true though. I mean, people say that I'm like, that is literally not in the Bible.
Mark: There is a scripture that says-
Angie: There is, but it's talking in the context of being tempted by something. And it's saying there's never a time that God will give you something that's, you know-
Andrew: Point in your direction.
Angie: Evil, that you don't have a way to get out of. I mean, it has nothing to do with that. It's a, I mean-
Andrew: But not life's, you can handle life.
Angie: I mean, you can embroider it on a pillow, but it's still a lie. I mean, people, they love that phrase.
So what do you say though? I mean, it's hard.
Mark: I got a song on my new record that says that. Now I'm gonna have to go take that off.
Andrew: Embroider it on a pillow?
Mark: No, but-
Andrew: I'm like, what?
Mark: (indistinct) hearin' about it more than I can bear. I wish you wouldn't put on me more than I can bear, but sometimes it feels like I'm already there. You have heard that?
Andrew: Yeah. I'm sure I have.
Angie: I don't think that says the same thing.
Mark: Okay, so let's go back to this. What did the person do right? You were gonna tell us.
Angie: Yeah, it's a great question. There were a couple, but one was Todd's brother. He came from Detroit. And of course everyone's saying the things and they're trying. They're also pulling back 'cause they don't know what the line is. So they pull back instead of ask. You know, it's like, (grunts) no one wants to say her name. People love it when you say a baby's name who's gone, a child, like they want to know.
But Todd's brother came in town for the funeral, and I was coming down the stairs. I had the dress on that I was wearing to her funeral. And he was standing at the bottom of the stairs, the bottom of the stairs, he goes, "Angie, this sucks!" And I was like, "Yes, thank you." Yeah, call it like it is.
Mark: Absolutely.
Angie: So to me that was, that's one that's always stood out as just being a relief.
Andrew: I almost think that statement creates more communion with each other and with God than any other platitude you can think of.
Mark: But don't you think God thinks it sucks?
Angie: Yeah, I do. I do.
Andrew: It's not His design, is it? I mean, death is not His design for life.
“Death is not His design for life.”
Angie: No. And I get asked that question a lot too. And I try to make my opinion clear. No. Do I believe He wanted it? Do I believe He caused it? No. Do I believe that if it happened to me it was somehow sifted through His hands? Yes. You know, and nothing happens that, there's not something that happens and He's like, "Whoa, I didn't want that to happen!"
Mark: That reminds me of something an old preacher said one time, B.R. Lakin. When I was a kid, he said, "You are in Christ, and Jesus is in God, right? And so for Satan to get to you, he's gonna have to get through both of them. And by that time, he'll be saved too."
Angie: (laughs) Oh my gosh, that's great. (laughs)
Mark: So I agree with you.
Angie: I love that.
Andrew: Yeah, that's in Ephesians.
Mark: Nothing happens that isn't sifted through His hands. I believe it. I really believe that.
Angie: But I think people are almost comforted by saying, "This was Satan." You know?
Andrew: It is potentially for them.
Angie: Because they can't be.
Mark: Why would you give him that much credit?
Angie: I think it's cause you don't wanna think that God could do something or be involved in something that hard.
Mark: Or allow it. Well, he does, sorry.
Angie: I know. But in that position, it's hard to try and navigate.
Mark: There's only one good answer that I've ever heard. And it is this one preacher who, and I'll get into this real fast and get out, 'cause we don't wanna go here.
Angie: No, I love it. I've been talking the whole time. You talk, I'm gonna eat.
Mark: About how God is really not in control. That God gave up control when He allowed men to have freewill. And that He will be. The songwriter had it right. The kingdoms of this world will become the kingdoms of our God.
Angie: Mm-hmm.
Mark: But they are not now. They're principalities and powers of the air. Now I'm just throwing out this line.
Angie: Wait, he was saying God doesn't have control?
Andrew: That He gave up control for the sake of-
Mark: Because, first of all, you can't be in true communion and love if you're forcing power. You gotta lay down power for love to work. Even for God, He had to lay down His power. Now I don't believe any of this. But I'm just sharing it.
Andrew: But what if, yeah, what if-
Mark: Okay, and then the other side of the coin is God is in control. And He does allow-
Angie: You should've had this conversation with Amy. Isn't she (laughs) the one who sings that song?
Andrew: "God Is In Control"?
Angie: Yeah. Who sings that?
Andrew: (laughs) No, that's not.
Angie: Who is it?
Andrew: Oh, come on someone.
God us in control, control
Celeste: Twila Paris!
Mark: Who, who?
Andrew: Twila Paris.
Mark: Well, I don't know. All I know is this. I mean, I believe, I believe He's in control. But I do have a problem with understanding if you are in control, I mean, your child, that's worse enough, but allow a baby to live and then it's abused. See, to me, I think I have grace. I mean, I am such a gracious person when it comes to the theology. I'm not always gracious personally, but I'm gracious. I mean, I say love everybody. Let everybody in. 'Cause that way I'm sure I'll get in too.
Angie: Just covering your bases. Yeah.
Mark: I mean, let the blood cover everybody. What's the problem?
Andrew: It's not up to me anyway.
Mark: You know, I'll sweep it under the blood, or sweep it under the rug. You gotta sweep it somewhere. I say sweep it under the blood, and get it done, but.
My point was. Where was I going?
Andrew: I really don't know by now.
Mark: But it was really good.
Andrew: Oh, control, control because-
Mark: If He is in control, then why does He let a father abuse, sexually abuse, his child? I would thump them on the head so fast they would split hell wide open, and I would turn up the temperature because I have no patience-
Angie: It's a great visual.
Mark: With anybody who would abuse a child. I mean, that to me, I don't have grace for that, and I'm workin' on it.
Andrew: The heavens, I totally agree. You talk about the vile of the vile or whatever. But it's all our categories. Under heaven, under this kingdom we categorize it, and segment it, or under this kingdom, right? Under the kingdom of heaven, Kingdom of God, I am no different than that father. I do believe that. I have not chosen to-
Mark: I do believe that too, but I mean, as far as, okay, when you compare my sin to God, Lord, it's like, it's big.
Angie: Tell us more.
Mark: Let's don't compare it to the hymn; let's compare it to God. We all fall short compared to God. Right? So it's like, you know, if I wanna jump and reach the moon, I can reach about six feet if I jump high. But you know, one of those basketball players can jump 10 feet. But we're still-
Andrew: I think you can reach six feet.
Mark: 880,000 miles from the moon. And my point is, it don't matter how high you can jump, you're still too far from the moon to touch it. And God's-
Angie: Yeah, above it all.
Mark: So all of our sin is hideous, but some have bigger consequences.
Angie: Sure, now that's a different, yeah.
Andrew: Totally, but then that goes into but if you go back into God and control, and your family, this was not obviously, at least in my perspective, this wasn't a consequence of someone, direct consequence of, someone's sin. Of course I'm sure-
Angie: That's tricky too. Because in scripture, there is a story where David, you know, and-
Mark: David, what?
Angie: Well, he has an affair.
Mark: Yeah.
Angie: And specifically, it says that that baby died because of. And so a lot of people-
Mark: Because of the sin?
Angie: Yeah.
Mark: But hold on. Do you know what happened next?
Angie: Uh, huh.
Mark: Go ahead and tell me.
Angie: Well. (laughs)
Mark: The baby died.
Angie: Jesus, what?
No, exactly, Solomon.
Mark: Okay, but he gets up, cleans himself and says, "That baby can't come to me, but I will go to him."
Now, my mama used that to believe that babies go to heaven. She would argue with our Catholic neighbors about that. 'Cause he got up, washed himself, quit mourning, and he said- But what did you learn from that?
Angie: No, I just thought, I always just say "Jesus" if I don't know the answer. I feel like there's a good chance. (laughs) So I said Jesus.
Visit Dinner-Conversations.com for DVDs, CDs, and more!
Mark: Did you know that at dinner-conversations.com, we have a store. We have been around long enough to produce products.
Andrew: That you want.
Mark: You want this. A Dinner Conversations mug to hold your eight ounces of coffee in the morning, or less. And then one if you wanna look at us. See how intellectual I look with my glasses.
Andrew: You look like you're judging me.
Mark: Well, I am. It gives me that intellectual look.
Andrew: We also have DVDs full of all of our episodes and a bunch of bonus content you can't find anywhere else. We've got this Season One DVD with all kinds of guests, like Sandi Patty and Chonda Pierce and Point of Grace. And we've got this Season Two DVD set. I mean, these are tons of disks, Kathie Lee Gifford, Montell Jordan, Scott Hamilton, Amy Grant. And you know what else we have? We have the Songs from the Set CD where we sing a little bit together, but also, you'll hear a lot of songs from people like Russ Taff and The Isaacs, some of our very favorites. You can find all of that at dinner-conversations.com.
The Abide Bible Sponsorship Message
Mark: The Bible is the foundation of our theology. We would not know of Jesus if it weren't for the Bible. We wouldn't know about grace. We wouldn't know about how God cares for us. And there is a new Bible out called the Abide Bible. You know how Jesus said, if you abide in me as I abide in my father, and we abide in each other, and it's just a continual feed off each other. And what I like about this Bible is it's asking us to go deeper.
Andrew: Yeah, it's taking an approach to the Bible from being just simply informational to really being invitational. So there's a lot of prompts in this Bible to journal alongside Scriptures. It gives you opportunity to pray certain Scriptures at different seasons of your life, to meditate on the Scripture. There's beautiful artwork in here that's really cool cause it's not just like some kind of Sunday school artwork. They're using like da Vinci and beautiful pieces of classic art to really just get us to imagine, to be able to use all of our senses as we enter into Scripture, so that we really step into the story of Scripture, not just see it as words on a page but as part of a living, breathing active part of our lives. And you know what? I asked my brother one time, who's a pastor, I said, "Why is the Bible so important?" And he said exactly what you said a second ago, because it is the greatest written revelation of who God is. And so it gives us the opportunity to know God but also to be a part of God's story. That's the Abide Bible.
Mark: So go to abidebible.com to get your copy today.
Todd Smith singing “Great Is Thy Faithfulness”
Todd: Mark and Andrew, thank you so much for having us. As you know, I've been in Selah for 20 years, and we got started doing hymns. That's, I mean, one of the very first things we did was we sang at a youth concert and sang "It Is Well." And I remember thinking this was the worst decision we ever made, to sing hymns for a bunch of teenagers. And this 16-year-old kid came up to Allan, who plays in our group, and he said, "Man, I love that song, that 'It Is Well' song. Did you guys write that?" And Allan just showed him how, back when we had hymnals, you know, it was in the hymnal book.
But this is another great one. It just talks about the faithfulness of God. It's called "Great Is Thy Faithfulness."
Great is Thy faithfulness, O God my Father
There is no shadow of turning with Thee
Thou changes not, Thy compassion's, they fail not
As Thou hast been, Thou forever will be
Great is Thy faithfulness
Great is Thy faithfulness
Morning by morning new mercies I see
All I have needed Thy hand hath provided
Great is Thy faithfulness, Lord, unto me
Summer and winter, springtime and harvest
Sun, moon and stars in their courses above
Join with all nature in manifold witness
To Thy great faithfulness, mercy and love
Great is Thy faithfulness
Great is Thy faithfulness
Morning by morning new mercies I see
All I have needed Thy hand hath provided
Great is Thy faithfulness, Lord, unto me
Andrew: I think God's control is so beyond our comprehension of what control means.
Angie: Yep.
Andrew: Our context of control is manipulative, needing a means to an end. We don't understand. It's that sovereign control, right? It's the idea that control of, like I'm just, I want what is right and good and control.
Angie: Right.
Andrew: I think, you know. I'm just workin' this out while I'm talkin' about it. I just think it's so beyond our-
Mark: God's control?
Andrew: Our comprehension.
Angie: Oh, absolutely.
Mark: But I've still got questions.
Andrew: Well, of course. As a Bible teacher, that's what I think.
Angie: Jesus.
Andrew: She's a Bible teacher.
Angie: Just say Jesus.
Mark: Okay, tell me somethin'. You're a Bible teacher, let's talk about that for a minute. Can we change the subject?
Andrew: It's always good to know your guests before you come.
Mark: No, I've gotta go to one.
Angie: No, it's fine. He's like where have, where have you performed? I was like, "At Women of Faith with you, Mark."
Mark: Well, I know that, but I didn't hear you. Did I?
Angie: You did. (laughs) You complimented me very highly afterward though. So thank you.
Mark: I've lost my mind.
Angie: It's all right. You were very funny.
Mark: My mother has dementia, and I think I got it.
Angie: She does? Does she really?
Mark: Who are you?
Angie: Aw!
Mark: I'm kidding. (laughs) She's dead. She doesn't have it now.
Angie: That was a, that was a turn.
Mark: That was a turn.
Angie: That was a plot twist.
Mark: Because my brain, I knew it, but I thought we'd met.
Angie: So, yeah. Conferences.
Mark: What are you speaking about now? What's on your heart? What's God teaching you now?
Andrew: (laughs) I'm good with that.
Mark: Can we go with that?
Andrew: Yeah.
Mark: I love that kind of thing.
Andrew: I'm great with it.
Mark: Is that a tough one?
Angie: No, I-
Andrew: Have you not revealed it yet?
Mark: 'Cause I hate that question when I get asked.
Angie: Yeah, I have something that I'm gonna be teaching it at, and I haven't officially got it yet, but.
Mark: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, you're thinkin' through somethin'.
Angie: I gotta work it out.
Mark: Oh, you don't want it to get out. Of something that-
Andrew: It's not time yet.
Angie: I don't know when this airs.
Andrew: Oh, this will air like three years probably. (laughs)
Angie: It's after February?
Andrew: Mm-hmm, yeah.
Mark: Let's talk about it.
Andrew: But don't say something-
Mark: I wanna hear somethin' you're thinkin' about or thinkin' through.
Angie: This is something that I'm thinking through, okay.
Andrew: After February, yes.
Angie: So here's something I'm thinking through, is I think, I mean, I'm thinking about what draws other people to us as Christians. It's too long of a story, but what's your goal and what's your strategy to get there? And so I start thinking about abortion clinics. And if someone were to say to you, "Picture a Christian there," you would immediately have an image in your mind either of someone holding a sign and telling people they're going to hell. Which I haven't seen a pie chart, but I'm thinking that's like 0% effective. There's no one walking going, "Tell me more about the living water." Like that's not happening. And so we're all doing it. Maybe there are people there who are kind, who are praying, so I'm not saying it's all that.
My question is, why aren't we backdoor Christians? Why aren't we on the other side when they come out saying, "Here's some water. Let me pray for you. I don't know your story. I don't know exactly what happened in that building, but I know this, Jesus loves you absolutely no less than He did when you walked in."
That's the gospel to me. And I just think if Jesus was here, that's where He'd be. Obviously, He'd be everywhere, but He's the one who says, "I do know your story. I know everything you've done there. And I'm here to comfort you. And I love you no less because of it." That to me is the radical message of the gospel I think we just miss sometimes as Christians.
We have our rules, and once you haven't fit in our category of what's right, it's sort of like- Do you know what I mean?
Andrew: Yeah.
Angie: And so the other side to me is just, it's something that I've, and there's a lot more to that. But that's the gist of it, me just challenging myself.
Andrew: Backdoor Jesus.
Angie: Yeah, I mean to be, 'cause who does that? No one stands at the back door of an abortion clinic.
Mark: I never even thought about it.
Angie: It's done by then.
Andrew: And our rules actually put us in another religion, to me, because the gospel is a no-strings-attached love. It's unconditional. That is completely different than any, if we wanna just go the religion route, that's the difference.
Angie: Yeah.
Andrew: Grace is the incomprehensible thing, not only for us but for people in other religions who've never even heard hints of it. Like when we were with Rabbi whoever, and he's like, "Will you explain grace to me?"
Angie: Have you ever read What's So Amazing About Grace by Philip Yancey?
Mark: Oh yeah.
Angie: (gasps) That book changed my walk.
Andrew: You wanna not like it, you know, 'cause it's like Philip Yancey and I (growls). It's like loving Max Lucado. I mean, I love him.
Mark: What is wrong with you?
Andrew: No, I'm just saying-
Angie: 'Cause he's like such an icon.
Mark: You shouldn't even be able to loosen either one of their shoe laces.
I have cried more over those Max Lucado books. I'm glad my mother's dead sometimes. If she heard this, she would be flippin'.
Angie: (laughs) Again. I think she probably can hear it.
Mark: I know, but she's different now.
Andrew: Now that's an interesting conversation. (laughs)
Mark: I know, we're surrounded by a cloud of witnesses. Do you think that could be that?
Andrew: So you think they can tap in when they want to, like a TV channel?
Angie: I don't know, but-
Mark: Do you think we're their Thursday night reality TV show?
Angie: Wouldn't that be awesome? I'm the housewife, I mean, yeah. Let's do this!
Mark: You always wanted to be on the Housewives, now you are. You know, I don't know. Don't you think, I mean, let's play around with this, 'cause you know, none of us have seen.
Angie: I know, 'cause we can't end at a bad place, 'cause we don't.
Andrew: We're already there.
Mark: Do you think there are streets of gold and walls of jasper literally, or I mean, can we even know?
Andrew: I say no because I don't wanna, my focus, that's only for me personally. 'Cause I'm like, I don't want to be somewhere, I want to be with God.
Mark: Jesus.
Andrew: Just to be with God. Who cares about the, the rest is superfluous.
Angie: Yeah.
Mark: Well, no, but it's. Listen, He's the one temptin' us. Eye hath not seen, ear hath not heard, neither has it entered into the hearts of men what God has prepared for those who love Him. And I think He said that, 'cause hey, y'all really. You're gonna like this. Come on, love me a little. Maybe, maybe not.
Angie: You're gonna like this.
Andrew: That's your next Bible study title.
Angie: I think that's a new hashtag for spreading the gospel. You're gonna like this.
Mark: See, I'm so old, I don't even know what a hashtag is.
Angie: Already decorated.
Mark: God's got ya.
No, I think I'm maybe tired. Oh, that light just went out. Maybe God didn't like this.
Angie: Oh, He's like-
Andrew: Oh, it's happening. Here we are. Cut! (laughs)
Angie: Someone in the cloud was like (claps). The end, change the channel. Can't watch that anymore.
Mark: I just think it's gonna be cool.
And when you got people over there, like you got that baby. I got Mama, I got nieces, and I got a nephew. You know, we've all got people, right? We've all got people over there. And I think it's gonna be fantastic.
Andrew: And to let the imagination run wild, I think that's cool.
Angie: Well, and you know why? Because for me, and Todd and I had this conversation about let's just skip- As far as Genesis, was is it actually seven days or was it? I have my own opinions about that. At the end of the day, it's not a salvation issue.
Mark: No, it's not.
Angie: You know, like talking about what heaven looks like. It's not like we get up there and He's like, "It's gold, I told you," you drop through the, you know. I love thinkin' about those things.
Mark: I believe Jesus' only, Jesus is the only dividing line for me. I mean, you could believe whatever you wanna believe on everything else. But I mean,
Andrew: Yeah, me too.
Mark: Jesus is the only way to God. I believe there are many ways to Jesus, but there's only one way to God.
Andrew: It's for me, and this'll take you into cheesy territory. There's this when The Shack came out, right? I refuse to read everything that's popular, even though it's probably popular for a reason, right.
Angie: I'm so that way.
Andrew: It's like, wow, that's gonna be terrible or cheesy, you know?
Mark: I loved it.
Andrew: My mom got it from a friend, and she said, "I don't wanna read this if it's, you know, crappy, so will you read it for me?" Now I do like assignments, so I was like, sure.
Angie: Absolutely.
Andrew: You know what I mean?
Angie: I could live at- I want a highlighter.
Andrew: You want my opinion on this?
Angie: Yes, I want it.
Andrew: Sure.
So I read it, and when I read that portion about Jesus, who was portrayed by the Hispanic guy, woodworker guy, went out onto the dock with this father who's been grieving, you know, and he lays down next to him shoulder to shoulder and just looks up and stares at the stars with him. That's what I want. I just want that friend. You know what I mean?
That there is no, there's no longer a separation between people. We are so tightly knit and wound. I mean, every thought that that man laying beside him ever knew, every grief, every pain, didn't even have to say it. Knows it. That's what I want.
Mark: Well, good luck! Are we done?
Angie: It's gonna be good. It's gonna be good.
Mark: You're gonna love heaven.
Mark: Thank you for watching Dinner Conversations. Don't forget to subscribe, and then ring that bell and get all notifications.
Andrew: And don't forget to like us or dislike us. Don't do that. Leave comments, talk about what's resonating in your life from these conversations, and join us next time for Dinner Conversations with--
Mark: Mark Lowry.
Andrew: And Andrew Greer.
Mark: Turning the light on.
Andrew: One question at a time.
Mark: Dinner Conversations is brought to you by Food for the Hungry, an incredible relief and community development organization, serving those with physical and spiritual needs around the world for 50 years this year.
Andrew: Help us as we help our friends at Food for the Hungry save thousands of lives and Ethiopia today by considering a generous gift.
Mark: A gift that will be matched 22 times.
Andrew: Your one-time gift will make an eternal difference. So visit fh.org/dinner to give now.